Wide Awake

[FullofLove1052]

I am heavily weighing the possibility of distancing myself from her. Against my spouse's wishes and therapist's opinions, I am considering moving out of the main home. It is not conducive to her mental health and well-being or my healing efforts to be around her. I have no idea how living separately and co-parenting are going to work. I have not thought about the logistics. He is against it, so I am sure it will lead to arguments. We have two other children to consider. Isolating her is not the answer. I am not willing to ship her away to some residential treatment facility. Some experts recommend that. It seems counterproductive.

I am not keen on most Attachment Therapy methods. Her therapist is one of the few in the state who can provide the kind she needs. It is DDP or Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy. I am trying to learn all that I can about this method of treatment. As long as coercion and regressive tactics are not applied, it seems safe. I have thought about limiting my contact with her to the bare minimum, which will be during her therapy and family therapy only. I am only considering that much contact because this model of treatment requires my participation. The presence of the detached parent supposedly helps eliminate the opportunity for the child to manipulate and lie.

She is a complicated case because she is disinhibited. She can fool even the best. This is why the family therapist and her teacher have not picked up on anything. She comes off as being together and well-adjusted. She knows what to say, how to act, and even what to do in social settings to appear normal. Every so often her true colours will show, but she has trained herself to stay calm. The forced affection towards me was not to alarm people. The first 50 of 140 minutes involved trying to break through the composed image she was presenting. It took making her mad to get her to express any kind of emotion. There was a cooling off period before she was even willing to talk again.

Attachment Disorders can be gotten over, but not without years of intensive therapy. I suppose that is why her therapist is increasing the length of her sessions. She will now be going in two hour increments every week. Starting on 23 June, the family will be partaking in morning sessions of therapy with her in three hour increments for 10 days. We agreed to do it because that is during her term break. I was not taking her out of school on some type of medical leave.

I blame myself for this. The only positive is he stopped me from doing what I had originally planned. Thank you, Jesus, for him blocking the whole co-parent/co-primary BS. It is a great thing that he stopped me from bouncing our children in between homes. If I had done that, she would have no bond with him either. At least she is capable of love and being close to people. She loves him, her nanny, and siblings. The two adults have been consistent caregivers in her life. I never dreamed I would be one of those parents whose children ran to their nanny instead of them.

I am not hopeful. People can spin it how they want. I can keep it real, though. No pussy should have come before my child. I do not believe it was ignorance. It was indifference and arrogance. I had to know what I was doing would mess my child up. I am only sorry I was dismissive and did not listen to my first mind that told me two relationships being compartmentalised and co-parenting would not benefit any one in the long run. My child is walking proof. I cannot blame anyone but myself. I saw the relationship becoming too demanding. I knew I should have ended it. I was selfish, caught up in myself, and only worried about my life. For what? Someone I did not even love and was only loyal to. I over compensated in my relationship and aacrificed the one with my child. What did Eminem say on "Superman?" "Bitches; they come; they go." No slight to Kensi, but she was not worth any of what happened. Especially this. I am going to leave that alone because I feel something rising up in me, and it is not fairy floss and love me like a love song friendly.

My child has taken to calling me Eli, which is one of my nicknames. I guess I should be thankful that she is saying anything to/or about me, huh? It is more than depressing. I am not sure if it is the depression or if I really feel this way, but I am not sure I deserve a second (or third-tenth plus) chance. I have proven that I am not a source of stability time and time again. I had over four years to make amends, and I continued to fail at parenting her (well). I was not absent because of PND, being in the armed forces, or even my chosen career. I was voluntarily absent because of a relationship and selfishness. How do you face that and reconcile it?

I am being mindful of her needs, and I want her to get better. I am just incredibly disappointed in myself.

As always, thank you, Kevin. I will be watching that movie today. I have a day off, so today is a good day for that.

Thank you, Wildflowers. I will search for that book. Adding it to my ever growing list.

 

[kdt26417]

I feel that during "the Kensi years," you were probably in some kind of state of denial. On some level you knew (or suspected) that the road you were on was going to lead to some Very Bad Things, but you ignored the warnings your subconscious was trying to issue. But I'm also inclined to speculate that you didn't know -- couldn't have known -- specifically what kind of damage was going to happen as a result of your actions. I don't think you knew your five-year-old in particular would be the one to take the lion's share of the damage, in the particular way that she did. I could be wrong but I would suggest that as a possibility.

It's not hard to imagine why you'd want to remove yourself from your daughter's home so as not to get on her already-raw nerves, but I have to side with Matt and your therapist based on what I know. First of all, you need to live where Matt lives. Second of all, you need to live where your other two children live. As bad as your five-year-old has been damaged, the rest of your loved ones (to whom you are responsible) shouldn't be sacrificed on that altar. We need to find another way to help your daughter, some kind of a compromise that doesn't compound the problem with damage to other people as well.

And, I even think it's necessary (if aggravating) for your daughter to be exposed to your company in measured doses. The damage she's suffered so far was the result of you not being there for her. Refraining from being there for her now will only worsen the damage, even if your company makes her angry. She at least needs to know that you are now available to her and will remain so, even if she chooses to never take up on that offer.

I feel that the best thing to do is to continue living in the same house, but modify your interactions with your daughter so that you are being very respectful towards her and giving her some space. And find a way to communicate with her that you aren't trying to abandon her again, you're just trying to let her be the one to decide if and when you and she can be friends. Find a way to communicate with her that you very much want to be her friend.

I would avoid taking any big huge steps here; I would stick to very tiny, very careful steps. Don't change your daughter's environment. Supply her with an environment that she can depend on, something where she knows the rules and can plan her life around them. Mom already disappeared from her life one time. Let's be sure it doesn't happen again. As I said your presence may anger your daughter, but it's very likely that your daughter needs to feel a lot of anger before she can heal. Anger is one of the steps of the mourning process.

So back away a little, enough to show that you respect her, but not so much that she will misunderstand and suppose that you've decided you want to abandon her for good. There's a really delicate balance that needs to be attempted here. Trust your therapist's counsel, and trust Matt's counsel too. Matt does, after all, have more of an in with your daughter and probably a better feel for what she is feeling and going through.

I don't mean to pat you on the back and say, "There there, you did fine." I wouldn't pat my own mother on the back either -- not like that. But I will reiterate that the past is forever cemented. If you spend too much thought/time/energy dwelling on it, you may miss out on your chance to improve the one thing that can be improved: the present. I don't think anyone can promise you 100% healing for your daughter, far less 100% restoration of the ideal mother-daughter relationship. But we can sure try to work as many repairs as possible. Even if the most we can accomplish is 1% healing, we have to try.

Don't give up. Just keep on trying to approach her with as much tenderness and deference as possible, even if she rejects you again and again and again. The situation is complicated because she is very young. She does still need parental guidance. Children still need limits, rules to live by. So you can't allow her anger to grow into an inferno that destroys everything. She needs to remember that reasonable people try to be diplomatic with each other. She needs to grow up with that wisdom in her soul.

I'll of course continue to follow this thread and be helpful in any way I can. Some of my advice will be fit for the dumpster, but I'll keep trying anyway in case some of it might prove to be useful.

