What about the Kids?

[FullofLove1052]

Always interesting points and commentary. I like the idea of the thread for Children of Poly. Kevin, you posed very valid questions.

Re: Making time for a partner. In looking at my past schedule, I had no time to cut from my job (I had minimal say until I gained leverage), child(ren) (right), sleep schedule (insomnia loved me until I crashed), hobbies (if sleeping counts), spouse (unless you consider that 15 minute exchange post-overnight), etc. It was even more convoluted because my spouse refused to lose anytime with our children in the evenings. My children never stayed at my ex's house. After working all day and being away from them, who was I to tell him, "So we are going to her house. You can see them tomorrow night--if your work schedule permits. If not, rain check. Okay?" I feel out of line for saying that. Me time? Haha. As far as me, if I saw my child(ren) for breakfast on the morning of scheduled overnights with my ex, that was where it ended because I would go straight to her house from work. If they were lucky and work did not interfere, they might have seen me the next night for bedtime. That was not always the case. I can remember days where I did not see my youngest daughter at all. No hobby could keep me out of the house like that. Gambling or drinking, maybe. I rarely do either. Trimming time is the ideal thing. Lesson: if you do not have it to trim, you do not have time for it. For me, it was that damn relationship.

Sidebar: Having a mono spouse who was tolerant of poly also meant she was not really welcome in our home. That is how I ended up at her home without them. He resented the idea of a third parent. Thus, overnights were rare in our home until the end, and even then, he grew sick of her and asked her to step back. Proverbial line being drawn in the sand from his POV. The line was our family on this side and her way over there somewhere. I could not say to him, "I do not want this person in my home because it is my sanctuary," and proceed to invite the one person he craved distance from in the same breath. He could and did flip that on me. If I knew I did not like feeling put out of my home, I had to be mindful of his feelings regarding that, too. What would I have looked like asking him to leave so a guest could stay? It made more sense for me to outsource so to speak.

I am sure there are poly parents who swear they are doing what is best for their children. Some parents probably ignore the red flags. I did. My child grew tired of pretending like she was happy. The trigger that caused her to spiral was a situation at her school that left her feeling like she needed me, but her subconscious told her I was unavailable or inaccessible like all the other times. She lashed out at me because she was mad at herself for believing that I could possibly be available to her when my past conduct contradicted that.

Truthfully, there are mono parents who think they are good parents and doing a good job. I have met a lot of people with mummy and daddy issues who came from "good" homes. I have also met an equal number of royally screwed people who did come from good homes. Parents cannot be blamed for everything. Our childhoods certainly impact us and shape us. Good or bad.

Re: Parenting Success or Failure. What constitutes the measure of failure? Is it your child telling you they hate you? Is it your child not inviting you to their wedding or introducing you and your "poisonous" ways to their children? Is it your child refusing to visit you when you are on your death bed? Who knows? What is the measure of success? Is it being in an old age home and still getting visits from your children? Is it still having relationships with them when they are raising their own families? Is it asking forgiveness, receiving it, and getting it right the second time? Is it getting a child to the point of graduating? Is it keeping your child out of jail and off drugs? Is it raising a child to 18? I think there are quite a few facets. The parents might believe they did the best they could, but the now-grown up child might beg to differ and vow to be nothing like them. Is that to say the parents failed? Failure is subjective. As is success.

 

[KerryRen]

Do the people on the aforementioned list think because their children were born and raised into such a dynamic and dont know anything different /kept home schooled (cloistered ) and they appear happy then its a success ?

All children currently associated with my relationships are/have been public schooled. That said, homeschooling isn't necessarily cloistering; all those I met growing up had very active social lives. They just weren't forcibly age-segregrated. Other homeschoolers do go the isolation route. Homeschooling varies a lot depending on the participants.

Mind your assumptions there. Loading the question isn't a very good argument technique.

Versus an mid childhood intro and transition. " kids ...family meeting ...mom's discover she bi and were going to open up our marriage and date other people" and depending upon the reaction from that and how long it lasts again its counted as a success.

Pretty much like any relationship. Is it a success if it lasts one year? One decade? A lifetime? Lifetime monogamy has a high failure rate, yet it is still touted as the natural default. If all your friends and family support the relationship, is it a success? Does everyone in your family have to achieve the American Dream to count your family and its relationships a success?

Does everyone -- children included -- have to be happy? I'd opt for that one, personally. But judging someone else's happiness, even my own children, is hard to to do from the outside.

As Ry pointed out how many people do time splits and leave the spouse and kids to go be with the other lovers. How can it not effect the kids ....I cant imagine how you can spin this?

Serial monogamists do this, too, except they have no spouse to leave with their kids. Why not question their behavior? Some do, of course, taking the stand that single moms and dads should devote all their nonwork hours to their kids, and until they're successfully out of the nest, should not date anyone else. It seems a bit harsh. (And who watches the kids while they work? Someone has to).

The next question would be how do we define failure ?

A good question, but you're probably not going to find a solid standard.

Poly is tried and family ripped apart ?

Families rip apart in monogamy, too, yet increasingly we're not defining divorce as failure of anything.

kids losing or not having a relationship with parents ??

Also applies to monogamy and divorce, but we're abolishing neither institution.

Shall we list the seemly happy poly dynamics that ended in divorce.

