Predator Poly Couples

[ConfusedMonoCouple]

My wife and I are fairly sexually-conservative people in practice. In ideology, not as much, but we've never really felt a void in our sex life, with the exception of an occasional, "We really should be having sex more for people our age."

Anyway, the other night, we went out with a couple we have been friends with for a short while. We've only hung out a few times, but we really liked them. Long story short, we ended up all sleeping together. It's been hell on our marriage.

We weren't ready. The guy fucked my wife right in front of me without asking her or me. She wasn't fighting him, but we never really understood what was happening. We were black-out drunk, so we're only piecing together what happened. It was so strange. He asked me if my wife and I were interested at the bar and I said, "Yeah, maybe, but we'll definitely have to talk about it sober."

When the bar closed, his wife wanted all of us to take off with two other guys that were poly. I said, "No way. My wife and I aren't poly (and definitely not ready for whatever would go on there)." Her husband told her no, he had to get up early the next day, they should just come stay at our house like they'd planned.

It was so strange how it happened. We got home and made drinks and popcorn, and we were just hanging out in the kitchen. His wife was crazy, but seemed really drunk, so my wife and I were just kind of like, "Whoa, a wild woman." We shrugged it off. I suggested we go into the TV room to do karaoke. Just eat popcorn and do karaoke, that's the plan. The wife starts getting wild, and somehow she and my wife start kissing. (Kissing another woman is the "craziest" thing I've ever seen my wife do, as far as getting wild at a party goes). Next they really started going at it, and as far as I was concerned it was hot. Well, a lot of things happened from there on out, but at the end of the night the husband fucked my wife in front of me. I was devastated, but it was all so confusing. I thought it was what she wanted.

It's a couple days later and we're both really fucking devastated and confused. We thought we'd made all these decisions, but when we think back, it's like they'd set it up to make it seem that way. In reality we resisted just about every step of the way, but things kept moving forward. The whole night, my wife and I thought the other wanted what was happening to happen, but that was never true. We're normally really good communicators and we just don't understand how it could've happened.

I posted my story of heartbreak to another website, solo. My wife and I took a while to sort through the fog and come back together, but we are. (I'm writing this from my point of view, but it's from both of us. She is sitting next to me.) Anyway, someone from the other website said they think this couple were predators. It wasn't a true poly experience, these people weren't our friends, and knew what they were doing-- they methodically manipulated us and exploited us.

I guess our question is, what is your experience with predator couples? What are they like? And do you think that may be what happened to us? If you want more details we can give them to you.

We are going to a counselor tomorrow by the way. In case you were worried about our marriage, we are too and we're addressing it.

 

[IndieSolo]

Oh my god, I am so sorry this happened to you. What they did is not polyamory. It sounds like a date rape situation. They took advantage of your drunken state and got what they wanted. Yes, they definitely sound like predators. It's quite unbelievable and makes me angry that there are people like that out there.

Did the woman fuck you, too, or was it all focused on your wife? Did the guy use a condom, at least? If not, or if you can't remember, get tested for STIs.

I think getting some counseling is a wise next step to take. I would also say that you both need to watch your drinking and protect yourselves more in that kind of situation. I know a couple who takes turns between them to be the designated driver.

Egad, I really don't know what else to say. I am so sorry.

 

[Marcus]

We were black-out drunk so we're only piecing together what happened.

So is getting black-out drunk something that you think was a good decision? Or did they drug you, or somehow coerce you into drinking so much that you lost basic mental function?

I was devastated, but it was all so confusing. I thought it was what she wanted.

If you thought she was into it, doesn't it seem reasonable that he thought the same thing? Why would he have more insight into the subtleties of your wife's expression than you? Adding to that, he was having sex with this woman right in front of her apparently agreeable husband. That is a whole lot of consent.

We're normally really good communicators and we just don't understand how it could've happened.

Could the fact that you were black-out drunk have something to do with it?

Personally, I think it's dangerous to hook up with people I don't know very well when they seem super drunk. I mean, I'm not a mind reader and I don't carry around a Breathalizer, so there isn't exactly a hard and fast rule, but I try to avoid doing that, mainly because I don't want to fall victim to someone who looks back with 20/20 hindsight and realizes that it was a mistake and then calls me a predator.

And do you think that may be what happened to us?

Maybe, it's possible. However, unless there was some kind of underhanded manipulation going on, which you haven't described here, I would say that you guys made a decision that you regret. Nothing more.

If I were to make a recommendation to you, I would say to be a bit more responsible with your drinking. Your wife got black-out drunk and had sex with someone right in front of you. If that bothers you, maybe you guys should avoid getting so drunk that you start making decisions you are likely to regret.