Hope you enjoy the movie, it's one of my faves.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[SNeacail]

What Kevin said. It's my opinion that removing yourself will just make the problem worse in the long run. Your daughter has had some HUGE changes in her life this last year. You not being around, a near divorce, a move, school started, new sister and now mom is always around. That's a lot for any child to deal with.

BE THERE AND PRESENT, but don't hover, don't force it. You can ask about her day and accept whatever she offers. If she wants alone time when she gets home from school, let her have it, but be around. It will eventually make a difference for her to know that you are there, maybe not soon, but eventually.

See your therapist and discuss your current depression immediately!

 

[FullofLove1052]

Good morning. I woke up with a different perspective this morning. Bit more optimistic than I have been in the past few days.

Our oldest has picked up on the tension. Tensions have been mounting for the past month. Plus, the changes impossible were to ignore. I went from not picking up or taking the oldest at all to picking her up and taking her every day but Friday. It went from built-in daily bonding in the afternoon with my youngest daughter to meeting the nanny at a halfway point, so I could take her to her afternoon dance classes and now therapy only. Yes, I have that minimal amount of contact with her. We virtually have no contact at home these days. Breakfast and dinner. The way our home is designed, Matt and I have a master floor. It is designed like a flat without a kitchen. Their bedrooms are on the floor above ours, and even if she is on the master floor, there is no guarantee she will see me. She does not have to see me after about 6-7:30, which is generally when we eat dinner.

SNeacail, I am back in therapy. The depression was affecting me more than the prior time. I was functional then and not crippled by it. I was already feeling guilty about not being there, and usually I could dispel any negative thoughts. I had no luck this time, and I knew I needed help. It was all too reminiscent of PND, and it took me the first nine months of my son's life to properly bond with him. Research now shows that the incidence of maternal depression is higher when a child is four than in the months following a child's birth. I was depressed during my pregnancy with him, which was a predicted outcome. I was at a significantly higher risk for PND, so I knew what I was working with. Unlike then, I am not ashamed of seeking help. I am still nursing my son, and though there are "safe" drugs, I would rather not take anything.

There has been a lot of upheaval in the past year. Even without any of those things, my efforts were just too late, and I have lost interest in doing anything I did from June/July 2013-May 2014. I am fighting the urge to only mother two out of three children. I know I need to be there and present, and I am determined to hold on to that.

I told our oldest what was going on. Ila was a fountain of wisdom on this subject because she has been there. Albeit with different criteria met but on the spectrum. It helps having someone who has overcome RAD, which is on the more extreme and severe spectrum of attachment disorders. From her experience, they never go away, but you can manage them. While she has no contact with her biological mother, she also does not hate her. She said she has triggers, but she knows how to cope when that happens. Her treatment was more broad because her outcomes were more along the lines of teaching her how to attach to people in a healthy way, helping her learn that nothing was her fault, rebuilding her self-esteem and self-worth, healthy ways of expressing emotions, etc. She said treatment was hard and painful because she no longer had the option to run away from the issues that had been hurting her. She had to identify the painful memories one by one in order to give the therapist a raw look into what happened in her world. She remembers naming the people involved in whatever transpired. She explained that the goal of that was to bring out raw emotion and allow her to experience them again. It is a corrective measure. A healing element was grieving for her past and learning to embrace something more positive. She went through all the stages of grief, and she said it was not easy because the whole process involves fear, uncertainty, having to let go of control, pain, fear, sadness, and all emotions attached to those negative memories. It was interesting to hear from someone who had direct experience with attachment issues. She said no physicality other than comforting her was provided. I have heard about the controversial methods like holding, and that was one of my fears.

She offered her own set of suggestions and warnings from her experiences in her childhood. She said to expect her to resist the inclination to trust me. She described it as a survival of the fittest, and her view means she has to fight what does not feel natural. Nature/nurture vs. I am in this on my own. Trusting and loving me are unnatural. She thinks her defence mechanism will be to push me away at the first sign of her heart softening towards me or even the first glimpse of trust, which is what happened this time. Her personal range of emotions ranged from sadness to anger, and it had nothing to do with developing a secure attachment. It was the fear of letting go and losing control. She said to expect her talk back, be defiant, or disrespectful for no reason other than she thinks she can be. She has already started that with cheekily calling me Eli. She said do not avoid punishment and taking away things she likes. She remembers spending the ages of 9-10 on punishment for her attitude, disrespectful behaviour, and refusal to respect authority. My child has to learn boundaries, rules, and structure with me. She said be selective about trusting her because manipulation might come down the line. She said she tried all kinds of tactics to get out of therapy. If she can get something out of the deal or guilt me into doing it, I would be playing into her hands. She said be suspicious of her showing affection. It means she wants something, and the minute it is not given, she will flip on me. She said I need to change back to what I was doing and remain a constant presence in her life. It will show her that I am not going anywhere, and that she is not in control of me or this.

 

[kdt26417]

Re:

"It helps having someone who has overcome RAD ..."

And how. It sounds to me like you got some good advice there.

 

[FullofLove1052]

I am up with my hubby watching the World Cup. Unfortunately for us, it comes on during the small hours of the morning, so it means waking up early or going to bed later to see some of the games. I am not rooting for anyone in particular. We are placing bets, though. We are both confident that Australia will more than likely lose against Spain, Chile, and the Netherlands.

We are bonding over sports, and I welcome the time with him. He is more in to the game than me, but it is nice to have some quiet time before our children wake up. It is not exactly quiet, as he gets very excited during these games. Regardless as to what is going on with our child or even with me, we still have to take care of our marriage.

I like his lighthearted nature. He started singing Aloe Blacc's, "The Man," after he won a bet earlier this week. "You can tell everybody. Go ahead and tell everybody. I'm the man. I'm the man. I'm the man." It made me laugh because it was out of character for him. I am accustomed to serious, sarcasm loving Matt. These days he is working overtime to keep my spirits high, and I cannot thank him for that. He is doing something right because the atmosphere is shifting.

I have more clarification regarding Eis and this disorder. I am learning about AD/RAD and reading about therapeutic parenting. She has therapy this afternoon. I am mentally preparing myself for a fight. I have found myself having to count backwards to stop myself from OJ'ing her. The defiance is rearing its ugly head. We have moments where we are not speaking and moments where she challenges me and tries to go toe to toe and word for word. Last night's brouhaha was over her refusal to do homework. (She told me, "No, you do it.") It was really hard not to tell her, "I brought you in this world screaming, and I can and just might take you out silently. Try me." I immediately remembered that the one rule of thumb is to take nothing she says personally, so I had to let it roll off. I understand why education and new parenting are so important. Her defiance, calling me by my first name, overall disrespectful behaviour, etc. are her ways of exerting and exercising her need to feel in control of me. She has to have control because it gives her the sense of making me feel like I have lost something. Similar to the way that she "lost" me. That same control is what she pulls out to maintain her own safety it is just the two of us. Matt neutralises and diffuses the situation because she can cling to him and use him as a buffer when I am in the same room. My constant and consistent presence triggers and confuses her, but her therapist said that it is a good thing. She has to learn that she cannot run away or avoid her problems. Her problem is me, so she is having to face me. She had no choice but to be around me yesterday, and it made her mad because circumstances were out of her control. This is not something she chooses to do. It is her way of adapting and what she has learned over time.

