BDSM discussion

Hey NYCindie,

I didn't take issue with what you wrote, since you had the courtesy to make it about you, as in "I don't get it," not about me or the OP or the other people on this board and in our lives who practice D/s... which is what River did when he wrote "I can in no way see how a 24/7 role playing game of the D/s type should not be seen as pathological. There, I said it." True, it was technically an "I" statement, but seriously. I mean, "harsh."

We field questions here every day from anguished people on this board whose partners are hurting them and who aren't in D/s relationships. Carma and Sundance? Not doing D/s. If they were and everything else was the same, I imagine you might have a hard time considering the idea that the D/s was not necessarily to blame. But it's not. People are often assholes. Poly people, mono people, vanilla people, kinky people. It's a sad fact of life.

I suggested that the OP deliberately and fully step out of her D/s role with her partner for a discussion of this potentially relationship-breaking problem just to be absolutely, positively sure that it wasn't getting in the way here. I see no reason at all to assume it was causing the problem, since NRE and thoughtlessness are so sadly common.

If you want to better understand what it's all about, I can't think of a better resource to direct you to than this one: http://www.xeromag.com/fvbdsm.html
 
AnnabelMore said:
I imagine you might have a hard time considering the idea that the D/s was not necessarily to blame. But it's not. People are often assholes. Poly people, mono people, vanilla people, kinky people. It's a sad fact of life.

I suggested that the OP deliberately and fully step out of her D/s role with her partner for a discussion of this potentially relationship-breaking problem just to be absolutely, positively sure that it wasn't getting in the way here. I see no reason at all to assume it was causing the problem, since NRE and thoughtlessness are so sadly common.
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I get all that and I agree assholes are everywhere. And that's why I said "It's the people in the D/s roles I wonder about . . . more than the roles themselves." Stepping out of it makes sense, although I wonder how much of the role you can just shed and turn off or on like a light switch, but the comment you made telling her to do that just made me wonder what the hell the benefit was in the first place if you have to make sure it isn't part of what's fucking things up. But I never said nor meant to imply that D/s was the cause of their problems, though couldn't it exacerbate them, just like poly can magnify problems in a relationship? (Though I do not like correlating the two. I see poly and any aspect of BDSM as vastly different choices from each other)

*sigh* Maybe I'm just babbling. I don't feel like I'm being very clear.

Thanks for the link, but I've got a whole e-book library about D/s, oddly enough, which I read here and there. It downloaded automatically when someone recommended a book to me and I found it in a zip file full of other stuff. The reason it was recommended to me was that a guy said he thought I would make a great Dominatrix, which was not the first time that's been said to me, which perplexes me even more! I just feel like... nope, can't. LOL
 
I'm gonna post more about this on my blog later, so as not to continue to threadjack. One thing, though--

The comment you made telling her to do that just made me wonder what the hell the benefit was in the first place, if you have to make sure it isn't part of what's fucking things up. I never said nor meant to imply that D/s was the cause of their problems, though couldn't it exacerbate them, just like poly can magnify problems in a relationship? (I do not like correlating the two. I see poly and any aspect of BDSM as vastly different choices from each other.)
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I've gotta say, I think you're being inconsistent here. You ask what the benefit of D/s is if it could be part of the problem, and then you point out that poly, too, can exacerbate problems in a relationship. Why add poly to a perfectly good marriage if it could end up being a problem? Why add sex to a friendship if it could end up being a problem? Because usually it's not a problem, usually it's *awesome* (at least when you're experienced enough to know what you're doing).

I think the comparison to poly is apt because both are relationship choices that the world at large finds confusing at best and disturbing or immoral at worst. It's true they're very different in other ways, but so are carrots and jogging, and yet I can make the comparison carrots are to candy as jogging is to lying on the couch. Metaphors can compare unlike things and still be valid.

Also, if you've read other sources and still feel you don't understand... and would like to understand... do at least consider the xeromag.com link. Veaux writes in an extraordinarily clear, relatable way and assumes not just lack of knowledge but active resistance, at least initially, in his audience.
 