 

[bookbug]

OMG! This is not poly. Polymory means multiple loves - not take advantage of a drunken couple. I am so sorry. That truly sucks.

Seeing a counselor is an excellent idea. In the meantime though, it is important that you focus on the fact that neither of you is at fault for what happened. The fact that this happened is no reflection on your marriage, your love for each other, or the strength of your bond.

You were taken advantage of by people you thought you could trust. While I know it psychologically feels different because of the sexual aspect, what happened to you is much like being in a car accident due to a reckless driver. If you two were traumatized in a car wreck for which neither of you were responsible, you wouldn't worry that your marriage was in jeopardy. You wouldn't question your love for one another or your bond. Do not do a mindfuck on yourself, and allow yourself to question these things.

Take care.

 

[bookbug]

However, Marcus does make an excellent point. Perhaps they were not predators, but equally as drunk and not able to make sound judgements either. In that case, it was just a huge misunderstanding. I know that sounds like a blasé explanation for the trauma you are feeling, but it is equally as likely, and still not a good reason to have doubts about the strength of your marriage.

 

[ThatGirlInGray]

I read ConfusedMonoCouple's story on reddit and there was more to it than he posted here (some of those details he offered to reveal if anyone asked). I wouldn't call the other couple predatory, based on what I've read there or here, and I think that's a really dangerous accusation to make without further evidence. Everyone was drunk, and though the reddit version didn't say much about resisting, it DID say that the other woman got the other guy out of there once she realized through her drunken haze that CMC wasn't okay. As he said, he thought it was hot when his wife was getting down with the woman, and he neglected to tell folks here that he realized that his wife was having sex with the guy after all four of them had moved into the bedroom and he was involved with the other woman.

Yeah, it messed him up. He should have stood up for himself more when he realized he wasn't okay with what was happening. They should have talked about it before anything happened, etc., but no one was a predator.

If anything, this is one more case of, "I'm cool with my wife being with another woman, but not with a man."

 

[Dirtclustit]

Jumping into sexual situations

will usually cause problems unless you are single. Alcohol and drugs often cause the same problems and more.

Alcohol and beginning non-monogamy are two things that might not mix well. If you need alcohol to ease the tension of talking about or engaging in sex, it is a good indication you might not be able to handle it as well as you think you can.

If you require alcohol to ease the tension of just being friends, as in the traditionally-accepted boundaries of friendship which do not include sex, you might have some underlying sense of yourself that might not even be accurate. Society seem to have implanted an emotionally unhealthy framework in some people's minds.

I can't say whether or not the situation would be predatory. As crazy as it sounds, some people do not see things as black and white. It's not like trying to leave a store without paying for something is considered stealing; it isn't even like borrowing without asking can be considered stealing. It is my belief that if a person frequently behaves in ways that are right next to the line that distinguishes right from wrong, it is more difficult to find them innocent, even though the one step over the line may have been completely unintentional

What I will say though, if you continue venturing into non-monogamy, you will find that more experienced people may be flirty and touchy, but before they actually do anything, they will ask, specifically:

"May I kiss you, *your name*?"

Yes, even for something as innocent as a kiss. And just as they will wait for you to say yes to the kiss, they will also ask:

"May I *whatever the act* you, *your name*?"

Some people believe that is lame, but unless you don't give a shit about other's emotions, or it is your first experience and you don't know how often people talk a big game, or claim that their partner gives them permission, and you realize the message conveyed to you wasn't entirely accurate, you will eventually begin to recognize those who might not be who they say they are.

Some people even find it highly erotic to ask, and wait until you say yes, you would like them to do whatever it is they are asking.

And if you practice that with the people you hang out with, you are much more likely to not create situations where you are no longer friends. It's been my experience that sometimes people who you thought were completely onboard, were not. So, requiring explicit permission often leaves very little room for them to not be accountable.

Many people go through their entire lives with a significant amount of denial in everything they do, and it definitely affects them and those around them. It is crazy how something as simple as not holding yourself accountable can have the same effect on a person's distorted perception of reality as going through the majority of their life drunk or buzzed.

 

[ConfusedMonoCouple]

To the person from reddit: there were more things I began to remember, and my wife began to remember, things that weren't in the reddit post, that would take too long to explain. I've decided it doesn't matter if they are true for me and my wife, because I forgive her no matter what. I just wondered if what the other couple did was normal.

