Wife's bf's wife has a cuckquean and SM setup. Dysfunctional?

[KindaPOd]

I thought I'd broaden my horizons and open up on another issue that's been bugging me.

My wife Kate's bf Adam is married. His wife Eve has told me that she is monogamous. The benefit of polyamory for her is that she can watch Adam have sex with other women. The humiliation aspect gets her off. She likes the idea of being inferior.

Kate and I were into BDSM in the past. It sort of lost its edge after a while. I've noticed some similarities between their current relationship and my past relationship.

But from an outside observer's POV, something seems off. The most notable thing is that Adam publicly and privately disrespects Eve in many ways. I won't go into it, but it's pretty obvious. It makes me uncomfortable.

Eve's clearly the masochist and Adam's clearly the sadist. What I'm wondering is whether or not this "disrespect" is part of the SM aspect of their relationship. Can't tell if it's all just play to them. I mean, if it's all consensual and this is what she likes, than there's nothing fishy about it.

But I have quite a bit of experience dealing with abusive marriages. Maybe that's why their marriage seems "off." See, I'm getting a narcissist-codependent vibe from them, a very common dynamic in abusive marriages.

I can't look at their relationship objectively. I'm way too emotionally involved to do that. That's what worries me.

The obvious thing to do would be to take the direct route and ask her. I tried that. There were no clear answers. She skirted around the issue. Why?

What do you think?

If you were in my shoes, what would you do?

 

[dingedheart]

Why do you need to know this? How will it affect you?

 

[SourGirl]

Why do you need to know this?

My guess is he is tackling each thing that puts him off. There is no one reason that he is feeling indifferent. It takes a shitload of seemingly small things to get to this point. A bit of disgust, a dash of disappointment here, a teaspoon of off-putting over there... It all adds up.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

Why do you need to know this?

I would want to know if my wife's boyfriend were abusive, wouldn't you?

 

[SchrodingersCat]

If I were in your shoes, I would probably pursue the matter and get to the bottom of it. Even though it's not your own relationship, it affects you and your wife Kate by proxy.

Side point, sadist/masochist refers to pain, usually physical. What you're describing, if it is BDSM related and not abusive, would be more Dominant/submissive. That's not to say there isn't a sadism/masochism aspect also, but just that the humiliation is not that.

What specifically did you ask Eve? I would probably say something like, "Do you enjoy it when Adam disrespects you in public?"

 

[redpepper]

If Eve skirted around the issue, maybe she thinks it's not your business. Maybe you should ask her directly if this is what she is thinking. She could be trying to politely move you on to something else, hoping you will drop it.

I agree that this is your issue. If they are not willing to talk about what is going on for them, then I would go about it from the perspective of your and Kate's relationship. Adam could start treating Kate the same way. I would suggest discussing with Kate what boundaries she has around being treated that way. Perhaps she needs to make sure that Adam knows her boundaries.

 

[Derbylicious]

How does Adam treat Kate? Is he showing signs of abusive behaviour towards her? I would think that it was much more likely an agreed-upon relationship dynamic between Adam and Eve, if there isn't any evidence of the same kind of behaviour between him and Kate. I would, however, keep an eye on how Kate is doing, and address it with her if he begins mistreating her.

 

[AnnabelMore]

Does Eve seem happy?

 

[Anneintherain]

My wife's bf Adam is married. His wife Eve has told me that she is monogamous. The benefit of polyamory for her is that she can watch her husband have sex with other women. The humiliation aspect gets her off. She likes the idea of being inferior. What do you think? If you were in my shoes, what would you do?

I really don't see how watching her husband having sex with other women is humiliating, unless he's talking about how much better they are while it is happening, or she's crying and miserable the whole time. I don't think one of my partners having sex with somebody else, even in a cuck situation, makes me inferior. And yes, maybe she doesn't want to share her personal business with you. Maybe you asking her about it helps feed her kink for humiliation, for all you know.

I don't get what people get out of cuckolding (more than theoretically) so I don't have any insight on that. I would file this under the "your kink is not my kink" thing and move on.

