Predator Poly Couples

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We met a couple once, they made it out like they were a poly couple looking for a quad. In reality they were swingers looking for a swap.
Does anyone else think this sounds like a fake post? Reminds me of a fake letter to an advice columnist I saw once...a husband was all upset because his multiple brothers fucked his wife or something like that...

"The first blowjob she ever gave," really?


Lurid, gratuitous imagery. Over-the-top sensationalism. OP gives incriminating personal history "Yeah I used to be a rapist so I know how rapists think, and these people think like rapists". (Rapists, predators, whatever. Poe tay toe poh tah too.)

If I thought I and/or my wife had been sexually assaulted I wouldn't be posting about it ALL OVER THE INTERNET and NOT contacting a RAPE CRISIS CENTER.

Oh, but the OP *IS* a rapist. I forgot about that for about half a nanosecond. I must have been distracted by all those little letters of the alphabet up in here.
The issue is that really good guys like yourself can't imagine behaving this way. I mean yes, you are aware it happens on a theoretical level, but it isn't a part of your existence. A jackass guy isn't going to pull that shit on you.

Unfortunately, because the jackasses can seem like okay guys and don't wear signs stating their assholery, women need to be vigilant when in the company of men she doesn't know well.

I don't find the situaion humorous. I DO find talking with *certain* people on here reassuring (including Marcus) and in that, my sense of humor comes out.

The situation was terrifying.
But it is a reality and I could curl up in my own home scared to leave (and still be at risk) or take matters into my own hands.
I choose to take it into my own hands.
... I just wondered if what they did was normal.

There is a reason they didn't talk about what was about to happen and he didn't ask my wife if and I if we were doing ok. there is a reason he......

This happened. I know because I did it in high school and college and used to justify it the same way. I'd know someone would have never fucked me if they were sober, and that they didn't really want to do what I wanted to do. And they resisted, said out loud they didn't want to. And I just said, "Nothings gonna happen I just wanna snuggle." Then you start kissing her neck, feeling around. Try to get them excited without them even realizing it. Then you fuck them even though you knew they never wanted to, you just knew you could get them to do it. And I justified it the same way some of you do. Well you know what to all of you who say my wife just got drunk and fucked someone next to me? Fuck you! Go ahead and keep ruining lives if you want, and justifying it with, "well they should've stopped me." You're a piece of shit and you know it just beneath the surface.

I have no idea if this is a real post or not, but I find this post rather disturbing. I got the impression the OP was posing himself and his wife as rather innocent and naïve hapless victims, and here he freely admits he himself routinely did to girls and women what he's now angry about being done to him? If he wants to call this incident date rape, then he needs to also label himself a serial date rapist.

I find it disturbing that he would be so incensed about it when it's how he himself has lived. I find it disturbing that he would be yelling at others to 'go ahead and keep ruining lives if you want' when he himself is the one who actually did exactly this to women.

Looks like you fell victim to a group of Swingers pretending to be Poly.

Scum like that are the reason we have given up looking several times for the right people to be in our Family.
All they care about is their next conquest and nothing about the harm it does to people.

I have no idea if this is a real post or not, but I find this post rather disturbing. I got the impression the OP was posing himself and his wife as rather innocent and naïve hapless victims, and here he freely admits he himself routinely did to girls and women what he's now angry about being done to him? If he wants to call this incident date rape, then he needs to also label himself a serial date rapist.

I find it disturbing that he would be so incensed about it when it's how he himself has lived. I find it disturbing that he would be yelling at others to 'go ahead and keep ruining lives if you want' when he himself is the one who actually did exactly this to women.

Yes but he did it and got away with it, and now the statute of limitations is probably expired in his jurisdiction. Plus, this is an anonymous message board so it's perfectly safe for someone to admit to getting away with criminal behaviour because their victims won't be able to recognize them or use their post as evidence in court or anything like that.

