What did I do wrong? Or did I?

I don't know Ray, obviously, and this could be completely me talking out of my ass...

But based on what you've said about him, I would say that his behaving like a little boy is perfectly understandable. It sounds like he never had anyone to take care of him. He was bullied and/or abused beginning at a very young age, and was used by others. I can't remember whether you've said much about his family when he was growing up, but if he didn't have help and support from his parents, that could contribute to his current ways of interacting.

If he didn't have a loving, nurturing, supportive childhood, but perceives you as loving and supportive, it isn't surprising that he would be turning to you to try to fulfill those needs. That doesn't mean he's going about it in an appropriate way, or that you have to respond to it the way he wants you to, but I would say he's acting like a "little boy" because somewhere inside him *is* a little boy who wasn't taken care of properly and needs someone to do it.
 
Re (from DebbieandRay):
"Ray does try to get me to mother him and always tell him what to do, but I am not his mother. I am his wife."

Polyamorists generally recommend stating your wants and needs to your spouse or partner in thorough, specific terms. I think it is an outdated fantasy to suppose that romantic bonds give my partner the ability to read my mind, or the tendency to think like I do, or to see things like I do. If I want my partner to get in tune with me, I need to give her specific instructions on how to do so. I don't think of it as mothering, I think of it as communicating. It is a relatively new idea in our old-fashioned world, but it's an idea that can save ailing relationships, and greatly improve good relationships.

In the instance where Ray complained about the catsup bottle being empty, I would suggest telling him, "Go take care of it." For something like that he probably wouldn't need step-by-step instructions; adults know how to get catsup bottles refilled (and how to ask the staff to do it). But sex (among other things) is a very complicated process, and people vary greatly on what makes sex great for them. So it's not like taking care of an empty catsup bottle. Sex calls for specific instructions, as do many relationship interactions between intimate spouses or partners.

You don't need to be a helicopter parent and swoop down and rescue Ray every time he gets himself into a jam. But if you want him to change his behavior in some way, your best bet is to just come out and tell him -- without being deprecating in how you deliver your message. In time, he may become more independent and better at knowing what to do without being told. But it will take some patience, for as KC43 said, Ray's dysfunctions are probably rooted deep in his past.
 
When I said, "Too often I feel that Ray makes love to me only because I ask him to. I know that if I never asked him to, he never would." in my post, you asked, "Have you talked to him about that? If so, what was his response?"

We have talked about this, at length. When Ray's ex asked him, many years ago, "Why can't you love me without having to have sex with me?" Ray decided that day that sex was not loving. And to show his love, he never wanted sex again. He even saw other men as lesser than him if they did have sexual desires. Ray actually takes pride in not wanting or asking for sex.

Obviously the ex and his childhood did some horrible things to him. He spent 27 years being trained not to ask for sex, breaking that habit and mindset will take time and a conscious effort from him and likely some help from your therapist to change that. He's probably lying in bed many nights going "I hope she asks for sex tonight". It sounds like he enjoys it when you do initiate, so just keep doing so, until he can bring himself to speak up for what he wants.

Remember: Ask for what you need and want, keep it positive and don't criticize him when he doesn't read your mind. You are both in the process of unlearning some bad habits. I actually see great hope for the two of you.
 
I've been lurking reading this and your Blog and I wouldn't comment on your blog but I will on this thread only because it's making me very uncomfortable reading it.

To the members of the forum, your opinion is highly regarded, but I feel that if the characters in this story were reversed and we had a man speaking of his wife in the derogatory way that Debbie is speaking of Ray, the level of outrage would be volcanic. It is borderline abusive and highly disrespectful. Say for example, a husband was on here talking about how small his wife's breasts were and how he thought they made her less of a woman and how he got off on telling her that and making her feel completely inadequate, we would all be offended on her behalf. Even if she got off on the cuckhold thing, it's still unsettling to read. Why the gender double standard?

It's not a surprise that the list of issues is racking up as you write.

