LovingRadiance
Active member
Stepping out because I disagree WHOLEHEARTEDLY. Using any opportunity to have sex with someone who wouldn't want it CLEAN AND SOBER is RAPE. It's often called DATE RAPE and it is punishable as a CRIME.
Predator Poly Couples
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Stepping out because I disagree WHOLEHEARTEDLY. Using any opportunity to have sex with someone who wouldn't want it CLEAN AND SOBER is RAPE. It's often called DATE RAPE and it is punishable as a CRIME.
LovingRadiance,
I don't know about rape, .but definitely, being "black-out drunk," as Confusing said, makes all consent moot. You can't give consent when you can't think clearly.
As I've read the story and watched it unfold, it really rubs me the wrong way to wonder what was going through Confused's mind. I am really questioning what was going on, and the reasons and intents behind it.
Initially it was all about what happened where his wife was concerned. Then the other lady giving him a bj-- that seemed to really contrast with being taken advantage of. It's hard for someone to "fall" onto your crotch and find your pants magically open.
Sure, being drunk, there's no clear thinking, getting carried away without inhibitions. It's really bad to wake up to the next morning and go "Dear god, what did i do?" But through it all, he's had no complaints about what happened to him, other than it happened and what his wife had to endure.
If I had problems being honest, I could easily say whatever I was comfortable with to make others out to be the bad guy, so that I was the good guy. it's easy to be defensive, avoid just stating "this is what happened" and go on about the injustice of it all, while avoiding mentioning his own part in it.
I could be totally wrong, but at the moment the story is rubbing me the wrong way.
I don't know about rape, .but definitely, being "black-out drunk," as Confusing said, makes all consent moot. You can't give consent when you can't think clearly.
As I've read the story and watched it unfold, it really rubs me the wrong way to wonder what was going through Confused's mind. I am really questioning what was going on, and the reasons and intents behind it.
Initially it was all about what happened where his wife was concerned. Then the other lady giving him a bj-- that seemed to really contrast with being taken advantage of. It's hard for someone to "fall" onto your crotch and find your pants magically open.
Sure, being drunk, there's no clear thinking, getting carried away without inhibitions. It's really bad to wake up to the next morning and go "Dear god, what did i do?" But through it all, he's had no complaints about what happened to him, other than it happened and what his wife had to endure.
If I had problems being honest, I could easily say whatever I was comfortable with to make others out to be the bad guy, so that I was the good guy. it's easy to be defensive, avoid just stating "this is what happened" and go on about the injustice of it all, while avoiding mentioning his own part in it.
I could be totally wrong, but at the moment the story is rubbing me the wrong way.
BoringGuy
Banned
She was probably wearing a short skirt too. It isn't rape if a woman is dressed like a whore.
Dirtclustit
Banned
After you brought the subject up, Confused
Did they threaten you or attempt to blackmail you?
Did they seem like they appeared remorseful at all?
Or did they continue to act like low-lives, who just shrugged it off, believing the only problem with their actions was that you weren't passed out and didn't remember it?
If your wife was fine with everything that happened (I am not trying to be cold about it), there is a chance that she doesn't consider it being taken advantage of or manipulated, because she is the one who has all authority in the incident that happened. If she says she is fine with it, then that is the judge with jury and trial. Unless the man raped you too, sex with another female is not rape, as this world is falsely set up as a man's world. You would have to be a minor, and it would be more like molestation.
Unless the woman penetrated you with something against your will and without consent, the violating is so minuscule it's negligible.
And that is why it takes a much greater respect and reverence for females by males than the other way around. Any idiot can understand the natural tendency of this world. A German Shepherd, far below the average human's intelligence, can figure out the natural world. To fully comprehend the humanness that this world has always had the potential waiting to be discovered, it takes an intellect that can do some minor reorganization of authority that you choose to base your decisions on. From that order of intellect, you can recognize the truth of the human aspect of this world, which means you don't force yourself on others' spaces that you do not have permission to.
If you don't understand or can't comprehend what I am trying to explain, and you can only make sense of the natural order, animal life, they say, isn't so bad.
