Not jealous, but frustrated

[Sigyn]

My husband's is in early love with a new girl -- (http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70180) and the grieving process I went through is pretty much over with, (my husband being uncannily supportive) but now I have a new problem.

She's ambivalent, and I am so losing patience with the whole damn thing.

Now, before anyone accuses me of getting too involved in "their" relationship, Husband actively wants us both involved -- doesn't want her without me involved in some way -- and the one reasonable conversation we've had on the issue with her, she got a big smile on her face when I offered to be involved, which was the biggest smile she'd had through the whole six hours. There is a possibility that she's more interested in me than she is in him, a development he's perfectly pleased with, and I'm... well, a little ambivalent about myself. Because after all, I am NOT in love with her, though I think she's a sweetie. Or I thought she was.

We had to introduce her to the very concept of Poly (something we're new to ourselves, though we'd known of it all our lives) so it was a very long conversation we had with her, very frank and very clear. She seemed in shock, but she also kept asking questions that someone who wasn't considering it wouldn't have even asked, like, "Well, do you have a piano?" (Two, actually.)

It has now been two weeks, and we haven't seen her since, and she's stood us up twice. Ordinarily, I would take this as a brush off, and I did -- I sent her a message boiling down to, "I'm sorry if we scared you, thank you for a lovely time, and we won't bother you again," which apparently she mistook as me being angry at her -- which I was not at all. She's re-instigated contact since, but we can't even tie her down to a date, where we gave her the choice beforehand of "Platonic, romantic or purely hedonistic" which we're pretty sure covers all bases.

So, she's clearly ambivalent -- excited but confused, interested but unsure -- and I'm losing patience with it all. She has every right to feel any way she feels, but I wish to god she'd just pick a side and stay on it -- either side. When I thought she wasn't going to go for it, I was very sorry for my husband (I think that's probably the definition of the other side of compersion) but now that it's all up in the air again, I'm just throwing my hands up. I don't have time for this shit! She's a 24 year old college student who can play school-hall games. I'm 34, and I've got kids to raise.

My life has been thrown into total chaos for this chick, and even my husband is feeling like he wishes it had never happened. But he feels how he feels, even while he's trying to shut it down (his choice, not mine) it's biological, and not something he can control. (His behavior, of course he can control; his feelings, not so much.)

But how am I supposed to handle this? I liked her, but I'm liking her less and less the longer this drags on. I know we threw her a curve ball, but honestly, how am I supposed to control how I'M feeling, when part of me feels like it shouldn't be my damn problem? I'm not the one in love with her. But I do love him -- more than anything -- and I'd like to keep liking her. What do I do?

And please, nobody tell me that I need to remember to have respect for her feelings. I do. I'm talking about what *I* am going to do, not her. (That's all I have any right to ask, anyway.)

 

[kdt26417]

Not sure what to suggest. Perhaps send her a (carefully-worded) email, indicating that you don't mind what she decides but that you'd like to hear from her about where she stands, one way or another? I'm just thinking that one way or another, communication channels need to be opened to where she is aware of the frustration you and your husband are experiencing, without turning it into the slamming of a door or a dramatic confrontation.

I can certainly understand why you would feel frustrated. I'm assuming she just can't make up her mind and/or is afraid to tell you what she's thinking?

 

[Marcus]

Now, before anyone accuses me of getting too involved in "their" relationship, Husband actively wants us both involved -- doesn't want her without me involved in some way

But how am I supposed to handle this? I liked her, but I'm liking her less and less the longer this drags on. I know we threw her a curve ball, but honestly, how am I supposed to control how I'M feeling, when part of me feels like it shouldn't be my damn problem? I'm not the one in love with her.

You don't want to hear that you are too involved... but you stated that you're frustrated because you are too involved.

In my opinion you've answered your own question.

I get that your husband wants you to be involved in his relationship with this woman for some reason. It's good to want things... it's also good to practice hearing "I know that's what you want, but it's seriously bumming me out so I'm going to step away from this issue and let you deal with it"

Just because your husband wants something doesn't mean you need to pull your hair out to give it to him. I suggest taking a closer look at what *you* want and work from that angle. Getting pissy and frustrated doing something you seem to know isn't your business to begin with seems irrational. Just step out of it... problem solved.

She has every right to feel any way she feels, but I wish to god she'd just pick a side and stay on it -- either side.

Again, it's good to want things, and good to practice dealing with the fact that you don't always get it.

It seems that she isn't going to give you the answer or display the behavior you would prefer. Ok, now that you've established that reality you need to decide what *your* next move is.