Exceptions would be:
1. As others have said, if Adam display any of this behavior towards Kate. If so, I'd find it a problem if Kate didn't like it, but was putting up with it. If he is, and Kate likes it, I'd ask her to keep it to herself and away from me. I wouldn't interfere unless I felt the relationship was hurting my partner.

2. Is Kate one of the women who is having sex in front of Eve, to humiliate her? If this is the case, that's something I'd talk to Kate about-- why she does it, how it makes her feel. Maybe you can see if you can make more sense of it. If she is, and it's a big problem for you, but something she wants, then maybe you want to negotiate about it, if she is willing. OR since you say you consider her your secondary now, you might just go with it being none of your business, as long as it's not affecting your relationship with her.

 

[KindaPOd]

Why do you need to know this? How will it affect you?

Damn, that's cold, DH. And I thought I was the cynical bastard. I need to know because I am a giant boy scout.

What specifically did you ask Eve? I would probably say something like, do you enjoy it when Adam disrespects you in public?

I can't remember exactly what I said. But I was specific. "Do you enjoy this? Is he abusing you? Etc."

One thing I do know is that if you ask an abused woman if she is being abused, she's rarely going to say yes.

Or she could think that this is none of my business.

Side point, sadist/masochist refers to pain, usually physical. What you're describing, if it is BDSM related and not abusive, would be more Dominant/submissive.

True. Then they have a D/s relationship, too.

If she skirted around the issue, maybe she thinks it's not your business. Maybe you should ask her directly if this is what she is thinking. She could be trying to politely move you on to something else, hoping you will drop it.

I agree that this is your issue. If they are not willing to talk about what is going on for them, then I would go about it from the perspective of your and Kate's relationship. Adam could start treating Kate the same way. I would suggest discussing with Kate what boundaries she has around being treated that way. Perhaps she needs to make sure that he knows her boundaries.

Right. She could've been telling me to fuck off in a nice way. I would've liked her to say, "I'm sorry, but that's a bit too personal for me to talk about." Instead she sort of trailed off and changed the subject.

Kate is definitely no longer into BDSM. The relationship she has with Adam is relatively vanilla, as far as I know.

 

[KindaPOd]

Is he showing signs of abusive behaviour towards her? I would think that it was much more likely an agreed-upon relationship dynamic between Adam and Eve, if there isn't any evidence of the same kind of behaviour between him and Kate.

No signs of physical abuse. I could be overreacting. Kind of like that other issue of mine: it could go either way.

The thing about abusive spouses is that they come in two flavours. One is incredibly easy to spot. They leave bruises. The neighbours can hear yelling and things being thrown around. They aren't subtle. The other is incredibly two-faced. They know how to maintain their image in public. At home, they are free to do what they want.

The stuff that Adam does in public with Eve is subtle. The average Joe wouldn't notice it. If you've ever been in an abusive relationship, you would notice it.

Does she seem happy?

No, but I wonder if maybe that's just part of their play.

Is Kate one of the women who is having sex in front of Eve to humiliate her? If this is the case, that's something I'd talk to Kate about-- why she does it, how it makes her feel. Maybe you can see if you can make more sense of it. If she is and it's a big problem for you, but something she wants, then maybe you want to negotiate about it, if she is willing. OR since you say you consider her your secondary now, you might just go with it being none of your business, as long as it's not affecting your relationship with her.

Yeah, she's had sex with Adam while Eve has watched.

It should be pretty obvious from my other thread here, but our marriage is in the crapper. I don't care about what Kate gets up to.

 

[IndieSolo]

I don't care about what Kate gets up to.

I don't believe that. It seems there are quite a few things about Kate and your relationship that do bother you, so saying you don't care doesn't quite ring true.

 

[Anneintherain]

I don't care about what Kate gets up to.

Well, if you don't care what Kate gets up to, I guess you do nothing. However, I'm not sure why you're asking us what we think, or what we'd do. If I didn't give a shit what my spouse was doing, I wouldn't bother asking other people what they thought.

If you're asking about abuse, unless somebody is reaching out for help or being obviously abused, it's generally smart to mind your own business. Eve's an adult, after all, and probably knows how to find the resources to get out of a situation if she doesn't want to be in it.

 

[SchrodingersCat]

I can't remember exactly what I said. But I was specific. "Do you enjoy this? Is he abusing you?"