I know there have been others making light of your situation, and it really is a pretty fucked up thing to do, but unless you are one of the cold-blooded creative writers for whom this is a pastime, it seems like your wife may not want it dealt with. I didn't read the article or reddit, and I am not going to, as if this is the response you got here, I can only imagine the cold-blooded response elsewhere.
Some people are just like that. Going from what you've shared here, it may be wise to leave your wife if she has honestly "thrown you under the bus," because it sounds like she isn't the type of person you can be with. I said I won't say "consider yourself lucky" but, however you see that night, getting involved in any sort of non-monogamy with the wrong people, is many many times worse than getting involved with the wrong mono person. I don't have studies or facts to back that up. I am going by nothing but personal experience, because I have never seen an otherwise good person rationalize and justify so many fucked-up things to do to a person, as I have a handful of "poly" people. But they do not represent anything more than that handful of people who rationalized and justified fucked-up shit, and still do to this day. Some people are just like that.
If your wife is one of them, you are probably going to want to leave her. But if you are more broken up about the incident then she is, that is sort of a red flag that says something isn't right. Why are you the one who it is the biggest deal to? While men can be raped, it is virtually never perpetrated by a woman. It takes a rare type of woman to frame her mind where that type of crime would be committed against another human being.
With men, it takes a rare type of man to frame his mind where that type of crime would be recognized as wrong, as men are in general despicable pieces of shit who are too weak to be responsible for their own actions. They live in a constant state of denial, and even those who are intelligent enough to understand this, not all of them choose to accept certain truths, and it is their choice.
Did they threaten you or attempt to blackmail you?
Did they seem like they appeared remorseful at all?
Or did they continue to act like low-lives, who just shrugged it off, believing the only problem with their actions was that you weren't passed out and didn't remember it?
If your wife was fine with everything that happened (I am not trying to be cold about it), there is a chance that she doesn't consider it being taken advantage of or manipulated, because she is the one who has all authority in the incident that happened. If she says she is fine with it, then that is the judge with jury and trial. Unless the man raped you too, sex with another female is not rape, as this world is falsely set up as a man's world. You would have to be a minor, and it would be more like molestation.
Unless the woman penetrated you with something against your will and without consent, the violating is so minuscule it's negligible.
And that is why it takes a much greater respect and reverence for females by males than the other way around. Any idiot can understand the natural tendency of this world. A German Shepherd, far below the average human's intelligence, can figure out the natural world. To fully comprehend the humanness that this world has always had the potential waiting to be discovered, it takes an intellect that can do some minor reorganization of authority that you choose to base your decisions on. From that order of intellect, you can recognize the truth of the human aspect of this world, which means you don't force yourself on others' spaces that you do not have permission to.
If you don't understand or can't comprehend what I am trying to explain, and you can only make sense of the natural order, animal life, they say, isn't so bad.
I know there have been others making light of your situation, and it really is a pretty fucked up thing to do, but unless you are one of the cold-blooded creative writers for whom this is a pastime, it seems like your wife may not want it dealt with. I didn't read the article or reddit, and I am not going to, as if this is the response you got here, I can only imagine the cold-blooded response elsewhere.
Some people are just like that. Going from what you've shared here, it may be wise to leave your wife if she has honestly "thrown you under the bus," because it sounds like she isn't the type of person you can be with. I said I won't say "consider yourself lucky" but, however you see that night, getting involved in any sort of non-monogamy with the wrong people, is many many times worse than getting involved with the wrong mono person. I don't have studies or facts to back that up. I am going by nothing but personal experience, because I have never seen an otherwise good person rationalize and justify so many fucked-up things to do to a person, as I have a handful of "poly" people. But they do not represent anything more than that handful of people who rationalized and justified fucked-up shit, and still do to this day. Some people are just like that.
If your wife is one of them, you are probably going to want to leave her. But if you are more broken up about the incident then she is, that is sort of a red flag that says something isn't right. Why are you the one who it is the biggest deal to? While men can be raped, it is virtually never perpetrated by a woman. It takes a rare type of woman to frame her mind where that type of crime would be committed against another human being.
With men, it takes a rare type of man to frame his mind where that type of crime would be recognized as wrong, as men are in general despicable pieces of shit who are too weak to be responsible for their own actions. They live in a constant state of denial, and even those who are intelligent enough to understand this, not all of them choose to accept certain truths, and it is their choice.
