What should I do? LDR, complicated

[PolyCouple2013]

I am in a LDR relationship that is complicated, but there seem to be glaring issues and concerns about the way things are going and I am not sure as to what is the best course of action.

I met this woman (M) who was going to be in a relationship with me and my ex (L), but things did not work out for my ex in our relationship, so it was just me and M for awhile. Things were going great. We love each other very much, but due to the LDR, she became lonely and wanted to pursue other relationships (poly).

I was fine with this at first. She seemed to care about my feelings, even asking a few times, "Are you sure you are ok?" with her seeking love outside of us.

She eventually found someone, (C), who initially I was very happy that she found. I still am, though it pains me now. What became difficult for me was when she promised I would not become a "secondary," and she would treat me as fairly as she treated him. Sadly, M's actions, intentional or not, did not show the same fairness.

M, C, and I have met in person. I have nothing against C. What pains me is the feeling and the little things that show that M has chosen C as the primary love in her life and I am a secondary, which I do not want.

Examples: when M and C are together, I am to give them "space," but when M and I are together, she still talks with C.

C has been introduced to her family, but when I visit M, I was not even allowed into her home, nor has M told them she is in a relationship with me. Also when I visited, she received a call from a family member while she and I were at lunch, and she told them she was with a "friend."

Things like that not only hurt me greatly, but to me, seem to show that things are not equal in the relationship.

There are a lot more examples of the differences in respect/treatment between C and me from M.

What hurts me the most is I constantly feel that if I would have seen her that week she felt lonely, that we could have been stronger, and M still could have met C later.

When things with M and C were becoming too serious too quickly for me, I tried to talk to M about it, but she did not want to stop seeing C even though the boundaries M and I set were being broken.

I probably should have left her then, but that is another problem I have. I love her too much. She really is every thing I ever wanted in a partner, and I tried to hold onto the relationship M wanted, even though I was unhappy, all because I wanted her to be happy.

I have talked to M about this and she said she needed time to think. Inside I just have the feeling that M will let me go and continue her relationship with C. I never had any problems with C. I just had a problem being forced into type of poly relationship I was not ready for with them, which was not C's fault.

What makes things worse is I was about to be in the final process of moving there, when things just kept getting worse, and M keeps showing me through her actions that I am less than equal in the relationship. I am concerned about moving to be with them, only to have things continue to grow worse, and I just end up in tears on my bathroom floor from all the pain.

Any advice on the situation? I do not know what to do.

 

[Marcus]

What makes things worse is I was about to be in the final process of moving there, when things just kept getting worse, and M keeps showing me through her actions that I am less than equal in the relationship. I am concerned about moving to be with them, only to have things continue to grow worse, and I just end up in tears on my bathroom floor from all the pain.

There are a couple of issues which leap out to me.

1. You are viewing your relationship with M and her other relationships through a competitive lens. The idea that two different couples (M and you, M and her other partner) should be "equal" is unrealistic, and only serves to injure a genuine association.

She lives closer to her other partner; their circumstances are totally different; their personality chemistry and sexual chemistry are totally different. There is no reason that your relationships should look "equal," since they are far from it. Take a look at "compersion" as an alternative to "equal."

The issue would seem to be your expectation of what a romantic relationship is. I suggest moving away from a strict expectation and being a bit more flexible. Forget about titles like "secondary," and just enjoy the time and interaction you get with M when you have the opportunity. Attempts to control each other's interactions with other people is merely going to cause (more) resentment.

2. You are handing over responsibility for your own decisions. M is not forcing you into a relationship structure any more than you are forcing her to stay in one. Your relationship seems to be changing, and it is up to each of you to individually decide what is and is not a healthy association for you.

If not getting what you want from M causes you to cry on the bathroom floor, that is entirely an issue of your own ability to deal with your emotions. This can be a good thing, realizing that you are responsible for your feelings and actions. I suggest reframing how you view your responses to your environment as internal, instead of setting yourself up as a victim.

 

[PolyCouple2013]

There are a couple of issues which leap out to me.