The thing about abusive spouses is that they come in two flavours. One is incredibly easy to spot. They leave bruises. The neighbours can hear yelling and things being thrown around. They aren't subtle. The other is incredibly two-faced. They know how to maintain their image in public. At home, they are free to do what they want.
The stuff that Adam does in public with Eve is subtle. The average Joe wouldn't notice it. If you've ever been in an abusive relationship, you would notice it.

The other component is that abused people don't always realize they're in abusive relationships, especially with emotional/psychological abuse. Throw that into a BDSM scenario, and it easily enables the abuser to say, "This is just part of our S&M play," and for the low self-esteem victim to believe him, despite her feelings that this is wrong or unpleasant.

 

[Sonic]

The other component is that abused people don't always realize they're in abusive relationships, especially with emotional/psychological abuse. Throw that into a BDSM scenario, and it easily enables the abuser to say "this is just part of our S&M play" and for the low self-esteem victim to believe him, despite her feelings that this is wrong or unpleasant.

This.

The general distinction, in my opinion, would be that in a functional D/s relationship the humiliation and power play should be empowering and a positive experience for all parties concerned. If she doesn't seem happy, that would be a huge red flag for me.

I think you should address the issue. What does Kate think about the situation? I think it's a good thing you bring this up.

 

[KindaPOd]

I don't believe that. It seems there are quite a few things about your relationship with Kate that do bother you, so saying you don't care doesn't quite ring true.

One thing that you and I have in common, is that, unless something dramatic happens, we're both going to stick to our guns on this issue. Don't know if that's a good thing or not.

If you're asking about abuse, unless somebody is reaching out for help or being obviously abused, it's generally smart to mind your own business. She's an adult after all, and probably knows how to find the resources to get out of a situation if she doesn't want to be in it.

I don't care about Kate's sexual activities. I do care about a potentially abused woman, especially since they usually aren't in their best states of mind.

You're suggesting that I take the route of apathy? At the very least, I'm going to offer a life-line to her.

The other component is that abused people don't always realize they're in abusive relationships, especially with emotional/psychological abuse. Throw that into a BDSM scenario, and it easily enables the abuser to say "this is just part of our S&M play" and for the low self-esteem victim to believe him, despite her feelings that this is wrong or unpleasant.

That's what I'm worried about. The less subtle abusers tend to vent their stress out on their spouse. The more subtle types know how to manipulate their spouse(s). Abuse is just one form of manipulation. Saying "It's all just part of the Dom/sub relationship" is another.

 

[IndieSolo]

One thing that you and I have in common, is that, unless something dramatic happens, we're both going to stick to our guns on this issue. Don't know if that's a good thing or not.

Huh?? I don't get it.

 

[KindaPOd]

What does Kate think about the situation?

She thinks that asking Eve about it was as deep as I needed to go. But if there is a possibility that she is being abused, then Kate would want to know.

Huh?? I don't get it.

You think that I'm bitter and angry. You also think that I have a huge chip on my shoulder when it comes to Kate and her relationship with Adam.

My guess is that you also think I'm an asshole. But that's just a guess.

I disagree. Except about the asshole bit. That might be true.

We both have strong opinions and it's unlikely that we'll compromise.

 

[HappiestManAlive]

It is entirely possible that both points are true. I don't necessarily think it's healthy, but I've seen BDSM relationships work because one party was flat out abusive - and the other party liked it enough that it didn't matter. In an instance like this, the narcisist/codependant dynamic can function.

The narcissist/abusive asshole threshold is what keeps me from being the Dom Violet wants me to be. The line isn't clear to me, and I'm scared of it.

 

[AnnabelMore]

The narcissist/abusive asshole threshold is what keeps me from being the Dom Violet wants me to be. The line isn't clear to me, and I'm scared of it.

There is a lot of good writing about this out there if you're still interested. A good Dom negotiates with their sub about what is and isn't permissible behavior for the Dom, puts their sub's well-being first, and keeps it in mind at all times, and stops when the sub asks for it to stop. An abusive asshole does none of this.

It's also a matter of sensitivity, of knowing your partner well enough to know if you're enriching their life or degrading it.