The pace of the one who is struggling most

[MonoVCPHG]

I think the problems that we often see with some people's situations of "going at the pace of the one who struggles most," here and on other forums, can usually be attributed to one of several reasons:

• one partner "moves forward" without truly getting agreement from the other, and essentially tells them to "suck it up";
• the partner wanting change coerces the other to go along with it, even though they don't really want to, and makes the changes before their partner is ready to accept them;
• the "moving forward" partner gets impatient and jumps ahead of where they agreed to be, breaks boundaries, etc., and then blames the other for keeping things dragging on too long; or
• the "struggling" partner is fearful or insecure and deliberately slows things down to prevent any more change from happening, even though they agreed and recognize the value of whatever those changes are.

But implicit in the concept of "going at the pace of the one who struggles most" is that there has been agreement to do so. One of the basic defining characteristics of polyamory is that it is consensual, so if there isn't consent by all parties, then the whole "going at the pace" thing flies out the window and is just one person giving lip service and having their own way.

Excellent points, NYC! I think you nailed the reasons. You are right that there has to be an initial understanding/agreement about what "moving forward" is in order for this to be a valid approach. Sometimes people assume they know where things are going but without extreme clarity that can be misinterpreted. I think it is also important to really push the partner who doesn't want change to be clear about what they do want. At least then you know what you are really dealing with and can decide if it is worth trying to move forward or simply abandon ship.

 

[AnotherConfused]

One of the basic defining characteristics of polyamory is that it is consensual...

Obviously this is true, but I'm trying to get my mind around this. In terms of polyamory as a relationship structure, it implies consent, but when it comes to polyamory as a personality trait (for lack of a better term) it just happens regardless, from my experience. I love other men whether my husband agrees to it or not. Heck, I love them whether I agree to it or not! Life would be simpler if I didn't.

And monogamy (as a relationship structure) also requires mutual consent. It's something I agreed to informally at the beginning of our relationship, and formally when we married, but lately I haven't been able to stick to that agreement, at least emotionally, any more. So we got stuck in the no man's land where I couldn't consent to monogamy and he couldn't consent to polyamory, until we worked out this compromise that seems to feel right for both of us. It wouldn't surprise me if ten years down the road we have shifted again, either back towards monogamy or further towards polyamory.

I just want to mention, AC, that I think you have been really thoughtful and careful about addressing this with your husband. And maybe just having a harmonious marriage was the "shared goal" in this.

Yes! And I think that's what moving "forward" is all about. Moving to that place where we are happiest, wherever that ends up being right now.

 

[AnotherConfused]

I think it is also important to really push the partner who doesn't want change to be clear about what they do want.

This was so extremely key in getting to our point of resolution! We had both been feeling short-changed by each other, until we finally realized that we were trying to meet each other's needs by giving each other what we wanted for ourselves. The old "Golden Rule" just didn't work, because no matter how much affection and sexual interest I showed him, he still didn't feel like I was spending enough time tutoring our children or improving our home, and no matter how hard he worked for our family, I still didn't feel like he was showing me enough desire and romance. When we got down to "I want to feel your love and this is what I mean by that," everything started falling into place. Then we figured out that I can give my husband what he wants (playing my violin with the girls, staying off the computer when they are home) and still have what I was asking for (affection and emotional connection, from him and with Colin and Luke). Happiness abounds!

 

[IndieSolo]

... I'm trying to get my mind around this. In terms of polyamory as a relationship structure, it implies consent, but when it comes to polyamory as a personality trait (for lack of a better term) it just happens regardless, from my experience. I love other men whether my husband agrees to it or not -heck, I love them whether I agree to it or not! Life would be simpler if I didn't.

Well, hmm, for myself, I view polyamory as a relationship structure or practice. I don't see it as a personality trait or orientation like gender, though I think it's pretty obvious that human beings have a huge capacity to love many people. If I say I am polyamorous, I don't mean that it is part of my personality; I just mean that I choose to practice polyamory.

As far as consent goes, I think that really can only be applied to the practice of polyamory as a structure or approach to relationships. It is true that no amount of permission or control from anyone else (or ourselves) can keep us from loving. Many, many swingers have discovered that, for example, they can't prevent love from happening. But you could say you gave yourself consent to love someone other than your partner! Some people won't even allow themselves to feel that and they bury it.

