Dazed and Confused: Life of Maca

[maca]

I just got a chance to catch up on the posts on this thread. I believe GG and I will have to have a talk tonight. I'm not going to get into defending myself on the board or pointing out incorrect statements.

I'll leave it up to GG to think on what he has posted as to what/why/how I do things in my life, or with my feelings and heart.

 

[LovingRadiance]

You know, I think it's a good idea for you two talk. But I think it's a shitty idea to not respond and correspond in regards to the rest of the topic.

As Mono said, and I repeated, you two need lay it out on the line and move forward. You don't need to defend yourself, but you've seen yourself how much it can help if both people lay out the facts as they see them on one thread, and let everyone else put in some other perspectives, it helps both people to see the bigger picture.

IF you choose not to talk, then the responses are going to all end up one-sided because they only have one side to help. And that isn't yours.
Just like we talked about on our walk, if you want help finding answers-you have to share the problem.

 

[maca]

In due time.

 

[maca]

I have attempted numerous times to really try and be friends with Maca. There are a few reasons it fails. One is that I don't "chase him down". I'm not an aggressive person, LR can attest to that. I show myself or my intentions or desires, even needs, and if no one ( or said person) responds to it, I drop it.

I've done what I can to show Maca that I want a closer relationship with him. I'm sure could do more, and will keep trying. But it's obvious to me that he doesn't WANT it. And I don't want to "force" myself on him to be friends. I wouldn't want that either if it were the other way around.

I'm sure we both would admit that the only time that an attempt is made to be "friends" is when LR has a shit fit about the fact that we are not friends. I haven't allowed myself to trust your intentions. I've known from the time of the affair that you want to be "with LR" enough that you were willing to risk breaking up our marriage. So when you extend an invitation to be friends, and it happens when LR is throwing a fit about us not being friends, is it really you wanting to be friends or our you just trying to keep her happy?

We have just spent the last few months dealing with the fact that you don't do anything for yourself. You do it because someone else wants you to do it. So why would I believe that you want to be friends? You don't make it easy to believe that it is "you" that's wants a friendship. At least I have the balls to say that I'm not sure that I want a deep friendship with you. I don't even know who you are. YOU don't even know who you are.

I'm the only one in their entire marriage that supported them staying together and working through all the problems and issues.

This is very true. He knows and knew then that LR wouldn't leave me for him.

But I don't trust him. I don't trust him to have the family as a whole's best interest in mind. I don't trust him when he says he wants to do things that involve me, either with the kids or the family, or the three of us. His attitude says differently.

I'm a protector. I don't trust those that don't protect LR or my kids from their friends or family.

 

[MonoVCPHG]

Hopefully both you and GG will be here in the summer Maca. Bonfires and beer have a way of bonding people. If all else fails, I'm seriously gonna get Redpepper to go Mistress on both your asses.

Just to clarify, that's "non-sexual Mistress." All the pain, but none of the drain, if you get my meaning.

 

[maca]

And when I open up to him, he might listen, but it stops there. He's a very caring person and will give you the shirt off his back. But 99% of the time, he's doing it for himself. He's doing it because doing it will get him something he wants later.

Seriously? I was caring enough for LR and my family and for your feelings when I said I would stay and work on understanding polyamory, why/how LR can love more then one. So I could get what? Laid? Money? Security? What did I get? I can get laid. I make enough money. I'm less secure being in a new dynamic (that I swore I would never be in). I knew the night I said I would try that you were not going to leave. So what the hell was I trying to get out of the biggest and hardest decision I have ever made?

I suppose I have only myself to blame, because I did hurt him. I did bold-face lie to him. I did break any amount of trust there may have been. But I also believe that somewhere deep down, he really does want this to work. We've had some moments that were... pretty deep moments, heartfelt. I'm talking about the real stuff. So I know it's there in him. That's the real him. But he doesn't want me to hurt him again, so he refuses to let it out continuously with me.

It's very hard for me to believe in you GG.

I want so bad to give him the benefit of the doubt, but honestly, I don't think he even knows what he really wants, or else he just won't admit it to himself. And I can't break through that.

I know what I want. GG. My issue is not in knowing what I want, but in knowing how to get it. I still have to build a trust in you. I still have insecurities and jealousy that I have to deal with. I have asked you several times in the last month what it is you want in this dynamic, what it is that you see as the goal, what your needs are. Have you given me anything to work with?

Will we ever be best friends? Maybe, but not likely.

Agreed.

Will we ever be able to trust each other? I think so, as long as we both decide to stop letting fear control us.

Again, I agree.

Can we function as a whole unit? Yes, I believe so, but not unless it's what we each want. I want it, LR wants it, Maca does not (or refuses to admit to himself that he does).

GG, if I didn't want us to function as a unit, why would I promote movie cuddle time? Why would I buy a ring and a card for LR and then offer you a chance to put your name on it and give it to her with me for V-Day? Why would I stand up to the nurse at the hospital when she wasn't going to let you go back to see LR with me after her surgery? Why would I offer going to your sibling's house (who hate LR) with you to back you up? Those things may mean nothing to you, but they are major to me.