If divorce is your gold standard, the world is full of relationship and family failures. But most aren't affected by poly, which has a fairly tiny percentage of practitioners.

 

[dingedheart]

I apologize for having to make this short I'm off to another soccer tournament but I want to clarify a couple things. It seems like some people took my remarks as being aimed at them. As I havent the time or desire to be active her in some time I dont know all the histories /back stories. Secondly I was asking a question in the parameters of a hypothetical. It seems to me logical that a child born into a poly fi triad wont have the same issue or adjustment that a teenager who had it dropped on them at Sunday dinner. AND thus the subjective "damage" and or "success " of that transition would vary greatly.


Sorry about the formatting ...I think RP's avatar is cool and it was there when I copied and pasted word Doc working on it when I had time. It got lost on the transfer back to the forum. As far as readership its not something I care about ...as far as Im concerned I was talking to Kev...he took the time to move this and make it a stand alone thread.....that others might appreciate. While I might not agree with some of his opinions I applaud his desire for vigorous discussion and for that I thank him.


My comment on time split based on conversations with Vodkafan, Ry, and my own kids. My daughter said many times ...."she chose that over us "

Whem I was little my dad was salesmen/account manager in industrial fasteners industry....he was gone from Sunday night/Monday morning til thur or Friday ...he might show up Wednesdays to sleep.

Did I ever want him to be gone ...look forward to him leaving NO. Did it suck he never ( rarely ) saw any of my sports stuff YES. Did things come up in wish I wished he was home YES all the time. The trade off was our lifestyle.... big new house...etc. I'm not sure how I would have processed the fact he was gone to be with another lover.

Ive sent some Pm's asking for comments/opinions of this thread....I'll sent a few more today or tomorrow.

I sent one Polylicious, GorgeousKitten, etc.....Gk said she was pretty raw at this time and would take a pass on participating.


I found this first person account in this very discussion (coming out to kids ) which echoes things both pro and con .

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Old 07-26-2009, 03:42 PM
XYZ123 XYZ123 is offline
Senior Member

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 369

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlkDaddy4White View Post
I personally dont think its something the kids should know...especially if they are YOUNG...teenagers you cant hide that sort of thing from...but i think all you do with yuonger kids is confuse them and open them up to the type of problems that we ALL dont think they should be open too.

I have to disagree. My parents were in relationships outside their marriage when myself and my siblings were young (though those relationships were complicated and I wouldn't consider them the true meaning of poly). They thought they did well to hide it. We all knew. Even my brother by the age of three sensed something different about that friendship. We caught them out on it all the time and it wasn't as if they weren't being careful. Kids are smarter than most adults give them credit for. Being lied to hurt and confused us more than anything they did with the lights out. We also had to deal with the whispers of other adult family members over it and the confusion of why our parents would do something they must know was wrong since they wouldn't tell us the truth. We all came to hate and resent the other couple our parents were involved with and it led to some pretty nasty family fights.

They are still deeply involved with the other couple, though I don't know entirely the nature of that relationship anymore. As an adult I can mentally and emotionally handle it (most of the time) and it helped that my mother FINALLY (only a year ago) admitted some of what had happened more than 20 years ago. But the lies and secrecy and resent have pretty much destroyed the respect and trust within the entire family, including between my parents who are still unhappily married. The damage done and the feeling that their outside relationships must be "wrong" and "abnormal" (based on what others said and the refusal of my parents to discuss it with me) is in part what caused me to repress my bisexuality, cheat on my former partners rather than even entertain the idea I might be poly, and stay in abusive relationships with men because "at least a male/female relationship was normal". I thank the gods I have the husband I do who saw and accepted me for what I was even before I could look in the proverbial mirror.

The bottom line is that the kids don't have to know the dynamics of the sexual relationship but NEVER lie to them or try to hide from them the nature of the relationship. It's about balancing the details with their level of understanding and maturity, not hiding it until they're old enough to figure it out on their own and be confused and resentful for feeling deceived.

here's and example of having poly dropped on kids ...the text below is clipped from this link http://www.polyamory.com/forum/member.php?u=20666

Default When the kids are not taking poly well...

About 2 months ago we sat down our kids and told them about me, their father, being poly. They knew their mother to be bisexual for the past 3 years (when she came out to them) and they knew she has dated women once or twice (they were not cool with that either). Our kids are 18, 16, 13 and 11. We are former LDS/Mormon (so yeah, on top of societal and cultural programming, and having lived all their lives in a mono-mindset, there's vestiges of religious expectations likely floating around too -- though these are never expressed by us or them).

18yr old son asked if we were divorcing, seeing and hearing we weren't, he said "ok, it's cool with me if you're Open".

16yr old daughter put up her hands to her ears and said "what?! No! This is not happening!" and left the living room. A few weeks later we were going to have my girlfriend visit (and sleep over... she's a 2.5 hour drive away) and my daughter looked at me with tears in her eyes and said "please don't do this to me" (we didn't). I saw her facebook from the week we told her and it was full of allusions to her crying and her family having gone 'cray-cray'.

13yr old daughter was quiet. Since then she's met my girlfriend and visited her home with me and our 11 year old and my wife on a few trips. Talked, walked, fished, hung out. About a week ago I learned she's been crying herself to sleep 'almost every night' though she smiles and talks like she's 'ok', she's clearly not. She also will about weekly share that she's not ok with this arrangement, but no vehemently, more matter-of-factly.