1. You are viewing your relationship with M and her other relationships through a competitive lens. The idea that two different couples (M and you, M and her other partner) should be "equal" is unrealistic, and only serves to injure a genuine association.

She lives closer to her other partner, their circumstances are totally different, their personality chemistry and sexual chemistry are totally different... there is no reason that your relationships should look "equal" since they are far from it. Take a look at "compersion" as an alternative to "equal".

The issue would seem to be your expectation of what a romantic relationship is. I suggest moving away from a strict expectation and being a bit more flexible. Forget about titles like "secondary" and just enjoy the time and interaction you get with her when you have the opportunity. Attempts to control each others interactions with other people is merely going to cause (more) resentment.

I feel I need to further clarify a few points so I can receive the best advice on this.

First, I never said anything about sex being an issue, rather the "equal" was my noticing that there was a lack of global fairness. I know local fairness cannot be done, but global fairness is something that should be present in any relationship. I have seen the scales of the global fairness tip in C's favor more and more. Like the example I gave, where the time M and C spent is expected to have no interruptions by me, but my time with M is not equally respected by both of them.

The "secondary" thing bothers me, as I feel like am not equal in her heart, and her other actions, such as hiding me from family, whereas C was introduced, doesn't help support that I have an "equal" role in her heart and life. It seems like I am being held to a unfair standard in the relationship.

2. You are handing over responsibility for your own decisions. M is not forcing you into a relationship structure any more than you are forcing her to stay in one. Your relationship seems to be changing, and it is up to each of you to individually decide what is and is not a healthy association for you.

If not getting what you want from her causes you to cry on the bathroom floor, that is entirely an issue of your own ability to deal with your emotions. This can be a good thing, realizing that you are responsible for your feelings and actions. I suggest re-framing how you view your responses to your environment as internal instead of setting yourself up as a victim.

I need to reflect on this. However, I am not trying to make myself look like the "victim." I am just trying to explain my situation so that I can have the best advice on how to deal with, handle, or what should be the best action for everyone involved. However, since I can only control what I do, I need help in what the best thing I should do for someone in my situation.

Thank you for the responses thus far.

 

[SlowPoly]

You can only communicate your relationship needs to M, trust her to do what works for her, and accept her preferences for her own life.

You say you "have talked" to M about these things. It sounds as though you don't have a recent statement of verbal intent from her that she wants to treat you as co-primary with C. You say her actions show you to be definitely secondary in her life. Does she still say she wants you to be co-primaries? How does she explain the discrepancies?

Ask her to tell you what she wants, and believe her when she does. Does she want to treat you equally? Would she be willing to change her policy allowing interruptions of your time by C, so that there's parity? Will she be introducing you to family? Then again, if you really don't think you can trust her words, then her actions have spoken for themselves, and you may as well get through the rest of the heartbreak now.

Maybe all of the signs that you're secondary are artifacts of C's being local and your being far away. Maybe.

If moving to be close to them otherwise works with your life plan, and you won't be put out financially or emotionally for having taken that step, then go ahead and move. See if things start to become more "equal," and if it doesn't become a relationship you are happy in, sever those ties and find happiness elsewhere.

Distance, proximity, time, familiarity, and just plain old changing and growing can challenge relationships. Don't cling too hard to what was before, and what might have been, and what was promised. See if you both want to offer something the other one wants. Learn and move on if you don't.

In the general case of moving being a hard thing to do, and people pretty much showing you what they want by how they treat you, I'd say the "Here's why it isn't working for me" talk is in order. But if you think that a better and current understanding between you both (or among you three) might make this a relationship worth sticking around for, then have the talk that goes "I need these things; what do you need?"

 

[sparklepop]

I had read your previous thread and I'm very sorry to hear things seem to be heading downhill.

I truly do understand your upset. Unfortunately, we so often make promises to others that we shouldn't make. None of us really know how we are going to feel 6 months, 12 months, or 6 years from now. None of us know who we are going to meet, how we will change, or what we will want. The only thing we can really promise a partner is to always be honest about how we feel.

Unfortunately, the truth is that feelings and situations can change over time.