I've never known Maca to be a quitter, but I really hope he can see what is best for himself. Whatever it is. I'm tired of watching him hurt. I'm tired of watching LR hurt. I'm tired of hurting myself too.

Quitting is not an option for me. Never will be. If we can all take care of and protect each other, then we have a chance of promoting each other to be the best people that we can be.

 

[maca]

Hopefully, both you and GG will be here in the summer, Maca. Bonfires and beer have a way of bonding people. If all else fails I'm seriously gonna get Redpepper to go Mistress on both your asses.

Just to clarify, that's "non-sexual Mistress." All the pain, but none of the drain, if you get my meaning.

We will be there, both of us, even if I have to beat his ass and pack him in my suitcase.

I'm good at my type of domming, but I don't think I want to cross paddles with RP! Well, maybe once. I'll even let her go first.

 

[MonoVCPHG]

We will be there, both of us, even if I have to beat his ass and pack him in my suit case.

I'm good at my type of domming, but I don't think I want to cross paddles with RP! Well, maybe once. I'll even let her go first

Woohoo! Can't wait, my friend.

Thanks for opening up on here. It's not a requirement, but other people will learn from all of your input, so it is much appreciated.

Time to watch a movie. Take care.

 

[maca]

Our friend E is now helping me hold her up, but I now realize my reserves are empty. I have no one filling those reserves except me. Us guy's guys tend to put ourselves in that position (call it a weakness if you want) But we could use a little propping up too.

I completely put myself into "healing LR." I didn't take any breaks. I didn't miss an appointment. I didn't put myself ahead of her. I didn't do it alone. I had people that helped, but the one guy that mattered the most (besides myself) was there part time.

I know it's been years, but you broke two trusts. (I don't know if you guys knew each other beforehand so it could be more trusts). You forced him to mistrust his relationship with his wife, and you broke any trust he had with you. I say those, worded specifically like that. That may never actually heal. Some people, and some situations, respect and trust can never completely be earned again.

I have only ever been able to do it with LR and my father. I haven't managed to do it with my mother.

I know that goes against all the mantra of the poly people and love, but its just plain true. There may always be something he is holding back, protecting for himself, just in case he needs to be there to hold himself up and hold LR up when you aren't there or you break that trust. I am not justifying it by the way...just giving my perspective on everything I have seen written.

As I was responding to this quote I realised I was keep account of all the times that GG let LR or I down. What I wasn't doing was taking into account all the times he was there for her when I wasn't. So I deleted my first response and wrote this instead. I do hold back a "reserve." It has been necessary as of late. But that is not an excuse. Your post has given me food for thought. I'll give this some time to sink in.

I wonder if he is protecting this peace from more than just with you, protecting that piece from everyone except LR. Giving 100% of oneself is tough, I have done it with 2 people in my life. My entire existence. My wife, and unfortunately E. I am absolutely terrified to let E hurt me with what she has possession of. All I mean by this, you might be taking his withdrawal too directly, personally.

Bingo! I'm not a "open book." I don't let many people in, past acquaintance. I'm learning to be more open to people, but I slam the door shut fast if they hurt me, LR or my kids.

 

[LovingRadiance]

Yes, I'm a guy's guy. He is not. I'm a take charge guy. He is a wait and see guy. I'm a protector. He is the one that gets protected. We are very different.

This is true. You are a take charge, protective guy's guy. GG is a wait and see guy, that all the girls are comfortable hanging out with and confiding in. And we do all tend to be protective of him, because he's really really good at being our FRIEND.

BUT

You are both interested in the same types of music

enjoy the same types of movies

like to drink the same types of beer

hang out around the campfire

play a game of pool (you tend towards being more competitive, but you both enjoy the break)

dancing (not together, obviously haha)

you are both fiercely devoted to the love of your life (me) though you show it different ways

you both are fiercely devoted to your children (again, you show it different ways)

you both feel that it's your job to provide for the family

you both are emotional men who don't see any weakness in giving another man you care deeply for a hug and even a kiss on the cheek

you both have a great respect for the same people

you both believe in God

you both feel unsure of yourselves often

you both doubt your worthiness in relationships often

you both are distrustful of others with your own self

you both have ONE other person besides me that you truly trust with yourself (you trust your father, GG trusts his other best friend)

you both get along famously with my sister, finishing sentences and laughing and loving her with abandon

you both are held back by fear of the unknown

you both are held back by fear of failure

you both are struggling to improve not-so-great communication skills

you both are trying to find the answer to this problem, and then giving up over and over again, because you are afraid the other one isn't trying

you both love me

I love both of you

our kids love both of you

and you are both breaking my heart, and the kids' hearts, because you keep panicking and running from this family, instead of grasping hold with both hands and holding on for dear life when the panic hits

which is something YOU taught me, Maca.