I don't mean this to be a personal attack on you, but this situation and your descriptions is very unsettling and I'm very surprised nobody else has expressed similar distaste. If you're such an avid cock worshipper, you would appreciate there is a heart and soul attached to that cock and speaking of him like this certainly isn't helping your cause.
 
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I've been lurking reading this and your Blog and I wouldn't comment on your blog but I will on this thread only because it's making me very uncomfortable reading it.

To the members of the forum, your opinion is highly regarded, but I feel that if the characters in this story were reversed and we had a man speaking of his wife in the derogatory way that Debbie is speaking of Ray, the level of outrage would be volcanic. It is borderline abusive and highly disrespectful. Say for example, a husband was on here talking about how small his wife's breasts were and how he thought they made her less of a woman and how he got off on telling her that and making her feel completely inadequate, we would all be offended on her behalf. Even if she got off on the cuckhold thing, it's still unsettling to read. Why the gender double standard?

It's not a surprise that the list of issues is racking up as you write.

I don't mean this to be a personal attack on you, but this situation and your descriptions is very unsettling and I'm very surprised nobody else has expressed similar distaste. If you're such an avid cock worshipper, you would appreciate there is a heart and soul attached to that cock and speaking of him like this certainly isn't helping your cause.


newtoday, I was bullied and emotionally abused during childhood and early adulthood. It has been a big help to me to have a partner who is understanding and who supports my growth and health. I would find behavior like Debbie's nightmarishly triggering, were it coming from a partner.

But one result of having been through a couple decades of gaslighting is that I don't always trust that my reading of a situation is accurate. And I'm not Ray.

I think the suggestions of counseling, which I've seen in both non-blog threads, are gentle ways of saying "Something about the dynamic between you two is troubling, and I think you should make a habit of talking with a trained professional for a while."

Accusing someone of abuse isn't generally effective. Suggesting counseling is. And someone with proper training can tell the difference between a situation where one partner is inadvertently tripping over another's sore spots and a situation in which one partner is leveraging the other's mental health problems or abuse history to his or her own advantage.
 
newtoday, I was bullied and emotionally abused during childhood and early adulthood. It has been a big help to me to have a partner who is understanding and who supports my growth and health. I would find behavior like Debbie's nightmarishly triggering, were it coming from a partner.

But one result of having been through a couple decades of gaslighting is that I don't always trust that my reading of a situation is accurate. And I'm not Ray.

Appreciate the feedback however you missed my point(s). I was referring to a blatant gender double standard.

Consider it this way. Excel Spreadsheet Find - Replace function.
Find Ray - Replace with Debbie
Find Debbie - Replace with Ray
Find Small Cock - Replace with small breasts or ugly pussy or manly hands.

Apologies for the explicit comments but considering the other posts on here... You get the picture.

My point is that if the OP gender was reversed and we had a man on here callously referring to his female partner in such blatant disregard , there would be many cries of outrage. "How dare you speak of her like that?" It's happened, men here have been stoned to death and burned at the stake for saying much less about their women than what's being said here. But because it's being said about a man, it makes it ok?

Secondly, I didn't stay it was abusive, I said it could be considered borderline abusive. You can sugar coat it all you want.....

Accusing someone of abuse isn't generally effective. Suggesting counseling is. And someone with proper training can tell the difference between a situation where one partner is inadvertently tripping over another's sore spots and a situation in which one partner is leveraging the other's mental health problems or abuse history to his or her own advantage.

Coming from a background of watching my sister live through such emotional, mental and physical abuse, I might agree with you, it's not affective to suggest to an abuser that they are being abusive however it doesn't change what it really is, does it? And if anything, sugar coating it just makes it seem a little less horrific, which is doing nobody any favours.

I think of this in terms of personal relationships. If this were my friend (or my sister or brother) telling me the things that were being said about them here, I would be very concerned for their emotional and mental safety. I wouldn't even say it was bullying.

