Level of involvement VS resources

S

SuddenlyStoneElf

New member
Hi everyone!

I don't know if this has been asked before (probably) in this specific way... I'd like to know your opinions and experience of how you have found the impact of

- Time (as in, only 7 days a week with 24 hours a day and so much to do)
- Energy (the amount of attention that can be invested in everything)

... on your poly relationships.


I am seriously curious about this due to my current/future situation with *deep breath* soon-to-be-ex-husband-hopefully-friend.

The reason I'm asking is because I need a lot of physical proximity, intimacy and sharing with people, briefly put because I've been starved of this for my entire life due to a screwed up childhood and its consequences. I've always thought that the quality and intimacy of *any* relationship depends on how much time and effort you invest... so I take my relationships very seriously and I put a lot of time and effort into them. I can't deal with shallow people (or superficial relationships).


Now, my relationship (mono) with my husband is changing; we're divorcing and want to stay friends. He's younger than I and this was his first really serious relationship, so he didn't know that much about himself and learned about his own hopes and dreams along the way. We still love each other, but have realized we cannot make each other happy as each other's "primary partner". I use that label because he says he wants a family with a couple children (we disagree on children so that's one of the dealbreakers), which I hope he'll put first... plus the ability to pursue female friends when interest strikes on both ends... plus a full-time job of course, and finally his serious hobby, which currently takes up his entire evenings.

To me, this sounds like everything would have to be fairly superficial if it's to work, because of the time + energy factor. And the fact that he wants kids someday hopefully means he'll concentrate most of his time + energy on the wife and kids, right!?

I am not OK with the setup he envisions above; I see a host of potential problems which he dismisses out of hand, saying he has to "go for his dream". It looks very unrealistic.

That overall quest for "more" on his end is the main reason why we're divorcing (there are others). We do love each other still and want to stay friends but.... how much room can there be for a deep friendship here?

Am I being stupid in thinking he'll even be remotely interested in keeping contact? Or he'll drop off the map because he just didn't know? Or...

Am I completely thinking this out wrong, and this is actually what all of you guys are doing?
If so... how? What do you end up sacrificing... the hobbies? Time with one or more partners? Time with the children? No additional relationships?.... Nothing (???)

It sounds to me like he thinks he's Superman, I can't see that happening without serious hurt. I wish him the best, but I don't even know if we'll really stay friends with that much going on in his life...! Keeping in mind I don't care for superficial friendships where people contact each other about the weather max. 1-2 a year and don't know what's going on in each other's lives most of the time.

For me, if I get involved in a poly relationship, I'll be looking for people who want a deep level of intimacy and sharing--something I see as stable and long-term. I feel I would have no problem with my partner(s) being involved with other people as long as everyone is getting what they need. Meaning... probably a lot of time and energy spent on all of us together, changing with our needs and ability. But the focus would still be on all of us together.

It seems everyone on the Net is basically saying "More is better! More friends, more hobbies, more money, more fun, more XYZ!"...
But they never take energy or time into account. To me he looks trapped in there with the crowd.
To me... fewer is better, yet I understand that sometimes that means more than one. In my case it probably does because heck, I need a lot of love.


I also need some perspective :)

So... how do all of you balance out your time, energy and various needs?

Please help shed light on this! Thanks :)
 
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I work mon and tue ovn (sleeping shifts) I also work thur evening and Friday day shift. I also take 16 credits mon-thur.

I spend wed and sat night with sam.

I spend thur, Fri , and Sunday with nate.

Currently I dont bring the kids to Sam's due to him only having a one bedroom but ill start taking them once a week when he moves in nov.

I always maintain my 2 nights with sam no matter what happens even if I rearranged nights. I also sometimes make plans with him other days.

I enjoy being busy so none of this is an issue for me
 
Hi Inyourendo, thanks for the reply!

It looks like you have crazy amounts of energy, not sure I could pull your schedule off :)
It doesn't sound like anything in your life is draining you at all. ??

If you don't mind my asking... When you meet your partners, is it more quiet time or adventure, or it's balanced? Where do you get your energy from... your partners? Your kids? Just the fact of keeping busy?

Are both your partners helping with the children?
 