11yr old daughter hyperventilated. Bawled. Could not be consoled for a full half hour. We thought we'd have to take her to the hospital. Over the past 2 months she has daily cried and expressed fears of losing her parents, losing her father, being left alone, asked why I hate her so much, why I'm leaving her and the family, why she's not enough for me, why is mommy not enough for me, why is our family not enough for me.

I've answered her questions the best I can, however it's not really all that much better. There is progress though - she's not hyperventilating all the time, but the crying is intense and the emotional pain is, well, it's really like I'm hurting her is how I feel and how I experience it, me, her father, is inflicting this huge emotional anxiety causing pain on my daughter. And now it's about me not wanting her to have this pain (and me not wanting to feel the pain of causing her pain). I tried the narrative thing and just let her talk and vent and answer her questions and help her feel safe and see she's safe and see our family is safe. We tried the bring her to visit the girlfriend and get to know her and see we're all safe and that Mommy is good too (we all would visit and hang out etc.). We've tried everything we know how to do.

I read here about examples of children getting better when they find out... but now I think it's me who's hit a wall and I don't think I can last another 2 months or 2 days. I feel like a horrible parent and selfish person for causing my children pain and I don't know how to make it better except to either stop doing what I love and what completes me (poly and my girlfriend) and or lie to them and say we're back to just being friends (this 'lie' is what they believed the first 10 months of our relationship as we never told them otherwise).

Anyway... open to advice.

Maybe I just needed some narrative therapy myself.

Thanks for listening.
__________________
~ Polylicious

"You're neither unnatural, nor abominable, nor mad; you're as much a part of what people call nature as anyone else; only you're unexplained as yet -- you've not got your niche in creation." ~ The Well of Loneliness, 1928 — Radclyffe Hall
Last edited by polylicious; 06-11-2012 at 05:48 AM.

^ Is this better formatting ?

 

[kdt26417]

My (monogamous -- serial monogamous eventually) parents are good people who did the best they could to raise me, and were quite confident of their parenting style at the time. However, in retrospect, they are thinking maybe they didn't parent so well after all. Their kids are pretty much in unanimous agreement that they were bad parents -- and that started to be the case long before the kids had grown up.

They did all the things good parents are supposed to do. Stayed married for the sake of the kids (even though it was a painful marriage). Worked hard to provide for us and keep house. Spent plenty of time with us. Disciplined us so that we'd do well in school and act well in society. Took us to church and sent us to public school. Took us on many outings and family reunions. Lavished us with presents on Christmas morning ... etc. etc. etc.

Mom's temper and Dad's cluelessness were (I think) the two big areas in which they failed us. In all other areas they were a success. Yet, because of those two lone vices, we see them as crappy parents overall. I do at least. I know longer think of them as my parents (other than in the biological sense). The best they and I can do now is be (non-familial) friends. Which isn't a horrible ending (to an unhappy story), come to think of it.

Judging how well parents (poly or mono) do is a really complicated proposition. At the end of the day we'll be stuck with our various biased perceptions and opinions. We can make general statements that hint at success or failure, but the verdict is in the eye of each individual reader.

Good posts, FullofLove1052, KerryRen, dingedheart.

Re (from dingedheart):

"It seems to me logical that a child born into a poly fi triad won't have the same issue or adjustment that a teenager who had it dropped on them at Sunday dinner."

I agree that it would tend to be a challenging adjustment for the teenager. I think some teens handle it easier than others. Let's keep in mind though, FullofLove1052's daughter took the worst damage from the poly situation before reaching age five. So it's not always a matter of how old the child is.

Re: XYZ123's story ... was interesting and validates something I tend to think, which is that the kids are likely to figure stuff out on their own (or at least a warped version of it) if Mom and Dad don't sit them down and have a talk about it.

Re: polylicious' story ... definitely counts as an example where poly is hurting (at least some of) the kids. I think there's a chance things might get easier if years pass and things remain stable and (as) normal (as a poly life can be). But I can't guarantee that.

I was struck by the fact that the 11-year-old's issues about it resembled the issues one's (struggling monogamous) spouse might have. I don't think you can always "explain it away" when someone is that upset. It's a problem of having your world turned upside-down when you were depending on the rightside-up version of your world to hold your psyche together.

 

[dingedheart]

current events

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70736

 

[HelloSweety]

Ok I'm going to say this and it's going to be harsh, but it is my opinion. Why in the fuck are parents telling there kids about there sex lives? I mean if the kids ASK then sure.

But honestly if my parents started telling me about there sex life it would traumatize me! And I'm a grown adult! Anyone except my parents and grandparents are allowed to have a sex life. As an adult I STILL don't want to think of my parents having sex. Ever! I can't be the only person that wants to gag at that thought. So this is my first issue.

Secondly, with cases such as the one a PP mentioned where the parents sat down there teens-Tweens to come out to all of there kids. It makes me wonder if they even took into consideration the background they had raised there children with. I mean seriously you raised your kids in the LDS community and you want to sit them all down and tell them your now poly? Please tell me I'm not the only person that sees that oncoming train wreck?

Yes I am in a poly relationship and I have a small child, but I'm not telling her about it. Is it part of her normal? Yes. Is that a bad thing? Maybe it is. But I don't see any adverse effects on her at this time. And I am extremely attentive to my child. My world revolves around her. Everything else comes second or further.