And monogamy (as a relationship structure) also requires mutual consent.

Good point.

 

[MorningTwilight]

For myself, I view polyamory as a relationship structure or practice. I don't see it as a personality trait or orientation like gender, though I think it's pretty obvious that human beings have a huge capacity to love many people. If I say I am polyamorous, I don't mean that it is part of my personality; I just mean that I choose to practice polyamory.

There is probably something analogous to the Kinsey Scale for this. For me, it's most definitely a personality trait. If I say that I am polyamorous, I mean that it is part of my personality, whether I practice it or not.

As far as consent goes, I think that really can only be applied to the practice of polyamory as a structure or approach to relationships. It is true that no amount of permission or control from anyone else (or ourselves) can keep us from loving. Many, many swingers have discovered that, for example, they can't prevent love from happening. But you could say you gave yourself consent to love someone other than your partner! Some people won't even allow themselves to feel that and they bury it.

And they suffer as a result. Repressing part of yourself always comes at a price.

 

[HumbleBee]

Thanks for a nice read

I've followed this thread with much interest and joy, and I feel so happy to see the love and wisdom shared between AC vs hubby, and AC vs commentors.

I'm glad to be a part of a community with such kindness and insightfulness.

@AC: I deeply respect the way you have been dealing with your situation and I've enjoyed following your thought processes. I find you've really tried to understand hubby's feelings/thoughts and reproduce them here without passing judgement. You sound like a wise person to me.

The different comments teach me a lot. I am grateful for Mono's posts, too. I've felt much like that in my relation, that am pushing us in a direction where I've been unsure if I was the only one REALLY wanting to go. I see (and know) that one needs to communicate needs, desires, etc., etc., and figure if both are on the same track.

Also wanted to say that am with MorningTwilight and AC on the "definition" of polyamorous, which might be a thread on it's own, and probably already is (?). To me, "polyamorous" is the emotional side of it, the fact that I fall in love with more than one, more so than acting on it.

I wish you all the best, AC, and look forward to following your journey.

Aaaaaaaand, I wish there was a "Like" button here, because there is so much I like to comment on, or say I agree to, but it will take hours to copy and comment

 

[BrigidsDaughter]

This:

Aaaaaaaand, I wish there was a "Like" button here, cause there is so much I like to comment on, or say I agree to, but it will take hours to copy and comment.

 

[AnotherConfused]

I've followed this thread with much interest and joy, and I feel so happy to see the love and wisdom shared between AC vs hubby and Ac vs commentors.

I'm glad to be a part of a community with such kindness and insightfulness.

@AC: I deeply respect the way you have been dealing with your situation and I've enjoyed following your thought processes. I find you've really tried to understand hubby's feelings/ thoughts and reproduce them here without passing judgement. You sound like a wise person to me.

I wish you all the best,and look forward to follow your journey.

Thank you! I try to be respectful in what I write here, even if I have my tantrums and selfish outbursts at home.

Yesterday I had my first visit with Luke since my marriage boundaries were redefined. Funny, but the night before, it was Colin writing to ask how long I'd be gone and confessing to some jealousy or envy. We agreed it was amusing that he preferred me coming home at night to the bed I share with my husband, the one I have real sex with, rather than staying long with Luke, where we don't have sex. Colin said he couldn't understand his feelings even though he was the one feeling him. I don't think he was upset at all, just maybe envious. He's so far away.

If anyone has ever experienced 20 years of attraction to a friend without acting on it (other than kisses and words), and then finally having some moments (ok, hours) of intimacy, you might understand what yesterday's visit felt like for me. Oh my.

The only bad moment was when his 16-yr old son, who'd been sleeping late, suddenly walked into the living room where we were lying on the couch, clothed, not kissing, but definitely tangled up together. I had promised my husband discretion, so I felt horrible about this. Luke didn't think his son would think anything of it, but after that he was stomping loudly or talking to himself out loud whenever he entered the room, so I know he assumed we were up to more. (He'd been asked to go out for the day so we could "talk," but he didn't wake up until something like 2pm.) I guess after I left, Luke spoke to him very briefly, saying that we weren't doing anything that wasn't ok with my husband. I hope that was enough.