My good days will always outweigh my bad days. I hope everyone is doing well. I am smiling and happy for the first time in several weeks. If I feel like it later on tonight, I will do a post about my best friend and Kensi-gate.

Back to the game before the mini humans wake up.

 

[SNeacail]

I have found myself having to count backwards to stop myself from OJ'ing her. The defiance is rearing its ugly head. We have moments where we are not speaking and moments where she challenges me and tries to go toe to toe and word for word. Last night's brouhaha was over her refusal to do homework. (She told me, "No, you do it.") It was really hard not to tell her, "I brought you in this world screaming, and I can and just might take you out silently. Try me."

LOL! I remember days like these. Now that I only have one teenager at home and he seems to have come out of the puberty emotional stage, things are much better. Warning: boys between the ages of 11-14 +/_ get super emotional (PMS 24/7)

Take heart, some of this is just normal school age behavior, even the need for control and the subsequent defiance. It seem that all the other issues are just escalating things.

I immediately remembered that the one rule of thumb is to take nothing she says personally, so I had to let it roll off.

This is extremely difficult! Ask any parent and they will tell you that you are not alone in this struggle. I curse my dad every time my kid did something like this because he was the one who said he hoped I would get a child just as strong willed and hard headed as his kid.

Good luck tonight!

 

[kdt26417]

Yeah, sometimes it's just a kid being a kid. (A 5-going-on-15 kid.)

 

[dingedheart]

I blame myself for this. The only positive is he stopped me from doing what I had originally planned. Thank you, Jesus, for him blocking the whole co-parent/co-primary BS. It is a great thing that he stopped me from bouncing our children in between homes. If I had done that, she would have no bond with him either. At least she is capable of love and being close to people. She loves him, her nanny, and siblings. The two adults have been consistent caregivers in her life. I never dreamed I would be one of those parents whose children ran to their nanny instead of them.

I am not hopeful. People can spin it how they want. I can keep it real, though. No pussy should have come before my child. I do not believe it was ignorance. It was indifference and arrogance. I had to know what I was doing would mess my child up. I am only sorry I was dismissive and did not listen to my first mind that told me two relationships being compartmentalised and co-parenting would not benefit any one in the long run. My child is walking proof. I cannot blame anyone but myself. I saw the relationship becoming too demanding. I knew I should have ended it. I was selfish, caught up in myself, and only worried about my life. For what? Someone I did not even love and was only loyal to. I over compensated in my relationship and sacrificed the one with my child.

I havent posted or check in here in a long time ... So sorry to hear this Ry. A friend and member here sent me this link and also a link to an article which gives a similar opposing view to children being exposed to poly.

http://www.drkarenruskin.com/polyamory-not-healthy-for-children/

I dont mean to hijack your blog with this or to beat a dead horse or make your depression worse but some people might like to see this and if there is a thread better suited for this people should feel free to post it there if they feel its relevant.


My daughter was about 13 when she discovered all about my then wife's other relationship ....so there is a big age difference ....however she said countless times in the early aftermath of that "she chose that over us " ....and now she /they choose pretty much everything and everybody over her. Maybe someday they will reconcile but I dont see any signs of it now only anger, annoyance or indifference.

People think scheduled "quality " time is some how balances that scale. I've learned (through the experience of the past few yrs ) that the special moments ...the special bonding time is rarely scheduled...you have to be there when it happens. Ive argued this very principle in the context of romantic partners with other members here but I think it has a greater meaning with kids. With a heavy sex / pussy (quoted from above ) focus on "dates" or " sleep overs" it is more likely to schedule that type of special moments.
However time is a zero sum game.


Take care D


Ps 47 minutes in as I type ...spain is up 2 to 0 over Chile

 

[FullofLove1052]

I havent posted or check in here in a long time ... So sorry to hear this Ry. A friend and member here sent me this link and also a link to an article which gives a similar opposing view to children being exposed to poly.

http://www.drkarenruskin.com/polyamory-not-healthy-for-children/

I dont mean to hijack your blog with this or to beat a dead horse or make your depression worse but some people might like to see this and if there is a thread better suited for this people should feel free to post it there if they feel its relevant.

No worries. I needed this article about six years ago. I was pregnant, so I had time to change whatever I was thinking.

I would not fault my daughter's therapist if she was in agreement with that article. She is trying to be diplomatic, but if I was her, I would be thinking, "This blood woman possibly ruined the chance of ever having a relationship with her child. What does she have to show for it?" Wait. I can answer that. I was able to be myself in all my selfish glory. I almost lost my marriage. I lost my husband's respect and trust. Oh and that relationship? Dead, buried, and nothing but scattered ashes. Oh, I have a hell of a lot to show for my choices.

My daughter was about 13 when she discovered all about my then wife's other relationship ....so there is a big age difference ....however she said countless times in the early aftermath of that "she chose that over us " ....and now she /they choose pretty much everything and everybody over her. Maybe someday they will reconcile but I dont see any signs of it now only anger, annoyance or indifference.

One day they might reconcile. If they choose to, it has to be on their time. Has your ex-wife tried to do anything to heal what has been broken, or is she caught up in herself?

The only reason I am trying now is because an undiagnosed disorder will only get worse before it gets better. Studies show Dissociative Identity Disorder or simply, multiple personality disorder, starts with an attachment disorder. I am not asking for that. Even without the formal or suspected diagnosis, she still has depression, anger issues, self-worth, and self-esteem issues. It is hard for me to hear her talking down on herself. She did it during therapy. I was waiting for her to call herself a dirty, rotten lousy child. I am not trying to be the reason she starts cutting to cope with pain or the reason we bury a child. I also do not need her being mistreated, abused, or taken advantage of because she feels like that is all she deserves. The general opinion is she is at a good age to be treated for it, so the first outcome is not to restore our relationship. I want her to be healthy.

People think scheduled "quality " time is some how balances that scale. I've learned (through the experience of the past few yrs ) that the special moments ...the special bonding time is rarely scheduled...you have to be there when it happens. Ive argued this very principle in the context of romantic partners with other members here but I think it has a greater meaning with kids. With a heavy sex / pussy (quoted from above ) focus on "dates" or " sleep overs" it is more likely to schedule that type of special moments.

Scheduled time is certainly not where it is at for me. I am learning that I enjoy spontaneity and going with the flow. For me, it is those moments that I cannot schedule or predict. I cannot predict when my son will snuggle up under me while I am reading a book and just sit there quietly. It is not unusual for our oldest to ask me if I have time do watch a movie with her, or if I want to go to Lindt Cafe. It is times like that where she confides in me, and we continue to build on our relationship. Before she started rejecting me, I enjoyed talking to our youngest before her bedtime. Over the past year, it was not unusual for me to walk by her room and for her to ask me I wanted to join her for a tea party. I sucked at imaginative play, but I was getting better. Playing with Barbies and tea parties were a challenge. I found a happy medium when the Langham hosted a Barbie Tiffin. I always said yes because whatever I was doing was not more important than spending that time with her. If only I had learned that lesson circa 2009 or so.