 

[RichardInTN]

Ok I'm going to say this and it's going to be harsh, but it is my opinion. Why in the fuck are parents telling there kids about there sex lives? I mean if the kids ASK then sure.

But honestly if my parents started telling me about there sex life it would traumatize me! And I'm a grown adult! Anyone except my parents and grandparents are allowed to have a sex life. As an adult I STILL don't want to think of my parents having sex. Ever! I can't be the only person that wants to gag at that thought. So this is my first issue.

Secondly, with cases such as the one a PP mentioned where the parents sat down there teens-Tweens to come out to all of there kids. It makes me wonder if they even took into consideration the background they had raised there children with. I mean seriously you raised your kids in the LDS community and you want to sit them all down and tell them your now poly? Please tell me I'm not the only person that sees that oncoming train wreck?

Yes I am in a poly relationship and I have a small child, but I'm not telling her about it. Is it part of her normal? Yes. Is that a bad thing? Maybe it is. But I don't see any adverse effects on her at this time. And I am extremely attentive to my child. My world revolves around her. Everything else comes second or further.

Questions can come up about the family dynamic that has nothing to do with who's genitals are coming into contact with whom's.

When a spouse comes in from work, quite often there will be a "welcome home" kiss... in poly families that can happen too. This can also happen at departure times.

Even without sex involved, kids know what room Mommy and Daddy are sleeping in... In a poly situation those rooms can be different or maybe the triad all sleep in the same bed. It's not sex, but it's a fact that kids notice.

Maybe it's just a hug in passing or some other thing that's not taboo for kids to know about... but they also can happen with polys.

 

[HelloSweety]

I agree with that, but if the kids aren't asking about it and are clearly ok with that then why in the hell sit them down and intentionally screw with there heads? That's what I don't get. And I'm sorry but when you raise your kids (by kids in this instance I mean under 18, though all kids are different) LDS then sit them down to tell them your poly you KNOW your going to fuck there minds. And if you don't your delusional.

I'm not saying lie to the kids. Please don't missunderstand me. I think the point I'm trying to get across is that, at least in my experience. When kids want to know something they will ask. I don't think forcing info on them is a good thing. But if they ask then yes answer them. But obviously focus on (assuming that it is) everything between mommy and daddy being fine. I guess I don't see anyone in any of the examples of things going badly going about it in that way. They all seem to be doing this group sit down stuff.

 

[LovingRadiance]

We didn't tell our kids about our sex lives.
We told them about our love lives.

Polyamory-multiple loves.

We told them about our love lives AND THEN left it open for them to ask questions.

Why?

Because honesty is a key component of any relationship and we choose to have honest, forthright relationships with our children. We consider them people first, children second. Thus-like any other people in our lives, we treat them with respect and we are honest and forthright with them.

It seems to have worked well.

 

[ClockworkDragon]

I recently told my 6 and 8 year olds about our polyamory. I wasn't really wanting to, but my husband insisted; he's been bringing his girlfriends home, and spending time around the kids, and was tired of having to hide hand-holding and snuggling.

So we told them that sometimes grownups love other people. That mommy and daddy weren't getting divorced, but special friends might come over sometimes. And that just like when we get naked sometimes (we've been caught a time or two) what happens in our family is only our family's business.

That's enough, for now. IF they out us, we'll deal with it. WE're not out, yet; he's told his sister, but that's it.

The kids? Don't care. THey're young enough that it's no big deal. THey know that a shut bedroom door means no entry, and that's plenty.

I had to have the Talk with my 8 year old the other day since she caught us on the couch. They're smart kids. Though we haven't been at this long, honestly, it hasn't affected them. They like my hubby's girlfriends, and my oldest is playing with her daughter tonight. MOre playmates are good, right?

Time will tell how it goes from there.

 

[dingedheart]

I got this email from another forum member who was dating a married man.

Because of continued hostilities even after they broke up 6 months ago she didnt want to post it herself....in fear of potential harassment.

The effect of poly on children is not limited to the primary relationship.

I was a secondary for several years. Head over heals in love with a man who was not only my lover but my friend. As our NRE grew, so did his desire to spend more time with me. In the beginning, he could only come over every other weekend when my kids were with their dad. To make more time happen, we had discussed him meeting my children so that he could be present when they were at home. He was excited to do that and honored that I would trust him and care for him that much to introduce him to the 2 most important people of my life.

They got along famously. I believe they brought out a jovial, carefree, fun side of him that he maybe didn't even realize he had. He taught them new things, showed them new places, made them giggle and smile. His presence was never intended to be that of a father figure, but a fun friend who made their mommy smile and included them. They have a wonderful father, replacing him wasn't an option or a motivation.

But his partner thought otherwise. In the midst of a long list of other issues she was suddenly having based on her own jealousy and insecurity, she had drawn a line in the sand, created a hard limit and demanded he cease all interaction with my children. I wasn't aware of this at the time. He would suddenly make excuses on my kid's weekend and reschedule for a weekday once they were gone, or cancel altogether. After several months of this, and dealing with my children asking if he was coming over, why didn't they ever see him, feeling it was unfair that I saw him and they didn't, starting to wonder what they were doing wrong, making promises that this time they would go to bed on time or not fight or whatever to ensure he came back, I finally asked. And he told me. Her Hard Limit. His partner feared that I was scouting him to be a father to my children and would hence leave her for me and my kids.

