Where from here? Let's talk.

[Xftmfz]

So, I'm currently in a semi-open marriage. Wife is okay with swinging when it's on her terms, but I'm more poly at heart. At least I feel that way. At this point, I wish I could meet others who are in the same or similar situation as I am...

I have no desire to leave my wife what-so-ever. I'm not completely miserable with life like it is.

But no matter what I do, there's this hole there where all these other people would be if it wasn't for her possessiveness and jealousy.

So, I'm just wondering if anyone else is out there, kinda locked in a place that's not awful, but not where you want to be. And thus, you can't make too much fuss without guilt, and you can't have what you want because you're in love with someone who believes differently than you?

I need some connection even if it's just texting/chatting/emailing/whatever. Hope everyone's having a great week.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am sorry you struggle.

Correct me if I am wrong but I am hearing this:

• I currently choose to be in an open marriage model I do not want. (swinging)
  
  • If I ask for changes so it can be swinging on her side and polyamory on mine, I feel guilty. (Why guilty? What have you done wrong? Wife is not a mind reader. She can't know what's on your mind without you speaking up.)
  • When I don't ask for changes, I feel trapped.

Since you feel bad either way... isn't it a "better bad" to pick the option that contains hope for future change so you can eventually be at peace? Rather than choose to stay trapped?

Galagirl

 

[Xftmfz]

I am sorry you struggle.

Correct me if I am wrong but I am hearing this:

• I currently choose to be in a marriage where I don't want to be.
  
  • If I ask for changes so it can be swinging on her side and polyamory on mine, I feel guilty. (Why guilty? What have you done wrong? Wife is not a mind reader. She can't know what's on your mind without you speaking.)
  • When I don't ask for changes, I feel trapped.

Since you feel bad either way... isn't it a "better bad" to pick the option that contains hope for future change? Rather than pick the option that is hopeless with you resigned and growing unhappier over time?

Galagirl

I do want to be married to her. My life with her is fine. It's a "slice" of my life that's off...missing...whatever. Or at least that's the best way I know to describe it. We do the whole LS thing and end up with real friends...which is the way I like it. She has sooo many more boundaries. Autonomy is the real need of mine that's unmet more than anything I think?

I feel guilty by design. I struggle with whether or not I should have the beliefs I had. Sad, maybe. True though.

Lol. I'm reading over what I'm writing and it's not making sense. Sorry.

 

[Xftmfz]

(Why guilty? What have you done wrong? Wife is not a mind reader. She can't know what's on your mind without you speaking.)[/COLOR]

Galagirl

I don't even ask for poly. I've asked to just be able to play separately with some of our mutual friends who also do that. Thus far she's given me permission, but taken it away...twice. I didn't act on it...trying to give it time to sink in. Kinda glad I didn't...since she obviously was freaking out the whole time even though NOTAFUCKINGTHING was happening. Makes me want to bang my had up against a wall.

 

[GalaGirl]

Sorry. We were cross posting.

Autonomy is the real need of mine that's unmet more than anything,

Yup.

I feel guilty by design. I struggle with whether or not I should have the beliefs I had.

You believe what you believe. There's nothing wrong with having a preference for polyamory and wanting more connection than recreational sex.

I don't even ask for poly.

Why not? What stops you from being up front, honest and authentic with your wife? If this is what you need at minimum...

I need some connection even if it's just texting/chatting/emailing/whatever.

... why aren't you asking? That's not asking for sex.

I've asked to just be able to play separately with some of our mutual friends who also do that. Thus far she's given me permission, but taken it away...twice. I didn't act on it...trying to give it time to sink in. Kinda glad I didn't...since she obviously was freaking out the whole time even though NOTAFUCKINGTHING was happening. Makes me want to bang my had up against a wall.

At this time sex wigs her out. Could this sheet help you guys talk about where the lines are drawn? Chatting and hugs ok, but kink is a no? Something else?

http://openingup.net/resources/free-downloads-from-opening-up/


Are you able to trust your wife with her Word? Or does she say one thing and then renege? Is she willing to see a counselor? Do some reading? Is this a soft limit that could change over time? Or a hard limit that will NEVER ever change?

Your spouse is presumably the closest person to you. If you do not speak up about important things with your spouse because she wigs out if you try to be authentic, honest, open you? What's that saying about the health of the marriage?

• You aren't holding up your end of the stick -- you are not showing up to your marriage conversations and participating as fully as you could.
• She's creating an environment that discourages honest and open conversation.

Lean into it and have the conversations you need to be having. Not away.

Galagirl

 

[FallenAngelina]

I feel guilty by design. I struggle with whether or not I should have the beliefs I had. Sad, maybe. True though.