OP, go back to reddit where the scummy perverts belong.
Yes but he did it and got away with it, and now the statute of limitations is probably expired in his jurisdiction. Plus, this is an anonymous message board so it's perfectly safe for someone to admit to getting away with criminal behaviour because their victims won't be able to recognize them or use their post as evidence in court or anything like that.

OP, go back to reddit where the scummy perverts belong.

You know that is a good point, I would like to know whether the OP has dwelt upon the idea that he might have caused the same sort of trauma he is claiming for himself and his wife now?

Did any of those girls feel disgusted, ashamed, manipulated? Did any of them need counselling?

Someone mentioned karma earlier and although I feel that is usually quite a harsh thing to mention when someone is hurting I wonder if the OP feels that he actually does need to acknowledge and apologise for what he did?
i'm not going to say it's fake.

i know before my lady learned to open up about what she was going through she had problems with communication, things always came out with a defensive tone, spooning out little bits of information, redirecting back to me that she wasn't comfortable admitting, ... (that was a rough time in our lives)

the original post said lots, ... initially. lots of emotions compounding everything he and his wife had been through, ... but little about what actually happened other than he and his wife feel taken advantage of.

information after that is piece work, little bits here and there, then little bits more, ... initially he felt he didn't have to divulge more, ... considering the situation i can understand that, ...


again, i'm not going to say it's fake, actually i'm going to side with it being real in all sense of the term, ... i do think that what the OP considers good communication is only enough communication to keep their marriage together, ... if i am guessing right (and it's just my guess), the OP and wife need to bring their communication to a whole new level of openness so nothing like this happens to them ever again.

the situation, you have my sympathy, in my mind that's rape, ... but due to a drunken stupor by everyone involved, well that really sucks :(. no modesty there, that really really sucks :(

but for working on things to get their marriage back together, i'd say this, ... consider your level of "good communication" to be total garbage and BS, ... not to say your not communicating what's needed, but your only just barely communicating what's needed to make your marriage work, ... that's a far cry from communicating enough to make your marriage thrive.

let your wife speak for herself, you can make all the assumptions for what you know she would and would not do and under what circumstances, ... maybe your right, but give her her voice. if needed have her fill out her views and perceptions.

the same way alchohol is nicknamed truth syrum, that thing that lowers the inhibitions to make it easier to do things you wouldn't do in your right mind but are curious about regardless, ... get past that open up, learn what your both thinking, what your both wanting, and why.

maybe it's just me, as i said above, ... from what you've said, your piecework information here, ... i'd say your communication skills suck.

yes that's all beside the point of what you went through, what you went through sucks and is something you should never have had to experience, ... but stop being defensive where it's not helping, stop being embarrassed about things you had pretty much forced on you.

be angry for sure, try to avoid being defensive, i can understand your hurt, your angry, ashamed, deeply concerned for what your wife went through.

but ... if your defensive, if your going to blame the other couple every step of the way, ... where are you taking responsibility on your actions and behaviors ?

when drunk your drunk, your not thinking clearly, i know that, you know that, everyone here knows that, ... that's all after the fact, ... when you could think clearly, when you knew you shouldn't have had that next drink, and you did anyway, ... shame on you.

you took the next drink, and however many more, ...that's your responsibility.

you'll never stop this from happening again if you look to blame the other couple for taking advantage of you and refuse to take responsibility for your actions that put you in that situation to begin with.

figure out what you did, when you should have called it quits and gone home, with your wife, without anyone else, ... that's your responsibility, learn it, don't blame other because you and your wife kept drinking.

after that, maybe during the same time your thinking about that, work on communication, how was your day at work, what do you need, what are you getting, how do you feel, ... don't tell me, tell your wife, have your wife tell you.

keep it up like a contest, the winner is the one that lasted longer before the looser said "enough already, i don't need you to tell me more", ...

yes, you've got a lot of work to do, ... more than counselling will help with.

