Honesty in poly

M

Moonmama

New member
Namaste! So nice to be here.

I have been in poly relationships since I was 15, and I have always been super happy, confident and open about those relationships with everyone.

I'm now in a marriage with my husband, Rob, and have a poly partner, Bud, who has been in the closet about his polyamory. He has never been in an open poly relationship, so he always cheated.

Bud had a girlfriend when we met. He fell in love with both Rob and me. He now has learned about poly and sees that there are other types of deep spiritual relationships outside of the "norm" that don't have to involve limitations of monogamy.

However he still has a "non-poly" girlfriend (Sally) who is in the dark about what has been going on. She was going to be moving away, but now is staying, and so now I'm in the place of feeling uncomfortable that there is darkness in what was going to be moving into the light very soon. By no means do I want Bud to end it with her, I just want him to be honest with her. He feels it would make things hard for her.

I have never been in a poly relationship where there wasn't openness and honesty, so this perplexes me.

The three of us are pregnant, I might add.

I'm not a controlling-type person either, and am not looking to force Bud's hand, nor am I a pushover. I believe in the divine unfolding of things. Lying does not resonate with me. I have been honest about my relationship and pregnancy with most of my friends, but there is a small group of mutual friends that I have to lie to at this point. I would like some feedback, if anyone has the time. <3

In love and light,
Moonmama
 
I'll be completely straightforward. Bud is acting like a coward. He says he doesn't want to make things hard for Sally. Okay... you know what's really really hard? Finding out you've been deceived in an ongoing fashion by someone you love.

This is deeply unfair to her on several levels. Let's take just one -- STD risk. Right now, Sally has every reason to believe her risk is low to non-existent, because she believes she and Bud are monogamous. However she is wrong about that. She should get the chance to accurately evaluate the level of risk she is taking on so she can decide what's right for her.

I'm not big on ultimatums, but in this case I would issue one to Bud. It's not fair to you and Rob to expect you to be involved in this demeaning and dangerous duplicity. This isn't some situation where Bud had no choice but to go behind his cold and cruel wife's back in order to maintain contact with his children... he's just doing the wrong thing because it's easier. If he's willing to do that, what might he be lying to the two of you about?

Bud has to come clean with Sally.
 
I agree with Annabellemore.

To me, the degree to which people are honest or not honest defines their basic character. And if somebody is lying to one person about something so important, I just assume they are or will lie to me about important things, as well.

And frankly I have not a lick of patience with dishonesty. It's cowardice. Bud can rationalize it all he wants to make himself feel better about why he's lying, but he's deceiving himself, and her.
 
I do understand that pov, but the part that is hard for me is that I don't personally think that anyone has the ability to "cause me harm" or "cause another harm," unless the other person is giving their power away and identifying with the 3rd density "physicality" and the ego. So while I know that should Bud choose "lie to me," it is not me he is lying to, but himself, and I cannot be harmed.

I do love and enjoy my physical body, but I know I am not the body, nor the ego. This is why any "threat" of dishonesty in my relationship with him is not threatening. I accept him where he is in his process.

The dilemma I experience is when I know that both Bud and Sally are still at the point where they believe another person can possibly cause them to suffer. It is in this way that he believes he can cause her suffering. She believes he can cause her suffering. And you who replied believe that he can also cause all of us suffering. While I know this is not truth, they don't! I guess I'm looking for spiritual advice on this poly situation.
 
Moonmama said:
I do understand that pov, but the part that is hard for me is that I don't personally think that anyone has the ability to "cause me harm" or "cause another harm" unless the other person is giving their power away and identifying with the 3rd density "physicality" and the ego. So while I know that should he choose "lie to me" it is not me he is lying to but himself, and I cannot be harmed. I do love and enjoy my physical body, but I know I am not the body nor the ego. This is why any "threat" of dishonesty in my relationship with him is not threatening. I accept him where he is in his process. The dilemma I experience is when I know that both Bud and Sally are still at the point where they believe another person can possibly cause them to suffer. It is in this way that he believes he can cause her suffering, she believes he can cause her suffering, and you who replied believe that he can also cause all of us suffering. While I know this is not truth, they don't! I guess I'm looking for spiritual advice on this poly situation.
Click to expand...

If Bud and Sally both believe that they can cause each other suffering, then that is their reality. They have given each other that power, and he is abusing that trust by keeping her in the dark. I'm glad to hear that he is not able to cause you harm, since you have not given him the power to do so. Most people, however, would be hurt if someone they loved and trusted to be honest with them was deceiving them. Personally, I think that he should either end it with her (since it sounds like he was waiting for her to move away so it would just fizzle out) or at the very least, someone should let her in on what is going on before this baby comes into the world.
 
Bud was dating another woman when he met Sally, and then he was dating other women when they were first together, which she knew all about, and that he was always like that before. But somehow they ended up creating a monotonous relationship which obviously isn't. He had a date the other day which he was playing off to her that it was, but she knew anyway. Which is I suppose why this is coming up. Basically, she already knows, so I don't see why he is so scared to say something.
 