I have to admit that I do feel a competitive streak in regards to LR's attention. For 10 1/2 years I thought I had her full attention and in the last 7 months I have had to learn how to share it.

You have made admirable strides in this. Just remember, just because you thought you had my full attention and you thought it was your right, doesn't mean it was. It was never fair for ALL of my attention to be on you and even when you chose to pretend it was, it wasn't anyway. Even in a mono relationship each partner's attention isn't always on each other. We have 4 children together, and I have Z as well. Then there is my little sister, Em, and GG. There are others who have earned the right to my attention.

Also, they have earned the right for your attention, and you have earned the right to their attention. If you just open your heart, like you did with Blaidwyn's wife (can't remember her login to save my life) you will find that there is plenty of attention for us all to share, and keep ourselves so busy you'll never have to feel as though you are missing out! xo

The biggest thing holding me back is fear.

Always has been. Generally speaking, that's true for most people, I would guess. But that doesn't mean you have to let it win.

LR and he hurt me more than anyone else ever has (with the affair). I loved LR then, and I love her now, so I have forgiven her and let her back in close to my heart (knowing full well that she could hurt me again). I did not and do not "love" GG, so letting him in close to my heart by forming a friendship more then just "buddies" scares the shit out of me. I'm a protector. I even protect myself.

Love isn't the major difference. Even if you don't love someone, you can choose to forgive them. But you always have to choose to, even if you do love someone. Fear is what is holding you back. Fear of what people will think of you. Fear that you will look weak, like less of a man.

IF we are ever going to really set sail in this beautiful boat (to borrow from Kat's analogy) we're going to have to be real with each other. You both need to be real with each other, not just with me in hidden moments. Do you have to compare cock size? Hell no. But you do need to be honest, upfront and open about what it is that is holding you back in this relationship.

In pieces of your posts on here you both were, and then there are spots like this, where you both did not.

The truth is, it's scary to contemplate having an alternative relationship and even if GG and I hadn't had an affair, there would still be fear of what people would think about you "letting your wife fuck another man." The truth is that most won't give a damn, because they don't really give a damn about you.

Others will be offended, because their minds are too small and shallow to handle such a complicated idea as compersion is.

Others will think "huh," and move on curiously.

The ones who really matter have already told you that they love you, period.

So there is no reason for you to fear people thinking you are weak. You are not weak. You are very strong, sometimes too strong. But you are sure as hell not weak. Kinky, yes. Weak, no.

 

[LovingRadiance]

She is telling me that without GG and me being "friends," then she cant be happy with either of us. She has put a stop to a specific part of our relationship. She has said she is "pulling back" As far as one of us hurting, I can't speak for anyone else but I can say that there has been no need or desire by GG or me to push for more of a relationship between us. What happens is LR gets pissed because we are not friends, then he writes me an email saying how he wants to be friends, then I call a meeting and we talk about wanting to be friends, but nothing continues beyond that (till the next time LR blows up).

Actually, what I am saying is that there are levels of intimacy and they correspond with the level of acceptance and trust in a relationship. (If you want more in-depth details, please feel free to get the book "The Seven Levels of Intimacy," the best relationship book I've ever read.)

In order for our relationship (or mine and GG's) to continue to deepen into deeper levels of intimacy, you both have to learn to accept me completely for who I am and that means accepting that I am in love with both of you.

It is possible that you could each do that without being friends, living as a family makes it a little harder to have a comfortable family dynamic that way, but it is possible.

But it is not possible for me to feel accepted and loved completely for who I am, with all of my faults, if you (either of you) is attacking the other one, because in attacking one another whether aggressively or passive-aggressively, you are making it clear that you do not believe that the other is worthy of my love, affection and relationship. Therefore, you don't approve and accept all of me, because I have decided that both of you are worthy of my love, affection and relationship.

I need to be accepted for who I am in order to move to deeper levels of intimacy.

Known each other yes. Our living dynamic, as it stands now, is only 7 months old. Things change almost daily, so I can't pinpoint something that has changed, because everything has been changing.

We've lived together for 7 years. We've been poly for 7 months. You have known each other for 12 years. Things are changing quickly right now. All three of us are growing and maturing a lot right now. But the truth is that nothing significant has happened recently to re-engage the fear caused by us having an affair.

Every single time that either of you encounter a new situation, every single time that either of you encounter a learning point in your lives, you both freak the hell out. You (Maca) tend to lash out with "This is bullshit. I am who I am. I don't want that," etc. GG tends to go limp as a noodle and "play dead."

Either way, you both require someone to drag you kicking and screaming through the experience. Then you both acknowledge that you are happier and better off for having gotten through it. But I don't have an interest in continuing to drag either of you, much less both of you, through your own learning experiences and new situations. It's exhausting!

I was using the switch analogy in regards to the fact that I find it disappointing that anyone thinks that I can just turn off my feelings and turn off my role in their life.