When I stopped dating/having overnights/letting loyalty affect my judgement and started spending quality, unscripted time with my children, I learned they were amazing little mini humans.

However time is a zero sum game.

Absolutely. I could not be in two places at once, and it stood to reason something, several things, or in my case, every little thing was going to suffer and take a hit. I want my children to be independent, but I also want them to be able trust and believe in the fact that I will always have their backs.

I listened to my child describe several times where she sought me out only to realise I was not there. Some would argue, "Maybe you were at work, with friends, or x place." My child has specifically isolated the times where she was told I was with my ex. She has basically created a mental catalogue. It helps with imagery and recreating the moments, but no wonder she is filled with resentment. The number keeps rising. She could not give a definitive number of times it happened, but hearing her say "a lot," was more than I needed to hear. Once is truly too many when it comes to that. At no point should I have ever been unavailable to her. Damn the reason. If my job had been the culprit, I would have changed things immediately. My career did not become established until well into the first years of her life. At that point, the damage was done, so it made no difference how many hours I was working. She was accustomed to it.

Looking back at my childhood, I cannot think of one time where I needed my mum and she was nowhere to be found. I have always been close to my daddy, but my daddy was not my mum. Sometimes I wanted my mum's love and comfort. No other substitute would do. From that angle, I understand my child's frustrations and questions.

I cannot harp on or change the past, but in the words of Rascal Flatts, "I am wishing I could rewind."

Ps 47 minutes in as I type ...spain is up 2 to 0 over Chile

Chile won. They knocked Spain out!

 

[dingedheart]

http://www.drkarenruskin.com/polyamory-not-healthy-for-children/

No worries. I needed this article about six years ago. I was pregnant, so I had time to change whatever I was thinking.

Would you have listened then ????

Im surprised that this article hasn't been commented on/discussed/argued ...no problem talking endlessly (5 pages ) on dick size and satisfaction. Who would have thought

One day they might reconcile. If they choose to, it has to be on their time. Has your ex-wife tried to do anything to heal what has been broken, or is she caught up in herself?

Yes in the early aftermath she did make attempts however the things she said and did made it 10 times worse. She compounded it....almost reinforced the negative.

Healing issues :
My daughter is about to turn 16 and has several boys interested in dating her and However she will have none of it....Its clearly created a problem for her.

As for my ex partner ..I dont know if she's healed herself....and all that that could mean. No real idea ...I hope she has a great life ....just away from me.

Scheduled time is certainly not where it is at for me. I am learning that I enjoy spontaneity and going with the flow. For me, it is those moments that I cannot schedule or predict. I cannot predict when my son will snuggle up under me while I am reading a book and just sit there quietly. It is not unusual for our oldest to ask me if I have time do watch a movie with her, or if I want to go to Lindt Cafe. It is times like that where she confides in me, and we continue to build on our relationship. Before she started rejecting me, I enjoyed talking to our youngest before her bedtime. Over the past year, it was not unusual for me to walk by her room and for her to ask me I wanted to join her for a tea party. I sucked at imaginative play, but I was getting better. Playing with Barbies and tea parties were a challenge. I found a happy medium when the Langham hosted a Barbie Tiffin. I always said yes because whatever I was doing was not more important than spending that time with her. If only I had learned that lesson circa 2009 or so.

When I stopped dating/having overnights/letting loyalty affect my judgement and started spending quality, unscripted time with my children, I learned they were amazing little mini humans.

I guess everyone has their own idea on how meaningful or meaningless unscripted/unscheduled time with their kids is. The women who home schools her children might really enjoy the break away. With my work schedule and then coaching their sports the unscheduled time was and is limited. My wife at the time worked a 40-50 hr work week outside the home...which meant she saw the kids nights and weekends ...maybe early mornings.

However time is a zero sum game.

Absolutely. I could not be in two places at once

Here's a thought ... talking about poly and hierarchies are kids often dumped lower on the hierarchy. I know it gets really subjective on what "lower" would mean ....and the difference between a handful of selfish acts. Some people might say their kids come first then husband/wife ...then BF/GF ...or Husband/wife ...BF/GF...then kids ....That might be a good thread.

Ps 47 minutes in as I type ...spain is up 2 to 0 over Chile

Chile won. They knocked Spain out!

Sorry about that an " ex " employee who knew I wanted Chile to win ...walked by my office and inverted the score ...little jerk....I should know better by now.

 

[kdt26417]

Re:

"I'm surprised that this article hasn't been commented on/discussed/argued ... no problem talking endlessly (5 pages) on dick size and satisfaction. Who would have thought "

Dinged, I'll comment on the article at length if you start a new thread for it -- or if Ry gives the okay for plunging into that discussion on this thread (her blog). If you do start a new thread for it, post a link in this blog leading to that new thread and I'll follow the link.

But I'll note that most of my commentary will probably be to the effect that I think poly works out to the benefit of some kids, and to the detriment of others. I don't usually paint with a wide brush; I'd rather judge each unique situation on its own merits.

Re: prioritizing the children ... sometimes I think kids get "first pick" in some areas, whereas parents get "first pick" in other areas. All the functional relationships I know of are founded on give-and-take. I can't paint everything in black and white. I see too many shades of gray.

If Ry is stepping up to the role of motherhood, then part of that role involves applying discipline to the children. A good mother doesn't just let the five-year-old run the household. That's part of what I mean.

 

[FullofLove1052]

No significant changes. We are in New Zealand for my girls' term breaks. Her therapist is in tow. All in all, I have no complaints. I am feeling more like me these days. Naturally, I have good days and bad days. My good days will always outweigh the bad. Outside of adjusting to this new parenting and all that this entails, I am quite well. My son's second birthday party is Sunday. It is hard to believe he is almost two. If I have learned nothing else, I know I need to cherish these moments.

I do hope you are all well and happy. I am not opposed to a discussion in this thread on the aforementioned article. It is relevant to what I am dealing with and poly. By all means, go for it. I will participate.

 

[kdt26417]

Part 1 of 2

Glad to hear things are going reasonably well.

Re:

"I am not opposed to a discussion in this thread on the aforementioned article. It is relevant to what I am dealing with and poly. By all means, go for it. I will participate."

Darn it, I was hoping to weasel out of that one. Well alright then [gets out work gloves]

---

Okay let's start with my basic assumptions about where this article is coming from.

The author is Dr. Karen Ruskin -- "a Marriage and Family Therapist/Relationship Expert for 20 years." Now it's possible she's traveled far and wide and (at the least) done extensive studies on a wide range of poly families, but if she has, she didn't mention the research. No technical data is given -- heck not even anecdotes.

For that reason, I am guessing that whatever factual information she's using (aside any initial prejudices she may have had which may or may not have infected her with confirmation bias beforehand) is drawn from poly families (e.g. with children) visiting her in her office in various states of family crisis. Given doctor/patient privilege, she may not have felt at liberty to describe any actual stories. Therefore she simply outlines assertions of what she believes about poly based on what she's seen (and/or believes?).

It would not surprise me if she has seen one poly-child-disaster after another, for the simple reason that happy poly families don't often turn to family therapists or relationship experts for help. They just stay at home (and go on trips together) and use their time to enjoy the happy lives that they have. If someone does go to see a therapist, it's because *something* is amiss. The person is experiencing some kind of internal distress, or someone/s in their family is experiencing distress, or people in their family are having a hard time getting along.