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Vixtoria
New member
BoringGuy
Banned
I believe it would be Truth According to Dirtclustit.
Vixtoria
New member
Yes yes, but I meant for those of us actually TAKING our medications.
BrigidsDaughter
New member
Dirtclustit, you are out of line. MEN CAN MOST DEFINITELY BE RAPED, and females can indeed be perpetrators. It is unfair to say that because a man biologically responds to being touched that it is consent, anymore than it would be fair to say a woman consented because she was wet. You sound like those Bible-thumping politicians here in America who say that women can't get pregnant from rape because their bodies won't allow it.
BoringGuy
Banned
Now you're talking about defining words and other serious shit. You must be one of those polier-than-thou people who wants to break everyone else's spirit to force them to fit into your group.
BrigidsDaughter
New member
That would be misandry.
I am going to respond to this post.
You first posted 7/28. It is now 7/31. I said you could give it time for the hormones of "fight or flight" to clear your systems. It seems to be starting to. You still seem in a muddle, but slightly less amped up.
I am not sure where you are with pressing charges. I will leave the legal side of things to you to discern with your wife.
Are you doing your basics? Getting sleep, eating, exercise, etc.?
You DO seem to see that is is wrong, so fine. It is wrong. Don't do it. Don't participate in it. Worry about WHAT KIND of wrong it is later.
You don't seem to be willing to call it "rape" at this time. Many would disagree. To me, it IS rape.
But at this time, I wonder if you're doing this because you might have to process your conduct in HS and in college, as well as this incident, and reconcile it. Perhaps you are not ready to go there because it is too much to process at once. Well, it is your process. Digest it at the speed you can.
You have a lot of layers, dude. Peace and healing are not going to come for you instantly. You go beyond the help of internet support boards with your situation.
You seem more ready to own SOME portions of this like hopping into the sack, drunk, with near strangers this fast was not a good way to go. This incident does not need to destroy your marriage. HOW you cope with it in the aftermath might, if you don't get it together. Yu could start pulling it together.
You can Google resources where you live locally.
Don't give up on finding the right counselor for YOU. Perhaps you'd be better off doing individual therapy and not couple's therapy at this time. You could change at a later time to couple's therapy. Maybe you'd prefer group therapy. It's mere days, dude. Pace yourself. I get that it feels uncomfortable right now. Given the circumstances, those are appropriate feelings.
What are you expectations of yourself at this time?
What are you expectations of your wife at this time?
How do you see yourself getting through this?
How do you see your wife getting through this?
How would you like it to be? Are you seeking attainable, realistic things, with your expectations and hopes?
Your wife's experience of this is her own. She's got to carry her own load. She cannot carry yours too. You could refrain from evaluations like "She is as happy as a clam." You cannot know what she is feeling. You are not her.
If she's evaluating you, you could tell her your experience is yours. She can't know how you feel. You are YOU.
I see your need to want to talk and process. So talk and process. She has a need to NOT talk. You could meet BOTH people's needs by YOU talking to others at this time, not right now with your wife.
Again, just because the first counselors were not "it" for you, don't write off pro care entirely just because the relief was not instant. Maybe you'd rather have group therapy, or just another personality for a counselor.
You and your wife clinging to each other, ducking each other under in these first few days, doing push-you-pull-me stuff is just adding to the problems. It does not help to drown/suffocate each other at this time. You could agree to swim for shore separately, and then meet up there to talk and sort at a later time, when you feel more ready to deal with the couple things. Deal with the individual work first.
Your wife is in the inner kvetch ring with you. Don't bitch at her. She was there. Bitch OUT, not IN.
Keep trying to find a better fit for a counselor that would serve your healing process better.
Stop counting all the places where things went wrong or were done wrong.
Start counting all the places that things could go RIGHT and be done BETTER.
Then, make the plan to go DO THEM one thing at a time. Man up. Choose to move it forward.
Galagirl
You first posted 7/28. It is now 7/31. I said you could give it time for the hormones of "fight or flight" to clear your systems. It seems to be starting to. You still seem in a muddle, but slightly less amped up.
I am not sure where you are with pressing charges. I will leave the legal side of things to you to discern with your wife.