so make it a game for your communication
who wins and who looses this game ?, who is the quitter ?
you want your marriage to work, ... i guess how important your marriage is depends on how important your need to communicate is, ... "good enough" got you to where you are today

somehow i don't think that's good enough, not trying to be hard on you, but i think it's time to re-evaluate things so you can strive for something better.

and definitely look at your own responsibility, if you think you did nothing wrong, then don't complain about what happened, if you can look at everything that happened that evening and say "ok, we probably should have called it quits here", ... or look back, stop blaming the other couple, because you decided drinking heavily was alright, ... that's your responsibility, ... figure it out.

no, i in no way condone what happened to you, ... in my mind that's rape, ... but don't put yourself in that situation again.
this post is what makes me suspect bullshit

I'm sorry I got so mad. I shouldn't ask questions on the Internet and expect everyone to be civil or sensitive. Thank you to the people that were just trying to give advice. We are both just so confused. We've been together six years and went from our very first mention of involving other couples to sex in like 1.5 hours and my wife doesn't even flirt with other guys. She went from me eating her out to him having sex with her so fast that, even if she had a moment to question it she was already getting fucked; and my wife likes getting fucked. She would've went from "is this ok?" to "I love our new thing." in no time at all, especially when she was drunk. We take responsibility for that and for myself not recognizing that it was possible for something like that to happen. Hindsight is a bitch. But now she's sick because it wasn't "our new thing." Some guy I thought was our friend swooped in like the wind while my back was turned and seeing her like that took my spine away completely. My wife, who doesn't even look at other men. When I walked in from the bathroom they both looked at me in a way... I hate myself for it. I didn't understand. I thought she was afraid she'd gone too far, doing something not even we do alone. But her face was telling me something happened while I was gone that wasn't right. I thought she was showing me attention because she felt bad, wanted to assure me it was ok. But she wanted my protection. When I didn't give it to her, when I somehow, however it happened in the blank space, gave her back to that man. And she begged for it later. And had sex with him a second time. She feels like she begged the devil himself for dick. I wanted her to feel bad about what she did at first, though I did nothing to encourage it, my pain from witnessing it was enough. But now she feels far more pain than is appropriate for the situation. She hates herself so much. I'm sorry poly folks. I know what the difference between poly and swingers now. Just goes to show how little we knew I guess. I clearly need a therapist because I can stop this stuff pouring out of me even when it's not the place. I wouldn't call what I did in college date rape but it was definately predatory and manipulative. I know it was wrong.

and it's not just because obviously what was typed doesn't match verbatim the words the author was thinking. So the even if removing the parts that make no sense, there is still a theme that doesn't necessarily mean the man is a rapist, manipulator or predatory


it does mean that the person (or character the words were written to represent) is the typical idiot male, with the typical idiot framed mind, who obviously just doesn't get it, doesn't know nor understand the most basic principles of the way the brain works, not to mention one of the main ways the mind is used to process and think through extremely complicated processes primarily using emotion.

so I hope this fucking moron isn't anywhere near the field of psychology

not to be cold, but the reason I am is because you are not seeing the things in your life, in your behavior, in your relationship (if it is not just creative writing like many of the psychopaths that write here) that may be just as damaging, maybe even more damaging, than if this event never occurred AND even if it was a case of flat out rape.

And it has to do with the way this fucked up world is, and the fucking male mentality that only gets worse when it is of a pack. And that is that there are males who go through life not caring about trampling on another's God Given Rights to make their own decisions regarding things and acts that are scared.

Sex is one of them

and to not respect even the physically weakest and most vulnerable person's total and complete sovereignty , for which no law can be written with any authority over the individuals freedom to make their own choice as an adult, is one of the worst crimes that a person can commit.