Really? Seriously? Are you f'ing kidding me?

Not only that, but it was confirmed that to coddle her, he told her that he was annoyed by my kids and that he didn't want to be around them so he would stop. How do you think that felt for me to hear that? These are my precious human beings with hearts and minds that he asked to get to know, and I agreed, that he was fucking off on, on her command.

He did break that commitment to her a couple of times but my kids, by that time, had grown distant to him, scared for their feelings, aloof, acting out, not the same kids who had grown to enjoy him. Then when I explained that to him, he was hurt, offended, upset that I thought it was a mistake to introduce him to my precious children. But yes, if I had known that she would exert such a command and he would abide, I would have thought twice.

As a single parent, one of the biggest challenges I face is when to introduce a new boyfriend to my children. I can say that there have only been 2 in my 7 years of dating. Children get attached and they mourn when they lose someone close to them. When someone just walks away, like in a divorce or friendship, it is a roller coaster. This person CHOSE something else over them and they DO take it personally. Maybe it doesn't manifest right away, maybe it takes awhile but they do feel it. And it is damaging.

As a single parent, I am keenly aware of the effects of ANY relationship I have with ANYONE other than them. Relationships with their father, with their stepmother or step-family, relationships with my friends or family, relationships with lovers or boyfriends.

Yes, through a divorce, there is loss. Absolutely. But usually the other parent is still around to varying degrees. But in these poly breakups where there is no emotional or legal stake, it is pure loss and in their eyes, rejection. Often they are also witnessing and scared or confused by the feelings of loss by the parent left behind, or confused and scared as to who is going to enter, then leave again. It is inevitable that there is detachment from someone in the family.

We worry about who our children interact with outside the home. Who are their friends, who are they dating, who are they hanging out with, who are they meeting when they go out, who will influence their decisions. How about who are we bringing into their lives and realistically how long will they stay around , we know most of the poly relationships are very transient and hardly life long... how much interaction should they have, how much acceptance is expected, how much do we expose them to and why should our personal love and sex lives have to be shoved in their faces? Kids are kids for just a short while and it's tough enough today to be a kid. Why would we make that any more challenging on them than it already is?

I know there are many other Secondaries out there who have felt a similar loss when the Primary partner(s) suddenly decide to change all the rules of engagement. We are left behind to not only pick up the pieces of our own lives from being disposed of often due to jealousy and insecurity or a sense of entitlement or boredom, but then to explain such a stupid loss to our children.

I am dating again. But it will be a cold day in hell before any man ever has that chance to get that close to my kids. There will be a ring on my left finger and a date set before I ever go down that path of jeopardizing their emotions needlessly again.

LR ..

..didnt macca move out twice as a result of being hit with poly or being unable to deal ?
How did you insulate the kids from the tension in the build up to that ...and they were fine with him leaving...they didnt miss their dad ??? How long was he gone each time ? Of all the people you know in real life and through forums and internet chat is your situation the rule or the exception ?

 

[Hannahfluke]

Our kids were almost 13 and almost 15 when we opened up our marriage. Since we weren't sure exactly what was going to happen, we didn't tell them for a few months. Then one night, after me, my husband, his girlfriend, and another friend went to a concert together, my 15 year old (they'd both had their birthdays by this time) walked into the garage where my husband was giving his girlfriend a goodbye hug and kiss. At that point we sat them down and told them that we had opened our marriage, that Dad loved his girlfriend also, and that it didn't mean we were getting a divorce. That the only thing that it changed is that Mom and Dad now were also dating other people.

That was five years ago. My husband is still dating the same girlfriend and has also dated a few other people. I've dated people but am not really dating anyone right now. Do my kids know we have sex with these other people? Yes, because our bed can be squeaky and because they aren't stupid. Two adults disappearing into a bedroom together for a while usually means one of two things. Do we directly talk to them about it? Not really, because they don't ask questions and so we figure they don't really want to know. We try to respect their feelings.

How do they feel about us being poly? They think we're weird and initially said it wasn't something they could do. The younger one, who is 18 now, still says that he doesn't think he could date someone who is poly and doesn't want to be poly himself. The older one, who is 20 now, says that dating someone who is poly would certainly make explaining his parents' love lives a lot easier. When we've asked, they've commented that no, they don't think us being poly has been detrimental to their lives.

 

[HelloSweety]

I recently told my 6 and 8 year olds about our polyamory. I wasn't really wanting to, but my husband insisted; he's been bringing his girlfriends home, and spending time around the kids, and was tired of having to hide hand-holding and snuggling.

So we told them that sometimes grownups love other people. That mommy and daddy weren't getting divorced, but special friends might come over sometimes. And that just like when we get naked sometimes (we've been caught a time or two) what happens in our family is only our family's business.

That's enough, for now. IF they out us, we'll deal with it. WE're not out, yet; he's told his sister, but that's it.

The kids? Don't care. THey're young enough that it's no big deal. THey know that a shut bedroom door means no entry, and that's plenty.

I had to have the Talk with my 8 year old the other day since she caught us on the couch. They're smart kids. Though we haven't been at this long, honestly, it hasn't affected them. They like my hubby's girlfriends, and my oldest is playing with her daughter tonight. MOre playmates are good, right?