SuddenlyStoneElf, you're a mono wife, of a husband who wants to be poly, right? But you're divorcing in part over this...but he expects to continue seeing you as a deep friendship? As friends with benefits?

My feeling is that it's beside the point how much energy the poly partner has. There are still only 24 hours in a day, still only 7 days in a week. That means even with only two partners, even dividing evenly, each of those partners is still accepting a relationship of only 3-1/2 days per week. Apparently to some people that is acceptable.

To me as the outside, secondary relationship, it was, because I'm deeply involved in my work, like being home with my children, and wasn't looking for a relationship in the wake of divorce, anyway. I broke up with him for other reasons. But for many people, this just isn't acceptable regardless of whether the poly partner can maintain the energy to jump between the two.

As to kids, I've seen plenty of examples where it is time with kids that is sacrificed. Obviously when going from a mono marriage to a poly marriage, time with spouse is going to be cut down to make time for the new partner.
 
Hi SuddenlyStoneElf,

I am in a closed/poly-fi MFM V. No kids. (A dog and a cat.) It's about as simple and straightforward as poly can get. But, Snowbunny (the lady hinge) has to divide her time between two men. The upshot is that each of the men has to spend more time by himself. In our case, that seems to work out alright. I personally am a meatspace introvert and crave the extra time to myself. Other people would feel differently.

It does sound like your soon-to-be-ex is going to bite off more than he can chew. But, it's his life, his decision. He'll have to be responsible for the consequences. You're probably right that you won't be able to maintain much of a relationship with him, unless he really shorts his (future) wife and kids. But, we'll see. Sometimes people get really creative and find ways to make the impossible work.

It is generally agreed that polyamorists have a "saturation point:" a maximum number of partners that can realistically be maintained. From what I've seen, two partners is usually the max. Maybe three, though that kind of thing can generate some very stormy weather. More than three partners can be done and I've seen it work, but it certainly involves an understanding that each partner is only going to get a thin slice of any one partner's available time. There's various ways this can work, including various partners being connected with various other partners so everyone gets a larger time allotment overall, it is just supplied by quite a few people taking (short) turns.

Humans are very diverse and what works for one person doesn't work for someone else. The stakes are much higher, of course, when kids are involved. Somehow the adults must make certain that the kids' needs (such as for time and attention) are being met.
 
SSE, how much time/contact do you need to maintain a close relationship with someone? Not necessarily a partner or romantic relationship, just a close friendship. Does that time need to be in a particular form- talking, another activity, just hanging out? Do all the people you count as true friends always manage to meet that minimum, or are there phases when people get busy and can't be as available as they or you might like? What happens to the relationship then?

I ask all this because I have also felt at times, "how can we have a "real" relationship if we only have x hr together?". But then I would realize that I didn't have nearly such high expectations for friendships that I value, that are "real" and deep and intimate relationships. I recently saw a friend who I hadnt managed to see for prob a few months, and she is still a dear friend who I trust with anything. The rest of life just gets in our way sometimes.

I have a boyfriend whom I can't see as much of as I would like. I get about 4 hr a week with him. I admit - I would like more, both in person time and also other communication, and sometimes i find it difficult that I can't have it. But in that time we have, we connect, we share what is happening in our lives, we have fun together. we each feel valued; we each feel that the other wants to be there. I wonder if you approached your time with your soon- to- be-ex with that attitude in mind if it might feel a bit different.

I don't mean to discount your worries: your ex does sound like he could have a lot of interests competing for his time, and I have no idea whether he will be good at demonstrating that he values you and wants to spend time with you or what his priorities will be. But I do think it's possible for people to lead busy lives with multiple interests and still maintain meaningful relationships.
 
SuddenlyStoneElf said:
Hi Inyourendo, thanks for the reply!

It looks like you have crazy amounts of energy, not sure I could pull your schedule off :)
It doesn't sound like anything in your life is draining you at all. ??

If you don't mind my asking... When you meet your partners, is it more quiet time or adventure, or it's balanced? Where do you get your energy from..nights in. your partners? Your kids? Just the fact of keeping busy?

Are both your partners helping with the children?
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Im not sure where it comes from, just how ive always been. Im the type who is refreshed after 6 hours of sleep. I like to play a lot and keep busy out of the house in general. We do things like amusement parks, water parks, multiple trips per year etc. Nate is a stay at home dad so that us helpful and sam does help me when my children are included on our activies. I do enjoy nights in with wine and Netflix occasionally. it also helps that my oldest is a very responsible 16 year old.
 