I'm not sure what makes you think anyone was expecting that you could or would turn off your feelings. But you only have a role in someone's life in so much as they allow it. That's just a fact for all of us. We only have a role in any other person's life in so much as they allow us to.
You can't be my dom if I can't trust you with my soul. I can't trust you with my soul if I can't trust you with my heart. I can't trust you with my heart if I can't trust that you accept me for who I am.

If having that role is important to you (and I know it is, just as it is to me) then it's imperative that we work to ensure that you do accept me for who I am, so that I can trust you with my heart and my soul.

I never said I want to lose what we've gained. God forbid. I am thrilled at how far we've come. But it's not far enough to get what we both want.

It's not about what I want, Maca. It's about what we want. We want a deeper relationship. Therefore you have to solve some issues and I have to solve some issues. My issues are just as much a struggle for me as yours are for you.

As I said on our walk, the only difference is that I'm not fighting it. I know I need to make those steps, so I am just doing it. You can do the same. You are a strong man at heart. You are afraid you might not be, but I know you are. You survived, T. You survived your mom's bullshit. You've survived me having an affair. You've survived me. (Hell, most people can't do that!) You can make these steps. We can make these steps. We can make them together.

I guess we women forget how fragile even the tough guys are. But really, what makes you happiest is being part of, if not the sole reason, LR is happy. Nothing would make her happier than having a haven of love/security with you. That means accepting GG, but more importantly, standing in his shoes for a moment, being sensitive to the guilt that may be prohibiting him from really reaching out to you, and being brave enough to accept that GG has his own proprietary stake of LR's heart because of their very long and intimate connection.

Very well put, MG. It's not easy, but it is doable.

My bf tells me this all the time: he is soooo unhappy (distraught) when KT and I are at each other's throats. It makes him physically ill, and he is a guy's guy too. And although KT and I may not see eye to eye on everything (ok-most things), we need to remember we aren't hurting each other as much as we are hurting our relationship with P.

Exactly! They are destroying me with their bullshit. I do understand their fears. But it's impossible to prove that their fears are unfounded if they won't take the proverbial leap. They have to take the chance. The truth is, if they would take the chance, they both would find out that they are well-matched to be friends, roommates, family. Everyone in our family can see it except the two of them.

You seem to be such a great guy, very supportive and generous, keep working on the GG relationship because it will bring you and LR that much closer.

He is a great guy. He's very supportive. He's busted his ass to be there for me through every step of my surgeries and healing process. He's very generous now. He didn't used to be. Watched his dad get burned SO many times. But he is very much so now. As I said to him. a little faith and he will find that bringing a peace between himself and GG will help our relationship so very much that it will thrill his shoes right off of his feet.

 

[LovingRadiance]

Maca and I tend to "tolerate" each other, however (and please don't mistake this for me trying to be the "better man" because again, this is BOTH of us, not one or the other) I have attempted numerous times to really try and be friends with Maca. There are a few reasons it fails. One is that I don't "chase him down". I'm not an aggressive person. LR can attest to that. I show myself or my intentions or desires, even needs, and if no one ( or said person) responds to it, I drop it.

In order to "try" to have a relationship with anyone, there are steps that have to be taken. The first is you have to make yourself truly and honestly vulnerable to them (which you do not do). Then you have to make an effort to fulfil their needs (which you have done).
You are right, you have a terrible habit of starting things...
....
....
....
....

But not finishing them. There is no "trying" to be friends with someone if you don't follow through.

The truth is that it's never been important enough to you to throw yourself into it. You devoted everything in your life to our relationship. Everyone who knows you knows that you can and will devote yourself 100% to something that matters to you, because you have with me.
So if you don't put that much effort in, they also know that it does not matter to you.

Therefore, your actions have proven to everyone around you that you do not want a friendship with Maca, because if you did, you would stick to your guns no matter what, like you did with me for 17 years.

I've done what I can to show Maca that I want a closer relationship with him. I'm sure I could do more, and will keep trying.

REALLY?? REALLY?? You've done for him what you did for me to show that you want a closer relationship? I don't fucking thing so.
...
...
...

Actually, I KNOW you haven't.

But it's obvious to me that he doesn't want it. And I don't want to "force" myself on him to be friends. I wouldn't want that either if it were the other way around.

That's true and honest. You don't want to put forth the effort, and neither does he. But him not wanting to isn't why you don't do it. Because I didn't want a "closer relationship" for years and that didn't stop you from continuing to be there at my side every moment. How many hours did you spend sitting on the curb waiting for me, waiting in the car, at a bus stop, etc.?

And it's not like we avoid each other like the plague. We do do things together, and with the kids.

Very true, and when you do, you both do very well together. You get along great. You enjoy your time together. You enjoy the activities you do together. Ironically, when you both stop trying so damn hard to prove you are totally different, you get along great as though you WERE PERFECTLY FUCKING COMPATIBLE!!

There seems to be this big "we're so different" thing going on-well WHO THE FUCK CARES??? Emmy and I are POLAR FUCKING OPPOSITES! But we are COMPATIBLE. We're not ALIKE. We're COMPATIBLE.