She's young, brand new to the concept, has a life of her own, is back and forth about her interest in either of you... I'm not really sure what you are expecting from a person with this description. She's behaving the way she behaves and isn't the problem... your expectation of how she *should* behave is the problem. Accept her for who she is and make your decisions accordingly.

And please, nobody tell me that I need to remember to have respect for her feelings. I do. I'm talking about what *I* am going to do, not her. (That's all I have any right to ask, anyway.)

You seem to know what her feelings are but you haven't come to accept that this is outside of your control (as it should be). You see who she is and seem to resent her for refusing to fit into the mold you want her to fit into.

I suggest working on that. My two cents.

 

[Marcus]

I'm just thinking that one way or another, communication channels need to be opened to where she is aware of the frustration you and your husband are experiencing, without turning it into the slamming of a door or a dramatic confrontation.

I understand what you're going for, but I disagree. This approach assumes that this woman needs to adjust her behavior to suit these two people who she was considering dating. She doesn't need to adjust her behavior for the sake of Sigyn or hubby - Sigyn and hubby need to stop expecting that a cat will suddenly start acting like a dog just because they want it to.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you are dealing in this.

Now, before anyone accuses me of getting too involved in "their" relationship, Husband actively wants us both involved -- doesn't want her without me involved in some way -- and the one reasonable conversation we've had on the issue with her, she got a big smile on her face when I offered to be involved, which was the biggest smile she'd had through the whole six hours.

Just to be clear here, "involved" means "dating her" and possibly "lovers" at some point? Not like "involved in a polyship V and she happens to be my metamour." Right?

There is a possibility that she's more interested in me than she is in him, a development he's perfectly pleased with, and I'm... well, a little ambivalent about myself. Because after all, I am NOT in love with her, though I think she's a sweetie. Or I thought she was.

So you are ambivalent about dating her?

So, she's clearly ambivalent -- excited but confused, interested but unsure -- and I'm losing patience with it all. She has every right to feel any way she feels, but I wish to god she'd just pick a side and stay on it -- either side

YOU are not able to pick a side and stick with it? If you are "meh" on dating her, you are not willing/able to decline dating her because it is not what YOU want?

It is odd to me that you seem to go along with what others want -- either the husband or her. Why not pick what YOU want? Or maybe I'm guessing wrong on that?

But how am I supposed to handle this? I liked her, but I'm liking her less and less the longer this drags on. I know we threw her a curve ball, but honestly, how am I supposed to control how I'M feeling, when part of me feels like it shouldn't be my damn problem? I'm not the one in love with her. But I do love him -- more than anything -- and I'd like to keep liking her. What do I do?

YOU could make a decision so YOU can step out of limbo.

Keep on loving him.
Keep on liking her.
Get rid of the thing you do not want for yourself (dating her) and the thing you dislike (the dragging on-ness).

• "X, I like you in general. Us dating? Doesn't seem like sparks are flying here on your end or on mine, so let's just be friendly metas and leave it there."
  
• "Husband, I know you want us both to date, but it isn't happening. I told her let's not date and just be friendly metas. Leaving it there. Please don't ask me to date your GFs in future. "
  
• "Self: I made a mistake in agreeing to go there when I knew was feeling ambivalent about it. Not self-respecting behavior when I ignore how I really feel. I'm not repeating that."

There. You are out of it. The others are free to choose their next behaviors.

Just because he wants 3 people do something? 1 person wanting it does not mean all 3 people want the same thing. He can handle his disappointment.

Galagirl

 

[fuchka]

While it would be convenient for you for her to be a clear peg, so you can work your emotions etc around that, it's really not that easy.

We don't always know what we want. And, even if we think we're sure, we can change our minds. Othertimes we need time to work it out, othertimes we don't know what we need, we're just trying to get a hold on it... This is totally normal, and it seems like you want this person to feel and communicate with a clarity that suits you, but may not be possible for her right now.

Sure, you could throw in the towel or seek more clarification. But in my opinion, if you or your husband are going to be able to pull off multiple relationships, you'll need to be flexible enough to give people space to be unsure, and space to be open to change.

This means being able to cope with the emotional flurry of someone else being unpredictable. Cos people aren't predictable, and don't always magically fit into our ideal scenarios.

Good luck!

 

[Sigyn]

She doesn't need to adjust her behavior for the sake of Sigyn or hubby - Sigyn and hubby need to stop expecting that a cat will suddenly start acting like a dog just because they want it to.

