My desires don't fit boyfriend's boundries

[SpoofyCups]

Hi. This is my first post.

Since my boyfriend and I got together 2 1/2 years ago, we have been discussing having an open relationship. It's a sensitive topic, as I'm sure you all know, and takes lots of respectful negotiation. Neither of us have yet to act on this, and that's okay. He came very close one time at a bar, but got a weird vibe from the lady and decided not to.

My BF is a very regular straight guy. His reactions and turn-ons tend to be predicable. For example, he likes the idea of me sleeping with a girl, or he'd like to try a threesome. As for an open relationship, he's okay with me fucking a guy casually if I go traveling somewhere. He's probably less comfortable with the guy being from this city, but would still give permission.

The basic rules are: no exes and no one from work.

This has been pretty cool with me, but as time wears on, I'm having to admit to myself that I'm not interested in casual sex! I feel like a prey animal when a male stranger hits on me, but things change quite a bit if I know him at least a little. Sex is usually lousy for me with one-night stands.

I traveled alone in Hawaii for four weeks last year and did not hook up at all. I don't travel that often. I'm a busy full-time working person, so I really don't meet new people that much.

The idea of BF having sex with another woman turns me on quite a bit. But he's very busy too, so the opportunity just doesn't come up, and he doesn't pursue it.

**Enter the OLD FLAME**

Five years ago, I had an interesting and fairly intense emotional relationship with a man for a few months. It's a long story, but we didn't date "normally" because his marriage was exploding at this time. No sex, no touching etc. I fell very hard for him back then, but it crashed and burned.

Now he's back at the place I work; the same place my boyfriend works; the place we all work, in other words.

I thought I had gotten over him, but no no no! The electricity is still there, man. We are dear friends, but he's very very reserved. It's hard to talk about our feelings. It mostly hangs in the air unsaid, which keeps things nicely contained in our professional environment. That is, until I watched his band perform recently and saw the real him-- open, happy, and not afraid to communicate with me about everything. And flirt. Oh, and beer.... Dang!

So now I know for sure he loves me too, but he's not the "cheating type."

I don't know why I bother writing this. There's no way to make this work out, is there? I would just love to have Mr Old Flame as my occasional lover, someone to connect with, and party with, and have that new sexual energy feeling with. Someone I can truly love, but not make future life plans with. My feelings for him go quite deep, but his reserved arm's-length nature means I wouldn't leave my BF for him. I'm quite confident of this.

But they'd have to look each other in the eye. They don't work together directly right now, but they will cross paths sometimes. They do know each other.

Old Flame is not exactly my ex, but we do work in the same place, so this is against my boyfriend's rules.

Having to resist this man again is so unbelievably painful for me. My boyfriend is a stupendous human being and I don't want to fuck it up with him. But after 20 years of serial-monogamist relationships, I know they get stifling after a while. I can foresee a future where I lose interest in sex with him, because we are in a routine. Life just does this to people. Isn't it always the same? The thrill of having this old two-way crush reignited has ramped my sex drive way up again and my BF is benefiting. This is why I think openness can be healthy for a relationship.

Does any of this fit within the definition of polyamory? I'm not sure if I'm looking for advice or just venting. Thanks for reading my long-winded post.

 

[BoringGuy]

Does any of this fit within the definition of polyamory? I'm not sure if I'm looking for advice or just venting. Thanks for reading my long winded post.

Hi, I read your post and don't really have any salient advice. The reason I'm writing is because it fascinates me when someone comes on and says whatever their situation involves and then asks "is this polyamory?" Since you say right afterward that you're not sure what you want from this public audience, can i get you to give me a clue as to why it matters to you whether your situation "fits the defintion of polyamory"? Are you looking for a place to belong? Have you been shunned by other people in non-mainstream/alternative-style relationships that you need to gain validation somewhere? There are other possibilites; I have quite an imagination. I know that people will probably think I'm being a dick for asking these things instead of stroking your hand and cooing free advice at you and telling you to breathe and shit like that. But, there it is.