There is a reason they didn't talk about what was about to happen, and he didn't ask me or my wife if we were doing okay. There is a reason he came to my house instead of going to that other house, just an hour after I told him we weren't ready. He already knew what he wanted. There is a reason his wife told my wife it'd be "more fun" to stay on the couch when she asked to go to the back room when she tried to take her bra off. There a reason his wife "fell" on the floor, and didn't say "Let's join the men." There is a reason she "fell" onto me and her husband touched no one. There is a reason she said, "The floor is too hard. Can we go to the bedroom?" and not "Let's go to the bedroom and swap." There is a reason she didn't ask my wife if it was okay for her to suck my dick.

We were weak. I'll admit it. We didn't know what to do.

My wife followed the other wife's lead. There was a reason the guy didn't ask me or my wife if it was okay to have sex: because we would've said no. It's because it would've make us look each other in the eyes and ask ourselves and each other, "Do we want to do this?" Because we would've said "FUCK NO! We didn't need this shit." We didn't want this shit. Our marriage was fine. It's because they knew we were inexperienced and we would get spooked easy. It's because they knew that we knew we didn't know what this all meant. We didn't know if it meant having sex with our spouse next to each other, we didn't know if it meant touching only, we didn't know if it meant oral only, we didn't know if it meant someone else fucking our spouse. In fact, we never ever ever imagined it meant someone fucking our significant other. Ever. Someday, maybe, if we were interested. But we were just curious.

This happened. I know because I did it in high school and college and used to justify it the same way. I'd know someone would have never fucked me if they were sober, and that they didn't really want to do what I wanted to do. And they resisted, said out loud they didn't want to. And I just said, "Nothing's gonna happen. I just wanna snuggle." Then you start kissing her neck, feeling around. Try to get them excited without them even realizing it. Then you fuck them even though you knew they never wanted to. You just knew you could get them to do it. And I justified it the same way some of you do.

Well, you know what? To all of you who say my wife just got drunk and fucked someone next to me? Fuck you! Go ahead and keep ruining lives if you want, and justifying it with, "Well they should've stopped me." You're a piece of shit, and you know it, just beneath the surface.

Also, I got up and went to the bathroom once. When I came back the man was face-fucking my wife while his wife went down on her. He stopped when I came in. I asked her about it. She said, "No, no. I was just too drunk. I was doing it wrong, being clumsy. I couldn't hold myself up." I told her what I saw and she remembered. He was gagging her. She was tried pushing him away, but didn't stop until I re-entered. And he started as soon as I left the room. She started to cry. She was forced to finish the first blowjob she ever gave. She's not all that comfortable with them and she can't have your hands on her head.

She came to me when I came back in. We don't know how we got separated again, but there is no doubt in our mind, NO DOUBT, that the people in control had to do with it.

He hopped up and started face-fucking her as soon as I left the room. He was gagging her. Why? Because at that moment he could. Why did my wife refuse to believe that happened? I don't fucking know. It's kind of terrifying. Maybe she couldn't accept that he was actually being as abusive and exploitive as he was, and what that meant about the fuck they had. But she hates that man very much.

She may have it worse than me. She's very confused.

Fuck this. So much pain. Both of us. We are ruined, wrecked, dead. I'm sure the mod will stop this. I wrote it for myself anyway.

 

[Natja]

Confused, I accept that you feel that you are ruined and wrecked. Your pain comes through in your writing very well and I am sorry for it. But please do not take the posts asking for you and your wife to recognise that it might have appeared consensual to the other couple (especially considering all four of you were legless) as condoning you and your wife being abused. It seems to be skimming the line of date rape. I am uncomfortable with labelling it thus.

I don't 'want' you to feel bad, I don't 'want' to hurt you but the fact is that when you went to the toilet, returned, saw something that made you uncomfortable, and allowed the whole sex session to continue does say something about consent. You may regret that. You may think you were manipulated and they were predatory (I would agree) but do not react hysterically (and I mean that in the old-fashioned sense) over it.
Just take care of each other, process and communicate and avoid over-drinking like that in future.

BTW, I know others have said it already, but I want to again say, this is NOT polyamory.

 

[graviton]

I feel bad for you guys, but I agree, you were all sloppy drunk. Don't expect higher standards of culpability from them that you don't appear to have for yourselves. Chalk it up as a mistake and move on. Considering what you have said about your college date rape stories, I would also chalk it up to karma. Karma's a bitch and you just got slapped in the face by it.

 

[ConfusedMonoCouple]

I'm sorry I got so mad. I shouldn't ask questions on the internet and expect everyone to be civil or sensitive. Thank you to the people that were just trying to give advice.

