Question for both primaries and secondaries
- Thread starter westVan
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BoringGuy
Banned
Right from the beginning.
AnnabelMore
Active member
Seconded.
Thank you for your response, but that has not been my experience.
Do primaries always have the veto power, dictate how and when dates are, can call and request updates while the date is in progress, say no sleep-overs (when she goes away with her BF for 3-4 days a month), have the rule that I send her thank-you emails every time I do have a date with her husband?
What is the experience of other secondaries?
Do primaries always have the veto power, dictate how and when dates are, can call and request updates while the date is in progress, say no sleep-overs (when she goes away with her BF for 3-4 days a month), have the rule that I send her thank-you emails every time I do have a date with her husband?
What is the experience of other secondaries?
BoringGuy
Banned
No, not always. That's fucked up. You've been putting up with that for three years?
AnnabelMore
Active member
Nope, all of that is extremely messed up. I would think it would be self-evident that double standards, hyper-controlling behaviors, and downright creepiness (thank you emails, really???) would not be ok. And there is much disagreement about veto power. Some people like it, some hate it. It's by no means universal.
I've also been in a secondary relationship for three years, and the only thing that you listed that's true for us is no sleep-overs, because that's something that the two of them agreed to with each other long ago. It applies to both of them. They don't sleep apart. But actually, he's agreed to let her make an exception to that rule so that she and I can go on a short trip as soon as she feels comfortable leaving her toddler alone for a night, and I've slept over in their bed multiple times.
If you want to read about my situation, I blog at "Story of a secondary" in the blog section of the boards.
I also highly recommend the essays on secondary relationships at www.morethantwo.com.
You're being treated very poorly, and you don't have to put it up with it.
I've also been in a secondary relationship for three years, and the only thing that you listed that's true for us is no sleep-overs, because that's something that the two of them agreed to with each other long ago. It applies to both of them. They don't sleep apart. But actually, he's agreed to let her make an exception to that rule so that she and I can go on a short trip as soon as she feels comfortable leaving her toddler alone for a night, and I've slept over in their bed multiple times.
If you want to read about my situation, I blog at "Story of a secondary" in the blog section of the boards.
I also highly recommend the essays on secondary relationships at www.morethantwo.com.
You're being treated very poorly, and you don't have to put it up with it.
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ThatGirlInGray
New member
Thirded.
Due to my responsibilities to my children and husband, I can't always accommodate what TGIB would like (or what I would like, for that matter). But his needs and wants ALWAYS matter, are always communicated and discussed as needed, and I do my best to meet them. If I can't meet them he's encouraged to find other ways to have those needs and wants met.
Your situation is bullshit.
AlbertaBea
New member
I feel like the needs of every person involved matter equally. When I'm the secondary and my feelings are marginalized, or decisions are made about me without me, it hurts. I feel like a sleazy mistress. No amount of apologies makes up for that.
You're not just in a relationship with your partner, you're in a relationship with their partner, as well. Relationships are a two-way street. Standing up for your feelings to a primary isn't easy. You have every right to do it, though.
Right from the start. You are a PERSON, not a TOY. You have your own wants, needs, and limits to be honored.
If you accept that your BF (her husband) comes as a "package deal" because he is married, dating him means paying the "price of admission."
Here's the price tag in your situation, as far as I understand it:
If he is willing to pay that price tag to get to polyship, that is his emotional/mental/spiritual health wallet. But do you feel like paying that price from your wallet to get to be with him, or is he more than you can healthfully afford to pay?
"I want my rights to matter, my wants, needs, and limits respected as a secondary." If this has not been your experience, perhaps the questions are more like:
Reflect on that.
If you accept that your BF (her husband) comes as a "package deal" because he is married, dating him means paying the "price of admission."
Here's the price tag in your situation, as far as I understand it:
- Primaries always have veto power;
- Primaries dictate how and when dates are;
- Primaries can call and request updates while the date is in progress;
- Primaries say no sleep-overs;
- Primaries have the rule that I send her thank-you emails every time I do have a date with her husband.
If he is willing to pay that price tag to get to polyship, that is his emotional/mental/spiritual health wallet. But do you feel like paying that price from your wallet to get to be with him, or is he more than you can healthfully afford to pay?