Unfortunately, many men leave it to the woman to manage the relationship and home life so they can pursue career and hobbies. I know this seems very sexist of me to say that, but it's still very common, and usually guys like that tend to think that just being in the relationship is enough, without making adequate efforts to nurture it.
 
I have two male partners. Both work full time. I'm in school. We have children, two left at home (three out of the house)-I home school them each of the guys puts in part time work helping with homework.
We all live together (generally). So I get to see them both every single day. One "date night" a week with each. They work opposite schedules most of the year, which makes "personal time" convenient.
I have several close friends who I see on a regular basis as well. Usually for lunches between classes or for walks/hiking/kayaking. Things I enjoy that the guys don't have an interest in. I often take the kids with me because they enjoy these activities. I also often take the grandkids along. I keep the grandkids over night at least one night a week most weeks. This summer I took the 3 year old grandson with me for a two week trip out of town to see one of my male partners who is working out of town (his "papa").

I am anal retentive about depth in relationships and I don't do superficial. The friends I socialize with regularly, have been friends of mine for over 20 years. My bf and I have been together 21 years. My dh and I have been together 16 years. The kids are 23, 18, 17, 14, 7. The grand kids are 3, 1, and one on the way. Plus we have an "extra" 23 yo and her 1 yo living in our home currently renting a room AND my baby sister who will be 21 in a month has been in/out of the house and may be back again in a few months because our parents are moving out of state.

How? How is by friends and partners being understanding that they aren't the ONLY priority and MOST of our time is SHARED. Sex is alone. Date nights are USUALLY alone. But everything else is shared time.
 
I don't have superficial friendships - I call those acquaintances. That said, time isn't always a factor in maintaining the level of intimacy. I have one friend whom I have known since we wer six (we are currently 50). She lives in another state, and we really only communicate a few times a year and see each other less frequently. However, every phone call or visit, no matter how long it's been, is like we saw each other yesterday. I trust her implicitly.

What do we provide one another? Understanding. And I don't need to talk to her everyday to know that if I call her with news or an issue, she will listen, sympathize, and give me her honest opinion.

While some relationships - especially one between romantic partners - can require more time, not all do.
 
I am a stay at home mom of three kids. My oldest daughter lives in another state, but my 25 year old son lives in my basement and has special needs. My youngest is almost 17 and I homeschool her. I am poly, and Both my primary partners live with me.

I am extroverted. I don't like being alone for extended periods and I need a LOT of physical touch and face time to stay connected.

Both my guys are introverted, but to different degrees. Everyone works during the day - my husband works in a home office in the basement, I homeschool and teach science courses in my game room to high school students and my boyfriend does contracting work outside of the home. We come together for dinner and I alternate overnights with each of my guys. On the night that isn't a sleepover, I spend the after dinner time with the other guy on an individual date. OR, two times a week we have a shared 3-person date out to play trivia OR to a movie or event. We are flexible with the overnights though - depending on schedules, it might make more sense for one of them to swap out.

Like, tonight I was supposed to have a sleepover with my husband, but my boyfriend and I are celebrating our 6 month mark, so he is here in my bedroom.
And, tonight the 3 of us spent 4 hours after dinner playing a board game. Oh well. :)

If I was to decide to date a 3rd guy, I'd have to squeeze time in during the day, so that would mostly affect my daughter. That said, our schedule is as such that she does school in the morning til noon and then she does her own thing all afternoon, which may or may not involve me. So I could theoretically use those hours for dating. I am not sure how overnights would work - we would have to change things, for sure.

My guys like our nighttime schedule because they are guaranteed some down time every night. If they have a sleepover, then that evening they are free to pursue their hobbies. If they don't have a sleepover, then they are usually free after 9 pm. My boyfriend is a super late night owl, so he paints all night, those nights!
 
Thanks for all the replies, for going into detail about your arrangements as well. Sorry for replying late, I was not in a position to reply without thinking about all of this for a couple weeks.

By your examples, I'm pretty sure now that part of the issue I'm facing with hubby is how much time and energy he wants to spend with *anyone* including me, compared to how much I need and want to spend with my partner specifically.