And I beg to differ here. There is nothing inadvertent about what's being said here. Every word is constructed with purpose and intention and not an accidental "ooops, I didn't realize I hurt your feelings." One could argue that it is being used to her advantage to pursue the lifestyle that she wants. The man has low self esteem. Can this cuckolding even truly be considered as informed, ethical consent? Pause for thought. Considering that the OP stated this herself:

We both have self esteem issues, and we both know that. We both grew up being told we weren't good enough, or weren't like other girls or guys. We have tried to build each other up. I admit that I have not done a great job of building my husband's self esteem, but I have tried. He hears me, but doesn't always listen, or vice-versa.

And.....

Ray and I both had messed up childhoods, as well as crappy marriages. And both me and Ray often do not feel we deserve each others love. It isn't a one way street.

I'd consider it more than 'bullying'. For the record, bullying is a form of abuse. If it were MY friend that I was reading this about, my first advice would be to remove themselves from this very dysfunctional relationship and get themselves some help before they can consider fixing this 'relationship'.

And I'm not the only one who believes this to be true. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure I understand how he is supposed to feel better and stronger as a person when the central figure in his life keeps putting him down?
 
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newtoday, I thought you were asking why people hadn't replied to what you'd observed.

I was telling you why I *personally* hadn't replied to what you'd observed, not being able to speak for anyone else.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.
 
Re: my part in the blatant gender double standard ... anyone who is familiar with my style of posting will characterize me as Mr. Switzerland ... many would say, to a fault. I don't believe I would post much (if any) differently if the genders were reversed. I have (more than once) advised Debbie to mind her tongue when speaking to Ray. And I think professional counseling is super important in this situation and have said so. I haven't suggested a divorce, but that's mostly because I think milder measures can be tried first, and might work.

Maybe the problem is that certain people aren't speaking up who would speak up given the right provocation? but then if we can eliminate that double standard, I'd prefer to eliminate it by being more diplomatic towards both genders, rather than making sure bullies of both genders get a proper beating. I don't believe in teaching bad people a lesson, I believe in teaching all people by example. If I want Debbie to respect Ray more, then I need to show Debbie what respect looks like. Which is what I've been trying to do. Call me a wuss for acting like Mr. Rogers; the point is I try to be a consistent wuss.

I can't speak for the others. Just trying to explain my own position (and behavior).
 
Re: my part in the blatant gender double standard ... anyone who is familiar with my style of posting will characterize me as Mr. Switzerland ... many would say, to a fault. I don't believe I would post much (if any) differently if the genders were reversed. I have (more than once) advised Debbie to mind her tongue when speaking to Ray. And I think professional counseling is super important in this situation and have said so. I haven't suggested a divorce, but that's mostly because I think milder measures can be tried first, and might work.

Maybe the problem is that certain people aren't speaking up who would speak up given the right provocation? but then if we can eliminate that double standard, I'd prefer to eliminate it by being more diplomatic towards both genders, rather than making sure bullies of both genders get a proper beating. I don't believe in teaching bad people a lesson, I believe in teaching all people by example. If I want Debbie to respect Ray more, then I need to show Debbie what respect looks like. Which is what I've been trying to do. Call me a wuss for acting like Mr. Rogers; the point is I try to be a consistent wuss.

I can't speak for the others. Just trying to explain my own position (and behavior).

I wasn't referring to you, Kevin, or anyone in particular, I'm just surprised that it hasn't come up by anyone at all yet. Again, many times men on here have been slapped for saying so much less about their female partners, comparing or degrading. That's all. :)
 
In her other non-blog thread, titled something along the lines of "I wish my husband were more like my new boyfriend," it was said by 3 or 4 people, multiple times, that she sounds abusive and that her attitude towards Ray is abusive. It was also brought up that even her compliments could be considered borderline abusive more often than not.

And every single one of them was never addressed by the original poster. So it doesn't surprise me that no one has mentioned it on this thread, why bother when the poster just continues posting the same type of thing and ignores your comments?
 
In her other non-blog thread, titled something along the lines of "I wish my husband were more like my new boyfriend," it was said by 3 or 4 people, multiple times, that she sounds abusive and that her attitude towards Ray is abusive. It was also brought up that even her compliments could be considered borderline abusive more often than not.