What is "true" is just what we choose to believe is true. You're all about guilt, so you have a life in which your guilt is center stage and your wife is playing her part in a perfectly cooperative way. Beliefs, truths, what is "by design" - all just thoughts that we keep choosing again and again and again. If you want your life to change, change your thoughts. This has nothing to do with your wife and everything to do with the role in which you keep casting her. You're only as trapped as you imagine you are or need yourself to be.

 

[Xftmfz]

What is "true" is just what we choose to believe is true. You're all about guilt, so you have a life in which your guilt is center stage and your wife is playing her part in a perfectly cooperative way. Beliefs, truths, what is "by design" - all just thoughts that we keep choosing again and again and again. If you want your life to change, change your thoughts. This has nothing to do with your wife and everything to do with the role in which you keep casting her. You're only as trapped as you imagine you are or need yourself to be.

You are correct. I should have been more clear. "By design" was meant to imply "By her design". To clarify, I'm fine with my thoughts, in general. But when being forward and open about them, I get lost in the insults and the "But you told me..." conversations that come about.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I'm fine with my thoughts, in general.

Your life and what you describe as your predicament would prove otherwise. I'm just pointing out that what you believe about yourself is what's playing out all around you and that what you believe can be changed. Your wife isn't the ring master here or the author of your life, you are. If you're getting overwhelmed by her comments, you've got a good opportunity to work on changing that. This is your story. She is just a cooperative player in your plot. Don't focus on getting her to change. Focus on changing your vision of what is true for you and then everything around you will shift to accomodate that different vision. It's never about getting the other person to change or staying or going. It's about what you believe to be true for yourself.

 

[CheckedShirtMatt]

Sorry to hear you're in this dilemma, Xftmfz.

Seems to me that the first thing to do, as others on this thread have suggested, is to reopen discussions with your wife about what you want and see if there is a way forward that works for both of you.

If this isn't possible, then the options are

1. Remain in your current situation, accepting that retaining this relationship is worth giving up the possibility of connection with others
2. Leave your current situation to try to find/create one for yourself that meets your needs better, accepting that the cost of this course of action is the end of your current relationship

One thing that does give me pause is that your wife has given you permission for some external activity without her, but then taken it away again. This suggests to me that she might never give you what you want.

To me, giving permission to do something but then revoking it is a little bit of a red flag. Sure, perhaps sometimes people agree to things and then change their mind, which is fine, but I think in some cases it's done so the other person can "show willing" without ever having to follow through.

 

[GalaGirl]

To clarify, I'm fine with my thoughts, in general. But when being forward and open about them, I get lost in the insults and the "But you told me..." conversations that come about.

Are you saying you endure verbal and emotional abiuse from wife? She tears you down if you are open and honest with her?

Galagirl

 

[Xftmfz]

I wouldn't say she "tears me down", like with name calling and what not. I mean, sometimes, but not like all the time. Typically it's either stonewalling or angry judgements. Maybe that's the same thing?

And to clarify - the whole giving permission and taking it away...she was never "okay" with it. It was meant to be appeasing. expected it would be revoked. She has said before she was trying to appease me, and then she's also said she fears I'll leave if different things I request aren't appeased, etc. Before I became as ethical about it as I am now, I did make threats about it. Now I don't. I try to be understanding of her situation as possible, hoping she'll eventually find the compassion to try and return the favor.

I agree, I'm writing my own story. I just don't want her out of my life. Not at all. It's not worth the loss to me now. So, working on ways to get her to open up seems to be the best IIcan do.

The thing that sucks the most is I can't just try anything to see what would happen. Even when I had the permission, friends who would have taken me up on that wouldn't touch me with a 10 foot pole because I straight up told them the truth. No one wanted to take the chance of hurting her. Me? I was willing to take the chance hoping that it might be like the first time we did anything swinging...terrified at first and then pleasantly surprised at how easy it was and how none of the fears came true. Of course, I could have just lied, but then you guys would be telling me what a cheating asshole I am. Lol

 

[CheckedShirtMatt]

Given that you say she was "never OK with it" but was willing to give lipservice to the idea to get you to back off, I think it's very unlikely you're ever going to get her agreement for the kind of arrangement you want, no matter how understanding or patient you have been with her.

If you stay married, you may find that in time your wife changes her mind and grants you the arrangement you want. However, I suspect that the more likely outcome is that you will remain in the same situation as you are now. Only you can decide if that's something you could live with.

 

[Xftmfz]

Given that you say she was "never OK with it" but was willing to give lipservice to the idea to get you to back off, I think it's very unlikely you're ever going to get her agreement for the kind of arrangement you want, no matter how understanding or patient you have been with her.