When I got home, I freaked out a bit because my husband looked a little sad and distant, but my daughters told me he had only been that way for the past couple of hours, after they discovered our sick pet chicken had died. When he came to bed at night everything was clearly a-ok. For me, I think a teensy bit of jealousy feeds my sexual flames. I don't know if he was feeling any jealousy, but there were flames a-plenty!

So I guess all is still well in my little world. What is a V if the hinge has 3 partners instead of two? A Y?

 

[AnnabelMore]

We agreed it was amusing that he preferred me coming home at night to the bed I share with my husband, the one I have real sex with, rather than staying long with Luke, where we don't have sex. Colin said he couldn't understand his feelings, even though he was the one feeling him. I don't think he was upset at all, just maybe envious. He's so far away.

Actually, this makes perfect sense to me. My gf and I are still working on getting back to a sexual place in our relationship after the birth of her baby. I was glad to hear that she and her husband were having sex again, but was terribly jealous at the thought that she might possibly hook up with a female friend (which turned out to be all in my head, but still).

Your situation is different, of course, but I think the same basic thing is happening. Being jealous of your husband would make no sense at all for Colin, because he knows that you and your husband have a special relationship with a unique place in your life that well predates the expression of intimacy between you and him. It's like, it's on such a different level that there's no reason to be jealous. Whereas your relationship with Luke is quite similar to his relationship with you (and it sounds like it's easier for you and Luke to be alone together, to boot!) so it's easier to draw a direct correlation and feel put out at any potential disparities.

To use an irreverent analogy, imagine a priest. He sees the pope's deeply personal and unique connection to god and he's inspired, but he sees a fellow priest with a (seemingly) closer relationship to god than him and he finds himself a little jealous because the other priest is on the same level as him, and therefore it's frustrating that he can't do as well as his fellow, whereas he'd never dream of comparing himself to the pope.

 

[dingedheart]

16-yr boys aren't known for their discretion. In fact, the kid's friends may have been notified before you and Luke could get your shirts tucked back in.

What about the kid's mother? How discreet is she? That might be big news around the kitchen table.

 

[SourGirl]

And they suffer as a result. Repressing part of yourself always comes at a price.

Actually, that price can be a worthy investment, not always negative. It can teach people to love better.

There seems to be this never-ending thought process in poly, that if you feel something for someone, you are now a slave to the emotion, and everyone just has to understand that, that doing anything other then promoting that love is a suppression. That is a cop-out. There are many times we feel love for people and it may not be a good idea to pursue it. Sometimes this happens when we love someone unavailable. Sometimes it happens when people love unsuitable people. Sometimes it is unrequited.

Most people struggle with the lack of recognition for their love. If you learn how to deal with it, you can then move ahead logically. Not everyone you have feelings for is suitable to pursue.

How that ties into the topic?

Love is a 2-way street. That street intersects with many other streets. Going at the pace of the one struggling the most, is love within itself.

If you want a struggling partner to be authentic and truly work on things, then make sure you are doing the same. I see many cases where someone is suspicious that their partner is going slow on purpose, yet they haven`t really been authentic themselves. They have a feeling and just run with it. Always trying to maneuver for that feel-good opportunity, yet forgetting their existing partner, as if NRE is some type of power trip that the rest of the world should just accept. They forget to look after the loving relationship they already have.

If you act like love is a chess game, where you move partners around, then expect slower partners to do the same. You reap what you sow.

 

[AnotherConfused]

Love is a 2-way street. That street intersects with many other streets. Going at the pace of the one struggling the most, is love within itself.

If you want a struggling partner to be authentic and truly work on things, then make sure you are doing the same. I see many cases, where someone is suspicious that their partner is going slow on purpose. Yet, they haven`t really been authentic themself. They have a feeling and just run with it. Always trying to maneuver for that feel-good opportunity, yet forgetting their existing partner. As if NRE is some type of power-trip that the rest of the world should just accept. They forget to look after the loving relationship they already have.

These are good points, Sourgirl, and they go back to my original question.