River said:
Not being BDSM kinky myself (I'm pure vanilla, baby!) I can't help wondering whether this is uncommon treatment from a "top/dominant" toward a "bottom/submissive". I mean, where is the boundary between the BDSM dynamic and the ... well, everyday "vanilla" world?:confused:
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A very short xeromag quote:

"Where do you draw the line? How much is too much?

You draw the line wherever you want to. There isn't one way to 'do' BDSM, and not everybody is into the same things."

To address your first conjecture first, no, it is NOT common for a dom to neglect and mistreat their sub, at least not any more than it is for people to treat their partners that way in other relationships... which is to say it happens more than anyone would like because people make mistakes and/or are assholes. But it's not the norm, *especially* not for experienced folks. But of course, as I said, there are exceptions.

As for the question of where the line is, which Veaux addresses, I'll elaborate just a little and say that for some people it's in the bedroom on rare occasions only. For others it's all the time everywhere (though that's relatively to very rare). And literally *every* other spot on the continuum between those two extremes is being practiced by some couple, somewhere.
 
nycindie said:
And to me, even if I were a submissive, I couldn't wait to say, "hold on, we need to step out of our roles here so we can talk about this." I would want the freedom to speak my mind at the moment, no matter what role I'm supposed to be in, and confront shitty treatment right away. I don't think being in one of these power exchange relationships should preclude basic human rights to express ourselves and be treated with respect. If I were ever to want to try this kind of thing, it would certainly take a whole lotta trust in someone who had proven they were capable of handling this kind of responsibility before I'd ever even consider submitting to anybody.
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I would say that in most D/s relationships subs can and do freely express any and all concerns. In some relationships, though, part of the dynamic is that the sub accepts things he or she wouldn't normally, or speaks with extra deference towards the dom, or says "Stop, no, I couldn't poooossibly do *that!*" when he or she really *wants* to do just that, or engages in other mutually agreed upon and mutually desired behaviors that, potentially, inhibit the free flow of concerns.

But that doesn't mean the sub isn't free to express an overriding concern at any moment. As has been mentioned previously, that's what safewords are for. And minor concerns in those contexts can either be addressed with a milder safeword, like "yellow" for slow down instead of "red" for stop, or can be talked about at a different time.

Also, if shitty treatment of *any* regularity is a real concern, then you probably wouldn't have gotten to the point of mutual trust, knowledge of each other and respect where you would be doing the sorts of power exchange that might inhibit any type of expression.
 
People use "safe words" in non-BDSM dynamics too, I would think - such as "Hon, there's something we need to talk about. PLease give me your undivided attention for a moment." It doesn't HAVE to be in the middle of sex, and it doesn't have to have anything to do with pain or power exchange.
 
D/s is essentially a game, right? People do it for funsies. Those that do it just in the bedroom are casual about their gaming, and those that "lifestyle" it are more hardcore gamers. :) That's how I think about it.

Not something I'm personally into, but I can see the appeal.
 
What I know is from my own life in BDSM. I enjoy taking care of people in my life. I do it well. In my job I am a caregiver also. What I get out of being a mistress is being cared for back. I get appreciation, attention and what I miss elsewhere, all while being a caregiver in return. I swear, it keeps me sane and able to continue working and being who I am without burning out, becoming resentful and lashing out abusively with my words and actions.

My life as a mistress is pretty much the only area I receive anything in return from others in a way that is tangible. My sub gives me the attention I lack elsewhere in return for the attention I give him. I ask for it, it is given willingly and eagerly. I don't get that on the forum/online, in my job, from my community. If I asked for some attention in the vanilla world I would get more eye rolls than I get from my son when I try to kiss him good bye at his school. People just don't give in that way on a regular basis, at least in my world. Nor do I expect them to, as that's not how life works. In D/s subs and doms do, though. It's a balance that doesn't exist in day-to-day life.

What I give to my subs is the release of having to be responsible for themselves and their emotions. I take care of all of that for them. I do it because I love them and want to release their burden. Its very cathartic and relieving to be told that you don't have to be responsible, that I will take care of all of that. It's been cathartic for me too, to be trusted that much.