Given that seemingly reasonable assumption, I tend to conclude that Dr. Ruskin is probably working from a skewed data set. Even if she's supplemented her own experience with that of her colleagues, they, too, will have fallen prey to the same type of bias. They haven't seen the successful poly families with kids because those families generally won't feel the need to see a therapist.

Now I guess you could argue that, "Yeah, but she should have been able to help some of the in-trouble poly families turn their situation around if poly can possibly be good for the kids." And that's true: It's possible. Although, it's also possible that if she had a bias in the first place, she may not have been as motivated as she would have needed to be to really help these families make poly childrearing work. She may not have done the research to find out how to make poly childrearing work, either because she felt certain such research would be futile (like research on how to teach kids how to grow wings or gills), or because poly doesn't yet have enough available supporting literature to enable such research, or both.

In any case, there is a fair chance that she just doesn't have a balanced base of knowledge to work from, despite her 20 years of experience. Heck, how often does she even see a poly family in her office? It's a fair question for me to ask.

---

Re: parents pretend they're doing poly for the good of their children, when actually they're only doing it to gratify themselves ... that's a fair statement. I've never heard of anyone saying, "Hey, let's do poly -- it'd be great for the kids!" I think it would be somewhat disingenuous for almost any parent to put it like that.

Although -- monogamous parents do things that aren't necessarily geared towards the benefit of the kids. Such as hiring a babysitter so that they (just the parents) can have a date night. Or leaving the kids with the grandparents so that the parents can go on some kind of a second honeymoon trip. Or, heck, even just having sex, period. No parent would say, "Yeah, I'm having sex mainly because it'll make the kids feel good." Maybe the kids will benefit indirectly but they are hardly the focal point of parental sex (unless you count TTC sex).

Of course, parents generally do such "just for us adults" things in such a way as to be sure it won't be harmful to the kids, an important point I wouldn't want to gloss over. I only say that if the kids aren't harmed by it, then some "selfish adult pleasures" are okay.

On a half-related note, parents don't always do what the kids would want, either. Sometimes a parent insists that a child clean his/her room or eat his/her vegetables. Sometimes a parent grounds a child, or sends that child to a "time out," if the child is out of line or out of control. Just establishing, while we're in the neighborhood, that a child doesn't always have to be pleased with the game plan in order for said game plan to be considered good for the child.

---

Re:

"I freely admit there are indeed some who are in a polyamorous relationship who truly believe it is grand -- while they are in it."

And I'm willing to bet my last dollar that I'm going to continue to be "in it" until I or one or both of my poly companions die/s. I guess I'm doomed to suffer from a delusion of grandness until then? Who's to say that all happiness isn't an illusion? What are the standards for determining who's really happy and who's just kidding themselves?

Re:

"Certainly for the days, weeks, months, and for small numbers of people, years -- there are aspects of polyamory that are indeed grand for them."

What aspects are those? The only drawbacks I've experienced in my poly family are the same kind of drawbacks I experienced in my previous monogamous life. Those pesky little petty disagreements that sometimes crop up in daily life. Those first few years in the relationship, which tend to be difficult years. Afterwhich those involved learn how to get along with each other and work with each other's idiosyncrasies.

One weakness in Dr. Ruskin's article is she tends (despite her early disclaimer) to stereotype polyamory -- as if most polyamorists are "revolving-door polyamorists" (NRE junkies?) -- people with new lovers cycling into and out of their lives all the time.

While such a poly style certainly exists and is fair game for critical observation, a rather different (and at least equally common, from what I've seen) setting is arranged for the children of, say, a closed, lifetime-committed V or triad -- if all three adults are truly consenting. If one of the adults consents with certain stipulations and another one of the adults stops observing those stipulations, then mutual consent is lost, discord among the adults follows, and that's bad for the kids. The kids may become the rope in a tug-o-war between opposing ideologies.

[continued below]

 

[kdt26417]

Part 2 of 2

[continued from above]

But let's return to our revolving-door polyamorists and ask how that kind of setup affects the kids. A new adult enters the kids' lives, the kids grow attached to that adult, and then poof! the new adult is cycled back out, leaving the kids broken-hearted (and liable to use such coping mechanisms as shutting down emotionally to avoid getting attached in the first place).

The solution as I see it is to limit the kids' contact to the new adult in proportion to how likely the new adult is to stick around. Heck if it's a one-night stand, the kids probably shouldn't meet that adult at all. If the adult will be around for a couple of months, they might rise to the level of a casual acquaintance -- just a friend, and not a particularly special friend either.

What about adults the kids meet, see regularly for nigh on a year, and then lose contact with? Well most monogamous kids already have that: It's called a schoolteacher (and/or Sunday School teacher). Kids often have coaches and piano teachers. Most kids have a series of babysitters that cycle in and out of their lives, and that's not usually considered the end of the world. Making friends, even really good friends, who we later lose contact with, is something we all experience throughout our lives. I think it's okay for kids to learn early to make peace with that reality. I mean for crying out loud, mortality claims many kids' grandparents early on. Or the family moves (to a faraway place) for some reason (especially if Dad's in the Army). There's all kinds of reasons why a child might have to learn to mourn the loss of a well-loved friend (of whatever age) and then to move on.

Now, should a new adult be introduced to a child as a new parent? Based on what I've read and mulled over, probably not. Legally the new adult is "just a friend," and that's probably a good perception to start the child off with. Although if the friend lives in the home with the child and parents, it seems wise to grant the friend the status of an adult authority figure (with the adults coming to an agreement about how the kids are to be handled).

Should a child (of his/her own accord) be allowed to start calling the new adult "Mum" or "Dad?" Technically yes, as long as a solemn chat is had with the child regarding how (much and how) long the new adult is expected to stick around. Of course if the parents (e.g. because one of the parents stipulated it) have agreed not to allow the new (third) adult to receive a parental title from any of the kids, then I guess the child should be discouraged from undermining that stipulation. Although, you'd think all three adults could agree to let the child make that call for himself/herself.

---

At what age should a child be told that one or both parents are in (a) polyamorous relationship/s? I usually recommend sooner rather than later, and I guess I'd add that the adults should expect to be outed once the child knows. Staying in the closet is a luxury that usually only childless poly families can afford. But there may be exceptions where the child is good at keeping a secret and is willing to do so. I think the kids should also be informed that polyamory is not widely accepted or understood, and that the kids and adults in the poly household all face the risk of persecution from their family, peers, and coworkers. That part of poly is bad for everyone in the poly household, but, homosexuals are frequently persecuted too, yet we don't forbid them to adopt a child because it would be bad for the child to be exposed to the stigma that the parents have knowingly brought into their lives.

I tend to compare disclosing a poly dynamic to teaching a child about sex. For example, if a child is old enough to ask a certain question, then he/she's probably old enough to receive a straight answer -- although, YMMV and age-appropriateness should always be carefully considered.