And every single one of them was never addressed by the original poster. So it doesn't surprise me that no one has mentioned it on this thread, why bother when the poster just continues posting the same type of thing and ignores your comments?

My point wasn't even the defined abusive nature of this OP, that's obvious, but rather reading this that it hasn't come up that if the roles were reversed and Debbie was a MAN saying such stuff about a woman, the outrage would be far worse.

I'm not arguing semantics with anyone.. I'm pointing out something obvious to me, that had this been a thread about such comments being made by a man about a woman, these threads would be 56 pages long of outrage instead of 3 people stating it and 1 seconding that motion. That's all.

I agree, the OP is not acknowledging them, nor do I expect her to do it. She knows what she is doing is unethical but if she cared, she'd stop so lack of response is not surprising.

Carry on.......
 
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Wow what a great point .....guys with small dicks aren't a protected class. Which is sad they might need it the most.

The fact is if you go back you can find several other incidences in which this has occurred. An example was when Matt ( username ) proclaiming he was done with poly ....had enough ......all of a sudden he's being unfair to the children. ...never happened before never happened since.
There's been several others over the years .....it might take a while to remember those old usernames but I can give a few....pm me if you want the ones I have so far :D ....OMG I almost forgot it happened to me when I first arrived here ....I stated I had 3 simple " rules " ....the word rules pissed off some of the fine folks here .....and then one rule was surrounded an old convertible I spent a few yrs restoring....what a jerk I was to deny the love birds the opportunity to cruise around in that car.


And Debbie I too have a quick question about something you posted on your blog about the Sunday morning " goin to church gang bang " Isn't the point of having all black men the added element of racism to add to the humiliation or is that a separate fetish. The whole thing has a racist overtones ....rich white lady .....it's a little distasteful to me but hey if everyone is happy what the hell :D:D

One last question is it hard lining up a Sunday morning gang bang you know everyone's got stuff to do on the weekends :D
 
My point wasn't even the defined abusive nature of this OP, that's obvious, but rather reading this that it hasn't come up that if the roles were reversed and Debbie was a MAN saying such stuff about a woman, the outrage would be far worse.

I completely agree that there is a gendered double standard going on here. As a feminist, I know there is a gender bias that women's abuse of men is overlooked/minimized/rationalized more often than men's abuse of women. In actuality, the rates of verbal aggression by men and women are quite similar. Add in the whole cuckhold aspect, and the lines are blurred between what is sexual and what is "borderline abusive."

Given my own extreme discomfort reading Debbie's criticisms of Ray, I felt the need to encourage Debbie to reflect on how her behavior is similar to the signs of emotional abuse and stress the importance of counseling, on the other non-blog thread. I am glad to know they are seeing a professional who is better equipped to assess the specifics of their relationship than I am.
 
I completely agree that there is a gendered double standard going on here. As a feminist, I know there is a gender bias that women's abuse of men is overlooked/minimized/rationalized more often than men's abuse of women. In actuality, the rates of verbal aggression by men and women are quite similar. Add in the whole cuckhold aspect, and the lines are blurred between what is sexual and what is "borderline abusive."

Given my own extreme discomfort reading Debbie's criticisms of Ray, I felt the need to encourage Debbie to reflect on how her behavior is similar to the signs of emotional abuse and stress the importance of counseling, on the other non-blog thread. I am glad to know they are seeing a professional who is better equipped to assess the specifics of their relationship than I am.

Amen to everything you just said. :)
 
I don't know Ray, obviously, and this could be completely me talking out of my ass...

But based on what you've said about him, I would say that his behaving like a little boy is perfectly understandable. It sounds like he never had anyone to take care of him. He was bullied and/or abused beginning at a very young age, and was used by others. I can't remember whether you've said much about his family when he was growing up, but if he didn't have help and support from his parents, that could contribute to his current ways of interacting.