SO ARE BOTH OF YOU!!!!!

But we're just not typically the type of people we'd hang out with if it were not for our situation or our devotion to LR.

You are both SO FULL OF SHIT! Two high school-age potheads... Uh huh.
YOUR BEST FRIEND IS A GOD DAMN IBEW ELECTRICIAN... so is Maca.
HOLY SHIT, you two are SO FUCKING OBSTINATELY DETERMINED TO PROVE THAT YOU HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON.

GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELVES, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!

That's why we're a V. It's LR that connects us. It's not a triad or a triangle.

No M'ebe, that's not true. The reason we are a V and not a triad is because you are both STRAIGHT!

I do respect him enough to not step up to certain responsibilities because he's her husband, and I'm also the type of person to allow others to "go first in line" if you will.

Be careful with that, the underlined part. It really pisses him and me off when one of the men I am devoted to "does not step up to" their responsibility to me. I don't give a shit what the reason it. If you are my man, you owe it to me to BE my man.

But I don't trust him. I don't trust him to have the family as a whole's best interest in mind. I don't trust him when he says he wants to do things that involve me either with the kids or the family, or the three of us. His attitude says differently.

Did I mention that you have this in common, as well?

 

[midnightsun]

Hopefully both you and GG will be here in the summer Maca. Bonfires and beer have a way of bonding people...if all else fails I'm seriously gonna get Redpepper to go Mistress on both your asses

Mono, if they don't make it I'll personally fly RP up here for an "attitude adjustment" session of epic proportion! Lol But only if I get to watch!

Maca: I'm glad you caught your negative thought pattern and stopped to consider whether or not it's valid. As with *any* relationship, it's easy to get caught up in the hurts (real and/or perceived) of the past and to keep dredging it up in your mind-- "keeping that person imprisoned in your mind," as Pastor Tim put it.

I hear both of you expressing a lot of anger, frustration and resentment over how you've hurt LR, have or haven't been there for LR, have or haven't cared for LR up to the other one's standards. I understand that you both love her to the ends of the earth, but why are you beating each other up in your minds over the other person's relationship with LR?

Yes, it's both of your jobs to love, care for and protect LR, but not from each other. I have known LR long enough to know this much-- that girl can hold her own! GG's relationship with LR is *his* relationship. If he's not there for her when she needs him, that's up to her to deal with with him. Maca, I hear you being resentful because he wasn't there. Well, if you were in a "mono" relationship it would've been just you, anyway. Right? It's up to LR to hold him accountable for acting as if you and she are in a mono relationship, and he's just a roommate.

I've gotten the impression from you, over and over again, that you feel like you're in a poly relationship against your will, to a certain extent. You've repeatedly stated that you'd prefer to be in a mono relationship with LR. Yet, when GG gives you what you ask for and acts like a roommate, you are resentful of him. And when he gives LR what she needs/wants and acts like a boyfriend, you're resentful of him, as well.

Shame on him for trying to please you both, instead of figuring out what *he* wants. But even so, I can see why the heck he's confused about how to act. He's a people-pleaser to the core of his soul, and he's trying to please you both, which at the moment (since you and LR both want different things) is a lose-lose proposition for him.

You say you don't want to be his friend, aren't interested in a relationship with him, but yet you expect him to be there for you and back you up when you're caring for LR. I'm sorry, but it seems like you're trying have it both ways. If you want him to act like a friend to you then you need to be a friend to him as well. As far as whether he's there for her or not, that's between them, unless you choose to change the dynamic.

If you want to be able to hold him accountable for not being there for LR, then I see two things that need to happen.

1. You need to *commit* to the poly FAMILY between the three of you.
2. You need to have a REAL relationship w/GG.

You're trying to hold him accountable as if those two things are facts, when they aren't. If you're not even his friend, and you won't fully and completely commit to being in a poly family with him and LR, then you have no right to hold him accountable for not being fully committed to it or to her, according to your standards. If you're not a poly family, then he's just her boyfriend and it's her business how she handles the relationship with him. If you want to expect more out of him, then you need to be willing to commit to more yourself.

GG, I'm not letting you off the hook either. Kudos for opening up about how you feel and speaking your mind. That's a major step for you, especially given your people-pleasing nature. Good job! However, I see you doing the same as Maca in several instances: focusing on his transgressions against LR in the past and letting it affect your attitude towards him. There appears to be a lack of respect, trust and forgiveness between both of you for the other one. You, GG, have used it as an excuse to sit on the fence as far as your commitment to LR, trying to please him and her alternately, instead of standing up for what you want and living up to the commitments you decide to make.

If you fail to step up and make a commitment to being a fully responsible and equal member of your poly family, then you have no right to complain that someone else isn't making enough of an effort to have a relationship with you or that he's not meeting LR or the family's needs. If you're just going to act like a roommate, it's not your place to complain about that. That's between him and LR. So, if you want to have a say in it and you want to BE more than a roommate in that family, then you must needs act like a full fledged member of that poly family.