Re:

"The sales pitch that many in polyamorous relationships who have children are inferring directly is that those children are better off than monogamous ones. This is stated with the reference that they will receive more love, and that love by many (mother, father, mother's lover/lovers and/or father's lover/lovers) is oh so much better. This is just a rationalization for the adult to feel better about a choice they are making that is not consistent with the societal norm, so that they don't feel like they are doing something potentially hurtful to their children."

Impressive assertion -- but where are the facts and figures, indeed the logic, to back it up? All else being equal, three adults adds up to more than two adults. If a grandparent was living with the child and parents, most people would tend to think of that as a plus for the child. We all understand that there are exceptions to every rule especially in relationships, but in the meantime as long as we isolate the numbers, three (or more) definitely outsizes two. If that's a rationalization then it's a pretty solid one.

And if all we're arguing about is something that's *potentially* hurtful, we live in whole world of potentially hurtful things. Monogamous couples have the potential to hurt their children (accidentally or intentionally). Allowing a child to play in (the woods or the water or the mountains or) a playground has the potential to end with the child getting hurt.

---

There's a lot more material in the article but most of it is just re-stating the damage caused by removing an adult a child loves from the child's life. Since I have addressed that issue, I won't bother repeating myself in this post. However, I will try my best to respond to whatever questions or concerns are put to me. I am also willing to respond to any particular comment anyone wants to quote to me from the article.

I know of cases where children are growing up in a poly household, and of cases where children have grown up in a poly household (and are now adults), where the kids seem to be doing just fine. I also know of cases where poly (or more precisely the particular way poly is conducted) has damaged the children in some way. So as I said in the earlier post, it's my position that just as poly is right for some adults but wrong for others, a poly household is also right for some children but wrong for others. Careful planning, productive communication, and frequent reevaluations over the years are needed when a child is being exposed to a poly dynamic. Actually, those three things are needed no matter what kind of dynamic a child is exposed to.

Most of us know of at least one monogamous marriage that produced deranged or damaged kids. Heck, a marriage can be seemingly perfect (and perfectly monogamous) and still produce a John David LaDue. The causes of such regretful outcomes tend to be more complex than just looking at monogamy or polyamory by themselves.

 

[dingedheart]

Wow kev ....glad you had your work gloves on


First I have to say again I was given the article by another forum member so I'm not familiar with DR karen or her body of work or her resume. Never heard of her before the article.


Second ...kev do you actually believe all the things you said here ??? it has the feel of a high school debate in which someone is given the side to defend.

All of your assumptions as to bias and creditability are based on one simple article ??? Do you think thats fair.

Doesnt this article exactly mirror what Jayde said in her mommyish articles as ....
http://www.mommyish.com/2013/11/14/teens-and-polyamorous-parents/
http://www.mommyish.com/2013/11/28/polyamorous-family-holidays/

.....part of a discussion with Gorgeouskitten



Why cant The Dr...(the Dr of 20yrs in this field) be right....and by be right I mean for the majority. This is seems like youre looking for the cases in which if the guy was wearing the seat belt he would have been killed. Yes they are out there. The points she makes seem fairly logical and grounded.

Having seen poly disaster one after another should count for something. It could be analogous to be raised in a home with an alcoholic parent ....kids make it out OK ...dont become alcoholic go on to happy and healthy adults ....However there maybe many that suffer life long issues and problems from not the least of which them being chemically dependent.

I dont think teacher and other adult figures in a kids life translates the same way as mom or dads other romantic partner....but i could be wrong....I do remember one of my daughters friends crying a lot the last 1/2 day of school because she going to miss whatever teacher....she cried pretty much all afternoon ...the other kids wanted to dump they had planned some park trip ...I remember because I was a driver I dont know if this supports your argument or is against it ...


Thats all I have time for today ....

 

[FullofLove1052]

I am still working on my response to Kevin's posts, but I thoroughly enjoyed reading your POV. I do love a good discussion.

*******

My son's second birthday and party lead to a very busy weekend and start to the week. Every birthday is truly a celebration of life. I think of all the problems that he could have been plagued with due to being premature, but he is a healthy, bubbly little mini human. He stole my heart and helped me to become a better person. I have made my fair share of mistakes (check my 5 year old), but I must be doing or have done something right because I was blessed with the gift of being his mum. I am glad he enjoyed himself and partied until he fell out in the car on the way home. It was more than worth all of the headaches.

I am also planning my 14 year old's birthday weekend. Her birthday falls on a Thursday, and she wants to have a themed family dinner at this new restaurant. The party for her friends will be held on Friday night. We are taking her and a group of her closest friends to Splendour in the Grass in North Byron Parklands for the weekend. I feel like we need to start planning her Sweet 16 now.

The not so happy meanderings in my life...Kensi and I were doing well. Operative word being were. We were spending time together, getting on, working towards a friendship, and acting like we had sense. We have hit a snag. We are pretty volatile and explosive when mixed. Seeing as how I am experiencing issues with my child that she had a hand in, I was trying to be mindful of what I said and how I expressed myself. She is aware of the issues with my youngest daughter because I made her aware. It was not to make her feel bad, but I felt like she needed to know the full extent of the ramifications of her actions. Protecting her from the truth serves no purpose. My relationship with my child is messed up because I was catering to her and the growing demands of a relationship that should have ended while my daughter was still in my uterus. There are only some many polite ways one can phrase that.

We were having dinner at her house when I told her about the issues with my daughter. She was apologetic, and I asked why she was apologising? She told me she was jealous of how much time my baby was spending with me. She was jealous because I was so wrapped up in being a mum that I had no time for her. Her jealousy reached a fever pitch, and she decided that she "deserved" more of my time. I felt compelled to meet her needs. Being her primary meant I had to step it up, right? I could not cut time on the professional side. Matt already had minimal time with me and an opposite schedule. Family and friends? They saw me at funerals and weddings. What did that leave? Time with my baby. The #1 time consumer was my little baby. Nothing was ever good enough for her. She always wanted more. I have never been that enraged before. I saw red that night. It was bad enough that she was a cowgirl and wanted to destroy my marriage, but to be jealous of an innocent baby? I stood up, and before I knew it, I cleared the whole table. Glassware shattered all over the floor.

The shattered dishes were the beginning. The argument she had with Matt last year had nothing on the argument we had. That was a minor dust up in comparison. The argument was bound to happen. I stepped outside of myself. There was no careful selection of words or being mindful. I wanted her to feel what I have been feeling and hurt the way that I have been. She was not the one who was dealing with a child who took pride in hating her. Yes, my child hates her, but she never loved my child, so she has no idea what any of this has felt like. She managed to escape unharmed, and a year and a half later, I am still picking up the pieces. It must be nice to just go on after you have wrecked someone else's life and destroyed everything that meant something to that person. Her apologies meant nothing. It was raw. All the effective communication crap from therapy does not work when feelings about your children are involved. She called me hateful, and I told her I wished we had never dated because she was a waste of my time and not worth any of the pain or the aftermath of her destruction. With that, I left. I knew I was being hateful, but at that moment, it did not matter. No holds were barred. I wanted to make her hurt and feel pain.