Lololol!!! I totally meant monogamous not monotonous oh gee whiz lol my iPhone autocorrect has intuitive powers ;)
 
Hi Moonmama,

I would think of it in terms of personal integrity and an obligation to self-care, then, if you want to think in ethical terms. By participating in something that someone else will perceive as harm to them (even if you do not) then you are morally implicated in that harm.

Consider the case of someone who forcibly converts another person to their religion. The converter thinks that this is benefiting the person by converting them to the one true religion and saving their soul. The person being coerced perceives themselves to be harmed by the coercion and the forced suppression of their own chosen beliefs and culture. You can make an ethical case that it is the perception of the person being harmed that is most important.

A child restricted in their behaviour for their own safety might disagree, but their reduced capacity to make decisions is a factor there.

Sally might make different (and better, for her) choices in regards to Bud if she knew what the real deal was, and Bud is depriving her of that opportunity.

In terms of obligation to self care, I agree with the others that people who lie to their lovers, lie to their lovers, and Bud will likely be dishonest to you in the future. You may wish to think of this situation as a test of his integrity, so you have an accurate picture of how he behaves.
 
Moonmama said:
Basically, she already knows so I don't see why he is so scared to say something...
Click to expand...

Because Bud feels what he's doing is wrong and doesn't want to either lose her, or have her be mad at him, or have her see him as a liar and a cheat.

He wants to do whatever he wants, and have no repercussions from it. He knows if she KNEW what was going on (yes, she might know deep down, but I mean out in the open knew), that he most likely would lose her. And so it's easier for HIM to get what he wants by lying to her.
 
Moonmama said:
I do understand that pov, but the part that is hard for me is that I don't personally think that anyone has the ability to "cause me harm" or "cause another harm" unless the other person is giving their power away and identifying with the 3rd density "physicality" and the ego. So while I know that should he choose "lie to me" it is not me he is lying to but him, and I cannot be harmed. I do love and enjoy my physical body but I know I am not the body nor the ego. This is why any "threat" of dishonesty in my relationship with him is not threatening. I accept him where he is in his process. The dillema I experience is when I know that both him and her are still at the point where they believe another person can possibly cause them to suffer. It is in this waythat he believes he can cause her suffering, she believes he can cause her suffering and you who replied believe that he can also cause all of us suffering. While I know this is not truth, they don't! I guess I'm looking for spiritual advice on this poly situation.
Click to expand...

If he gives her an STD from his "other relationships" he will be directly causing her to suffer.

No amount of "rising above her ego" will keep her from suffering physically, perhaps for the rest of her life because of that.
 
Minxxa said:
Because HE feels what he's doing is wrong and doesn't want to either lose her, or have her be mad at him or have her see him as a liar and a cheat.

He wants to do whatever he wants, and have no repercussions from it. He knows if she KNEW what was going on (yes she might know deep down, but I mean out in the open knew), that he most likely would lose her. And so it's easier for HIM to get what he wants by lying to her.
Click to expand...

Wow do I ditto this. And I'm living it. :( (No babies on the way, tho).

You say "we're" pregnant... does this mean the paternity is not known? If I were the girlfriend I'd be PISSED.:mad:
 
He's not worried about losing her as they have both already determined that the relationship is coming to an end when she moves away, which she is choosing to do for no other reason than she wants to. She is currently employed here with TWO jobs and has her bf here. He is wanting to have it end on good terms.
 
Moonmama said:
He's not worried about losing her as they have both already determined that the relationship is coming to an end when she moves away, which she is choosing to do for no other reason than she wants to. She is currently employed here with TWO jobs and has her bf here. He is wanting to have it end on good terms.
Click to expand...

MM,

He wants to end it with her in the dark. Easier for him but not the best thing for him, for her, or for you or your husband.

I realize you adore this man, and want him in your life, with Rob and the baby. However, we know people by how they act, not what they say. Bud's actions are disconcerting, at best. Are you not concerned about this pattern recurring in your lives together?
 
This man is not polyamory, if you ask me, and nor are you, if you willingly entered into this situation with him. Maybe in orientation, but not in lifestyle. This is cheating, hands down. It's very black and white to me; non-monogamy without consent, knowledge, honest and open communication in a relationship is cheating... Non-monogamy that is responsible and considerate with ethics such as empathy, integrity, etc., is polyamory.

If you want to know more about what others have said on this, then check some of the threads found in a search in the tags for "lessons" and "foundations."

Sorry, but "rising above one's ego" just doesn't convince me here. It sounds like a cop-out to being invested in someone. To me, that means a person has not invested or been moved by a person in terms of bonding. Sally has possibly bonded with Bud, and he has taken her for a ride by not being responsible in his communication. His sole concern is with himself.