If you stay married, you may find that in time your wife changes her mind and grants you the arrangement you want. However, I suspect that the more likely outcome is that you will remain in the same situation as you are now. Only you can decide if that's something you could live with.

I agree, you may be right... But there's other evidence. She, for instance, did allow us to try separate rooms (simultaneously, in the same house) earlier this year. She acted like she didn't like it, but small conversation and that was over with. She had no leg to stand on. Whatever she was worried about didn't happen. I realize she may never "like" this stuff or fall into it. But, I would rather be positive and believe there's a place where it's "tolerable" to her in some capacity. Then we're compromising. That'd be wonderful.

 

[GalaGirl]

And to clarify - the whole giving permission and taking it away...she was never "okay" with it. It was meant to be appeasing. expected it would be revoked. She has said before she was trying to appease me, and then she's also said she fears I'll leave if different things I request aren't appeased, etc. Before I became as ethical about it as I am now, I did make threats about it. Now I don't. I try to be understanding of her situation as possible, hoping she'll eventually find the compassion to try and return the favor.

Let me repeat that back so I know I got it right. You correct me if I'm wrong.

You used to threaten to leave if you did not get your way.

So she would say whatever to get you to stop threatening and stop having this conversation in the moment. Then when the time came for action, she would ask you NOT to do that because it's not what she really wanted. You interpret this as her having the thing "revoked" even though it was obtained under duress.

Now you have changed tactics. Covert pressure like "I did X, now you could Y because you owe me" rather than overt pressure like threats to leave.

You seem to be asking for help for how to push her into things she doesn't want. Are you?

So, working on ways to get her to open up seems to be the best I can do.

To me that sounds like pestering her to change her willingness because you don't like the answer she gave/is giving.

She stonewalls, evades, gets angry -- NONE of that is "joyous YES!" consent sounding to me.

You cannot MAKE someone be willing if they just are not. All you can do is ask someone where their willingness lies and wait for their answer.

If she up for trying, then you guys can make a plan to ease into it so it isn't so jarring. But if she's flat out not willing? Could stop pushing. Respect her limit. Accept her answer as it is rather than pester her with a covert mission to wear her down so you get an answer you like better and you get to have both.

When you cannot have both things (married to her) and (poly) you pick the greater want. The ball is in your court.

• If married -- the price of admission is letting this FWB or poly stuff go and no longer pestering her on it.
  
• If poly -- the price of admission is letting being married go and work on being polite exes instead of spouses.

I realize she may never "like" this stuff or fall into it. But, I would rather be positive and believe there's a place where it's "tolerable" to her in some capacity. Then we're compromising. That'd be wonderful.

Compromise to me is about things like where to go out to dinner. Compromise is not about sexual consent. She is either "joyous yes" consenting or it's a just a "no." There's no compromise on that.

If she's engaging in sexual activity against her will or just to "appease" you so she's free of you pestering/pressuring her? She's not actually consenting unencumbered and of her own free will.

If she doesn't dig it and you do? And it is not something you want to live without? Best you accept you are fundamentally incompatible and part ways.

Going from threats to leave (overt hostility) to "working on ways to get her to open up" (covert hostility) is not healthy sounding to me.

I think being decisive is healthier.

Galagirl

 

[AutumnLeaves]

What I'm hearing is that you were open and honest with her about needing to be poly or leaving, she said under those circumstances let's try poly, she then said oh no I can't handle it, and you decided to stay with your wife...

Except you haven't decided to stay with your wife, you've decided to stay with some ideal possibility of your future wife that you've built in your head. Because she has made it clear that she is not okay with polyamory. If she's so not-okay with it right now that she can't even try it (even when she said she would) the chances of her easing into it are pretty slim.

I think you need to decide which is more important to you, your current relationship or being polyamorous. You already tried the "keep both" and it didn't work. You can't make her change. She clearly doesn't want to. I don't think under these circumstances that you're going to get both. You're just going to continue being dissatisfied and unhappy. You may believe there's a place where she's tolerable and happy of polyamory, but there is no evidence supporting that belief. None whatsoever. What you're doing is engaging in wishful thinking.

So either fully embrace monogamy with your wife, or decide to be polyamorous which means not with your wife. You're only making yourself frustrated by feeding all of this wistfulness you have on the question of what if it worked. It didn't work. You should pick a direction, commit to it fully, and move on.

Best of luck!

 

[Xftmfz]

You guys seem really locked into this whole ultimatum scenario where I pretty much say "This is how it is...or I leave."

While, your logic is spot on, and maybe I'm being a bit gullible and optimistic, I really think I'm going to continue focusing on communication and hoping that at some point, something will change.

A few clarifications: she doesn't consider herself poly or a swinger. She considers swinging something she does occasionally.