Time will tell how it goes from there.

This I agree with. You explained things as they are. You reassured them that this doesn't mean divorce, and you left things open for them to ask questions. You also acknowledge that there human and intelligent. And I'm glad it's going well for you

 

[kdt26417]

Re: http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70736 ... have read it and now responded to it. Important thread and certainly an example of how poly can hurt the life of your children. I have to say, Jane being away for 4-5 days per week is ridiculous.

Re (from HelloSweety):

"When kids want to know something they will ask."

Hmmm, interesting. I think I'm inclined to agree (though it's a rule with possible exceptions).

Okay, example exception. Everything has appeared normal (read: monogamous) up until the day a woman (whom the kids have never met) shows up and sits with Dad on the couch. The two hold hands, kiss, snuggle, etc. ... The kids stare at this spectacle but don't want to ask (perhaps out of fear that this means Mom and Dad are about to break up, and not wanting to know that). In that scenario, perhaps it would be wise to give the kids notice ahead of time about what they might see and what it does and doesn't mean?

Although ... in Hannahfluke's post ... notice ahead of time was not, as turns out, needed. I suppose a lot of it has to do with knowing the unique mindset of each of your kids -- as well as the details of the context.

Re (sent to dingedheart):

"After several months of this, and dealing with my children asking if he was coming over, why didn't they ever see him, feeling it was unfair that I saw him and they didn't, starting to wonder what they were doing wrong, making promises that this time they would go to bed on time or not fight or whatever to ensure he came back, I finally asked. And he told me. Her Hard Limit."

Ugh, he should have made that known long before she had to ask him. Removing yourself, without explanation, from the lives of kids who love to see you, is not cool.

Re:

"He did break that commitment to her a couple of times but my kids, by that time, had grown distant to him, scared for their feelings, aloof, acting out, not the same kids who had grown to enjoy him. Then when I explained that to him, he was hurt, offended, upset that I thought it was a mistake to introduce him to my precious children. But yes, if I had known that she would exert such a command and he would abide, I would have thought twice."

Yeah I agree with her. He should have told her ahead of time if his removal from her kids' lives might happen at the drop of a hat.

Re:

"I am dating again. But it will be a cold day in Hell before any man ever has that chance to get that close to my kids. There will be a ring on my left finger and a date set before I ever go down that path of jeopardizing their emotions needlessly again."

Reasonable enough.

 

[LovingRadiance]

LR ..

..didnt macca move out twice as a result of being hit with poly or being unable to deal ?
How did you insulate the kids from the tension in the build up to that ...and they were fine with him leaving...they didnt miss their dad ??? How long was he gone each time ? Of all the people you know in real life and through forums and internet chat is your situation the rule or the exception ?

Yes-Maca moved out twice, I don't know that I can honestly say it was due to being hit with poly, but that was certainly the "last straw".
His psycho ex-wife who was harassing us for 10 years was certainly a MAJOR part of the chaos and trouble in our relationship.
But-the more important point I think is; how did we insulate the kids.

First of all, our issues were never about the kids. Unlike many people, we chose to be conscious of that. From the very beginning of our relationship, our priority was to never undermine any of the parental-adults in the eyes of our children. That included my current boyfriend, because he was already a key parental player to my daughter before Maca and I ever got together.

When Maca moved out, we found a place for him that was walking distance from our house. The kids were told that he needed some time to work through some issues he was struggling with and that was hard to do in a busy house (a concept they understood perfectly well because as home school kids they often needed to go to the library to find a quiet place to do their work-because SO MANY people lived in our household).
There was no "schedule" for them. They had keys to both homes and could come and go as they pleased, as long as they left a note.

Additionally; we weren't at war. We *all* realized we were trying to find solutions to problems that most people just walk away from. We knew we were going to have to be creative and that it wasn't going to be easy to find what would work.

Maca and I continued to have date nights while we lived apart. We talked on the phone. I still managed the finances (which meant paying bills for two homes, coordinating groceries for both homes etc).

We didn't and don't try to keep it a secret that we have encountered issues and struggles in our lives. We do try to make a point of teaching the kids that issues and struggles WILL arise in ANY situation and the key is facing those issues head on, taking time outs when you are emotionally keyed up, using creative, out of the box thinking to find solutions that are win-win for all parties involved.

To be frank; I think one of the biggest issues children face today is parents who try to insulate them from the real world.
In the real world, we encounter all sorts of situations that SUCK. That's called LIFE. Learning how to navigate shitty situations while simultaneously prioritizing your own well-being, upholding personal boundaries, being considerate and conscientious of other peoples well-being and personal boundaries, treating others with respect in their differences ESPECIALLY when you don't agree with them.... these things are lessons children NEED TO LEARN.
People learn best through experience. So, don't hide away the troubles. Do they need to see people beat the crap out of each other? NO WAY
Do they need to see people berate each other, screaming and condemning and demeaning one another? NO WAY

Do they need to see adults face down difficult, painful, problematic situations in healthy, constructive ways? ABSOLUTELY.


**did we always do everything right? of course not! But-have the kids grown and matured and come through it with positive attitudes, healthy opinions about relationships (some mono, some undecided), good understanding of the importance of creating and maintaining personal boundaries... yes. **
I don't think poly is a necessary component for raising healthy, productive, happy kids. I also don't think monogamy is a necessary component.