"I want my rights to matter, my wants, needs, and limits respected as a secondary." If this has not been your experience, perhaps the questions are more like:
"Why have I willingly signed up to participate in this relationship with a price of admission that DOES NOT meet my OWN wants, needs, and limits?
How is paying this price tag good for sustaining my mental health, emotional health, physical health, spiritual health long term?"
Reflect on that.
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Vixtoria
New member
Okay, I am going to play devil's advocate here. Some married or long-term couples come into poly through not-so-honest means, which means when they decide to try it honestly, there are already trust issues. As the new person in a relationship with one of them, that's totally not your fault. It does, however, mean that things typically go slower. That's what we had to do, go slow, with lots of communication.
However, it was never that bf's needs and wants didn't matter. As a matter of fact, as we were talking as friends first, he knew some of the past issues. When he brought up dating, he wanted to know how we both felt about it.
So we moved slow, but hubby, whose trust had been broken, made a point of asking himself how he would want to be treated if he was in bf's shoes, remembering that the trust we were rebuilding was between us, and not about bf, but about how I handled NRE.
The things you list are just controlling and inappropriate in any relationship. My hubby doesn't get a thank you for 'sharing' me. If anything, he's the one that enjoys that there is someone else he commiserate with on how I don't like to wear clothes around the house. While we have check-ins, and emergencies with kids come first, that's something that we all agree to, and it isn't abused. If a kid has the flu or is throwing up, hubby can handle it without me. A hospital trip, I better get a call about.
The first overnight was something we geared up for, but there was no veto. I know a lot of marriages just opening will do the veto power. I'm not saying it's right, but sometimes it's a safety net the other partner has to sort of remind themselves that they are not disposable. We had one, but it was pretty much a Catch-22. If he felt the need to use it, then there were problems that using it wouldn't fix. He could use it freely now (according to bf and me) and he sees no need to. In the end, it's a crutch that the couple learns is not helpful at all. So I won't say never use one, but understand it's a crutch, and should be a short-term one.
Three years is so not short term, even in comparison to relationships in the double digits!
The best recourse is to sit down all three of you and explain that since this involves all three of you, all three of you should be heard and respected. It's not fair for any ONE of you to hold up or hold hostage someone else's relationship. Working together, you can help each other with things that are scary or uncomfortable, but controlling someone else won't help anyone and will just cause a cycle that will continue, with or without you there.
However, it was never that bf's needs and wants didn't matter. As a matter of fact, as we were talking as friends first, he knew some of the past issues. When he brought up dating, he wanted to know how we both felt about it.
So we moved slow, but hubby, whose trust had been broken, made a point of asking himself how he would want to be treated if he was in bf's shoes, remembering that the trust we were rebuilding was between us, and not about bf, but about how I handled NRE.
The things you list are just controlling and inappropriate in any relationship. My hubby doesn't get a thank you for 'sharing' me. If anything, he's the one that enjoys that there is someone else he commiserate with on how I don't like to wear clothes around the house. While we have check-ins, and emergencies with kids come first, that's something that we all agree to, and it isn't abused. If a kid has the flu or is throwing up, hubby can handle it without me. A hospital trip, I better get a call about.
The first overnight was something we geared up for, but there was no veto. I know a lot of marriages just opening will do the veto power. I'm not saying it's right, but sometimes it's a safety net the other partner has to sort of remind themselves that they are not disposable. We had one, but it was pretty much a Catch-22. If he felt the need to use it, then there were problems that using it wouldn't fix. He could use it freely now (according to bf and me) and he sees no need to. In the end, it's a crutch that the couple learns is not helpful at all. So I won't say never use one, but understand it's a crutch, and should be a short-term one.
Three years is so not short term, even in comparison to relationships in the double digits!
The best recourse is to sit down all three of you and explain that since this involves all three of you, all three of you should be heard and respected. It's not fair for any ONE of you to hold up or hold hostage someone else's relationship. Working together, you can help each other with things that are scary or uncomfortable, but controlling someone else won't help anyone and will just cause a cycle that will continue, with or without you there.
redpepper
Active member
Try doing a search here for hierarchy, primary, secondary and veto, etc. You will note that there is no positive to these terms at all. Some people are starting to use them in terms of family dynamics and owning a new approach to primary-secondary, but any control over another, wielding authority over another, and owning people is just simply not okay ever. It abusive and destructive. I would suggest giving it one last haul to get your right for equality, and if you don't get it, walk.