By definition, we are swingers whether she identifies with that or not. BUT she does pick and choose real friends within the lifestyle we live, and she does get upset with them and form expectations of them, just like people in other "relationships" do. She just denies any labeling that might hint at the concept of a relationship.

She's not threatened to take that away, at least not in any serious format. The FWB thing, and playing separate, is my thing. I think the permission was her attempt at seeing if she could handle the stress of it. Of course, my inexperience with it meant that it took time for me to start talking to people, and as I explained before...others who know her avoided me. Before the event could happen, she grew weary of the stress and then slid back into her shell on the event.

We do grow and change, and she does become more comfortable with different aspects. When we first started, she was opposed to anything other than couple on couple...by the end of last year, we had attended parties with groups as high as 8-10 people. Beforehand, she would be all about it, and then during she'd have a blast, and then afterward, she'd be like "well it wasn't my cup of tea". I see this not as the truth, but as a retention of leverage. If she ever admits she likes anything, that would lessen her ability to control it all. Funny though, I don't force her into ANY of these situations...we just kinda end up there through normal social interactions with like-minded people.

I think when I have been forceful, and when I have given ultimatums, it's been very unhelpful because she felt like I only cared about myself and my perspective. I do care about how she feels. That's why I'm going to such lengths to get her to read books like, "Now I need your love, is that true?". I think she's in a prison of her own thoughts (as that's how I see my previous self before coming across this line of thinking). I don't think I can "Make" her do anything. But I damn sure can't expect that just waving bye and saying "Later!" is going to make me feel good about the last decade of my life and a child I just fathered.

 

[GalaGirl]

You guys seem really locked into this whole ultimatum scenario where I pretty much say "This is how it is...or I leave."

It is not an ultimatum for her like "Do this or else I leave."

It is a decision you make for yourself. "I have been waiting with no relief in sight for ____ long. I am tired of waiting. I have to accept this will not change. I need to move on from this state. In order to do that, I can choose to let go of wanting to FWB. Or I can choose to let go of wanting to be married."

You are not at that point, and that's ok.

I have decided to continue focusing on communication and hoping that at some point, something will change.

I hope it changes in the way that you want.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Xftmfz,

Beyond wearing her down til she agrees to a compromise (assuming even that would work), I have to say I can't think of any method you could employ to soften your wife's stance on polyamory. It's like you said; even if she gives you permission, she only cancels it before you can act on it. So what can you do?

There's certainly nothing stopping you from continuing to talk to your wife about poly, I'm just saying I don't know what you should tell her about it. Perhaps you could ask her to read a book with you? "Opening Up: a guide to creating and sustaining open relationships," by Tristan Taormino.

Would that help?
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Leetah]

Some aspects of this are familiar feeling to my experience. It seems to me there is not so much coercion and duress on both sides as a problematic communication dynamic. Wife is like a child being convinced to try something new - resistant and negative until coaxed into attempting something, then reluctant to fully admit she enjoyed it in case it will somehow be held over her. Have you had a habit, one or both of you, of saying "I told you so! See I was right!" or is this a hold over she has brought from her past? In any case it sounds like insecurity and a bit of a power struggle which is being kept on the down low perhaps because self identities feel like they are at stake. Saying things straight out may feel like giving up control and being too vulnerable.

Leetah

 

[Xftmfz]

Some aspects of this are familiar feeling to my experience. It seems to me there is not so much coercion and duress on both sides as a problematic communication dynamic. Wife is like a child being convinced to try something new - resistant and negative until coaxed into attempting something, then reluctant to fully admit she enjoyed it in case it will somehow be held over her. Have you had a habit, one or both of you, of saying "I told you so! See I was right!" or is this a hold over she has brought from her past? In any case it sounds like insecurity and a bit of a power struggle which is being kept on the down low perhaps because self identities feel like they are at stake. Saying things straight out may feel like giving up control and being too vulnerable.

Leetah

Yes! Absolutely with the self identity being at stake. I think when she tells me the lifestyle is something she does sometimes, but not what she "is" inlies the heart of at least one of the bigger issues. If she doesn't identify with it at all, I would think she'd be compartmentalized and goal-focused with the relationships we form, but she doesn't. A few months back I caught her crying real tears in the shower. She wouldn't tell me what about. Then find out more recently it was over a guy from a couple we've been friends with (and sleeping with) for years now who had started to become distant. She had been trying to show interest that she didn't feel was being returned (as it had been for a really long time). So, she had some expectation of return. That to me is more reminiscent of poly since she obviously cared what was wrong, and had some expectation that wasn't met. Nothing "recreational" about this scenario. This doesn't bother me at all. I sympathize for what she was going through.