Here a "person" is any animal the spirit inhabits of the houses from the Genus Homo (ghost Holy) and above, for those who have no respect for an individuals sovereignty on those decisions no matter what physical powers an animal can over ride, those who choose to order seniority of their life where physical power is above things that are considered sacred,

which is exactly what a person does when they commit crimes like rape

those who organize their personal priorities in the fashion, where physical power trumps the authority of sacred sovereignty, will be returned to the level of life where that organization fits

Which is below Human Being and acceptable behavior of animals

We, Human Beings must have a reverence and respect for each individuals rights to their own freewill, esp in regards to the sacred things. That means that you do NOT desire for a woman to feel guilty about her her sexual desires, at least not unless she has a thing for minors.

You don't do that shit because if you knew how much strength it takes to live in a world like ours is, with so much disrespect towards women , enforcing false beliefs that men are superior to women, wrongful discrimination against them, and being made to feel vulnerable when the fact is they are only vulnerable for a short, short time, which unfortunately feels like an entire lifetime

and while that may be technically correct, that is only because so few will remember an other life times, specifically, the one lived from the place of privilege and power which is abused by idiot, ignorant, incompetent men who are NOT rightfully humans, and will be returned to their rightful place in the hierarchy.

I can understand the way the truth hurts, we all have had sexual cravings, lust, for another's body that is not our spouse or gf/bf, and yet we can completely understand how that lust does not affect nor diminish our love for our spouse so long as it is felt or experienced respectfully. Respect meaning that those lusty emotions are much more temporary than permanent , and unfortunately many people are too stupid to even recognize the difference between temporary and permanence of their own god damned emotions

but regardless, most people have no trouble understand how they can know lust and yet they know they still love their spouse. Where they have trouble is knowing the truth -- that their spouse may have the same lustful emotions -- yet they have trouble getting it through their thick skulls that their spouse's lust for others does not necessarily affect how their spouse loves them.

But respect for permanent emotions above the temporary emotions must be shown or else it does affect the love experienced

but before I get off topic (as if that didn't happen) I was trying to explain how damaging it can be if your gf or spouse comes to trust that you respect her sovereignty , and your actions say the opposite. In fact probably the most damaging thing a person can do to another's psyche, is to say one thing and have the person it is said to believe it and take you at your word, only to have your behavior go against it. If she can see you are a liar it is not nearly as damaging as if she fails to recognize it

A most women don't recognize when that their partner attempting to make them feel shame or guilt -- WHEN THEIR LUST IS FELT IN RESPECTFUL WAYS -- is not an OK thing to do without her consent.

The RESPECT is a big concept because their are certainly disrespectful ways to experience Lust, even when it is never acted upon. There is nothing anyone can do that will protect them from ever feeling any lust, it is something that all people feel if they are honest, so when your wife experiences lust and it is clear she is attempting to show your love respect, it is NOT OK to behave in ways that make her feel shame or guilt.

The female gender has been labelled the scapegoat of all evils that have to do with sexuality. No matter what they do, our society is structured so that they are made to feel who they are is wrong and guilty when they have done nothing.

For males it is structured as if they can do no wrong -- which couldn't be further from the truth -- yet males have this fucked up mentality of "you just don't know what it is like to 'have to have sex'" which is the most backwards ignorant things in reality a person can say. It is nothing more than another excuse, another wrongful justification, and another cop out because men prefer to take the easy route and not come anywhere near living up to the responsibility that comes with and is unique to every freedom exercised.

and oh my fucking god they cut me off

to be continued in next comment
Not to be the bearer of bad news, but if you don't recognize why it is wrong to desire for your girlfriend to feel guilt or shame for her respectful and innocent feelings of lust, you will won't be able to handle life in a woman's world, which requires more strength, more intellect, and greater skilled in aspects of life than the average male is capable of exhibiting, you will not ever get a chance to continue on in another life housed in a human body. So this male life will be the end of the line for you as far as human being goes.

Because if you are able to be understanding of your own feelings of lust, but not your spouse's, you are not being fair, no being responsible, and certainly not being respectful enough to deserve a woman who is respectful in her behavior towards you.