 

[BreatheDeeply]

If this is what you want, then you should be prepared to be open and communicative with your BF. Tell your BF everything, because he'll know if you're holding back, maybe not consciously, but at some level he'll know you're withholding information. You know your BF deserves this. But you deserve it too.

I made this mistake in my past, not telling my SO about an emotional relationship I had while I was married to her. Big mistake. She has forgiven me, but I never will look at myself the same way. There is a black spot that spoils my self image, and I don't think it will ever go away.

So, be fair to everyone, spill the beans, tell all.

.

 

[SpoofyCups]

Argh! Well thank you, BreatheDeeply. I know you're right about communication. I have many fears of telling BF what's in my head. I'm afraid he'll react badly, then I'll feel awkward whenever bump into my Old Flame guy. I'm afraid BF will feel threatened in a way he doesn't need to.

I'm working this out in my head first, but I'll get there eventually. You're right, he'll probably figure it out soon enough. I already feel like I'm sneaking around a bit.

And Boring Guy, interesting observations. Really. Am I looking for a place to belong? Good question. Probably so, but not in the way you suggest. I've always avoided labels, be they about religion, politics or sexuality, or even how I eat. I'm pretty unsettled sexually. I don't really know what my orientation is. I don't understand why I can never relate to my girlfriends' love dramas. I always feel alone. I haven't been shunned by any alternative groups-- I'm too scared to explore any!

By asking if my thing fits a definition of polyamory, or open relationship, I think I mean it in its most ordinary sense. Maybe I am wondering what the differences are between an open relationship and a poly one. If it's simply casual hookups on one person's part, is that open? Do all members have to be romantically involved to be considered polyamorous? Or can one person in the relationship be in love with two people, while the other isn't? I can look these things up myself, I guess.

Am I an agnostic or an atheist? Who cares? Let's just talk about shit.

I'm hoping to use this situation as a catalyst to explore this somewhat repressed/unrealized sexual understanding of myself. But I'm running into trouble with the idea of juggling the feelings of others. I'm super duper scared to hurt anyone!

I came to talk to the internet because I know my actual (mono) friends will tell me simply, "Don't go there." I need more to work with than that. The opinions of strangers can cultivate new ideas.

 

[GalaGirl]

So you and BF made this agreement for an open relationship to accommodate casual sex:

• Hooking up while traveling is okay.
• Less comfortable with someone being from your city, but would still give permission.
• No exes; no one from work.

After trying it on for a while you find:

• As time wears on, I'm having to admit to myself that I'm not interested in casual sex.

You now want to explore this:

I would just love to have Mr Old Flame as my occasional lover, someone to connect with, and party with, and have that new sexual energy feeling with. Someone I can truly love, but not make future life plans with. My feelings for him go quite deep, but his reserved arm's-length nature means I wouldn't leave my BF for him. I'm quite confident of this.

If this is what you want, and you cannot ethically have that under your current agreements, you could ask BF if he'd be willing to entertain discussion about your new desire, and see if new agreements could be made with.

If yes, yay! If no, you are at a new choice:

• Choose to honor the current agreement, stick with BF, let go of your new want.
• Choose to go with your new want, let go of the BF, and the current agreement.

Not all of these choices are fun to feel, but going with "up-front, honest, respectful to all" could serve you here as you navigate your choices.

HTH!
Galagirl

 

[Marcus]

He'll know if you're holding back, maybe not consciously, but at some level he'll know you're withholding information,

This. If the principle of honesty is important to you, then obviously, you need to open up to your boyfriend.

If the principle of honesty is not important to you, then keep doing what you're doing.

There are consequences either way.

 

[Magdlyn]

Maybe I am wondering what the difference between an open relationship and a poly one is. If it's simply casual hook ups on one persons part, is that open? Do all members have to be romantically involved to be considered polyamorous? Or can one person in the relationship be in love with two people, while the other isn't? I can look these things up myself I guess.