If he didn't have a loving, nurturing, supportive childhood, but perceives you as loving and supportive, it isn't surprising that he would be turning to you to try to fulfill those needs. That doesn't mean he's going about it in an appropriate way, or that you have to respond to it the way he wants you to, but I would say he's acting like a "little boy" because somewhere inside him *is* a little boy who wasn't taken care of properly and needs someone to do it.

Ray grew up an only child. He grew up in Inglewood, California, in the 60s and 70s. Ray was the white boy in his neighborhood. And he grew up living behind a topless bar, a nude wrestling place, a massage parlor, an adult arcade and a free clinic.

There was a vacant lot next to Ray's house where he and his mother had watched cars drive through and drop of bodies in the middle of the night, and by the time Ray was 10 years old, he had found three different bodies in dumpsters.

Ray told me that even in grade school boys had to go to the bathroom in groups for their safety. Ray's grade school and junior high school were connected, and most of the kids he grew up with he had to see every day through out grade school and junior high school.

I have talked with Ray's mom about his growing up, a lot. She and Ray's dad both worked while Ray was in school, but his mom was always home when he got home. More often than not Ray was chased home.

Ray's mom told me a long time ago that Ray spent a lot of time playing outside alone, in their back yard. And she didn't realize, until he was in junior high, how much time Ray had spent hanging around the massage parlor and the adult arcade. The only thing that separated Ray's back yard and the massage parlor and the adult arcade was a four foot chain link fence.

Ray's mom said that she was very strict with Ray when he grew up, and where ever she went he had to go, too. But when they were home, Ray was allowed to play in their back yard, alone, a lot. Ray's mom said that all through grade school and junior high Ray liked having boys stay the night at their house. Since most of the people in their neighborhood were black, so were the boys who spent the night with Ray.

Ray's mom said that Ray had adult magazines that she would find in his room pretty often. She knew that these were magazines that the adult arcade had thrown out. She felt it was just youthful interest. Ray's mom said that Ray never really had many friends, but a lot of boys did spend the night at their house with Ray. And that she had let Ray spend the night at other boy's houses quite often.

Ray's mom said that although Ray didn't have many actual friends, that he was well liked in their neighborhood. Ray's mom admitted that when Ray was younger that he enjoyed wearing her nylons. He would tell her that they just felt good. She didn't see the harm and had even bought him pairs that fit him. Ray's mom says that Ray has always been a bit feminine, and because he was an only child, she pampered him a lot, probably more than she should have.

Ray's mom has told me, many times, that Ray was sexual at a very young age, or at least had an interest from an early age. She admitted that she knew that Ray had watched men get blow jobs in the back of the establishments they lived behind, and there wasn't much she could do about that. Ray's mom also admitted that she used to find wash cloths in Ray's bed, after Ray had boys stay the night with him, that were hard and that she had to wash Ray's sheets more often than she washed hers and her husband's.

Ray's mom told me that because Ray's skin was so sensetive, that he more often than not wore silk panties instead of boy's underwear. She knew it wasn't really his sensetive skin, and that Ray just liked the panties, so she didn't say anything about it and just bought them for him.

Ray has always bragged about his years as a figure Skater. Ray's mom confirmed this by saying that Ray developed an interest in skating when he was around eleven years old. Ray's mom said that she was at the rink most days at 4:AM and then took Ray to school at 9:AM and then took him back to the rink at 3:30 four days a weeks. Ray's mom, Ann, said that Ray was a natural. Ann said that even Ray's ballet teacher said that he was a natural, and the fact that Ray had double-jointed hips was a big plus for Ray.

Ray was competitive as far as skating went, but never showed interest in other sports like foot ball or basket ball. Ray always had a feminine frame, and he liked skating. Ray also enjoyed being able to spend a lot of time with girls, who he seemed to have a lot in common with.

Ann said that one of Ray's only friends, that she could remember him having, was a boy named Ronnie. Ann said that Ronnie may have only been 12 at the time when he and Ray met, but it was obvious that Ronnie was gay. And Ray and Ronnie were the best of friends for almost a year, until Ronnie and his family moved out of state.