Of all of the people I know; hmmmm how are we defining "know". Of the people I consider most meaningful in my life, my attitude about raising kids tends to be the norm.
HOWEVER-I observe people in poly and mono and single and divorced and player lifestyles raising kids with absolutely no attention to how their behavior is teaching their kids to be royal assholes. People who make excuses for why they "can't" behave appropriately to others for any number of reasons. Excuses for why they "can't" do the considerate, caring, compassionate thing or "can't" work with someone else for the best interests of a third party. Hell people who have excuses for why they can't actually parent their kids-but refuse to let anyone else do it.

MY conclusion is that most people shouldn't be parenting at all. They have no self-control, self-accountability, self-responsibility; without those things solidly in place, they have no business having children at all.
I don't think it's a poly/mono issue. I think it's a faulty assumption that parenting 'comes naturally'. It does not. Parenting requires a great deal of attention to detail and skill. It also requires a great deal of maturity beyond the self-centered "me, me, me" attitude that prevails currently.

 

[kdt26417]

For my own part, I have no idea whether good poly parenting is the exception or the rule. For that matter, I don't know whether good mono parenting is the exception or the rule, either. Though I admit, the OP of this thread doesn't propose to put monogamy on trial, it proposes to put polyamory on trial.

Re:

"I don't think it's a poly/mono issue. I think it's a faulty assumption that parenting 'comes naturally.' It does not."

Well said.

 

[Attarax]

ISAbour apparatus

Had to come back to the top and post a warning after typing the rest. This is ungodly long winded and I apologize in advance. Rambly and poorly written, but hopefully, even if you skim it, you'll see what I was trying to say.



So...*wow need to shake the head a bit* I read through most of the thread. (sorry the point and counterpoint discussion on the Dr.'s opinion piece was a bit much to really read it all, I just gleaned the info.)

I did want to add my small part since I am poly and do have children. Both are male, one is 13 and one is 12. I came out to them because the situation with the hubby and the bf was getting to a point where my kids would start noticing.

...funny enough, we didn't give them enough credit because they noticed long before we thought they would...more on that later.

To hash it out without over expanding, I guess you could say I was poly from when my kids were just starting school. I'm talking one in 2nd grade and one in 1st. The first poly relationship was very long distance, he lived on an opposite coast from the hubby and I, so visiting was a rare occurrence and he was considered "just a friend". That lasted for a little over a year and then circumstances and life happened.

I went away to visit my parents abroad with my children and stayed away for 2 months. The hubby thought it would be fine (my parents were the ones who wanted to see their grandkids, it wasn't a case of me wanting to run away or anything.) but then he realized he missed us, missed the noise, missed just family life in general and that the bachelor life of gaming, sleeping late, working, etc. just wasn't for him anymore. (yay! right? )

The 2nd time we had a 3rd in our life happened by accident. At this point I had already "fessed" up to my sister (she is 8 years younger than me) about what I've gotten myself into lately (Her reaction? "Well, you've always been the black sheep of the family...and of all of us are the happiest...soooo...gah, why are you so weird?!" Then she punched me in the shoulder as siblings do and laughed.)

Anyway she found our second 3rd online while I was chatting on a vidchat site. By this time, my kids were about 7 and 8 years old. That 3rd ended up moving to the same coast but a state away. Visitation was more often but still not a common occurrence. It was common enough, however, that my children did end up forming a connection to him and saw him as another adult to have company with.

That relationship lasted about 3-4 (or is it 4-5 years?...I can't really recall) and unfortunately for me ended badly. The hubby and that 3rd remained friends, but only because I had to honestly tell the hubby he could. My hubby has always put me first, as I do him, when in situations such as this. I had to put my hurt ragey feelings aside to analyze and deal with later and allow his friendship with our ex-3rd to continue...because really they became great friends.

The only negative effect it had on my kids was that they saw me really really f*cking depressed. I never took it out on them, and when they asked why I was sad I told them that I was hurt, that a really close friend hurt me and I'm dealing with it but not to worry. As sharp as they were/are they asked me if it was the ex-3rd. I said yes. They asked if they should be angry too. I said they didn't have to be but whatever they were feeling was what they were feeling. My eldest told me that he was mad because ex-3rd made me cry and made me sad, but as long as I got better, he wouldn't be too angry at ex-3rd. My youngest just spend more time with me giving me hugs...he wasn't as articulate in expressing himself verbally.

Now..at that time, after that I felt Poly wasn't for me. That I had made a mistake, that ... it was affecting my core family. And so I chose not to be anymore. I chose to just continue on with my life, with the caveat that if my hubby found new love then I would support him as much as he supported me (and god help him if he dissapoints in the bedroom because then I'd be embarassed. lol)

The hubby gf thing never happened, though we had a few mutual female friends who did get a shot at him. (and thankfully were satisfied). Other than that, he just felt as if putting forth the effort to "pull" was just something he wasn't in to, and had no time for (he is the major breadwinner of the family).

So now...our kids are 13 and 12...I/we came out to them at 12 and 11.

The one rule in the house is honesty and don't lie to me....only because my children have 100% of my trust, given freely, and not earned, but they have understood that if they ever do something and lie then they have chosen to intentionally lose that trust and the % decreases monumentally and they would have to give precise intellectual arguments for whatever it is that I then would need to "trust" them on. Harsh, yes, but so much more lenient than when I was growing up...which they know.