In my marriage, my husband feels strongly monogamous and I feel strongly polyamorous. When I first realized what was going on with my own feelings, I tried to stop them. In my case, though, I was falling in love with a long-time friend Luke, and I wasn't willing to throw out years and years of friendship completely, cutting ties. So the feelings remained in my life, and I worked on containing them, interacting only in ways appropriate to my monogamous marriage. This was a struggle, but thankfully over time, the NRE gave way to ORE, which helps dissipate that intense longing. Still, that kind of love is also hard to ignore. Meanwhile, my husband had about a year to digest the fact that I love Luke, and that it didn't at all change my desire to stay married.

When I found myself falling for Colin this spring, the NRE pull was huge, of course, and I did everything I could to put the breaks on, short of telling him to cut contact. Maybe the loving thing to do for my husband would have been just that, but I knew enough of myself by then that I was sure I'd fall for someone else, and someone else, and someone else, as long as I kept this empty space in my life where I really feel someone needs to be. (Like a mother of one who wants a second child; she's going to get wistful at every baby she meets.)

So for me, after a couple of years of struggling over Luke, and a half year of struggling over Colin, and half a year debilitated by the painful condition of inflammation in the sac around my heart, I just felt like I'd struggled as much as I could take, holding back my desire to love. And my husband had done his best to ignore the whole thing, all the while. His pace was inertia, and that didn't feel loving.

I'm really glad I made that push, last month, even though I thought for a while that we weren't going to make it. Now, after months of mostly being bedridden, my heart sac inflammation has completely gone away. I actually haven't felt any pain since we resolved this. I've stopped the 12 ibuprofen a day and all the other drugs and herbs. I think I had internalized my emotional struggle until I was that physically sick. (At its worst, it hurt to laugh, it hurt to talk, it hurt to sit up.)

Maybe a more loving, caring wife could have kept going, devoting herself more single-mindedly to marriage and her husband's happiness and ignoring the rest of her needs, but I am not that strong.

What we have now makes me ecstatically happy. My husband looks happier too. He doesn't have a sick, resentful, depressed, unfulfilled wife any more. He has a wife who feels complete and sexy and grateful and alive. We have grown closer. I have stopped struggling, and have more energy to love him with. I'm sure there are people who chase after NRE and neglect their current partners, but in my case the only way I could authentically love my husband was to take the chains off my heart and be true to myself first.

 

[AnotherConfused]

Being jealous of your husband would make no sense at all for Colin, because he knows that you and your husband have a special relationship with a unique place in your life that well predates the expression of intimacy between you and he. It's like, it's on such a different level that there's no reason to be jealous. Whereas your relationship with Luke is quite similar to his relationship with you (and it sounds like it's easier for you and Luke to be alone together, to boot!) so it's easier to draw a direct correlation and feel put out at any potential disparities.

I think that's exactly right. Colin has never wanted to be my husband. I think Luke has been jealous of Colin, and C has been jealous of L, because they are both in the same position, on the edges of my life. Luckily, I don't think the jealousy runs strong in either case. They both seem mighty happy with the way things are now.

 

[AnotherConfused]

16-yr boys aren't known for their discretion. In fact, the kid's friends may have been notified before you and Luke could get your shirts tucked back in. What about the kid's mother? How discreet is she? That might be big news around the kitchen table.

Luke said he would not expect his son to say anything about it. I'd like to believe him, but only time will tell. This is where it is fortunate that we live in separate cities, where our friendship circles don't intersect much. I could say the boy's mother is a master at discretion. Luke had no idea she was carrying on an affair with his best friend until the day she announced she was leaving him. She doesn't really know me or my family, though. I think we'll be okay.

 

[SourGirl]

Maybe a more loving, caring wife could have kept going, devoting herself more single-mindedly to marriage and her husband's happiness and ignoring the rest of her needs, but I am not that strong.

I`m not sure how being more loving and more caring gets wrapped around the idea of ignoring one's own needs. Not in any healthy relationship I know of.

There is a difference between moving in a direction of health, and moving in the direction of feel-good opportunities. That is where the crux is, in my mind. People with an 'itch to scratch' do so regardless of the scenario, swinging, poly, whatever. 'Love' becomes this excuse for desires, rather then a ongoing part of loving in an authentic way.