That's my advice to you both. Put up or shut up. It appears to me as if there is a lot of finger pointing at the moment and a lot of using the other person's actions to excuse/justify your own actions/position. (I could be wrong. That has been known to happen!) Justification is the road to self destruction (in my experience, anyway.) It seems to me like whenever someone's main concern is to defend and justify their position, it's usually because they aren't interested in seeing things from the other person's point of view.

So, before either of you can get anywhere in a relationship with LR, with each other (or with anyone else, for that matter), you both first need to figure out what you truly want out of the relationships, and then commit 100% to them. Then work on eliminating the justifications and the negative thought loops. Forgive one another, and then begin to build some trust and respect between all 3 of you. All of that has to happen first in order for you to have something to build a friendship on. It's no wonder you're not friends, with all the other crap blocking the way.

I love all three of you. I hope you both recognize I'm saying all of this out of love and a sincere desire to see you grow as individuals AND succeed as a family.

This is where I put my disclaimer. "The opinions and viewpoints expressed in this post are solely the author's, and are not intended to represent the viewpoint of polyamory.com or other uninvolved parties." Please don't get mad at me for butting in.

 

[midnightsun]

No M'ebe, that's not true. The reason we are a V and not a triad is because you are both straight!

Damn shame, too. *giggle* (Sorry, I read this 5 minutes ago and I'm still giggling!) Thanks for the laugh, LR!

 

[LovingRadiance]

But I also believe that somewhere deep down, he really does want this to work. We've had some moments that were pretty deep, heartfelt. I'm talking about the real stuff. So I know it's there in him. That's the real him. But he doesn't want me to hurt him again, so he refuses to let it out continuously with me.

You both have this in common too. Neither one is willing to be vulnerable continuously with one another, or anyone else but me.

I WANT so bad to give him the benefit of the doubt, but honestly, I don't think he even knows what he really wants, or else he just won't admit it to himself. And I can't break through that.

And you do? Really? You and I have been going rounds for a couple months now (as shown on my thread) because you can't decide WHAT THE FUCK YOU WANT FROM OUR RELATIONSHIP, a relationship that has existed in one form or another for 17 fucking years, M'ebe! So how can you even comment about the "splinter in his eye"? You don't know what the fuck you want, either!

Will we ever be best friends? Maybe but not likely. Will we ever be able to trust each other? I think so, as long as we both decide to stop letting fear control us. Can we function as a whole unit? Yes, I believe so, but not unless it's what we each want. I want it, LR wants it, Maca does not. (or refuses to admit to himself that he does)

Be careful how far you step in saying what he wants/needs/feels. Neither of you has taken the time to be vulnerable with one another-so neither of you knows the other.

Are you sure it is that black and white. Could it simply be an expectation of reciprocation?...maybe its a I love you...you love me?...

It is very much a "If you want me to love you, you better fucking love me," very much a "I'll believe it if and when I see it for some undefined amount of time," situation type deal for Maca.

More than anything, it's an issue that both of them are really good at tracking each others failures, great self-defense mechanism for each of them feeling like they are failing in one manner or another. But they both such at tracking each other's strengths and positive qualities, and most especially, the steps they have each taken to grow and learn and improve themselves. It might mean facing that the other is better at something and that would hurt too much, reinforcing their own belief that they aren't good enough.

Ironically, they are both amazingly strong in opposite areas, and if they did get over their high horses they could totally have each other's back so perfectly! Like a right-handed and a left-handed friend sword fighting at each other's sides. They are very compatible, just not identical.

Let's use Redpepper's fish tank analogy. If its full and you have your own tank and its full too, if you suddenly find it a little empty, I am more than willing to fill it, but it leaves me a little empty. If I have no one there to help keep mine full but I am always giving to other people, I end up feeling empty.

THAT my friend is the real reason why I have been throwing a fit. Because I feel empty. HOW THE HELL does a hinge become empty? Let me tell ya. The hinge becomes empty when both ends of the fucking arms are so busy sucking them drt, and not busy enough refilling.

Seriously, it's like people think, well, she has two partners, so I can give less. Um... no. I have two partners. I have to give the same amount to both, and both of them need to be giving me the same amount as they would if they were the only person I was in a relationship with.
It's not Maca's or GG's job to fill up where the other does not. They are each fully responsible for the relationship between themself and me.
Except they aren't upholding it.

There may always be something he is holding back, protecting for himself, just in case he needs to be there to hold himself up and hold LR up when you aren't there or you break that trust.

That is exactly what he does, to a fault. And GG gives himself away completely, to a fault, to the point of being unable to be there for me.

I wonder if he is protecting this peace from more than just with you, protecting that piece from everyone except LR.

Yep. Maca gives himself to his dad 100%, but not even to me, never has. Hopefully someday he will, but he hasn't yet. I am not faulting him on this. I don't give myself 100% either, though very few people know it.

I opened up to Maca and GG about the deepest part of myself that I had ever shared, and it blew up in my face in such a huge explosion that I pulled back again.