So you have no business even flirting with the idea of entertaining those lusts, at least not without completely destroying your relationship -- doing damage to the extent it is not repairable -- which means the only respectful thing to do would be to end the romantic relationship and try your hand at being stupid as a free and single person

and anybody who ended things with there spouse to do so, may be an idiot, but at least they are showing respect where respect is due, and honestly essentially saying "I am an irresponsible little child, not a man, and you deserve a man in life" and once you make that decision you don't fuck with her mind and toy with coming back, though that decision would be up to your spouse

DO NOT BE PART OF THE PROBLEM, which is to not be conscious of the way our fucked up society has chosen to frame the world, Things are not always what they seem, and the Truth in reality, as in that which Is real in this world we live in, is that you must recognize the correct order of authority, because if you fall for the "natural" framework, and do not place respect for that which is sacred above the physical powers that be, you are not living responsible, you are not living ethically , and this is the last chance you will be given to voluntarily choose to prioritize your levels of authority to align with the right and wrong ways to behave, which we all inherently know, no matter which idiot incompetent man has gotten you to accept his lies as truth

fuck that, fuck you, fuck men and cheers to tomorrow when life as a Human Being will not have to suffer the likes of idiot, irresponsible, asshole men

You know, this COULD be perceived as a HOSTILE ATTACK on the OP. Rapists (i mean "sexual predators in high school and college who get a taste of their own medicine at some point later in life") are human beings with feelings too, after all.

Just wanted to put that out there.
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More than likely

However I believe there is a difference between being hostile, cold, heartless, and sarcastic when the person is going through hard times transitioning to non-monogamy with a previously monogamous partner, as opposed to hostility that is not sarcastic, and is serious.
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Well, when you're in HS and college, it's a cool accomplishment to force yourself on young women and have your way with them - gives ya something to boast about over a keg. But when you're married and someone does it to your wife, well, shit, they messed with your property and that's rape.
There is a lot being said about me and the couple both being a rapists. None of us are in my mind. Initiating sex with a person when their hormones and lowered inhibitions persuade them to continue, rather than their rational mind, and ignoring that they'd make a different decision, is exploitive and wrong, but its not rape. I know that it's fucked up. I'm wasn't a serial date raper. I never ruined anyone's lives, women have done it to me to. It happens. This has been a crazy time for my wife and I but I've come to the conclusion that we are really very culpable for what happened. That being said, we were exploited by a friend. We aren't kids anymore, and we've been long trained to put up our defenses when we know we've had to much to drink. We've just never had to do it as a couple, and we honestly didn't know what it looked like or see it coming. This wasn't "God dammit I can't believe I fucked Jill again." It's bigger than that. It's "Oh my God I destroyed our marriage." The face-fucking incident is a bit mellow dramatic but we were living in mellow drama. Everything was so.. The stakes and emotions were high.

Our communication is shit. So are counselors and psychiatrists. They said she got raped. One insinuated I knew at the time it was rape and stood by, the other randomly assumed my wife was more drunk than I. My wife was happy as a clam from then on. Tells me to man up when I weep, and that she can't carry all my burdens. She becomes irate whenever I want to talk anout what happened. She didn't want to go to the psychiatrist because she was satisfied with the counselor that threw me under the bus. I asked her to come to support me. He spent the first 20 minutes talking about how she'd been raped, he wouldn't let me read the letter I wrote to her because she won't let me talk to her (I asked her to write one too, to be read in mediation. She didn't.) He started talking about all they sexual and psychotrauma she might have and she finally said, "I'm actually doing pretty good, I don't really have all that." He stopped and looked at me with this oops look, the person he'd been cutting off the entire meeting to defend my wife from accusations I didn't even make. He said I have PTSD. I can't sleep. I cry when I fuck my wife. But he didn't say the couples wife raped me. Only that the husband raped my wife. Neither counselor seemed to care that I too, participated in sexual activity I didn't consent to.