I understand how you must be feeling. You feel that if you'd been able to 'get in there' sooner, this might not be happening. In truth, there's no way of knowing whether or not this would be the case. Ultimately, if M does have a strong bond with C, this may have taken the exact same shape anyway.

It is possible that other factors are leading to the issues you raise. You will only know once you talk to M, but since she has told you she needs time to think, this suggests that she is unsure of how she wishes to continue.

In the meantime, I understand that you are seeking advice about how to deal with this situation, if there is still a relationship to deal with once you speak to M.

If I were in your shoes, I'd do one or all of the following:

- Halt plans to move, if possible. Have you got a job offer yet?
- Consider whether you might really need an emotional break, since there was no breathing space between your relationship with your ex-wife and this one with M.
- Consider whether you want to be poly and what kind of poly relationship you really would like.
- Respect M's right to change her mind, end the relationship, consider C her only primary, and to form her own connections.
- Accept that, unfortunately, promises can't control people's feelings, and feelings/wishes/plans can change over time.

There are a couple of other things I'd think about, for this relationship, or for the future.

1. Although you love her, it's useful to look back and remember the broken boundaries that you talk about when she met C. These are never a good thing. In my opinion, they are either a sign that the partner has met someone they are rather wrapped up in (which isn't a good thing if it leads to treating the existing partner poorly); that the relationship model/structure isn't working; or that the person breaking the boundaries has an issue with keeping agreements, communication, respect.

2. I personally have no problem with the primary/secondary model, as long as everyone is happy and on the same page. In your relationship, perhaps it's not realistic to think of each other as primaries right now. In future relationships, it might be better not to agree to being primaries unless you live closer to them, or are able to spend more time with them, or both of you agree to be monogamous for a while so that you can establish that relationship before new ones enter the mix.

If you do end up staying with M, it might be that you both agree to remove labels for a while and let your relationship be what it will be. This might feel upsetting and scary at first, but it might actually allow you to enjoy each other more.

 

[PolyCouple2013]

You say you "have talked" to M about these things. It sounds as though you don't have a recent statement of verbal intent from her that she wants to treat you as co-primary with C. You say her actions show you to be definitely secondary in her life. Does she still say she wants you to be co-primaries? How does she explain the discrepancies?

She says she does, and she used to tell me "You'll never be a secondary," but things change, apparently As for her response to the discrepancies, they have varied from "I didn't mean it," to "I'm trying," and "I'm sorry." I wish there was more to give on that.

Ask her to tell you what she wants, and believe her when she does. Does she want to treat you equally? Would she be willing to change her policy allowing interruptions of your time by C, so that there's parity? Will she be introducing you to family? Then again, if you really don't think you can trust her words, then her actions have spoken for themselves, and you may as well get through the rest of the heartbreak now.

Maybe all of the signs that you're secondary are artifacts of C's being local and your being far away.

This is what I fear, on both accounts. She may not be doing some of these actions intentionally, but others... I don't know. This move will be a huge sacrifice and leap of faith for me, as it will put me in a position where I cannot leave easily if things go bad. The move would hurt financially (not to mention emotionally, moving to an area where I know only M and C).

However I want to trust her, all these things I see scare and hurt me deeply. The other end of the spectrum, as you pointed out, is what if this is all just because of the LDR?

Sadly, we have had the "Here's why it isn't working for me" talks, and things do not seem to improve, which is why I am here asking for third party advice on a very painful and frightening situation.

 

[PolyCouple2013]

If you do end up staying with M, it might be that you both agree to remove labels for a while and let your relationship be what it will be. This might feel upsetting and scary at first, but it might actually allow you to enjoy each other more.

You have posted a lot of great points and advice to think about. Everyone so far has, thank you.

However, can you please elaborate on this part of your post? I am not sure if I am not reading it correctly or what, but I am not following what you mean here.