I think LR recovering might take a small part in the frustration. Another log on the fire, if you will. But it goes deeper than that. He's still battling with a lyric I refer to often. "It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got," by Sheryl Crow

You two have that in common as well. Let's get the dirt out on the table, guys. You, M'ebe, can't figure out how to accept poly. But poly is what you have, so how about you work on wanting what you got? And he should too. Then, if you both do, we can all enjoy this life and family that we already have, instead of continuing to wish for some theoretically perfect thing that we think we want.

I do not exist in his perfect world, but neither does LR, as LR is. He does love who she is, but I am part of the reason for that, and he can't deny that.

This is a huge issue. In that book I noted earlier he addresses this. The person we love, they became that person through their experiences. I would not be the person anyone in my life likes today if it weren't for GG. But I also would not be the person that GG fell in love with if Maca hadn't walked into my life 5 years before GG. That moment had a huge impact on who I was when GG came into my life.

 

[LovingRadiance]

I'm sure we both would admit that the only time that an attempt is made to be " friends" is when LR has a shit fit about the fact that we are not friends. I havent allowed myself to trust your intentions. I've known from the time of the affair that you want to be " with LR " enough so that you were willing to risk breaking up our marriage. So when you extend an invitation to be friends and it happens when LR is throughing a fit about us not being friends, is it really you wanting to be frineds or our you jus trying to keep her happy?

You both do it to shut me up. Which is one of the most annoying things that you each do. I absolutely HATE when ANYONE does something JUST to shut me up. I'd prefer no effort over fake effort.

We have just spent the last few months dealing with the fact that you don't do anything for yourself. You do it because someone else wants you to do it. So why would I believe that you want to be friends? You don't make it easy to believe that it is "YOU" that wants a friendship. At least I have the balls to say that I'm not sure that I want a deep friendship with you. I don't even know who you are. you don't even know who you are.

This is a very valid point. One that we've discussed in all of the different relationships in this family. It's imperative for both of you to figure out what you want in life, who you are and where you are going. Nothing else can happen in our family until you both do those steps.

I'm a protector. I don't trust those that don't protect LR or my kids from their friends or family.

Also very true, but you need to strengthen yourself by also acknowledging that if you expect others to protect us in order to be trusted, you must also. That means not being the one who is doing us harm.
It's good to expect people to not do your family harm, all of your family. But first you have to expect yourself to "do no harm."

Seriously??? I was caring enough for LR and my family and for your feelings when I said I would stay and work on understanding Poly and understanding why/ how LR can love more then one. SO I could get what? Laid? Money? Security? What did I get? I can get laid. I make enough money. I'm less secure being in a new dynamic ( that I swore I would never be in). I knew the night I said I would try that you were not going to leave. So what the hell was I trying to get out of the biggest and hardest decision I have ever made?

Honestly, you did it for the kids, not for me or GG, and not because you wanted it. GG did it for me. Not because he wanted it, and not for you or the kids.

I know what I want, GG. My issue is not in knowing what I want but in knowing how to get it. I still have to build a trust in you, I still have insecurities and jealousy that I have to deal with.

You have to face jealousy and insecurity in order to deal with them. You can't avoid them. Avoiding giving GG a chance to fuck up means avoiding solving these issues that plague you. You need this, M. You need this peace, this forgiveness, this friendship for yourself. It's true that it will benefit me. It's true that it will benefit GG. But it will benefit you, my love, and you need the benefit.

I have asked you several times in the last month what it is you want in this dynamic. What it is that you see as the goal. What your needs are. Have you given me anything to work with?

Nope, he hasn't. GG, you need to get your ass in gear on this. It's imperative for any of us to move forward as a family that you define WHO YOU ARE, WHAT YOU WANT and NEED, WHERE YOU ARE GOING with your life, or we can't move this boat.

GG, If I didn't want us to function as a unit, why would I promote movie cuddle time? Why would I buy a ring and a card for LR and then offer you a chance to put your name on it and give it to her with me for V-Day? Why would I stand up to the nurse at the hospital when she wasn't going to let you go back to see LR with me after her surgery? Why would I offer going to your siblings house (who hate LR) with you to back you up? Those things may mean nothing to you, but they are major to me.

There are a number of possible answers. It's difficult for me to know why, because you can't tell me why. You told me that you didn't want the ring to be from both of you, so why did you offer for him to give it to me with you?
You are tense, uncomfortable, cold, distant when we cuddle, so why do you promote it?
You give a mixed message. Asking someone who you refuse to be vulnerable with why you do these things is a waste of time. He can't possibly know the answer. You are vulnerable with me more often than anyone but your dad, and I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER!

Quitting is not an option for me, never will be. If we can all take care of each other and protect each other then we have a chance of promoting each other to be the best person that we can be.

Me either. I love you-and I'm not leaving. I love GG and I'm not leaving him either. We CAN do this-it's just going to take some faith. Faith in ourselves and faith in each other too.