It's odd though. Being isolated gave me time to think about things. I think the bottom line is we jumped into bed without knowing what was going to happen. My wife had sex with a man and didn't take the time to make sure I was ok with it because she was drunk. I didn't stop it. All I had to do was say "HEY STOP! We're sticking with our own wives tonight ok?" But I hopped in that bed too drunk to analyze the situation and take control if I didn't like it. They took advantage, sure, we fucking hate them for it and they are not good people or friends of ours anymore. But there was no gun to our head.
I can sympathize

with the counselor having being absolutely sure of the type of person you are and not even hitting the wall that the target hangs on. So many people these days go to see a therapist and all it does is mess them up.

I wouldn't see a counselor unless they came highly recommended by someone whom you trust their opinion.

We all know the difference between right and wrong, and we all do fucked things at some point, it's what you do after the fact. Most people are so practiced at rationalizing the behavior and lying to themselves that they become so adept at believing they do no wrong it doesn't even take any effort, it's automatic.

And just because a person or a couple are "swingers" doesn't mean shit, just as those who wave a poly flag doesn't mean shit either, and I don't mean to sound harsh Confused, but it is fairly easy to get a general sense of whether or not someone is the type who genuinely cares or whether they just don't give a shit.

Those who genuinely care often don't come across as exciting, or the life of the party, but it's been my experience that people who don't give a fuck about others' emotional health when it comes to things like sex, they make me sick to my stomach. When I use words like sacred, what I really mean is respect, because anything and anyway a person chooses to engage in sexual acts, they should be free to do so when it is between adults who all consent,

so I don't personally see anything wrong with choosing to decide you want to fuck anything that moves and want to be watched by the world as you do it. But at the same time, if a person engages in the most unexciting church approved intercourse with your wife whom you waited until you were married, if the act you are doing is in any way violating her right to choose, that is a fucked up thing to do and I don't have any respect for those who can't see the right and wrong of consent, because I believe they can see it but just choose to ignore it.

One of the most fucked up things about people who are open minded in regards to sex, especially online sites centered around sexual activity, is this insane belief that you need to have thick skin. No, what you need to have is good judgement of other peoples character, because choosing to surround yourself with the wrong people can be devastating. And it sounds like you learned this the hard way and I am sorry you had to experience that.

Allowing each other to love others in ways they are not bound by some jealous asshole men, really does provide the potential to feel extremely rewarded and blessed, but only with the right people.

In general, those who need alcohol at levels greater than what is considered legally impaired, I would be cautious about. Not that there are no heavy drinkers who are kind and generous human beings who care, but if it takes being drunk to create the excitement, or to have the courage to "go there" I found that something is "off" and it makes me uncomfortable to be around them unless I know them really well.

to answer your original question, "is that normal"

no, but it definitely happens a lot, esp when people believe to be "open minded" about sex means making stupid decisions or when risk taking must be incorporated for an elevated level of excitement. There isn't anything wrong with being into that, but it there is also a demographic who finds sex more enjoyable when love is the aspect that brings the pleasure, when its between those who truly care for one another. And whether people identify as poly as casual swingers doesn't mean anything.

What surprises most often is the couples whom don't feel comfortable enough to talk to their partner about their real fantasies, and claim they have a close relationship. I know for many it seems easier to be completely honest about sexual desires with a total stranger because they are worried about being judged, and that is honestly the only successful way they can try out their fantasies in real life

Personally I would be more worried about spending time in a relationship where I worried about being judged for who I am or what I am thinking. As that isn't intimacy in my mind. And I wouldn't want to waste anytime trying to make a relationship work with person I thought I needed to hide who I was.

If I found myself feeling like I needed to lie to my gf or spouse, that spells trouble, as those are people that I have a hard time being anything but casual friends or acquaintances. I sure as hell wouldn't want a close friendship let alone a someone I was close enough to include a sexual aspect to our friendship.
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The Reddit thread really does have much more detail (I can link it if folks want). I'd be very disinclined to agree with the poster that he was raped by the wife, despite his anger, and despite it looking like they were manipulated into something as a couple that they weren't prepared for.