Are you doing your basics? Getting sleep, eating, exercise, etc.?
You DO seem to see that is is wrong, so fine. It is wrong. Don't do it. Don't participate in it. Worry about WHAT KIND of wrong it is later.
You don't seem to be willing to call it "rape" at this time. Many would disagree. To me, it IS rape.
But at this time, I wonder if you're doing this because you might have to process your conduct in HS and in college, as well as this incident, and reconcile it. Perhaps you are not ready to go there because it is too much to process at once. Well, it is your process. Digest it at the speed you can.
You have a lot of layers, dude. Peace and healing are not going to come for you instantly. You go beyond the help of internet support boards with your situation.
You seem more ready to own SOME portions of this like hopping into the sack, drunk, with near strangers this fast was not a good way to go. This incident does not need to destroy your marriage. HOW you cope with it in the aftermath might, if you don't get it together. Yu could start pulling it together.
You can Google resources where you live locally.
Don't give up on finding the right counselor for YOU. Perhaps you'd be better off doing individual therapy and not couple's therapy at this time. You could change at a later time to couple's therapy. Maybe you'd prefer group therapy. It's mere days, dude. Pace yourself. I get that it feels uncomfortable right now. Given the circumstances, those are appropriate feelings.
What are you expectations of yourself at this time?
What are you expectations of your wife at this time?
How do you see yourself getting through this?
How do you see your wife getting through this?
How would you like it to be? Are you seeking attainable, realistic things, with your expectations and hopes?
Your wife's experience of this is her own. She's got to carry her own load. She cannot carry yours too. You could refrain from evaluations like "She is as happy as a clam." You cannot know what she is feeling. You are not her.
If she's evaluating you, you could tell her your experience is yours. She can't know how you feel. You are YOU.
I see your need to want to talk and process. So talk and process. She has a need to NOT talk. You could meet BOTH people's needs by YOU talking to others at this time, not right now with your wife.
Again, just because the first counselors were not "it" for you, don't write off pro care entirely just because the relief was not instant. Maybe you'd rather have group therapy, or just another personality for a counselor.
You and your wife clinging to each other, ducking each other under in these first few days, doing push-you-pull-me stuff is just adding to the problems. It does not help to drown/suffocate each other at this time. You could agree to swim for shore separately, and then meet up there to talk and sort at a later time, when you feel more ready to deal with the couple things. Deal with the individual work first.
Your wife is in the inner kvetch ring with you. Don't bitch at her. She was there. Bitch OUT, not IN.
Keep trying to find a better fit for a counselor that would serve your healing process better.
Stop counting all the places where things went wrong or were done wrong.
Start counting all the places that things could go RIGHT and be done BETTER.
Then, make the plan to go DO THEM one thing at a time. Man up. Choose to move it forward.
Galagirl
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Dirtclustit
Banned
It theoretically possible
It is fair, because it has NOTHING TO DO WITH AROUSAL so it IS NOT THE SAME THING AS SAYING BEING WET IS CONSENT. THAT IS A PHILOSOPHICAL BULLSHITISM THAT IS BASED ON FALLACY, BUT WORKS IN IVY LEAGUE PSYCHOLOGY DEBATES, where facts and reality don't matter.
I am not asserting anything as ignorant as that Republican comment about pregnancy and rape. That makes no sense, even for an Ivy League debate book. You sound like Franklin Veaux, who says that educating women about situations that criminals look for in order to exploit, and that idiot calls that victim blaming,
I guess it makes sense to him, and I'm guessing from your assertion of what I said that you can follow his line of reasoning. I cannot.
But you know it's funny that such a fucked-up logic is subscribed to, because by that logic, I shouldn't secure my network or enable a firewall because I am blaming the user for having his computer hacked/raped. And dipshit thinks what we really should be doing is solving the actual problem, which is educating men as to why and how it's wrong to not hack into someone's computer without consent.
But how many people would tell me I was asking for it by surfing the web with no security in place in the known area hacker pieces of shit are known to exploit?