I have helped Mono release all kinds of emotions because of the nature of our relationship when I dom him. Of course he can express himself, of course he can do things when he wants and needs to. Sometimes what is needed is to be released even from that! A good dom would recognise when those needs come up (need to go pee, need to remember to send a birthday card to your mum, etc.) and allow/tell their sub to do what is necessary and expected of them beyond the relationship dynamic.
 
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MichelleZed said:
I know, but one always takes one's hobbies way too seriously.
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No no. 24/7 lifestylers are not playing a game. Their D/s relationship is power exchange for the benefit of both, for growth and success in life. Subs need direction, their Masters/Mistresses love to give it. A good Master/Mistress is all up inside their sub partner's head, for the benefit of the sub. Some couples have contracts where the sub has to keep a journal with all their deepest thoughts and needs and desires fully documented, so that the M can read it and know exactly what is going on, to be better able to direct the sub to live in a healthy productive way. It's the opposite of abuse.
 
Magdlyn said:
No no. 24/7 lifestylers are not playing a game. Their D/s relationship is power exchange for the benefit of both, for growth and success in life. Subs need direction, their Masters/Mistresses love to give it. A good Master/Mistress is all up inside their sub partner's head, for the benefit of the sub. Some couples have contracts where the sub has to keep a journal with all their deepest thoughts and needs and desires fully documented, so that the M can read it and know exactly what is going on, to be better able to direct the sub to live in a healthy productive way. It's the opposite of abuse.
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I never said it was abuse. In fact, I was trying to express the opposite: that both partners do it because they find doing it is fun.

I'm aware that our fun pursuits, if worth doing, aren't fun all the time. I am a professional musician now, but of couse all through my childhood and teenage years, I was learning to play violin. I loved it and it was fun, but it is also frustrating and can be very hard work. It takes many hours a day, and the kind of discipline and commitment where you're thinking about it all the time. But it felt worth it, because of the fun.

I don't see how I've just belittled lifestyle D/s to see it in the same vein. I just see lifestylers as more hardcore (less amateur) players of the D/s game. I don't think you understand that I think a game or a hobby can be very serious, life-changing stuff.
 
24/7 power exchange isn't a game.

Would you call a traditional MF couple, like from olden days up to the mid 1960s, where the wife has promised to "obey" her husband and defer to his final decision, game players? Or just following what they think is the proper, even Biblical template?

Ds is kind of like that, only spelled out, not as God's plan, but as a choice made by 2 empowered loving rational beings. (And of course, the sub can be male and the Domme female.) BDSMers, like poly people, seem to be forced to have more insight into themselves and their relationships than mono MF couples.

Comparing the dynamics of a loving relationship to a hobby seems just a bit dismissive. Calling it just "fun" is kinda ridiculous, imo.
 
Magdlyn said:
24/7 power exchange isn't a game.

Would you call a traditional MF couple, like from olden days up to the mid 1960s, where the wife has promised to "obey" her husband and defer to his final decision, game players? Or just following what they think is the proper, even Biblical template?

Ds is kind of like that, only spelled out, not as God's plan, but as a choice made by 2 empowered loving rational beings. (And of course, the sub can be male and the Domme female.) BDSMers, like poly people, seem to be forced to have more insight into themselves and their relationships than mono MF couples.

Comparing the dynamics of a loving relationship to a hobby seems just a bit dismissive. Calling it just "fun" is kinda ridiculous, imo.
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No, I wouldn't call an old-fashioned couple game players. They legitimately thought that the woman was inferior in intellect and ability to the man. I would call that misogyny.

My impression of modern D/s couples is that they don't think one partner is inferior than the other. They take on these roles because they like them, find them comforting, get off on them, etc. and decide together to embark on the D/s dynamic, knowing they are equal partners in the relationship.
 
MichelleZed said:
No, I wouldn't call an old-fashioned couple game players. They legitimately thought that the woman was inferior in intellect and ability to the man. I would call that misogyny.
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OK, well, there might have been plenty of evidence the woman was the man's intellectual equal or better, but they behaved as if this wasn't true, because the Bible said (in the first few verses of Genesis, and backed up elsewhere) woman was made to serve and obey the man, and be submissive to his will and direction. Even if they both know he's a cute well meaning (or not so well meaning) dunderhead and she's got an IQ of 140.