Ann told me, a long time ago, that Ray's first steady was a boy that lived down the street from them. Ray and this other boy, Michael, were boyfriends until Ray's sophmore year in high school. Ann said that Ray had actually come out of the closet when he was thirteen, but Ray's father told him that he had to decide if he was going to date boys or girls and that he couldn't date both. Ray told his father that he liked both boys and girls, and that he didn't really know what he liked most because he had never been with a girl.

Ann told me that Ray and his father had a good relationship, but his father was an old farm boy and seeing his son as gay wasn't in the cards for him. Ray continued to date Michael, but he also dated a girl he had grown up with named Tigra. Ray and Tigra never had sex, but they did date as friends.

Ann told me that Michael went to the rink with them most days and stayed the night at their house several nights a week, as well. Ann told me that she knew that Ray and Michael were intimate with each other, and that they were really boyfriend and boyfriend. She said she never bothered Ray and Michael when they were in Ray's room alone. She felt that she should show Ray the same respect she would expect from him.

Ann told me that she wasn't sure why Ray went gay like he did when he was younger, but it didn't surprise her when he did. Ann said that Ray had always been the nurturing type, and that he had always been very in touch with his inner self. Ann said that when Ray was younger, although a lot of boys called him names and he also got beat up a lot, that he never lost who he was, deep inside.

I asked Ann why she and her husband never got Ray boxing lessons or something, so that he wouldn't get beat up like he did. Ann told me that she and her husband had told Ray never to fight, because it would lower him to their level. Ann said that she regretted teaching Ray that thought. Ann sighed when she talked about this and told me that she knew that Ray got beat up a lot, but had expected him to one day just have enough and go off and prove to the other boys that he could fight. But that never happened.

When Michael and his mother moved, Ray and Michael had to break up. After Michael had moved away, Ray started dating a girl he knew from school. Ray dated this girl, Deedra, until he graduated and went into the Air Force. Ann said that she didn't think that Ray and Deedra were ever intimate, but they did hold hands. Ann admitted that there had been several times, when Ray was dating Deedra, that she had seen Deedra with other boys, and they seemed to be more like boyfriend and girlfriend than Deedra did when she was with Ray.

So, that's pretty much Ray's upbringing.
 
I know that some of the things, maybe a lot of things, I say to Ray are abusive. And I am hurt as well as soon as I say them. I tend to go off on Ray a lot, and the thing is that I love him so much.

We had a situation last night about him ruining dinner, then Ray over loading the washing machine. I accused Ray of doing what he did just to piss me off. He, of course, shut down and is asleep on the couch, where he's been all night.

I know I am in the wrong, and I want me and Ray to be able to work through our problems. That is why we are going to counseling.
 
I grew up with a mother who hated the fact that my bio mother was crazy and had been put into a mental institution and she had to raise me. My mother, that I grew up with, is my mother's sister. I grew up being abused by my "mother" and my siblings. I knew nothing but abuse for most of my growing up years, and I still have no real relationship with the woman who raised me.

Last night I told Ray that I wanted him and I to play together, and I got no response. Then Ray tried to make mashed potatoes and instead made potato soup, then Ray way over loaded the washer. I lost it. I tried to be loving. I wanted Ray and I to be sexual. And I also told Ray that he was going to go to the doctor because he has had a cough for months and he was saying that it was best not to take the time off and to make money instead.

I want Ray to be well so that we can live a long life together. And I want to be able to love him without being critical of him. And I also want to feel loved by him, not just through other men.

Trust me, I know I push Ray away from me by my actions, and it scares me to death. I love Ray. I really do. And I know we both have a lot to work out, especially me.

Ray has given me a better life than I ever imagined I could have. And he is a wonderful man, in many ways. Ray has his faults and I have mine. It is my sincere hope that counseling will help us both and our relationship.

I admit that I can be a real bitch sometimes, and I really have no where else to turn. We are going to counseling Thursday night again, thankfully.