I completely put myself into "healing LR." I didnt take any breaks, miss an appointment, put myself ahead of her. I didnt do it alone. I had people that helped but the one guy that mattered the most (besides myself) was there part time.

Heartbreakingly true. I can't really say much to this, because it's still a painful topic for me too.
But we all make mistakes Maca. You, me, GG. We all do. The reality is that while you kicked ass through pregnancy, labor/delivery and surgery/recovery, you sucked at being there for me during your custody battle (that I was fighting for you) or with my heartache over the attacks your ex wages against me and my daughter.
We all fuck up. We have to forgive and move on. Either they step up and learn from their mistakes, or they don't. In this case, he will, you both will, step up and learn from your mistakes, and so will I. I have faith in all three of us.

As I was responding to this quote I realised I was keep account of all the times that GG let LR or I down. What I wasn't doing was taking into account all the times he was there for her when I wasn't. So I deleted my first response and wrote this instead. I do hold back a " reserve " it has been necessary as of late. But that is not an excuse. Your post has given me food or thought.

XO Good job, M. I'm proud of you for admitting that. It's great that you did it, but it's even better that you admitted it.

 

[LovingRadiance]

Ok, I just realised that someone else was writing too. Get out of my head, woman! Actually I think it's impressive how similar what you posted (much more succinctly then I) and what I posted are. (I'm so damn wordy.)

Night, all.

 

[midnightsun]

Get out of my head!

But it's so damn entertaining! There are so many pretty colors, most of them shades of lavender. However, I must say it needs a good cleaning. It's VERY dirty in here! LMFAO!

 

[Morningglory629]

Maca: I'm glad you caught your negative thought pattern and stopped to consider whether or not it's valid. As with *any* relationship, it's easy to get caught up in the hurts (real and/or perceived) of the past and to keep dredging it up in your mind... "keeping that person imprisoned in your mind"


I've gotten the impression from you over & over again that you feel like you're in a poly relationship "against your will" to a certain extent. You've repeatedly stated that you'd prefer to be in a mono relationship w/LR. Yet, when GG gives you what you ask for and acts like a roommate... you are resentful of him. And when he gives LR what she needs/wants and acts like a boyfriend, you're resentful of him as well. Shame on him for trying to please you both instead of figuring out what *he* wants... but even so, I can see why the heck he's confused about how to act. He's a people-pleaser to the core of his soul, and he's trying to please you both... which at the moment (since you & LR both want different things) is a lose-lose proposition for him.

If you want to be able to hold him accountable for not being there for LR, then I see two things that need to happen... #1. You need to *commit* to the poly FAMILY between the three of you. #2. You need to have a REAL relationship w/GG. Because you're trying to hold him accountable as if those two things are facts when they aren't. If you're not even his friend, and you won't fully & completely COMMIT to being in a poly family w/him & LR, then you have no right to hold HIM accountable for not being fully committed to it or to her according to your standards. If you're not a poly FAMILY, then he's just her boyfriend and it's her business how she handles the relationship with him. If you want to expect more out of him, then you need to be willing to commit to more yourself.
GG... I'm not letting you off the hook either. Kudos for opening up about how you feel and speaking your mind. That's a major step for you, especially given your people-pleasing nature, good job! However, I see you doing the same as Maca in several instances... focusing on his transgressions against LR in the past and letting it affect your attitude towards him. There appears to be a lack of respect, trust and forgiveness between BOTH of you for the other one. *You* (GG) have used it as an excuse to sit on the fence as far as YOUR commitment to LR... trying to please him and her alternately instead of standing up for what YOU want and living up to the choice/commitment you decide to make.

If you fail to step up & make a commitment to being a FULLY responsible & equal member of your poly family, then you have no right to complain that someone else isn't making enough of an effort to have a relationship with you or that he's not meeting LR or the family's needs. If you're just going to act like a roommate, it's not your place to complain about that. That's between him & LR. So, if you want to have a say in it and you want to BE more than a roommate in that family, then you must needs ACT like a full fledged member of that poly family.

That's my advice to you both. Put up or shut up. It appears to me as if there is a lot of finger pointing at the moment and a lot of using the other person's actions to excuse/justify your own actions/position. (I could be wrong... that has been known to happen!) Justification is the road to self destruction (in my experience anyway.) It seems to me like whenever someone's main concern is to defend & justify their position, it's usually because they aren't interested in seeing things from the other person's point of view.

WOW! Gulp! I felt that smack of reality! I am also guilty of being part of the same patterns. Why is it that we can intellectually see the bad behaviors in others, but emotionally we cannot control our own negative output in our relationships? YIKES! I got some work to do too! Thanks, MidSun!

 

[redpepper]

Thanks for all your open honesty. I admire that. I have been unable to trust enough to really open up on here about things that go on. It all gets discussed offline. There doesn't seem to be anything major worth talking about, actually.

Anyway, thank you.

Yeah, and if you don't sort it out by the time you leave here, the bull whip will come out. I'll line you all up.