We are both just so confused. We've been together six years and went from our very first mention of involving other couples to sex in like 1.5 hours. My wife doesn't even flirt with other guys. She went from me eating her out, to him having sex with her so fast that, even if she had a moment to question it, she was already getting fucked.

My wife likes getting fucked. She would've gone from "Is this okay?" to "I love our new thing," in no time at all, especially when she was drunk. We take responsibility for that and for me not recognizing that it was possible for something like that to happen. Hindsight is a bitch.

But now she's sick because it wasn't "our new thing." Some guy I thought was our friend swooped in like the wind while my back was turned, and seeing her like that took my spine away completely. My wife, who doesn't even look at other men. When I walked in from the bathroom they both looked at me in a way...

I hate myself for it. I didn't understand. I thought she was afraid she'd gone too far, doing something that we don't even do ourselves. But her face was telling me something happened while I was gone that wasn't right. I thought she was showing me attention because she felt bad, wanted to assure me it was okay. But she wanted my protection, when I didn't give it to her, when I somehow, however it happened in the blank space, gave her back to that man.

And she begged for it later. And had sex with him a second time. She feels like she begged the devil himself for dick. I wanted her to feel bad about what she did at first, though I did nothing to encourage it, my pain from witnessing it was enough. But now she feels far more pain than is appropriate for the situation. She hates herself so much.

I'm sorry, poly folks. I know the difference between poly and swingers now. Just goes to show how little we knew, I guess. I clearly need a therapist, because I can't stop this stuff pouring out of me, even when it's not the place.

I wouldn't call what I did in college date rape, but it was definitely predatory and manipulative. I know it was wrong.

 

[Vixtoria]

Here's the thing. It's not about not understanding how upsetting and freaked out you both feel. It would be EASIER to say they were predatory and you both were hapless victims. That way you could both band together and talk of the bad bad things these other people did TO you.

What they did was not right, no ifs ands or buts from me! However, a big lesson many adults still don't learn is that we are not completely right in any situation. Look, when early in our marriage DH and I were dealing with some things, it was easier for him to blame an outside source and not me for anything. Why? He loves me and wants this relationship to work. Guess what? More than a decade later, we are now opening old wounds and dealing with it, because at some point you DO have to realize where you yourself went wrong. It's not to say that you deserve what happened to you, it's more about seeing where your own actions and thoughts got you into more trouble than you wanted.

You were freaked, unsure how to react. Got it. And it's hard as hell to admit that and to admit that because you were freaked you did not handle things well, that you made mistakes along the way that made a bad situation worse. But you are both human, and the last thing you want is to later feel resentful towards each other as you emotionally get through this and start thinking about what you think you and your partner SHOULD HAVE done.

So yes, go to counseling. As embarrassing as it is, admit where you went wrong, where you should have said or done something else. It was a bad situation, and it wasn't wholly your fault, but if you can't admit to each other where you went wrong, there is going to be a build up of resentment--"Why didn't he do something?" and "Why didn't she say something?" not because you blame each other, but because you are both hurting, both made mistakes and are both responsible for your own reactions.

Being an adult means not being able to take the easy way out anymore and just put all the bad stuff on other people. It means having to man up and say, "This sucked. What XYZ did was horrible. But man, did I handle it badly! I need to figure out how to better handle it in the future and stand up for myself when I'm not happy/comfortable."

 

[Dirtclustit]

You do understand, don't you

that it doesn't matter what "normal" behavior is. It doesn't matter if everyone in the world tells you what happened and informs you of the terms. You are allowed to label what happened.

I said I couldn't say, only because I wasn't there.

You do understand what I am saying to you, don't you? Without bringing the incident you and your wife went through, because that is something I don't have the right to tell you which side of the line each and every step fell on. Even if I could tell you, I don't have that right.

But in reading the responses here, I want to make sure that you do know and do recognize the type of people you think are worth spending your time with or even around. Some people are worth your time, and some people aren't worth the lead to blow them to hell. Some people are fine to be in the same building with, and others you must inform that it is time to go.

I hope you understand why my words may seem cold or uncaring, and that you hear they're neither.

It is a shame that when things like this occur, people are often more worried about being careful not to admit their mistakes, than they are at making possible mistakes right. And it doesn't mean shit to me how otherwise good, or kind, or trustworthy people are, other than this one time.

I am not going lie to you and tell you that you're lucky it wasn't worse, or that you have no right to complain when things happen all over the world that are "real" injustices, or that you just have to get over it. Because that is a bunch of horseshit and completely irrelevant. Precedence doesn't mean shit and doesn't dictate where the boundaries are that distinguish right from wrong,

Because this is NOT just the way the world is, you do not have to accept any of this as normal nor okay.