If you took the time to make sure that your wants and desires were viable, and worked through those differences, that is a very different scenario than those playing mind games with each other.

 

[AnnabelMore]

I think there's a big difference between repressing your feelings, which is what NYC was describing, and MT was decrying, and controlling your feelings, which is what SG is advocating. Repressing your feelings means hiding them from yourself and/or those close to you. Controlling your feelings means acknowledging them and dealing with them appropriately (which may well mean not acting on them).

I believe that repressing your feelings can be very bad for your health and stability. That's what AC did for many years by hiding these feelings from her husband. Coming clean was an important step, but it still left her suffering, even though all she was doing at that point was controlling her feelings.

I think the difficult things here were that:

1) She knew her feelings could and would be returned by these men, so it was very different from a situation where you have to control your emotions because the object of your desire will be offended or is somehow unsuitable. In that sort of scenario you can gain some comfort and closure by knowing that it's impossible anyway.

2) She knew she was capable of loving them in a way that would be fulfilling to her without taking away from her marriage, and she knew that she could love them in a completely non-destructive way, if only allowed to do so. In a situation where the only way to act on your feelings is to destroy something else you love, it again becomes easier to gain comfort and closure by just squarely facing the reality and making your choice, but she could see there was a third way.

3) She is naturally polyamorous, it would seem. I know this is a subject of debate on this board, and I think it really is different for different people. Some people, like NYCindie and me, choose to live a polyamorous lifestyle even though we have in the past and could again choose to be mono. You could say we're flexibly amorous. Others, like Mono and Sage and my bf Davis, are fundamentally mono and naturally find their happiness solely in that love style. Yet others, like AC, are fundamentally poly, and naturally find their happiness in actively, openly loving more than one person, and remain unfulfilled when blocked from this possibility. (I hope I haven't offended anyone by using them as an example, just my observations.)

Due to these factors, controlling her feelings to the point of not acting on them became as harmful as repressing them. I would bet money, if there were a way to be sure, that it's no coincidence that her inflammation has ended now that she is free to express her love. I have a close friend who was hospitalized twice for a very similar condition and has been fully healthy ever since she found a job that made her happy and ditched the one that made her miserable.

I think it's worthwhile to note that AC is still controlling her emotions -- she's not sleeping with these men or running off with them -- it's just that for her, completely controlling them was not going to work. I think her story is a great example of responsibly finding the right balance for a complex situation.

 

[AnotherConfused]

Thank you, AnnabelMore. In the most appropriate and harmless way possible, I love you for that.

 

[AnnabelMore]

 

[SourGirl]

I think there's a big difference between repressing your feelings, which is what Nyc was describing and MT was decrying, and controlling your feelings, which is what SG is advocating. Repressing your feelings means hiding them from yourself and/or those close to you. Controlling your feelings means acknowledging them and dealing with them appropriately (which may well mean not acting on them).

I believe that repressing your feelings can be very bad for your health and stability. That's what AC did for many years by hiding these feelings from her husband. Coming clean was an important step, but it still left her suffering even though all she was doing at that point was controlling her feelings.

Rightio Annabel, on the definitions.

Though I was splitting on various points, and tying them together, based on other's responses. My bad.

I think people need to examine 'appropriate' love or healthy feelings, versus those that do more harm then good. When I see constant responses that equate all 'controlled' feelings as repressed, I chip in. I`m not that much of a hippie, I guess.

Towards the OP, the spirit of the post was meant more along the lines of 'Examine how you did things, and if you still feel good, then stop chastising yourself and feeling guilty.'

None of this is easy. No one does it perfectly. It is always a work in progress.

 

[rory]

I think there's a big difference between repressing your feelings, which is what NYC was describing and MT was decrying, and controlling your feelings, which is what SG is advocating. Repressing your feelings means hiding them from yourself and/or those close to you. Controlling your feelings means acknowledging them and dealing with them appropriately (which may well mean not acting on them).

I completely agree with you on that whole post, though I was wondering if the concept of "controlling one's feelings" might be better put as "managing one's feelings" or "controlling one's reactions to their feelings." Just semantics (but hey, I remember you're into that ), since I think there is a common misconception that one can control their feelings, when really all one can do is decide how they react to them and what they do. I did totally get your point, though, semantics aside.