SO thank you, BD, I couldn't put my finger on how that guy's philosophy was so far fucked. The ironic thing is, he might be bright enough to understand the computer incident. I hope you know my hostility is due to the subject and not directed at you. Seeing the difference in a woman's life, knowing them before the assault took place, has left me angry that we still live in a rape culture where people could be as clueless of thinking educating women that certain situations should be avoided because there are men who will exploit said situations , because it happens every day in all across America, and there are minds so gripped by denial that they can honestly call that victim blaming.
I seriously think I am going to puke.
Number one, so few women are perpetrators of rape because they are not under the influence of testosterone and haven't been taught since history was recorded that they are superior.
I will agree that a woman could sexually rape a man with a stick or a strap on, or non-sexually rape a man by, say, forcing herself into the pages of a diary without permission, or hacking his computer. However, in regards to rape as the crime is most commonly known, I might have trouble labeling a women inserting a man's erect penis into herself as rape.
It is the violating of private space, mostly by penetration. I wouldn't consider a man sticking a woman's fingers into himself, against her will, as rape, harassment, molestation, or assault even. But it is not the same, and it has absolutely nothing to do with proving arousal being consent. A woman could completely desire sex, but refuse it because the man is an asshole, and it would still be rape if she didn't consent.
It is fair, because it has NOTHING TO DO WITH AROUSAL so it IS NOT THE SAME THING AS SAYING BEING WET IS CONSENT. THAT IS A PHILOSOPHICAL BULLSHITISM THAT IS BASED ON FALLACY, BUT WORKS IN IVY LEAGUE PSYCHOLOGY DEBATES, where facts and reality don't matter.
I am not asserting anything as ignorant as that Republican comment about pregnancy and rape. That makes no sense, even for an Ivy League debate book. You sound like Franklin Veaux, who says that educating women about situations that criminals look for in order to exploit, and that idiot calls that victim blaming,
I guess it makes sense to him, and I'm guessing from your assertion of what I said that you can follow his line of reasoning. I cannot.
But you know it's funny that such a fucked-up logic is subscribed to, because by that logic, I shouldn't secure my network or enable a firewall because I am blaming the user for having his computer hacked/raped. And dipshit thinks what we really should be doing is solving the actual problem, which is educating men as to why and how it's wrong to not hack into someone's computer without consent.
But how many people would tell me I was asking for it by surfing the web with no security in place in the known area hacker pieces of shit are known to exploit?
SO thank you, BD, I couldn't put my finger on how that guy's philosophy was so far fucked. The ironic thing is, he might be bright enough to understand the computer incident. I hope you know my hostility is due to the subject and not directed at you. Seeing the difference in a woman's life, knowing them before the assault took place, has left me angry that we still live in a rape culture where people could be as clueless of thinking educating women that certain situations should be avoided because there are men who will exploit said situations , because it happens every day in all across America, and there are minds so gripped by denial that they can honestly call that victim blaming.
I seriously think I am going to puke.
Number one, so few women are perpetrators of rape because they are not under the influence of testosterone and haven't been taught since history was recorded that they are superior.
I will agree that a woman could sexually rape a man with a stick or a strap on, or non-sexually rape a man by, say, forcing herself into the pages of a diary without permission, or hacking his computer. However, in regards to rape as the crime is most commonly known, I might have trouble labeling a women inserting a man's erect penis into herself as rape.
It is the violating of private space, mostly by penetration. I wouldn't consider a man sticking a woman's fingers into himself, against her will, as rape, harassment, molestation, or assault even. But it is not the same, and it has absolutely nothing to do with proving arousal being consent. A woman could completely desire sex, but refuse it because the man is an asshole, and it would still be rape if she didn't consent.
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Vixtoria
New member
I'm afraid the more you post the more stunned I am. Hate for Franklin, and I'm not exactly a fan anyway, is just spewed! It doesn't matter WHAT the subject is, you bring it back. Get some help. You have too many conspiracy theories, too much hate, and think way too little of men to be constantly degrading them as a separate species to be at ALL healthy.
Seriously, I start to think that my own issues, that I work very hard on, are nothing and could be ignored for a long while when I read your posts, just because the scale is so tilted with you.
Everything is all twisted in your posts, in your mind. It's horribly worrisome. I mean, seriously? A woman can't rape a man except maybe with a strap-on, because rape is ONLY about invasion of space? You are reinventing the English language as you go, and it's not working.