Given that list of price tag items, I have to wonder whether or not the "primary" in this V does in fact view her husband's girlfriend as a "thing" to be endured/tolerated, not a person. We know that people sometimes lie (to themselves, their partners, or both) about their ok-ness with being in a polyship. Imposing rules that interfere with the development of the relationships that aren't part of would fit the, "I said I'm ok with you being poly, but really I'm not, and want you to be mono with me" scenario. And this forum's got easy-to-find examples of unhappy monoamorists dehumanizing their polyamorous partner's other loves, thinking of metamors as The Enemy.
Obviously I don't know if that's the case here. Could it be, though?
Yes, it could be that. But this thread is from the POV of the secondary. So to me, that angle is about "What am I willing to sign up for here, and how, so it serves my wants, needs and limits?"
- She cannot control the wife's behavior. Only the wife can control the wife's behavior.
- She cannot control the bf's behavior. Only the bf can control his behavior, and what he will and will not tolerate as agreements with his wife.
- The OP can only control herself and what she is/is not willing to sign up for. Her bf is married. He comes as a package deal. "Is this a package I want to invest in under these conditions or not?"
She can make requests of her bf.
- Please do not make plans with me that are not clear on your other relationship's calendar.
- Please do not overburden me with drama from your other relationship.
- Please treat me in this manner--
She could make her own secondary rights and responsibilities agreements with him to include things like that for herself, if she hasn't before, to preserve her own best health in a healthy primary-secondary model.
If the model is no longer meeting her needs, she could ask if her bf if he'd be willing to consider changing the model shape, then go from there based on his willingness or not.
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LovingRadiance
Active member
That depends upon whether or not any party in the relationship desires a change.
I have been in a V for over three years. It started with an affair. Freedom and privileges came slowly because I had to re-earn trust. However, at no point did my bf's needs not matter. Even when my husband was still volatilely angry over our affair, I made it my responsibility to ensure that my bf's needs were always considered.
I have been in a V for over three years. It started with an affair. Freedom and privileges came slowly because I had to re-earn trust. However, at no point did my bf's needs not matter. Even when my husband was still volatilely angry over our affair, I made it my responsibility to ensure that my bf's needs were always considered.
LotusesandRoses
New member
Since '08, I've been a secondary when I've dated people for any length of time. I'm a selfish person, and I'm my number one priority. When I love someone, I'll give you my heart, soul, and kidney, and while I understand people have responsibilities that are unique to their married partners or those they have kids with, if they can't fulfill my needs, or treat me like a toy, I gotta go.
Yes, dates get cancelled because sometimes people have sick two-year olds who have to go to the ER with an uncontrollable fever, or her husband's mother died and he needs his wife to comfort him, or his girlfriend just really needs his love and support for reasons they aren't comfortable articulating to me two months into dating.
Relationships should continually move forward and evolve. If at year three you're simply a booty call, perhaps you should reevaluate if this relationship works for you.
Yes, dates get cancelled because sometimes people have sick two-year olds who have to go to the ER with an uncontrollable fever, or her husband's mother died and he needs his wife to comfort him, or his girlfriend just really needs his love and support for reasons they aren't comfortable articulating to me two months into dating.
Relationships should continually move forward and evolve. If at year three you're simply a booty call, perhaps you should reevaluate if this relationship works for you.
IndieSolo
Active member
The needs, wants, and feelings of a secondary are always important. You are a human being and should be considered as a person who matters!
OMG. What you've been putting up with is indeed bullshit, and quite disrespectful of you as a person. Requiring thank-you notes? Just how are you expressing genuine appreciation to your metamour if this is a requirement? What self-centered nonsense!
Time to renegotiate! First, determine what your personal boundaries are, and hold your partner accountable to them. If he isn't able to or willing to respect your boundaries, walk. It isn't all about what he and his wife want. Yes, you can set rules or boundaries, too!
Sheesh, honey. Why did you wait so long to ask?
OMG. What you've been putting up with is indeed bullshit, and quite disrespectful of you as a person. Requiring thank-you notes? Just how are you expressing genuine appreciation to your metamour if this is a requirement? What self-centered nonsense!