 

[IndieSolo]

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you posts sound very whiny. You keep saying, "No fair! She treats him like a primary and me like a secondary! I want everything equal! Waaahhh!" As I was reading your posts, I was reminded of how my sister and I would fight over the biggest half of a grillled cheese sandwich, and then the winner would boast, "Mommy loves me more than you because I got the bigger piece!" I am sure this caused my mother a great deal of stress, to try and make sure everything was "even Steven." Likewise, if you keep harping on this with your gf, she'll probably just get tired of hearing it and let go of the relationship with you. The difference between your situation and my grilled cheese situation is that I was 5 years old.

What do you hope to prove by being her so-called primary? Why do you keep comparing? How she treats him, how she refers to him, who she introduces him to, and so on, has nothing to do with you. Just worry about what you need/want, but not in comparison to what he is getting. Why does that matter, anyway? For example, asking her to be fully present with you, and not texting, isn't really a poly issue, it's just good manners.

You agreed to this. No one forced you. Stop throwing a tantrum! She has someone else in her life who, obviously, means a great deal to her. You're going to have to suck it up a little bit. You started out with her when you were with your ex, so you originally wanted polyamory. But now the tables are turned. The poly you two are in has been mostly on her terms, and that doesn't sit well with you. Hmm, I find that rather telling.

 

[PolyCouple2013]

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you posts sound very whiny. You keep saying, "No fair! She treats him like a primary and me like a secondary! I want everything equal! Waaahhh!" As I was reading your posts, I was reminded of how my sister and I would fight over the biggest half of a grilled cheese sandwich, and then the winner would boast, "Mommy loves me more than you because I got the bigger piece!" I am sure this caused my mother a great deal of stress, to try and make sure everything was "even Steven." Likewise, if you keep harping on this with your gf, she'll probably just get tired of hearing it and let go of the relationship with you. The difference between your situation and my grilled cheese situation is that I was 5 years old.

What do you hope to prove by being her so-called primary? Why do you keep comparing? How she treats him, how she refers to him, who she introduces him to, and so on, has nothing to do with you. Just worry about what you need/want, but not in comparison to what he is getting. Why does that matter, anyway? For example, asking her to be fully present with you, and not texting, isn't really a poly issue, it's just good manners.

You agreed to this, no one forced you. Stop throwing a tantrum! She has someone else in her life who, obviously, means a great deal to her - you're going to have to suck it up a little bit. You started out with her when you were with your ex, so you originally wanted polyamory. But now the tables are turned. The poly you two are in has been mostly on her terms, and that doesn't sit well with you. Hmm, I find that rather telling.

Actually when it was just L, M, and me, none of us knew how polyamory would work out, and we were all going very slow. L and I even took steps to help ensure M had an out if she changed her mind, etc.

I don't have that here, sadly. I have no problems with C directly, or with her being with C. My issues are how I am being treated in the relationship. Yes in comparison, on some levels, with C, but it feels like there are double standards.

I don't know what is so "telling," as I think C is a great guy. The only positive point I can think of, if things ended this moment, is that M is happy with C, and he is a really great guy.

 

[Hecate]

Hi, I'm M. I would like advice, as well. I do not want D (PolyCouple2013) to feel like a secondary. I want things to work with us, and I've been trying to think of ways to help the situation. I love D very much, and I don't want to lose him. But I also love C.

Please... help?

As for not focusing, I know that's something I will work to stop, though I thought I was doing a good job of that, only contacting C if D and I wanted a multiplayer game for the three of us, though I may have slipped. I apologize for that. I really want to do better, because I really do care and love them both.

 

[LovingRadiance]

My best advice, Hecate, is to sit down (alone) and consider how well you manage ensuring that what goes for one is available to the other, as well.
I don't mean "I spent 3 days with this partner so I spend 3 days with the other." What I mean is, if you are open to family about one, you are open about both. If you are unavailable during "date time" to anyone but your date, that goes for dates with EITHER partner. If you prioritize a date time a week with one, prioritize a date time a week with the other (this is doable long distance by using phone/internet dates). Etc.

The best way to ensure you aren't treating a partner as if they were secondary, is to ensure that you are prioritizing their needs the same way you would if they were the only partner you had, IMHO.

 

[sparklepop]

You have posted a lot of great points... However, can you please elaborate on this part of your post? I am not sure if I am not reading it correctly, but I am not following what you mean here.