Polyamory is under the umbrella of open relationships. The others are:

Cheating (if one or both members of a couple really know the other is cheating but pretend not to know)

Don't ask, don't tell (where one or both members are having other relationships but it isn't discussed)

Swinging (where one or both both members have casual, non-emotional sex with others)

Polyamory (where one or both members of a couple, or single people, have decided/agreed to have romantic, emotional, and/or sexual relationships with others)

If you are a member of a couple, you may be poly, and your partner may be also poly, or they may be mono. You may, or more likely, may not both be shagging the same person. Being poly does not automatically mean pursuing triad relationships. Generally the idea of FMF sex turns men on, but triad relationships rarely work long-term in real life.

 

[SpoofyCups]

Thank you, everyone. Everything said here was helpful.

GalaGirl, you were able to boil it down so simply!

I do value honesty, but I don't feel like it's the time to bring this into the open yet. Too early. Also, in general, I do reserve the right to a private life. For the time being, little is actually happening with my old flame. So it's my thing to stew over and play with for a while.

What do people here think of emotional affairs? The mainstream seems to define them as an insidious form of cheating, something absolutely intolerable. Most websites talk about it like it's a sign of the inadequacy of one's monogamous relationship, instead of acknowledging that part of being alive is meeting people you click with.

I certainly had one with this dude 5 years ago, and it could easily become that again. Sexually frustrating things, those are! But wrong? I have all kinds of conversations with regular friends that I wouldn't share with a boyfriend, and that isn't considered cheating! But if I like a guy, well! Get the marriage counselor!

 

[Anneintherain]

What do people here think of emotional affairs? The mainstream seems to define them as an insidious form of cheating, something absolutely intolerable.

I've seen people here who see them as cheating, and people who don't think they are. I happen to think they are an insidious form of cheating, and intolerable to me. I don't see it as poly if it isn't ethical and consensual.

If you think your partner would not think it was ethical, you probably won't be surprised that they also could not tolerate it if they found out about it after the fact, especially when you've worked hard to establish a groundwork to be open that, as far as he knows, is fine with you, if you haven't told him otherwise.

I would find it intolerable because when your partner(s) accept you are poly, if you feel the need to be furtive about things anyway, there is work to be done. If you want to get emotionally involved with somebody, until you feel brave enough to tell your partner what you really want, there is work to be done. If my partner didn't trust me enough to be honest about their desires, I would gauge that our relationship wasn't healthy enough to thrive as an open one.

 

[Anneintherain]

I don't know why I bother writing this. There's no way to make this work out, is there?

Maybe just tell your boyfriend how you feel, and go back to doing that respectful negotiation you were doing to get to where you are at now. Tell him all the stuff you said about feeling creepy when some stranger tries to hit on you. Tell him that you feel safer and more comfortable if you know, trust, and like somebody as a person if you're going to get involved with them.

But they'd have to look each other in the eye. They don't work together directly right now, but they will cross paths sometimes. They do know each other.

Yep. Does BF dislike Old Flame, or something? Lots of people in open relationships spend casual time of some sort with their partner's other partners, or see each other in passing. If Old Flame is nice and decent, and doesn't start acting weird, or talking about how he scored with you last night, the awkwardness tends to be pretty short-lived.

Old Flame is not exactly my ex, but we do work in the same place, so this is against my boyfriend's rules.

Rephrase that-- your rules, that you made in conjunction with your boyfriend. Nothing is stopping you from renegotiating but your fear. If you can't negotiate what you want, or both be working towards agreements that work for both of you, it's probably better to find out sooner, rather than later.

 

[AutumnalTone]

Polyamory is under the umbrella of open relationships. The others are

And here I'll disagree. Polyamory is one of the many things under the umbrella of nonmonogamy--which also includes open relationships. (And swinging and unethical nonmonogamy and so forth).

Polyamory involves romantic ties, whereas simply being open doesn't. Friends with benefits is an open relationship thing; multiple romantic partners is a polyamorous thing.