It was rough. Usually, I can keep my calm. I have only blacked out one time in my life, and it was during a fight in year 8 with my cousin. I ended up breaking her nose in that fight. I have never been so mad that I cried because I had no more room left for anger. I walked in the front door, and Matt was waiting for me. He just opened his arms and held me. I did not tell him what had happened. I just texted him and told him, "I need you." I did something I have not done in years: dropped to my knees and prayed. I am spiritual. Not religious. I do not read the bible, attend bible study, pray, or anything along those lines. I asked him to pray with and for me. My grandmother and grandmother-in-law both kept telling me, "Let go. Let God." Since I prayed that prayer, things with my youngest daughter have been improving.

She acknowledges my presence and is talking to me. She knows I am close if she needs me. I am not sure if it is the daily therapy, the countless prayers, or both, but there has been a shift in the atmosphere. Yesterday, I was reading a book in my morning room, and she came and sat in the room with me. No words were exchanged, but she smiled at me and continued drawing her picture. We had a heart to heart last night before she went to bed. I let her lead the conversation and pick what we discussed. She asked me to hold her until she went to sleep. That was the first time in almost two months. She fell asleep in my arms--with her head on my heart. I ended up sleeping in her bedroom all night. I just woke up and left her room this morning.

Kensi and I have not talked since the argument. I knew we needed a therapist's help to repair the friendship. Perhaps it is good that this happened and played out the way it did. She has been reaching out to me via text, calls, and e-mails. All have went unanswered. I will apologise for how I acted but not what I said and how I said it. I have considered paying for what I damaged. As it stands now, I do not think we need to talk outside of a therapist's office. She is petrol, and I am the match waiting to set it ablaze. What a volatile mix. We have entirely too many open wounds and issues to resolve without the guidance of a professional.

My life is not a complete mess. My day to day life is very standard and normal. Parenting, laundry, cooking, cleaning, self-care, focusing on my marriage, family time, therapy, etc. I have these patches of, "What the hell did I do to deserve this," but I am quiet and reserved (prudish) in day to day life.

I do still have my struggles surrounding poly. I am quite cynical and negative towards it when it comes to myself. I am my own harshest critic, and I critique my every move and mistake. I cannot see myself ever being in two relationships again. I cannot do it. I would rather be a nun, celibate, and live in a convent than ever entertain that notion. It seems like a distant, unwanted, unpleasant memory. A year plus on and I cannot think of one positive outcome. I have tried and tried. Not a single one. If anything the list of my negatives keeps growing. Yes, congratulations to myself. I can love two people, but I absolutely do not want to. I isolated from my own best friend because I felt something more than platonic feelings for her. (We have worked that out. Partially because she is 12k kilometres away again.)

I intend on burying all romantic feelings for her. If they are not friendly ones like, "She is my best friend of 30+ years and the godmother of my children," they do not belong in my life. I am doing my damndest to bury that part of me. One way or another, I will do it. Self-hatred? Not really. I am so far removed from it that I would never consider poly to be part of me. It is something I did. Then, I built a bridge and got the hell over it and myself. No amount of therapy will ever help me find a single positive that it brought in to my life. I gave up on the idea of such in the first few weeks of therapy. There is nothing wrong with me in that sense. A therapist cannot make me believe in anything. I just have accepted that it is a lovely thing for others and quite possibly the most unpleasant idea to ever grace my thoughts when it comes to myself. Nonetheless, I respect it.

I hope you are all doing well. I do read posts from time to time. I am just not in a position to reply usually. I cannot give anyone advice when my own life is like a glass house.

 

[kdt26417]

Ry, I'm sorry about what happened with Kensi. You can make repairs on that situation if/when you feel it's appropriate. Right now, I think the important thing is that your five-year-old is warming up to you. I encourage you to focus on that.

Re:

"I just have accepted that [poly] is a lovely thing for others and quite possibly the most unpleasant idea to ever grace my thoughts when it comes to myself. Nonetheless, I respect it."

I appreciate that.

---

Re (from dingedheart):

"Kev do you actually believe all the things you said here? It has the feel of a high school debate in which someone is given the side to defend."

No, I actually believe that stuff. It's not my style to take an assigned position in a formal debate. I'd make a terrible lawyer. Heck it's not my style to debate at all, but I guess I can be talked into discussing certain issues.

Re:

"All of your assumptions as to bias and creditability are based on one simple article? Do you think that's fair?"

Dude, I was only given one article to discuss. Point me to whatever other articles you have in mind and I'll consider them. Seems pretty fair to me.

Re: counter-articles ... I'm too lazy to use Google to go looking for them. Your go-to guy for articles about poly is Alan7388 ... http://polyinthemedia.blogspot.com/ ... or even http://polyinthemedia.blogspot.com/2012/04/more-on-raising-children-in-poly-home.html

Re: Jayde ... I'll look at those new links momentarily; I'd like to address the rest of your post first. But I believe I've already conceded (in past posts/PM's) that Jayde's story is a prime example of polyamory handled absolutely the wrong way.

Re:

"Why can't the doctor ... (the doctor of 20 years in this field) be right ... and by be right I mean for the majority."

It's possible that she could. It's just that her mere say-so doesn't establish that as the fact. We are sort of in a state of affairs where we don't know what's true in the majority of cases, Dr. Ruskin's article notwithstanding.

Again (as stated earlier), doctors (read: counselors) will tend to see more cases of people needing help than they will cases where people are doing fine. So I don't expect Dr. Ruskin to have been exposed to many cases of successful poly childrearing.

The scenarios she described sound reasonable enough at first glance, and probably reflect actual cases she's seen. I don't mean to imply that all poly is good for the kids. Just giving my explanations as to why in *some* cases I think that it's harmless (if it's handled well).

I'm not enough of an expert to venture percentages. There's nothing here that's stopping anyone from assuming that cases of successful poly childrearing are the exception rather than the rule.

Re: your analogy to "alcoholic childrearing" ... could certainly be used, but I'd only agree with it to the extent that there are cases where poly is handled like (and has the same effects as) alcoholism. As mentioned previously, I know of some cases where poly was/is handled poorly, and some cases where it was/is handled well.

Not sure of the percentages, but it's worth noting that poly forums will "suffer" from a handicap similar to Dr. Ruskin's: People with a happy (drama-free) poly life will be less likely to visit a poly forum (than someone who's in trouble). So, I expect the majority of poly stories I encounter on Polyamory.com to be "problem stories." That's largely what we're here for, is to help people who are in trouble and give them counsel/advice.

So again, the jury is out as to the real percentage ratio of successful-to-unsuccessful poly stories. I don't intend to try to clear up that mystery here. It's perfectly fine by me if you want to assert that most poly stories are failure stories. I'm selfishly content knowing that my own poly story is a success story (overall).

---

Re: http://www.mommyish.com/2013/11/14/teens-and-polyamorous-parents/ ... seems to be largely centered around the fact that Jayde no longer wants a "second mom." The best way to approach that, IMO, would be to ask Jayde (periodically) what she wants, and to negotiate for a game plan that Jayde feels okay about. It seems reasonable to me for "Mom #2" to take a step back and maintain a low profile.

Re:

"I'm struggling with why they can't be normal?"

Don't know, but lots of parents fit the "abnormal" profile. What about gay parents who adopt a child? Why can't they be normal?