My impression of modern D/s couples is that they don't think one partner is inferior than the other. They take on these roles because they like them, find them comforting, get off on them, etc. and decide together to embark on the D/s dynamic, knowing they are equal partners in the relationship.
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Right. So, it's not a game. It's a legitimate relationship dynamic.

And even if you're a "just in the bedroom" BDSMer, or "just at play parties," it doesn't need to be seen as a game. It might be seen as just fun to some. It might be a genuine need or desire, that makes one feel complete, fulfilled and whole, to others. Savvy?
 
MichelleZed said:
D/s is essentially a game, right? People do it for funsies. Those that do it just in the bedroom are casual about their gaming, and those that "lifestyle" it are more hardcore gamers. :) That's how I think about it.
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MichelleZed said:
I know, but one always takes one's hobbies way too seriously.
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MichelleZed said:
You keep saying "just a game" and I've never said that. I think we are just using the term "game" differently, that's all.
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I guess. I guess an obsessed artist would be a "hardcore serious gamer" in your book. Picasso and Van Gogh painted as a "hobby," which they took too seriously?

24/7 lifestylers are hardcore gamers, not just two people practicing a relationship dynamic out of deep love and mutual growth? "For funsies?"
 
I would hope that we are, at least in part, in any relationship for funsies.

And yes, of course I see a similarity between a hardcore gamer and a career artist. I am an artist, and I just compared gaming to my own violin playing just a few posts back. Obviously, not everything is the same, but meaningful parallels can be drawn: the commitment it takes, the constant preoccupation of one's mind, the way it shapes your life in a way that it doesn't for someone who only does it a few hours a week. The way that we do it anyway, even on days when we're tired or we're sick of it or it isn't working.

Every pursuit works on a spectrum, and there are sort of "amateurs" and "professionals" at it. And yes, I *do* add D/s--or actually all of BDSM--into my list of pursuits that can be treated seriously or casually--just like gaming, or art.

Gaming spectrum:
I played King's Quest with my wife when it came out. <===Casual
I have discussions with my friends while being my D&D character. <===Hardcore

Art spectrum:
I take a pottery class on Wednesdays. <===Casual
It feels like my whole body dances on stage even when I'm sleeping. <===Hardcore

D/s spectrum:
Sometimes, in bed, I like my husband to pretend he's my teacher and discipline me. <===Casual
My husband wears a collar and follows a contract we drew up 24/7. <===Hardcore

Not everyone has the gumption to do things hardcore. I think you underestimate how truly noble, how arduous, I consider our pursuit of funsies to be!

But anyone on the outside, any non-hardcore gamers, so to speak, can't possibly see why we'd do it. They think we're "taking our hobbies too seriously", and, the thing is... perhaps we are. Sometimes, when things are hard, I wonder why I'm doing this and think that perhaps the casuals have the right idea. Haven't you ever had similar doubts... thoughts of giving it up, taking a break, not guiding your partner's every thought or move, because it would be easier? But we press on in the end, because of the funsies.

Look, I realize that "funsies" was probably a pretty flippant word to use, and I apologize for being glib. I hope you can now take my full meaning.

My main point stands. I just read a few pages of people who said that they understand why a couple would do D/s in the bedroom, but they can't imagine why they would do it for hours, or all day, or let it take over their relationship. Well, of course they don't understand. They're just not hardcore.
 
I agree the kink has broad range of interest/dynamics/reasons, etc. But I was only finally able to accept it when I internalized that people do it because they WANT to. If someone hates being in the lifestyle, they won't do it, or they're being abused. It's not all always fun and games, but ultimately, it's something we do because we gain a lot of positive things from it, whether that be pure pleasure, fun, cathartic release, emotional needs, sexual needs, etc. I've found that a lot of my play can be extremely fun, although it runs the spectrum. I feel like I agree with MZ, not that we should be flippant, but that we do it because it adds good things to our lives, whether on a casual or serious basis.
 
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