It sounds like time and energy are a factor that influences who you can be with everywhere, in polyamory as well as monogamy. Put 2 people who have such differing needs and wants together, and they won't be happy either, regardless of the type of relationship. I guess this has got to be fairly obvious to all of you.... I didn't get much chance to learn it before now. :(

I don't know how I could be in a poly relationship unless everyone was fairly seriously involved with each other and wanted to spend a lot of time together, as a group. Ergo I'll be looking for people who are wanting the same as it's a very important relationship element for me.

Yet... I'm stuck feeling that this is limiting!

I'm conflicted, isn't being poly about giving love all the possible chances, accepting relationships as they come (in the form they come) and not putting boundaries on what others can or want to achieve?

I am not sure how I can cherish the love hubby and I still have, because we'd basically be having a relationship he'd be happy with (LDR, not seeing each other physically more than 4-5 times a year) when I already know from our previous experience in a LDR that I can't emotionally weather that type of interaction anymore. I need too much from the people I'm close to.

Suddenly I feel defective, like there's this whole vista opening up and here I am putting walls around it.


Has anyone pondered much about what makes their limits, actual limits?

Maybe I'm trying too hard here.... Really not sure.


Again thanks for your time and replies...
 
Has anyone pondered much about what makes their limits, actual limits?
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For sure. LDRs don't work for me at all. I need proximity and time dedicated to me. My limit is twice a week dates, and one overnight minimum. Why is this a limit and how do I know? Because when I am not getting that, I'm stressed, panicked and out of sorts. It's absolutely a measurable thing with me. I can deal with downtime, but I physically start to crave togetherness after a couple days, and then that turns to the thought that I need to find another partner, as if the other has abandoned me. Being separated from a partner for a week, it feels as if we are strangers. My husband going on business trips has been an issue for us in the past.

A few people on this site have told me that I would be a terrible person for them to date for this reason. *shrugs* That's okay. I am completely upfront about this need of mine right from the beginning - if the guy can't agree to it, then we are done discussing us being together. My ex boyfriend was enthusiastically ok with my time request but then could never live up to it. I brought it up again and again, and he said he could meet my needs, but he couldn't. We eventually broke up. Other issues were to be had, but this one was the biggest in my opinion.

Call me clingy, but dammit, I let guys know it right off. I have separation anxiety and a super high libido. It's only an issue if he can't keep up.
 
SuddenlyStoneElf said:
Suddenly I feel defective, like there's this whole vista opening up and here I am putting walls around it.

Has anyone pondered much about what makes their limits, actual limits?
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You're not defective; there are many, many ways to practice polyamory. The only commonality is the ability and/or desire to have multiple loving relationships in one's life. How anyone manages achieving that is based on their own unique personalities, logistics, schedules, libido, whatever. Plus, it is healthy to have boundaries.

You may want to read the book The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman. The author has classified five different ways people prefer to express their love and have love expressed to them. The categories are Physical Touch, Quality Time, Acts of Service, Receiving Gifts, and Words of Affirmation. If a couple has differing preferences for how they give and receive love and loving attention, each can make adjustments to help satisfy their partner's needs, or perhaps they feel it is best to each go their own way. You and your hubs are probably very different from each other in terms of how you need love and affection expressed to you.

You can take the test at http://www.5lovelanguages.com/profile/.

Now, the last time I took the quiz, my two top Love Languages were 37% Physical Touch and 30% Quality Time, yet I am also very much an Introvert who needs lots of alone time to recover from my interactions with others (and I do mean "recover!"). So, while I must have touch and quality time spent together, to me, that has nothing to do with frequency or quantity of time, necessarily. Sure, it's great if I can spend a lot of time with someone whose company I really enjoy, but after a while I need them to go home and leave me alone, lol. So, for me, I say "give me plenty of space" and I don't mind having even weeks apart - but when we're together, I want to spend my time with someone who is fully engaged and present with me. In other words, we better be connecting! And yet, LDRs are frustrating to me, because I like to be spontaneous and they seem to need a lot more planning. So, it's all up to individual interpretation of one's needs and preferences.

There is also an interesting thread here about Myers-Briggs which includes some bits about the Five Love Languages: http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=62081.
 