Re:

"My parental units wanted to scream their love from the top of the skyline and jump on couches like Tom Cruise, so everyone knows. We live right outside of Hollyweird, but they never stopped to consider if their need to be out of the closet would later affect me or my sibling."

Coming out of the closet is one thing; screaming your love from the top of the skyline is another. I think what's happening in Jayde's story is that Jayde's parents are trying to use her as a showpiece. Which is a kind of objectification.

I think Jayde's parents have also done a poor job of checking in with Jayde to see how she felt about this or that. They're taking a lot of things for granted. If they do know how Jayde feels, they're not honoring it. They actually seem to be in a state of denial about it.

Re: http://www.mommyish.com/2013/11/28/polyamorous-family-holidays/ ... sounds like a continuation of the theme, "Why can't they be normal?" to which I guess I'd say, "They can't, but they can at least take you seriously enough to negotiate compromises with you."

Re:

"I am introverted, shy, and don’t take to new people easily. But year after year, my parents put me around people I had never met before."

That seems to me like a good example of Jayde's parents not bothering to check in with Jayde to see how she feels about the game plan. I suppose their excuse is that they're seeing it all through rose-colored lenses. They just can't imagine Jayde having a problem with anything they'd decide to do.

---

These discussions remind me a little of the parts of "Sex at Dawn" where the authors lament the evils of agriculture. If only humans had never discovered agriculture! We'd still be living happily today, hunting and gathering in small bands and sharing love and sex freely, rather than overpopulating the earth and hoarding partners in the name of monogamy.

So, too, could we say, if only humans had never discovered polyamory! We'd still be living normally today, maintaining our white picket fences and going to church on Sunday, rather than overpopulating our love lives with one new flame after another.

Well, the fact is, we did discover agriculture and now we're stuck with it. The magic wand that we could wave to make it go away doesn't exist. Instead of trying to turn back the clock, why can't we use our problem-solving skills to learn how to handle it better? Humans are starting to learn to share again, so that process is already underway.

So, too, we could say, polyamory was bound to be discovered; I know that just from how my own life played out. There's no magic wand to make it go away, and we could argue forever about whether it should go away. If it's here and we're stuck with it, then maybe the best use of our time would be to determine how and when it should be practiced. This forum gives us that opportunity.

I'm very sorry for the pain polyamory has caused in various people's lives. I guess there will always crusaders who want everyone to see that we'd be better off without it. And maybe Polyamory.com could do a better job of warning people that polyamory's not for everyone (because it's not). I guess my own rule of thumb is to try to help people make the best of whatever course they want to choose in life. People make choices with more enthusiasm when they feel like it's their own idea. Of course, I don't consider myself to be the site's most assertive member.

 

[SNeacail]

She acknowledges my presence and is talking to me. She knows I am close if she needs me. I am not sure if it is the daily therapy, the countless prayers, or both, but there has been a shift in the atmosphere. Yesterday, I was reading a book in my morning room, and she came and sat in the room with me. No words were exchanged, but she smiled at me and continued drawing her picture. We had a heart to heart last night before she went to bed. I let her lead the conversation and pick what we discussed. She asked me to hold her until she went to sleep. That was the first time in almost two months. She fell asleep in my arms--with her head on my heart. I ended up sleeping in her bedroom all night. I just woke up and left her room this morning.

You forgot the biggest reason: YOU HAVE BEEN THERE!
Kids don't give a crap about words, they see and react to actions. If your actions in the past are different than your actions now, it might take some time before she will fully trust the new reality, but eventually, she will accept it and her hatred and resentment will fade (at least until she wants a weapon against you to get what she wants ).

I'm thinking the big blow up was necessary for both of you. I have noticed that it's very difficult for those without kids to understand the time and energy it takes to raise kids (It's even hard for the new parents to fully comprehend). They don't understand that staying out til 2am is completely out of the question, not because you need to be home (kid probably asleep), but because you are already a walking zombie. I see marriages fall apart because the wife is no longer doting on her husband and instead of pitching in to help, he sulks because he is feeling neglected... turns into a vicious downward spiral.

 

[FullofLove1052]

You forgot the biggest reason: YOU HAVE BEEN THERE!

Kids don't give a crap about words, they see and react to actions. If your actions in the past are different than your actions now, it might take some time before she will fully trust the new reality, but eventually, she will accept it and her hatred and resentment will fade (at least until she wants a weapon against you to get what she wants ).

Indeed. My presence might be stimulating something positive. It has been a peaceful couple of weeks.

I'm thinking the big blow up was necessary for both of you. I have noticed that it's very difficult for those without kids to understand the time and energy it takes to raise kids (It's even hard for the new parents to fully comprehend). They don't understand that staying out til 2am is completely out of the question, not because you need to be home (kid probably asleep), but because you are already a walking zombie. I see marriages fall apart because the wife is no longer doting on her husband and instead of pitching in to help, he sulks because he is feeling neglected... turns into a vicious downward spiral.

It was necessary. I made no secret of the fact that Kensi was not in my peripheral view after I had my daughter. It is not uncommon for new parents to experience jealousy. Most channel it and help out instead of bitching and/or plotting and planning to come in between mother and baby. It was not that she was no longer important, but every ounce of strength and every bit of my time went towards being a mother. It takes being a parent to understand that level of tiredness and exhaustion. I neglected her and our relationship. Welcome to the club, cupcake. That is what happens when children enter a childless dynamic. They take everything out of you and own your time until further notice. Babies needs come before everybody's needs.

It is impossible for those without children to fully comprehend. I cannot leave tonight, stay out till tomorrow, dance on tables, and indulge on cocktails like I have no worries or concerns in the world. That is precisely what she was doing while we were waking up at all hours of the night to feed my daughter, changing nappies, and walking around like zombies. I now understand why Matt was so strongly opposed to her being considered a second mum or parent at all. Fact is, she did nothing to be considered that and did not carry herself like one, and the same happened after my son's birth. I now understand what he meant when he said, "No one should have to tell you how to be a mother/father or ask you do anything for a kid that you consider to be yours." At no point should I have ever had to ask her to feed her, change a nappy, or do anything. I suppose that is the difference between us and her. Taking care of our child came naturally and without someone telling us we needed to do it. She wanted to be an equal parent without getting her hands dirty or without actually being involved. That is not what makes a parent. Common sense should have said...if she is tied up with "our" baby, perhaps I should lend a hand with "our" child to bond with the new baby and spend time with the person I am missing. Not put on a mini dress and go to Boujis or 5 Hertford to drown my jealousy and sorrows about my girlfriend being "unavailable" because of "our" new baby. I suppose that is what frustrated me the most. Never tell someone, "I understand how you feel or felt." She could not possibly understand. Walk a kilometre or two in my Louboutin's and then you might be able to claim that.

My younger children still require a lot of energy and time. I have been at home with my children since the 20th. I am more exhausted being a SAHM than I have ever been working outside of the home. I am patiently waiting for them all to return to school. My son wakes up at 2 AM and wants to play. His nursery is on our floor, so he climbs in bed with us and slaps us until we wake up. I would love for him to sleep through the night again, but noooo, he would rather play with his feet and keep us awake. The joys of motherhood. Terrible two's...I have not been waiting for you.