It sounds more like you are saying that Sally doesn't have a right to own her emotions if she finds out. I would consider that emotionally abusive, actually. If not, then it makes me think that you are finding a way to justify his actions in order to sleep okay at night.

"Rising above one's ego" is what I would consider as being a flake and irresponsible. I find it more egotistical than acknowledging that we all have egos and that that is healthy. He sounds like a flake to me. And yeah, if he is a flake and a liar to her, he will be to everyone. Once a cheater gets away with lying and flaking-out of communication, they always do, until they get caught. I dunno. Maybe that's okay with you. It certainly would turn me off.

Have you had a child before? They teach you something about ego and how important it is to have one. Ego is natural and healthy. I think, the quest is for me to balance my ego with empathy. Something Bud is clueless about, by the sound of it.

Have you ever been cheated on in the way he is cheating on Sally? Have you deeply loved and cared for someone and had them destroy your trust of anyone because you learned that everything you knew was a lie?

I suggest you take a look at some of the threads found under the tag "cheating" in the search engine too. It might help to find some empathy for this woman.

No one deserves to be treated with so much disrespect. I don't care what she has done or who she is. Everyone deserves honesty and consideration. Without those basic things, there is no love in the world, and no hope of anyone ever healing from the damage we cause each other. I suggest that making that your spiritual goal is healthier than the "rising above your ego" goal.
 
Last edited:
You and Rob are also at risk. For example, since Bud is not communicating about affairs or sex with Sally, who is to say that she is not also 'cheating' or practicing non-monogamy without Bud's knowledge? I find this a possibility since you say "she knows," but it is still not discussed in the open. This potentially raises the STD risk for everyone involved, since there is basically no communication. Not to mention the fast-coming fall-out drama I foresee if something doesn't happen.

As stated by others, this also brings to light several psychological issues Bud has with the idea of polyamory. He sees it as a dirty thing. This is definitely worthy of your discussion, because it relates directly to you. You can encourage his and Sally's perception of ethical non-monogamy to change to something positive, encourage honesty, and make choices for yourself based on boundaries that you and Rob agree on.
 
For once I agree with RedPepper. Bud needs to tell Sally now that he has been having unprotected sex with you and Rob, and may be the biological father of your child. He is being very selfish and cowardly. All four of you, you, Rob, Bud and Sally, need to be tested now, and so does anyone else you all have had sex with!
 
redpepper said:
Bud is not poly and neither are you if you willingly entered into this situation with him. Maybe in orientation, but not in lifestyle. This is cheating, hands down. Its very black and white to me; non-monogamy without consent, knowledge, honest and open communication in a relationship is cheating... Non-monogamy that is responsible and considerate with ethics such as empathy, integrity etc. is poly.

Sorry, but "rising above ones ego" just doesn't convince me here. It sounds like a cop-out to being invested in someone. To me that means a person has not invested or been moved by a person in terms of bonding. Sally has possibly bonded with Bud and he has taken her for a ride by not being responsible in his communication. His sole concern is himself.

It sounds more like you are saying she doesn't have a right to own her emotions if she finds out. I would consider that emotionally abusive, actually. If not, then it makes me think that you are finding a way to justify his actions in order to sleep okay at night.

"Rising above one's ego" is what I would consider as being a flake and irresponsible. I find it more egotistical than acknowledging that we all have egos and that that is healthy. Bud sounds like a flake to me. And yeah, if he is a flake and a liar to Sally, he will be to everyone. Once a cheater gets away with lying and flaking out of communication, they always do until they get caught. Maybe that's okay with you. I certainly would turn me off.

Have you had a child before? They teach you something about ego and how important it is to have one. Ego is natural and healthy. The quest is to balance my ego with empathy. Something Bud is clueless about...

Have you ever been cheated on in the way he is? Have you deeply loved and cared for someone and had them destroy your trust of anyone because you learned that everything you knew was a lie? I suggest you take a look at some of the threads found under the tag "cheating" in the search engine too. It might help to find some empathy for this woman. No one deserves to be treated with so much disrespect. I don't care what she has done or who she is. Everyone deserves honesty and consideration. Without those basic things, there is no love in the world and no hope of anyone ever healing from the damage we cause each other. I suggest that making that your spiritual goal is more healthy rather than the "rising above your ego" goal.
Click to expand...

RP, this is REALLY good. Clearly you've been around awhile. :)

And I am sure Mags was just sayin.' :p You two both have a lot of wisdom to share. Neither of you candy-coats much! It's ok to disagree sometimes, too.

MM, Bud's lies are hurting Sally. And all of you. He needs to stop being a coward and make a decision to live an honest life. Not like you can force him to man-up, but I'm sending out some hope for you that he will. Or at least I hope she moves away soon! :rolleyes:
 
Bud could be having sex with other people unprotected without telling you, since he doesn't have the integrity to tell Sally. That's a problem, ESPECIALLY for you, since you're pregnant.

Think about it in terms of your child. Do you want your child to be taught that the truth is meaningless and that people you love don't deserve your honesty?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top