So...funnily enough, when I came out to the boys as poly...I first had to come out as bi. Coming out with my sexual orientation was never in the cards, but it's a part of me and I wanted to "test the waters" as it were with my children with this one issue before broaching the other...as well as see what type of children I had.

My eldest had this lightbulb flash over his head. "OH! So that's why (*close female friend*) was always hanging out with you and you guys would go dancing a lot." *blinks* "(*close female friend #2*) too?!" I just kind of nod and wait....then he looks up at me and goes "Niiiice." (Have I mentioned my eldest is kind of a dork?) Then I bring up why I had to come out to him...and said "Do you really want to know the next part? You don't have to, it's your choice, but realized I disclosed my orientation...so the next thing is bigger than that." I kept folding laundry and waited. My eldest shrugged and went "Sure. Why not right?" So I started with "Okay..so you know how (current bf name) is always hanging out and sleeping on the cou-..." "Oh that? Yeah I figured that out a while back." *picture me stunned and looking at him as he laughs at me*

"Uhm. how?" Apparently my son had in the morning come in at one point to use the bathroom (we have a 3 br 1 br house, the br is connected to the Mbr via sliding door)...and the sliding door was left open. He saw me sleeping in bed with who he assumed was his father spooning up behind me. (Normally bf slept on the couch but we had a raucous night out and got sloppy with sleeping arrangements) he did a doubletake when he realized that his father had already left for work. He saw it was (current bf) and apparently put 2 and 2 together at that moment and continued on with his day.

When I asked him why he didn't say anything before he replied "Because it was fun? Just kidding, because it didn't matter....aaand because if I asked you'd answer, but I figured I'd let you tell me when you were ready. That's how it works right?" .... other standing rule.... if my boys have a question we will answer to the best of our ability. Be it sexuality, politics, religion...we will attempt to give an answer that encompasses both sides of an argument and let them decide on their viewpoint.

I then asked my eldest if I should tell his younger brother. He nodded at me and told me that since he knew, if his brother didn't then his brother would feel left out and angry...besides, it would be fun. (*facepalm*)

So I called my youngest into the room...and looked at my eldest as I started with. "What do you think of gay people?" ... My youngest looked at me like I was a moron and said "Duh. They're People?" (in that honest yet condescending tone only children could muster.) my eldest at that point laughed out loud and my youngest snickered at me. After we all calmed down and I finished feeling my high of "my sons are neat", I told my youngest I was Bi....he gave me the same look...and told me that he thought friend #2 was cuter than friend #1. *facepalm again*

At that point I felt pretty good about confessing the other part of everything but I stalled and looked at my youngest, my eldest seeing my hesitation said "Hey, remember that thing we talked about?" *youngest gave him a quizzical look* "We were right, mama, papa, and bf are together." at that point my youngest went "Psh, is that all? I figured that out a while ago...anything else mama or can I go back to my game?"

....whew...so I could've summed that up faster, but I wanted to tell it the way it happened with the needed back story snippets.

 

[Attarax]

(continued from above)

My sons go to public school. They are not bullied. When they were younger, they were, but beyond one physical confrontation that my youngest had (he's actually the bigger of my two sons) nothing much else affects them. They are pretty mature for their ages though they are still kids..okay teen and pre-teen, and really don't care much for their own age group or the drama that happens in school. My eldest is into choir and acting, my youngest is into choir and football. They are both gamers be it tabletop, console, or computer.

The view our current bf as a "man child" (their definition not mine, though I snorted coffee out my nose when they told me this) and my youngest has said that he feels comfortable speaking to my bf first before speaking to the parental units...basically running ideas/questions by an impartial adult before speaking to the parents. My eldest views the bf as a nice guy and a personal chauffeur...and both my kids view the bf as family.

The bf has moved in with us, he and the hubby bought a king sized bed for the mbr (it's for our dog mostly...big thing thinks he's a lap dog *sigh*), and life goes on as normal.

Am I worried about being "outed" to strangers and extended family someday? Eh..some days yes, some days no. My mother an father in law ask about the bf when he doesn't show up. My mother in law met the ex-3rd before and she commented that "It's like you have a second husband!" when he had to stand in for the hubby during a family outing. (Hubby couldn't get the day off work.)

The bf has spent holidays with my inlaws. My sister and youngest brother know, my friends and ex co-workers know, one of my cousins is also in the know because she asked me about her situation...other than that people who honestly ask...pointedly, not hemming around the bush digging mind you, I will tell. We don't advertise but we don't hide. We also don't engage in overt displays of affection. We are well past the honeymoon stage.

I'm sorry if I got off track with this reply...but I just wanted to add my experience to this....and even though it sounds all good...and it is, really, there is still all the inner me issues I'm dealing with that I hope will find some resolution because of this forum and the people in it.

 

[kdt26417]

Thank you for those posts Attarax, that story is wonderful and it gives me a sense of encouragement. Whatever you need to work through, we, as a forum, will try to help.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[kdt26417]

Just now caught sight of a post relating to this thread:

• JessicaBurde on non-monogamous families

My only cavil is that the individual studies don't have web links to them; I guess they're accessed via an old-fashioned library?