Time to renegotiate! First, determine what your personal boundaries are, and hold your partner accountable to them. If he isn't able to or willing to respect your boundaries, walk. It isn't all about what he and his wife want. Yes, you can set rules or boundaries, too!
Sheesh, honey. Why did you wait so long to ask?
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AnotherConfused
New member
I've got the mono spouse who is reluctantly agreeing to my poly arrangement because he wants me to be happy. He is very frank about stating that my bf's feelings don't matter to him one bit. He sees bf as an unwelcome intruder in our previously monogamous marriage, and never wants to lay eyes on him. It hurts him too much. But my feelings matter to him, so he has an indirect interest in that relationship going well.
Bf also says he has no particular concern for my husband's feelings, except that he wants my marriage to stay strong and me to be happy. So in a way, they are each making compromises to benefit the other, but their motivation is my happiness, not each other's.
westVan, I wonder how your man's marriage is affected by his wife's attitude. I would find the frequent calls annoying, and the thank you notes? I'd be feeling like a piece of property if my husband felt he should be thanked for loaning me out. (I thank my husband for taking care of the household while I am away, but my bf doesn't have to thank him for that.) Perhaps the wife really doesn't care about your feelings, but she should care about her husband's, and she seems not to.
I'm with GalaGirl. Turn this around and look at what your own limits are. Requesting that his phone be turned off while he is with you seems like a perfectly reasonable start. (I think phones these days can be set so that a truly urgent call can still get through, if that is a concern.)
Bf also says he has no particular concern for my husband's feelings, except that he wants my marriage to stay strong and me to be happy. So in a way, they are each making compromises to benefit the other, but their motivation is my happiness, not each other's.
westVan, I wonder how your man's marriage is affected by his wife's attitude. I would find the frequent calls annoying, and the thank you notes? I'd be feeling like a piece of property if my husband felt he should be thanked for loaning me out. (I thank my husband for taking care of the household while I am away, but my bf doesn't have to thank him for that.) Perhaps the wife really doesn't care about your feelings, but she should care about her husband's, and she seems not to.
I'm with GalaGirl. Turn this around and look at what your own limits are. Requesting that his phone be turned off while he is with you seems like a perfectly reasonable start. (I think phones these days can be set so that a truly urgent call can still get through, if that is a concern.)
CherryBlossomGirl
Inactive
To each their own, responsibility for self
I am with GalaGirl. Everyone involved is an adult, capable of speaking up for themselves and making the choices that are right for them.
It sounds as though a precedent has definitely been set over the past three years, and whether random people call its structure unfair or not doesn't change the fact that you've been investing in this power dynamic for a serious stretch of time.
If you are unhappy, the onus for communication of this lies with you. We have to be our own advocates in our life; you have the ability to speak to your partner, and to his wife. (You have her email address, and use it regularly, it would seem.) I would encourage you to find your voice and speak your feelings out loud. Perhaps boundaries that worked in the beginning haven't had the opportunity to be renegotiated as of yet, and this is the time that it's meant to happen.
Maybe there isn't room for renegotiation. Maybe you'll still want to be with him despite that. It is your life, and these are your choices. Finding peace with them might be hard if you want something different than you have, though. Hugs. This doesn't sound easy.
I am with GalaGirl. Everyone involved is an adult, capable of speaking up for themselves and making the choices that are right for them.
It sounds as though a precedent has definitely been set over the past three years, and whether random people call its structure unfair or not doesn't change the fact that you've been investing in this power dynamic for a serious stretch of time.
If you are unhappy, the onus for communication of this lies with you. We have to be our own advocates in our life; you have the ability to speak to your partner, and to his wife. (You have her email address, and use it regularly, it would seem.) I would encourage you to find your voice and speak your feelings out loud. Perhaps boundaries that worked in the beginning haven't had the opportunity to be renegotiated as of yet, and this is the time that it's meant to happen.
Maybe there isn't room for renegotiation. Maybe you'll still want to be with him despite that. It is your life, and these are your choices. Finding peace with them might be hard if you want something different than you have, though. Hugs. This doesn't sound easy.
Derbylicious
New member
What it comes down to is this-- if what you previously agreed to isn't working for you anymore, it's time for you to speak up. It may mean the end to the relationship, but it may also mean growth towards something that will work better for you. How long have you been feeling this way? 3 years is a long time not to have any growth in a relationship. Best of luck.