We don't, and we aren't. And I already said I wasn't expecting anything of the kind, if you read above. I wasn't asking about how to change her behavior -- that's hers. I was asking how I, personally, am supposed to deal with it. Not expecting her to change, or do something different.

And as for the question of what "involved" means, we gave HER that choice, of what way and how much I would be involved. She herself said she'd want me involved in some way.

"Ambivalent" does not mean that I don't really want this thing, but I'm going along with it because he does. It means that I feel both ways about having a romantic/sexual relationship with her, as apart from the platonic one we're already in the process of creating.

It could continue like that, and I'd be content. It could change, and I'm curious about that.

As for exploring aspects of my potential bisexuality, it's new to me, and only showed up during one of the "Oh, gods, our relationship is changing, how are we going to cope with all of this" conversations that my husband and I have had. He mentioned that he couldn't even go so far as to imagine having sex with her -- he was so smitten she was in the glorified angel image in his head at the time -- and I'm an author, so I pointed out, "Hey, *I* can imagine having sex with her," where we realized that women do, actually, turn me on, if I put myself into the position of a man -- something I have done regularly while writing sex scenes. That realization was astonishing to me, and potentially very interesting. But new. Very, very new. Which is why I am ambivalent. Both interested and unsure. So I really do understand where she's coming from. I'm feeling the same thing.

Basically the underlying question is -- without the power of NRE (which my husband has in abundance) to counteract these minor slights, how am I supposed to continue liking someone who is (blamelessly, because this is of course her right) continually putting us through emotional chaos?

 

[kdt26417]

Well liking someone is an emotional state. In my experience, we can't choose our emotions as if we were picking them off a menu.

It's possible that the whole, "Romance? Maybe?" questions are driving all three of you out of your right minds. Would it hurt to remove the romance question from the equation for awhile? Just relate to each other as friends? I of course realize you and your husband would still be romantically connected.

Pick a period of time, a month, three months, six months, a year, whatever. When you get to the end of that period, revisit the romance/triad proposition and see if you're all feeling calmer and more rational about it. Maybe by then the girlfriend will be more decisive, or maybe you'll be feeling more mellow about her indecisiveness. If not, if things are still feeling frustrating and crazy, do the "just friends" thing again for another period of time.

Perhaps you'll decide you're sick of waiting and, quite frankly, sick of her. If that happens, you could tell her (as nicely as possible) that you need to stop being in contact with her.

My advice here could totally suck, that's always possible. Just kicking ideas around and seeing if there's anything that could help.

 

[Sigyn]

It's possible that the whole, "Romance? Maybe?" questions are driving all three of you out of your right minds. Would it hurt to remove the romance question from the equation for awhile? Just relate to each other as friends?...
My advice here could totally suck, that's always possible. Just kicking ideas around and seeing if there's anything that could help.

Actually, that's incredibly good advice, and was what my husband was originally PLANNING on doing when he started spending time with Sweetie. Unfortunately, she literally climbed into his lap crying (pheremones are demons, aren't they?) getting him very attached, unbeknownst to me, and then I invited her into the hot tub the next day, and we always use the hot tub nude. And she's gorgeous -- I'm not even LGBT and I can say that.

Part of it is, she really needs to face a few things, sooner rather than later. She recently underwent a traumatic abortion, (which really was necessary -- given five separate reasons, any one of which would have been reason enough) egged on by an abusive boyfriend, and as part of her recovery from this she's reaching out to everyone -- including a new friend who is also abusive, claims he loves her, has severe, psychotic PTSD, and calls her his "life raft," meaning, of course, that if he cracks and commits suicide, than she "failed" at her "reason for existence." (Oh, and she's also not human. What does a life-raft get out of this relationship?)

In other words, she needs some reason to distance herself from this jag-off, and won't unless she has something stronger and more meaningful. Another friend is introducing her to fetish parties, but he's got a partner, too. And friendship alone isn't going to do it for her. I know it's not our job to rescue her. And really, while that's all part of what's going on in our heads, that's not the real reason.

The real reason is, my husband would find pure friendship extremely difficult. He was finding it difficult when he confessed it all to me. He'd do it if he had to, but he's all but turned into a teenage girl about her. Listening to love songs, checking his e-mail every ten minutes, pricing ten-person vans for our potential extended family. It's cute, very funny, and rather sad -- and he knows this. He's not ACTING like a stalker, but part of him wants to -- or wanted to, the whole obsession thing is waning now that she's so squirrelly, which means fewer dopamine injections, and he's now starting to suffer withdrawal. Thank heavens he has me, or he'd be totally miserable now, as opposed to what he is, which is just regretful and confused.