What I meant here was whether you should consider removing the terms 'primary' and 'secondary' from your relationships, and just be in the relationships.

 

[sparklepop]

As for not focusing, I know that's something I will work to stop, though I thought I was doing a good job of that, only contacting C if D and I wanted a multiplayer game for the three of us, though I may have slipped. I apologize for that. I really want to do better because I really do care and love them both.

Hi Hecate,

It's nice to hear that you do want D in your life, just as much as you want C in your life.

May I ask why you referred to him as a friend to someone else, and why haven't you introduced him to your family? Is this because you are not openly polyamorous, and C happens to live near you, so even though you formed a relationship with D first, you've decided to choose C as your 'public' partner?

In terms of what you can do if you really do want both C and D as your primary partners, firstly, I don't believe that two relationships can be the same. Each relationship is unique, and when we try to force everything to be equal, it doesn't work. Relationships simply are what they are. Some couples have more sex than others, some have better conversations, some like to cuddle, some like to have adventures, etc. However, the importance of a person in your life can of course be equal to the importance of another person.

Things that should/can be more balanced:
- If you have a specific date night with C (where D leaves you alone to be together), it would be balanced to also have this with D (where C leaves you alone). If you're often suggesting threeway games when you're having alone time with D, maybe this leaves D feeling that you don't want to just be alone with him sometimes?
- Address the issue with C being known by your family and friends, but D is a secret. Explain to D why that is. Or is D mistaken?
- Are there any other imbalances that D would like to raise, here, or in private with you?

Communicate with each other:
Ask D to tell you what is important to him, how he feels about certain things, what things allow him to understand your love?

You could also take the Five Love Languages test (Google). It sounds like D looks at your actions. If this is the case, this could help you to communicate your love to him better, by understanding when your actions leave him feeling confused.

 

[Inyourendo]

What would I do? I would move on. You can't even go to her home when you visit? How would that change if you move there? Live in the closet? Not for me. I wouldn't sit around taking scraps, I'd move on and find someone who cared enough about me to treat me like I'm important to them. You can do what you want. That's what I'd do.

 

[LovingRadiance]

Firstly, I don't believe that two relationships can be the same. Each relationship is unique and when we try to force everything to be equal, it doesn't work.

Maybe the key is in understanding fully the difference between "equal" and "same".

Relationships can absolutely be equal whilst not being remotely the same at all.
Because having the RIGHT to do something makes you equal-regardless of whether or not you choose to *actually* do it.

 

[GalaGirl]

I could be wrong, but it seems you want these behaviors--

• I want M to be present when we are together, and not contacting C for chit chat. Emergency only. I do them the same courtesy when they are together.
• I want to be introduced to her family as a significant other.
• I don't want to be called "friend." I prefer to be called [...].

Have you asked M if she is willing to do those things so you can stop thinking you are secondary?

And if she does those behaviors, are you actually willing to stop thinking you are secondary? Or will you keep on that way and just pick something else to latch on to as proof of your secondary-ness? M can do something about her behaviors, but only you can do something about your thinking.
Ykwim?

Hang In there,
Galagirl

 

[Hecate]

As for why I haven't introduced D to my family...it's complicated. I live in a rather conservative area of the Midwest (ie. when someone found out I didn't go to church, I got a "I'll pray for you"), and I currently live WITH my parents. Also, my parents had never met D before and I suppose it would've brought up questions I really wasn't ready to answer for them. I know already that my parents aren't exactly supportive of open marriage/relationships ("if you ever get a 'friend'...I don't want to know"). I would love to be able to tell them, and I plan to, but I feel it's something they need to be eased into.

They'd never met D before, given how far away he is. To suddenly bring him over and say "this is my boyfriend - I have two" would not have ended well. Granted, I regret not at least introducing him to them. I am also an only child, so I know my parents are fairly protective.

As for why they know about C, it wasn't for lack of trying. I'm fairly private, and I tried to call him "just a friend" for as long as I could.

Now, when I finally get the chance to move out, this will all change and I'll have more freedom concerning what I feel I can tell them. And I'm not going to hide D forever (that's just rude), but I just need to ease them into it.