I am sorry Natja, but the claim that "You went to the toilet, you returned, saw something that made you uncomfortable, and allowed the whole sex session to continue does say something about consent"-- no, it doesn't anything about consent, it doesn't say a goddamn word, not even implied consent. But that is a common misconception. I understand how some people make the mistake of believing that. I also understand how some assholes actually believe that is consent. What means more to me is a person's behavior after the fact

I hope all the readers understand you can be part of the solution, or part of the problem. I hope most people don't choose to be part of the problem, because that would be a very, very, male thing to do. It kind pisses me off because it is an indication that this site might be chock full of idiots and incompetents, rather than good advice.

Don't be part of the problem, because you are not likely to think it's fair should the problem suddenly got solved.

 

[Marcus]

I'm sorry I got so mad. I shouldn't ask questions on the internet and expect everyone to be civil or sensitive.

Everyone here has been perfectly civil. While there isn't a lot of hand-holding gentleness in this thread, I don't see anyone being insensitive either. I would say this has been an example of a very constructive conversation.

I wouldn't call what I did in college date rape but it was definitely predatory and manipulative. I know it was wrong.

It seems that you are relentlessly attempting to externalize responsibility for your decisions and your wife's decisions. I propose that recovery from the mistake will come more swiftly and thoroughly if you let go of the need to have a bad guy in the scenario.

You and your wife need to focus on, "Where do we go from here?" not, "Who can we blame for what?"

 

[ConfusedMonoCouple]

We noticed it works. It is a lot easier to blame them. We've decided we're okay with it until we see a therapist. I know it's fucked up, but it's not like we're in contact with them, or we're going to hurt them. It's just to take the load off.

That being said, these people were our friends. The husband was more sober than the rest of us. We trusted them a lot. And they are smart people. We refuse to believe he didn't know that it was an optimal time to get with my wife if he wanted to, with all of us drunk and never having discussed boundaries. We refuse to believe he didn't understand the consequences of fucking someone in a monogamous couple with no warning that he knew beforehand had NEVER discussed swapping. We trusted him, and he put us aside to get his dick wet. It's true, and so is what you said.

 

[bookbug]

To the person from reddit. There were more things we began to remember, and my wife began to remember. Things that weren't in the reddit post. Things that would take too long to explain. I've decided it doesn't matter if they are true for me and my wife, because I forgive her no matter what. I just wondered if what they did was normal.

Regardless of the motivations of the other couple, what happened to you was horrible.

But I have to ask, does your wife forgive you?

Why? I don't see that she did anything for which she requires your forgiveness. Seriously? You yourself state she was being held down and forced to blow this asshole. So you forgive her being raped? Way to go!

 

[YouAreHere]

CMC, to answer your question, this is not poly.

Definitely go talk to a counselor. Definitely get yourselves tested for STIs. It's okay to be angry, but please make sure you take care of yourselves.

 

[Marcus]

You yourself state she was being held down and forced to blow this asshole. So you forgive her being raped? Way to go!

Wait, she was being held down and raped?

 

[Natja]

Wait, she was being held down and raped?

I am wondering whether Bookbug has misread that section,. What the OP wrote was:

Also, I got up and went to the bathroom once. When I came back the man was facefucking my wife while his wife went down on her. He stopped when I came in. I asked her about it. She said "No no. I was just too drunk. I was doing it wrong, being clumsy. I couldn't hold myself up." I told her what I saw and she remembered. He was gagging her. She was tried pushing him away but didn't stop until I re-entered. And he started as soon as I left the room. She started to cry. She was forced to finish the first blowjob she ever gave. She's not all that comfortable with them and she can't have your hands on her head.

She was forced to finish the first blowjob she ever gave. She is uncomfortable with doing them. Therefore, according to the OP, she would not have enjoyed this more aggressive dominant blowjob experience with this man. That's how I read, it at least.

 

[Marcus]

She was forced to finish the first blowjob she ever gave and is subsequently uncomfortable with doing them therefore according to the OP she would not have enjoyed this more aggressive dominant blow job experience with this man.

That's how I read it at least

That's what I saw as well, Natja.

Guys, calling people rapists and predators is a very serious thing. I really recommend calming down from this kind of slander. Certainly given the fact that this situation SCREAMS consent, again, unless I'm missing a big chunk of this story.

There are predators and rapists out there. They use coordinated tactics to get people to submit to them. These people are very dangerous and should be flogged like the bullies that they are. Every time there is a "crying wolf" situation like this one, it casts a shadow of doubt onto the real claims of coercion.