In fact, this whole thing started out while trying to help her as a friend. He confessed to me expecting me to help him break it off with her completely. I showed him scientific treatises on his biology, pointed out he had no choice, and told him go ahead, it might be fun. I've been enjoying watching his dopamine surges. (And the sex has been great -- ah, nor-epinephrine. Some NRE can be transferred.) But that's the problem -- this isn't fun. If he was enjoying himself, I could get a vicarious thrill (compersion, I presume?) but she's making him miserable, and so all I'm getting is vicarious frustration.

And maybe I just need to write it all out and have someone say, "I hear you," because I don't even know what advice anyone could give me. I'm pretty clever, and I do lots of research, so most questions I can answer on my own. I just wish I knew how to handle vicarious frustration, without building resentment.

 

[bookbug]

To me the toughest thing is watching someone we love suffer.

Different situation from yours, but in being the Philosopher's confidant as he went through a 15 month divorce process, I found no way to completely shut off my emotions to each fresh assault his ex inflicted on him. That said, I had a mantra that helped me not get too wound up:

"I can't fix this for him." This is an important one for me, because I tend to be a fixer and often feel like I "should" fix an issue. I need to remind myself which things are out of my control. Helps me accept the situation a little easier.

Sounds like you may be a fixer too.

 

[GalaGirl]

Thank you for clarifying.

It could continue like that, and I'd be content. It could change, and I'm curious about that.

Basically the underlying question is -- without the power of NRE (which my husband has in abundance) to counteract these minor slights, how am I supposed to continue liking someone who is (blamelessly, because this is of course her right) continually putting us through emotional chaos?

My suggestion is basically the same though. You could decide to end the trying to date bit. You could choose contentment for yourself instead.

It could be possible that this person with all that going on in her life right now is not fit for healthy dating at this time. Either by you or DH or anyone. I think those things are a lot to be dealing with. Any one of those major things could need time and appropriate help to process.... Abortion, abusive ex bf, odd sounding PTSD life raft "friend" glomming on etc.

I would be concerned about her trying to make DH and/or you her "life raft" when what she may need is professional care to help her heal from these things. In her "reaching out to everyone" has she already reached out to professional care like a counselor, abuse support group, or similar?

Galagirl

 

[sparklepop]

Sigyn,

I hear you.

I understand what it's like to be messed around by a squirelly type, I understand trying to like and include someone who we perhaps wouldn't bond with in other circumstances, and I understand how it feels to experience vicarious negativity.

There could be many things at play here. It could be that she's only interested in one of you, that she feels pushed or overwhelmed, confused, or even that she's not ready for this right now. Could be that your poly talk was like a lecture, too heavy-handed, too condescending. Could have not scared her off, but put her off. Based on what she's been through and is going through, that might be your answer right there: current status = squirrely. Could accept squirrely as the current answer.

If you do want to open the lines of communication, I would recommend staying away from phrases like "we won't bother you again". Phrases like this don't make dialogue easy and can actually sound passive aggressive. If you want to encourage a squirrel to come to you, you gently allow the squirrel to feel safe. In human terms, you allow people to feel safe to be honest about their feelings. You ask questions and enquire into their experiences.

I know you're frustrated right now, but it could help you a lot to step away from the biology and focus on human empathy. While hormones and science have a place and can be fun and helpful tools that you clearly have some affinity or experience with, they can cause us to depersonalise people. It could help you not to think of her as a 24 year old sweet trainwreck who can play schoolyard games, while describing yourself as a stable, older mother who has better things to deal with. Why the animosity? You are two women trying to relate. Two women on an equal footing with unique experiences and histories.

You say that you don't have time for this crap...

Well, then stop making time for it. Remove yourself from the situation.

In terms of asking her on dates - I follow a 2:1 ratio of contact and invitation with people. If I've been the first to contact, or the first to suggest a date, twice in a row, it's then down to the other person to make the first move at least once before I will make the first move again. This stops me from chasing people too aggressively and also helps me to recognise if they are doing all the work.

You ask how you are supposed to like her. I think you are trying to wait out your emotions until they match your beliefs and aspirations. Right now, I think that you don't actively like her. Not that you necessarily dislike - just not like. You could accept that, or you could try to bond by reaching out and seeing her experiences as if you were in her shoes. Soften yourself and remind yourself that she is not likely to be actively trying to hurt you. That might help you to like her.