My wife and I are both open and polyamorous, for example. There are lots of folks who are open and not poly and many who are poly and not open (casual sex doesn't appeal to them).

 

[Magdlyn]

And here I'll disagree. Polyamory is one of the many things under the umbrella of nonmonogamy--which also includes open relationships. (And swinging and unethical nonmonogamy and so forth).

Polyamory involves romantic ties, whereas simply being open doesn't. Friends with benefits is an open relationship thing; multiple romantic partners is a polyamorous thing.

My wife and I are both open and polyamorous, for example. There are lots of folks who are open and not poly and many who are poly and not open (casual sex doesn't appeal to them).

OK.

 

[SpoofyCups]

So I took some advice given here, and advanced the dialogue somewhat last night. I didn't mention that I had someone in mind. Baby steps!

I talked about what makes me uncomfortable about one-night stands, and the reasons why I think doing this with someone I know already is actually less threatening to our relationship, e.g., I already know their flaws and weaknesses and won't be as easily seduced by newness. I explained the various ways that I think this can make us a stronger couple that has lots more sex. I did my best to make it not just about me wanting to be slutty. It's not. The "sperm competition" idea really appeals to me.

He was good, receptive, open. He said he doesn't want to stand in the way of new life experiences. He said all the right things.

But there was a sadness in his demeanor. I can tell he's not comfortable. As for his freedoms, he'd prefer to wait until I'm out of town. He clearly wants this stuff to be at a distance.

That sadness makes me feel really bad! What sorts of things can reassure a man of his importance and primacy in my life? How many ways can I describe that being open doesn't imply a deficiency between us?

 

[SpoofyCups]

I see that I put an apostrophe where it doesn't belong in my title for this thread. I hate that kinda thing. I can figure out how to fix it!

 

[Anneintherain]

But there was a sadness in his demeanor. I can tell he's not comfortable. As for his freedoms, he'd prefer to wait until I'm out of town. He clearly wants this stuff to be at a distance.

That sadness makes me feel really bad! What sorts of things can reassure a man of his importance and primacy in my life? How many ways can I describe that being open doesn't imply a deficiency between us?

(I don't think you can do anything about typos, etc., after 12 hours.)

My advice is to keep going slow. You can reassure him of his importance by being a good partner, listening to what he says, keeping your agreements, and showing you are trustworthy. Always treat partners as well as you did when you first met them.

His feelings about wanting things to be at a distance may change, if he experiences having relationships with other people doesn't negatively impact you two. But he'll either come to that decision on his own or not. It's okay for him to be sad right now. Changes can be scary.

 

[SpoofyCups]

Thanks so much for your advice. This forum seems to be a safe, respectful environment to explore ideas new to me and unpopular with most people I know.

 

[BoringGuy]

I see that I put an apostrophe where it doesn't belong in my title for this thread. I hate that kinda thing. I can figure out how to fix it!

I reported your post and asked the moderator to fix it.

 

[sparklepop]

Hi Spoofy,

I've read through your thread. I'm really glad that you spoke to your boyfriend about it a bit! I'm also glad that you seem to be veering away from any ideas about an emotional affair. They are different from general chit-chat or advice-seeking/ranting with friends. An emotional affair is an emotional affair. It's still dishonest, and it's not "poly." Step awaaaaay from the emotional affair.

It is okay for your boyfriend to be sad. He will be scared and nervous. He'll have his own feelings to work through. Just like you needed to sit on your feelings until you'd processed them, he'll need to do the same.

This article is really useful for dealing with jealousy and insecurity. Pages 5 and 6 have some very useful pointers for if and when you actually start being actively poly:
http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/Jealousy_Updated_10-6-10.pdf

Something that has also helped me is Sternberg's Love Theory:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_theory_of_love

This really helped me to understand how my GF and I felt for each other, and how new people weren't going to immediately be at that level.