So much needed to be said that just wasn't. While I agree that you don't always have to say "NO!" for it to be a no, snuggling up against the wife, showing her multiple signs of affection in order to elicit reactions you were wanting to receive from YOUR wife, is about as physical a YES as you can communicate. I have no idea how that could have been construed as a "no." And when you finally DID communicate to the other wife that you needed YOUR wife and you were done, she took action.

Sounds like the counseling is one-sided, however, which sucks. I'd recommend finding one who will listen to BOTH of you, or going separately for now if that will help. You both got into something you weren't ready for. You both misread each other, and you both had problems communicating - with each other AND with the other couple.

If it's rape, then press charges and get some healing for you and your wife. End of story.

If it's not, then get some healing and stop pointing the finger of blame. It seems to be pointing all over the place.
i won't say it's strange, there's a whole mentality of "men rape women, not the other way around"

welcome to the world of ignorance.

for yourself, ... your wife too, ... also honesty. yes your being honest with each other, but only to the best of your surface conciousness. your kinda missing the point when it comes to honesty about what is in your heart, ... that's going to be a long uphill battle. but the more you start facing what your going through the more you can get to the point of what your feeling, ... and then you can start to see that you were ignoring and pretending so much about what is going on around you, to you, through you.

all you want is your wife to suck it up and give you attention.

if your changing your story about your wife and what she's happy and comfortable with, that she is happy and content blaming you so that she can feel better, ... oh dear.

find the difference between enabling and loving, ... and stop enabling, ... if she doesn't want that, if all she wants is for you to take the blame that it's all your fault, ... have her write that on the divorce forms for reason your separating. because you'll never get past that in your marriage.

... i guess this is also a lesson, ... don't take each other for granted, your marriage has become lazy, work on it, ... the most you can do is your work, ... if your wife doesn't want to do her work, ... add that to the divorce forms for the reason your separating.

either move forward or don't.

and learn what honesty is. being honest with yourself, ... when you find that life becomes so much simpler, you get to the heart of the matter as quickly as breathing, with a clarity like glass, and have a truth no one can even begin to question, ...

right now, ... it's as murky as a muddy river. you and your wife have lots to work on.


and such is how i see lots of monogamists, ... 'good enough' is total garbage but they won't see it really isn't good enough. (nothing about confused and his view on polyamory) mono can't work on their own issues with this level of "good enough", and they can't fathom farther to see what it takes to do more. instead they blame others with their accusations about what they think it would take, but don't see the point of really doing more on their relationship than they're already doing, ... and the average length of a marriage is only a few years, ... because that was "good enough"

wish more people in poly saw "good enough" wasn't good enough though.
She didn't want to go to the psychiatrist because she was satisfied with the counselor that threw me under the bus.

Stop trying to see a couples counselor. You sound like you have years of work to do on your own and having your wife there is just going to slow it down. Find a counselor who does NOT take a side. I realize that is easier said than done but working with someone who wants to address your worldview issues is going to help. Most counselors are just as infantile as their patients so it might take some effort to locate a good one.

Focus on Cognitive Behavior Therapy, it's like a worldview workshop.

I am constantly amazed at what passes for therapy.

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get some healing and stop pointing the finger of blame. It seems to be pointing all over the place.

This is the fundamental issue at play here which, as far as I can tell, is in no danger of being addressed by any involved party. At least our OP seems content to just keep pointing fingers until the problem magically solves itself.

What a train wreck.
confused, ...

are you only upset because your wife got laid by another guy ?
is she only upset at you because you let it happen ?

the more i read what you are saying the more it sounds like this was something you wanted, but it didn't turn out the way you wanted, then because it didn't turn out the way you wanted your pointing the finger at others trying to defend yourself and say "that's not what really happened"
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