I would like to mention that at least 50% of my work colleagues, and 100% of my friends (irl and internet) know that I'm poly, and know about both D and C. It's not like I hide D otherwise. It's only to my family, and mainly because I still have to live with them.


I just want to be clear that I do love D, and want this to work.

 

[sparklepop]

Ooooh, the Midwest. Enough said. Haha.

Seriously though, what you are saying is understandable. Since you live with your parents, I'm not surprised they've eventually had to meet C. It's very positive that you plan to tell them about D eventually, once you've moved out, and that you will be able to do as you please when that time comes.

It's also great that all of your friends know about him. It doesn't sound to me like he's any less important to you; just that you're in a bind until you can move out.

 

[PolyCouple2013]

It seems you want these behaviors-

• I want M to be present when we are together and not contacting C for chit chat. Emergency only. I do them the same courtesy when they are together.
• I want to be introduced to her family as a significant other.
• I don't want to be called "friend." I prefer to be called [...].

Those were just a few of the specific behaviors I noticed that worried and hurt me during the course of my relationship with M since she met C. There have been others, but I thought those would be the best to share with the forum to help explain what has been happening.

Have you asked M if she is willing to do those things so you can stop feeling secondary?

Yes.

I think this thread has helped M with how to go about doing those things, as she and I have been reflecting on all the advice given here thus far.

And if she does those behaviors, are you actually willing to stop thinking you are secondary? Or will you keep on that way, and just pick something else to latch on to as proof of your secondary-ness? M can do something about her behaviors, but only you can do something about your thinking.

I believe so. In the beginning with her and C, I didn't have that feeling. I was happy she was happy, etc. However I think maybe as the NRE between them went into overdrive, that is when a lot of the priority and global fairness in the relationship seemed to always lean towards C. That, plus some of the examples I mentioned, made me felt like I was a secondary in her life. Which is why I created this thread for help and a third-party view from others who may have seen similar or been through similar themselves.

I do not think I would "latch on" to anything else if things were more fair or at least a more equal global fairness was attempted. LDR makes everything more difficult and complicated but I wanted advice in my situation before finalizing a move there, if that was not the best thing to do in my current relationship with M (and C).

If I move there, I won't be able to leave right away, and M and C are my only contacts there, so it is quite a big leap of faith that I am taking for the relationship. What has me scared/worried is my current situation and how I see myself being treated now in an LD relationship. Having been in an LDR once before, I know that they are easier to maintain vs non-LDR, which worries me as to how I will be treated when my relationship with M becomes non-LDR. So again I came here for advice on the situation.

I am trying to work on my thinking (and I have found compersion with some things M and C do) but when things happen such as the examples I mentioned are painful reminders of things that are hurtful/wrong/worrying in the relationship, which affects my thinking/overall outlook of the relationship. Which is again why I am here, which everyone has given good help with so far.

 

[GalaGirl]

I would like to mention that at least 50% of my work colleagues, and 100% of my friends (irl and internet) know that I'm poly and know about both D and C. It's not like I hide D otherwise. It's only to my family, and mainly because I still have to live with them.

Then that is a current limitation you all have to deal with, until such time as M/Hecate can move out of her parents' house.

PolyCouple2013, you can always ask things of M. Then she can tell you if she is willing/able to do it at this time or not.

If the response is currently, "Eventually, I'll tell my family. Just not at this time, while I live under their roof," then you have to determine if you are willing to go with it or not at this time.

I can see where you are not willing to relocate for uncertainty at this time with your polyship, and have to be rebuilding a community, job hunting, learning new geography, etc., on top of that, if you are more comfortable where you are. If an LDR is easier for you to maintain, how about not moving at this time?

Is that a possibility you are willing to consider? Maybe stay put, bide your time, see if M can find a better balance, move out of her parents' home, etc., before adding new changes.

Some things in life just happen. They pop up suddenly. Others we have more control of/say in when they happen. You deciding to move right now or not is one of those things you get to schedule. It's not a "just popped up out of the blue" thing.

Galagirl