Part of you feels that it shouldn't be your problem. Until you actively withdraw, you are consenting to this being your problem. When you agreed to explore friendship or more, you consented to highs and lows.

The same applies to your experience of vicarious negativity. When we agree to be poly, we agree to accept some amount of interrelation, whether positive or negative. There are going to be times when hubby is miserable for weeks or months after a breakup, just as there will be NRE and happy times. It's up to you to choose how much you want to expose yourself to, and it's ok to clear off for the day or not be willing to experience too much of that. Your boundaries are yours. But the bad stuff will come, and might linger.

Furthermore, she's not making him miserable, and she didn't get him attached. He feels miserable and he got attached. He can't choose to be miserable or not, but he can choose to withdraw rather than stay in squirrely situation, or choose to open communication with her. He could choose to distract himself and to be careful with NRE in the future to avoid such a heavy crash. (I do believe NRE can be handled, and don't believe we have to allow it to run riot in our hearts).

The reason I say all of this is that you ask how to avoid resentment. In my experience, resentment bubbles up when we blame someone for some unhappiness we are feeling. In your case, you will resent her if you blame her. If you own your own stuff here, resentment is less likely.

 

[Sigyn]

Sigyn,

I hear you.

Thanks.

I know you're frustrated right now, but it could help you a lot to step away from the biology and focus on human empathy. While hormones and science have a place and can be fun and helpful tools that you clearly have some affinity or experience with, they can cause us to depersonalise people.

That is a point. It's my coping mechanism when I don't get something -- including myself. You should have seen my research on postpartum depression! Not everyone thinks like that, and while part of me feels like they'd find life easier if they did, not everyone finds knowledge particularly helpful when trying to deal with the overwhelming. Thanks for pointing that out.

It could help you not to think of her as a 24 year old sweet trainwreck who can play schoolyard games, while describing yourself as a stable, older mother who has better things to deal with. Why the animosity? You are two women trying to relate. Two women on an equal footing with unique experiences and histories.

You know, I hadn't noticed that undercurrent, but you're right, it's there (though I've never thought train-wreak. Wounded, yes.) I just get frustrated with the sheer lack of communication. Even a "no" or a "not right now" would really be helpful.

You ask how you are supposed to like her. I think you are trying to wait out your emotions until they match your beliefs and aspirations. Right now, I think that you don't actively like her.

Actually, that's not true -- I DO like her. I like her style, her sense of humor, her compassion, her passion. I don't like the lack of communication, which is a behavior of hers, which I do not have any right to try and change, but I find frustrating. Of course, in any relationship there will be things you like and don't like, and we've only just met her.

Furthermore, she's not making him miserable, and she didn't get him attached. He feels miserable and he got attached. He can't choose to be miserable or not, but he can choose to withdraw rather than stay in squirrely situation, or choose to open communication with her. He could choose to distract himself and to be careful with NRE in the future to avoid such a heavy crash. (I do believe NRE can be handled, and don't believe we have to allow it to run riot in our hearts).

No, it's not her fault, and we both know this. Maybe biology "did it to him" but she is blameless. And the thing is, he doesn't actually do this. It's never happened before, which is why it's been so chaos inducing. He hates it, and is totally addicted to it. He can shut it down, actually, and he knows it. (He's been trying, and he misses it.) He's told me never to let crying women into his lap again, he can't stand the heartache! We were both happy where we were. But she didn't do it in any active sense. It just happened. Life does.

Actually, this has been an overwhelmingly positive experience on the whole, and I've already thanked her for doing wonderful things in our relationship, no matter what happens in the future. I'm just mostly all alone in coping with it, because I don't really have people to talk to closer than two hundred miles away, apart from my husband, who is of course involved. I did go and talk to my friend 200 miles away a couple weeks ago, who just happens to be a speaker on Poly at conferences (talk about convenient!) but I don't have a regular ear. Thanks everyone for listening. Anything else anyone has to say will still be appreciated.

 

[GalaGirl]

I just get frustrated with the sheer lack of communication. Even a "no" or a "not right now" would really be helpful.

I don't like the lack of communication, which is a behavior of hers, which I do not have any right to try and change, but I find frustrating.

Have you asked her if she could be willing to communicate a bit more --- enough to say "No" or "Not right now" when you ask her things?

You can't DEMAND she change her behavior, but you could politely REQUEST if she'd be willing to consider it.

Galagirl

 

[Sigyn]

It's complicated. But yes, we've tried. *shrug* It is what it is. Thanks.