I deserve everything that is being said about me. I admit it. I know I'm not perfect, but I am hoping to some day be a much better person than I have been, especially to Ray.

All of your responses have been helpful. And I appreciate all of you.

Thank You.
 
Debbie, these last few posts of yours give me more hope for you and Ray than anything else you've posted.

Because in those posts, you've taken responsibility. You've acknowledged that your behavior toward Ray is often inappropriate and even abusive. You've stated that you want to change... not because other people are telling you to, but because YOU don't like the way you behave. And that's the key to change: Choosing to do it for YOURSELF first.

You've also given us more detailed insight into *your* past than I think you'd done previously; most of your posts about yourself have been about your sex life, not about your upbringing. Seeing what you say here about how your "mother" and her kids treated you goes a very long way toward explaining--not excusing--your behavior toward Ray. Consciously or not, you're mirroring the way you were treated, and Ray is accepting it because of the way *he* was treated.

Knowing that, if your counselor is aware of it as well, you and Ray can begin to work on correcting those thought patterns that lead to the negative and inappropriate behavior.

Thank you for sharing what you've shared, and kudos to you for acknowledging your responsibility and the abusive nature of some of your behavior. That took a lot of guts.
 
My husband overloads the washer to and it drives me bat shit crazy, BUT I have had to learn to just accept it. He washes, I fold - so I just am extra vigilant to watch for items that might need to be re-washed (especially if they are mine). It's one of those things that really isn't worth fighting about. I can roll my eyes and certain things I make sure to wash myself, otherwise I keep my mouth shut (have the bite marks on my tongue to prove it) - not the hill I want to die on.

Sometimes on days like that, it's just time to pull out the wine and eat potato soup.
 
Hey Deb,

First of all I want to say I'm truly sorry that you were treated abusively as a kid. No child should have to go through that. Every child deserves a mother who loves him/her. Not a mother who resents him/her.

Perhaps you are a little like those poor unfortunate dogs or roosters who are only raised and trained to do dogfighting or cockfighting. All you were ever taught to do was to growl and peck and bark and bite and draw blood. You were conditioned to feel like your own life depended on it. It was a rotten way for the people you trusted to raise you, and it has left you with some habits that will be really hard to break.

Ray seems to have had a strange and mysterious upbringing. One moment he is being beat up and chased home from school, another moment he is having erotic encounters with other boys. I still can't tell how much of his personality is Nature and how much is Nurture, but right now I'm leaning more towards the Nature model. That is, I think he was born with bi/gay/girly traits, and his unusual surroundings simply gave him some opportunities to explore those aspects of himself.

Another thing that has been growing in my mind for awhile, is that I suspect Ray has some BDSM in him; specifically, a submissive personality. In some ways, I think he wants to be Dominated. He probably sees you as his Domme. Or not ... I could be out in left field here. But if my "theory" is at least somewhat correct, it could explain some things. Such as why you feel like you have to babysit him and tell him every little thing to do. That may actually be a source of comfort to him, and who's to say whether that's dysfunctional or just a good old healthy D/s tendency? Where does one draw the line?

Your latest posts have really helped fill in a lot of parts of the picture for me. And, I think that there is much more for me to learn, so keep those posts coming. One new thing I am seeing is that Ray isn't 100% happy and obedient all the time. Sometimes he shuts down or does his own thing. He does seem to have a sort of belief about sex that sex is beneath him, he takes pride in turning sex down, so I don't think he is trying to reject you when he turns down a chance to play with you, he is just trying to aspire to what he sees as a high ideal. And, I'm seeing hints that he may act out at times, especially when he shuts down. That's a passive-aggressive defense mechanism.

I think there is much potential for the folks at Polyamory.com to give you a lot of helpful feedback going forward. And, I think there is much potential for your counselor to help you unravel a lot of mysteries in your relationship. I'd be interested to know how your next visit on Thursday goes, if you're willing to share.

Thank you for being so candid, and for being willing to hear things that are hard to hear. Let's keep talking.

Respects and regards,
Kevin T.
 
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