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Re (from SuddenlyStoneElf):
"Has anyone pondered much about what makes their limits, actual limits?"
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I find that I have less of what I'd call limits and more of what I'd call wants and needs. If I have what I want and need, I don't usually worry too much about the mechanics of how it works.
 
To me? It sounds like your stbx husband is naive and operating under a delusion of ideals and principles that may not work in reality.

The fantasy of being poly vs the reality of how it really works for you is something most of us have had to deal with in our poly journeys, I reckon.

If your stbx thinks he can maintain 2 or more sexual romantic relationships with women, hold down a full time job, be a GOOD, involved dad, AND devote hours to a consuming hobby every night, um, good luck with that! Will he never take kids to soccer? Help with homework? Be up in the night with a teething baby or sick child? Give baths, read stories, run out to the store for medicine or milk or diapers at 10PM, etc., etc.?

Now, if he just wants to breed up a few kids and let his wife do all the work, if he wants to be out gallivanting, having sex, shenanigans with his single gf while wifey does all the childcare, he's either a selfish uncaring bastard, or incredibly naive about how much work kids are.

But that is just my take. I am a fiercely loyal person, who believes in commitment, and depth, and intimacy. I think too many poly people can become shallow and constantly distracted by the new and shiny, the NRE rush. Bleh. Hate that. It wears me out. I like having 2 partners. More than 2 and I end up feeling like I am neglecting somebody and feelings are getting hurt (and my kids are grown and I only work part time!).

I lost respect for my newly ex bf because he seemed greedy, having a wife, and an intense relationship with me, AND my gf as a FWB, and still wanting more and more partners on top of the 3 of us! He seemed like a fool after a while, and even admitted to "being in over his head." But despite my complaints of dissatisfaction, and his own confusion, he was driven to seek, and try to shag, others... and so, he lost me. I dumped him.
 
I (like Kev) prefer to look at it from a needs/wants perspectives.

I have needs/wants/preferences for different type of relationships. I can carry on friendships and aquaintanceships with people to varying degrees and have lots of distance.
But romance, I prefer to have daily contact. If I can't, I simply don't carry on a romance.
Is it limiting? I suppose so. But if it meets MY needs and MY preferences-then the limits are right for me.

One suggestion I do have is stop comparing.
What works for him doesn't have to be what works for you or vice versa.

My husband is a "meet someone and a few hours later fuck to see if it works or not" then if it goes well he will try to get to know them and build a relationship. That is so assbackwards to me it's not remotely conceivable. So, I don't do that. I don't see this as "limiting" myself, I see this as being true to my own needs/wants/preferences.
We are different people.

He could fuck 100 women-and none of them end up being more than a one or two week stand. I may only hook up once in a 10 year period with someone, but it lasts the next 10 years.
We're both handling things from our own place of comfort.
 
nycindie said:
You may want to read the book The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman. The author has classified five different ways people prefer to express their love and have love expressed to them. The categories are Physical Touch, Quality Time, Acts of Service, Receiving Gifts, and Words of Affirmation. If a couple has differing preferences for how they give and receive love and loving attention, each can make adjustments to help satisfy their partner's needs, or perhaps they feel it is best to each go their own way. You and your hubs are probably very different from each other in terms of how you need love and affection expressed to you.
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It's extremely funny (?) strange(?) and à propos that you'd mention the 5 love languages.

We have taken the test a few times. When we first got together, we had some appreciable differences, his top was Physical Affection, Words of Appreciation, then Acts of Service (he *loves* when I cook for him! :), Gifts and Quality Time being the last.

I saw a major problem right off the bat because Quality Time is my primary love language, while Physical Affection was the least important to me back then. The question of "Why would you even get married?!?" begs an answer at this point: Because I knew and felt that we really DID love each other that much despite the differences (which did not scare me one bit back then). So I gave it my best shot.

Over the 3 years of our marriage, he's learned a lot on how to express Quality Time to me, and I have in turn become much more Physical, to the point where I consider sex a make-or-break element of a relationship (after being with guys who basically had no skill or interest in pleasing a woman, which I did not realize due to self-esteem issues).


We took the test again 3 weeks ago.