Seriously, I start to think that my own issues, that I work very hard on, are nothing and could be ignored for a long while when I read your posts, just because the scale is so tilted with you.
Everything is all twisted in your posts, in your mind. It's horribly worrisome. I mean, seriously? A woman can't rape a man except maybe with a strap-on, because rape is ONLY about invasion of space? You are reinventing the English language as you go, and it's not working.
BoringGuy
Banned
Vixtoria
Dirtclustit is polyamory.com's version of that guy standing on the median strip gesticulating wildly and talking animatedly to nobody anyone else can see. Getting worked up about the things he says does not serve a useful purpose. It is much more worthwhile to treat his posts as free entertainment, like a Saturday morning cartoon.
Dirtclustit is polyamory.com's version of that guy standing on the median strip gesticulating wildly and talking animatedly to nobody anyone else can see. Getting worked up about the things he says does not serve a useful purpose. It is much more worthwhile to treat his posts as free entertainment, like a Saturday morning cartoon.
Derbylicious
New member
Manipulation and exploitation to get sex is rape. Full stop. Trying to dress it up to not sound so bad doesn't make it not rape. Your wife was raped, both during the BJ incident and by the other couple.
Also, you have no way of knowing how much impact you may have had long-term on the women that you manipulated into having sex with you while you were in high school and college. I assure you that being manipulated into sex with someone with whom you do not wish to have sex has long-term effects. So unless you're still in contact with all these women and they assure you that your actions had no effect on them, please don't assume that you haven't ruined anyone's lives.
Also, you have no way of knowing how much impact you may have had long-term on the women that you manipulated into having sex with you while you were in high school and college. I assure you that being manipulated into sex with someone with whom you do not wish to have sex has long-term effects. So unless you're still in contact with all these women and they assure you that your actions had no effect on them, please don't assume that you haven't ruined anyone's lives.
You thought your wife was consenting, so why wouldn't he? They did some silly, risky shit, mainly leaving their liberty in the hands of flakes, but you guys need to accept that you are freezers. You are unable to vocalise a withdrawal of consent, and that should define the situations you get in, in the future. If someone carries on fucking you after you say no, it is rape. If you don't say no, you can argue that other nonverbal communication should have let them know you weren't consenting. And lots of times, that is the case. You two now know that even when you mean "no," you will not say it. A responsible person that knows this will make sure they don't put themselves in situations where they have to withdraw consent.
Personally, I wouldn't go off with strangers if I were intoxicated, so nothing that I didn't consent to, or would later regret, could occur.
Personally, I wouldn't go off with strangers if I were intoxicated, so nothing that I didn't consent to, or would later regret, could occur.
It happens more than often than you think, and for the exact same attitude you've ascribed to here, the idea that men, for being men, for having testosterone levels than men have, want to screw anything with a pulse. It is an ugly and hateful attitude, similar to the one that suggests that because women have more of the chemical that produces tears, and larger tear ducts, which allow them to cry easier, that they are weak and emotional.
When some of my gentleman friends have let a drunk girl pass out under their roof, and then have woken up to that girl, now less drunk, straddling them and trying to initiate what they THINK they want, simply for being guys, folks like yourself wouldn't consider this rape. BUT IT IS. At the very least, it is attempted rape, if the guy wakes in time to stop her.
Maybe the guy in the situation would want to have sex with her. Sure, if the girl weren't still under the influence. Sure, if she woke him and asked him and there was a chance to use protection. Sure, if she asked him out again and didn't get so wasted. An erect penis on a sleeping man is nothing unusual and absolutely doesn't indicate arousal.
I have to agree with your assertion, in some cases. In fact, I just recently saw it play out with a couple I know well. The husband was unhappy about his wife's extreme moodiness, quick temper, and hurtful treatment. Her responses to him included, "But I am happy," and "If you really loved me I shouldn't have to change." Well no, she didn't have to change, and now she lives alone. Mutual understanding and agreed-upon behavior is necessary to any intimate relationship, regardless of flavor.
YouAreHere
Well-known member
One of my favorite quotes from my ex-husband, not long before we separated, was, "Why do we need to talk? We never talked before."
Um, yeah. And we're in such a great place now, aren't we?
Um, yeah. And we're in such a great place now, aren't we?
- Status