Often, you just have to keep talking until something works. Patience is absolutely key. Be nurturing, make him feel safe. Let him know that it is completely okay to feel how he feels, and it's completely okay to talk to you about it. Also, ask him what he needs from you. Have regular check-ins.

My GF and her husband go out for a coffee, for about an hour or two, every two weeks, to literally ask, "Could I have done anything differently recently? How are we getting on?" They've found that really useful. My GF and I don't do this, because we are both women: thus, always jabbering away with each other. Find what works for both of you, in terms of communicating this stuff.

Now it kind of comes to crunch time. You've aired your thoughts. He was open. What now?

Could you arrange a time, say, two weeks from now, to discuss this further? Discussing further doesn't mean, "You must give me the go ahead in two weeks," but it gives you both time to ponder your needs.

During that conversation, you could lay out some guidelines. If GalaGirl (jumps up and waves arms around) is reading this, she outlines SMART agreements. She will do a much better job of this that I can!!

One thing that I've always struggled with in polyamory (especially earlier poly) is feeling like an audience member, watching all the chaos. My GF would just launch herself into situations quickly; she wouldn't pace herself. This caused me some anxiety, and I swear that we could have done a better job of it. If you're willing to set timelines to keep re-evaluating, this might help to avoid that.

The good thing is that you are starting to know what you want now. You have to follow your gut and decide how important certain things are for you. When you do talk, and form some kind of new, trial agreement, make sure that neither of you leave that agreement without being equally happy. Does that make sense?

If you talk in a couple of weeks, and he says he needs three months to get his head around the idea, only agree to it if you can. Do not embark upon any kind of affair during that time. Don't push the limits of the agreement. If you agree that you could start seeing this guy, set some guidelines on how that will realistically work (how often, etc.). If you set realistic guidelines and stick to them, this should show your boyfriend that you value him enough to stick to your agreements. Therefore, that he is a priority in your life.

 

[GalaGirl]

But there was a sadness in his demeanor. I can tell he's not comfortable. As for his freedoms, he'd prefer to wait until I'm out of town. He clearly wants this stuff to be at a distance.

Tell him you note his sadness, "I see you are sad."

Ask him if he's at a place to talk about that, or if he needs time to sit with it first on his own. "Do you want to talk about your sadness, or do you need space before we talk?"

Thank him for being open to the conversation, and open to exploring challenging things with you-- not just relationships with other people, but ideas, thoughts, feelings. "Thank you for talking to me. It is a hard conversation, but I love you and appreciate you for going there with me, rather than shutting me out. I love you."

That sadness makes me feel really bad!

Sit with yourself and ask why seeing discomfort in your partner makes you feel "bad?" You are not doing anything here that is malicious. You are talking to him, going to him with your shared vulnerability.

Are you not confident in your "ministry of presence" skills? Are you afraid you won't get what you want? Something else? What's the "bad" speaking to or speaking from?

What sorts of things can reassure a man of his importance and primacy in my life?

Both articles linked above are good things to think about.

Choose to behave in ways that demonstrate he is important to you. Be considerate. Take his wants, needs, and limits into account. Hold him accountable in his behavior. If you didn't care about him, you wouldn't give a flying f*ck about how he behaves. I don't know how he manages his upsets, but if he's doing self-destructive things, like bottling things up, drinking, I dunno what... call him on it. Hold him accountable. Resolve it. Get help, if needed.

How many ways can I describe that being open doesn't imply a deficiency between us?

That might be the wrong question. You say there is no deficiency between you? Okay. There is no deficiency. I will believe you. Let's say there are no deficiencies. So, there it is. NO deficiency. What makes it hard for him to believe this and feel it? That's another layer.

You could be saying, "Here is garlic bread. Smell the garlic bread!" and you are asking, "How many ways can I describe to him that there is garlic bread on the table?" Maybe the question you need to ask is, "What makes it hard for him to smell?" You know? to find the answer to that, you have to be willing ask him, and he has to be willing to figure it out with you.

Keep talking. Sort yourselves out.

My 2 cents,
Galagirl