Our love languages are now:
Him: Physical Affection 8, Quality Time 7, Words of Appreciation 5
Me: Quality Time 8, Physical Affection 7, Words of Appreciation 6


You'd think (I would think!) that would mean we generally look for the same things, and are reasonably on the same page about where we want to go, right? Yet here we are, getting divorced.

I guess our priorities are different, since to him it's acceptable to have an LDR...??
I'm really confused by that. I scheduled a Big Talk with him for this Sunday, so I guess I'll know more then...
 
I'm conflicted, isn't being poly about giving love all the possible chances, accepting relationships as they come (in the form they come) and not putting boundaries on what others can or want to achieve?
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Not to me. Just cuz some wacky comes along professing to love me, and I identify as poly I have to say YES and be open and accepting of having a relationship with them? No way! :eek:

Just because one feels something doesn't mean one has to pursue it at this time or ever. Sometimes one declines because of limited resources like time. Willing, but not actually able. Sometimes it is the flip -- one is able to pursue, but not actually willing.

There's a polysaturation point for all even if all don't have the same number.

What open model resonates for one person could also be different for another. Or even different models for the same person but at different ages or stages of life.

One has to be discerning and realistic for what they can and cannot do. Boundaries are not for other people. They are for YOU. You put them in place and you honor them so YOU can be healthy.

I don't know how I could be in a poly relationship unless everyone was fairly seriously involved with each other and wanted to spend a lot of time together, as a group. Ergo I'll be looking for people who are wanting the same as it's a very important relationship element for me.

Yet... I'm stuck feeling that this is limiting!
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Does not compute to me.

You know you are happiest with X, but you feel it is limiting to seek what actually makes you happy? How is this bad? To me that is like "I limit me to the things that are most likely to make me happiest so I hopefully don't have to deal in too much sorrow in life!" Isn't that a good thing? :confused:

I am going to guess. And I could be totally wrong. Tell me if I am, ok?

I think you could want to believe polyshipping is this "all accepting love flow thing" so that you can believe you will have a close, tight relationship in his life as his ex.

I think you could be wanting and WILLING to be friends with your STBX but still coming to terms with the fact that it has to be a shared want to happen.

I think you could be digesting that you might not be ABLE to achieve that want for these reasons:

1) You don't like casual once or twice a year type friendships, you prefer something closer, more often.

2) He's not likely to provide it. He has time intensive plans for himself.​

So the odds are that you will drift apart. So to me it seems like you are struggling to come to terms with that. I could be wrong, but that's how it looks to me. Are you?
If so? That's ok. It's part of the divorce healing process to have to deal with some sadness, loss, grief, etc before reaching final acceptance.

It will be what it will be as exes. Let it be. Maybe you guys are fine as exes in the end -- but resist the temptation to predict the future NOW. Be in the present now.

Hang in there!:eek:

Galagirl
 
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I'm conflicted, isn't being poly about giving love all the possible chances, accepting relationships as they come (in the form they come) and not putting boundaries on what others can or want to achieve?
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Nope-not to me.

TO ME
Poly is about, I love more than one person. End of subject.
I absolutely don't give possible chances to every possible love. I don't give love to every possible opportunity. I do accept my relationships as they come (and go).
But I also have boundaries on what I accept in my life and don't accept in my life.

That doesn't mean others can't be different. They can. One of my dear friends is into activities and relationship types I am not. That's cool. It's his life. But he's not my lover, because I don't share those interests. Doesn't matter if I love him (and have) for over 20 years. Doesn't matter if I find him sexy as hell. Our lives styles are NOT compatible as more than friends, thus we remain friends.
(LOL-laughing because as I was writing the last paragraph there were MULTIPLE names I could fit into the "him")

The reality is that many opportunities don't coincide with my long term goals and plans. So-I don't take them.

I had an opportunity to take a full scholarship to West Point. But I had to give my daughter up for adoption or get married to take it. I choose to keep my daughter, NOT get married and NOT go to West Point-with NO regrets.

Likewise; there are people who have entered my life who were sexy and fun and loving. But for one reason or another our paths weren't coinciding well. So we didn't become or remain coupled.

Just because someone meets my sexual interest criteria, or my love criteria, or my friend criteria, or my friendship criteria, or my coparent criteria, or my employee criteria etc-doesn't mean that they are going to meet enough of those criteria to warrant us "hooking up".
 
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