How do you rebuild trust?

[GreenAcres]

Also, if you're privy to all communication between them and either one of both of them knows it, you are unlikely to get anything honest out of it. It's unlikely she, and probably he, would share genuine communication knowing someone else was going to read every word, especially if they're on pins and needles about your reactions. I certainly would't be open and forthcoming (of course, I also would never agree to it in the first place, ick!), that would just be invasive, creepy, and weird (at best).

So, by demanding this, you're just creating a false construct of safety that just pushes honest communication farther away. You'd almost certainly only be getting heavily self-edited communications, so unless you're going to also plant a secret tape recorder, you're not going to get any kind of realistic idea of what their relationship is anyway. Which, I would think, would make you even less trusting, since it's likely to be pretty obvious you're not getting the "whole story."

 

[purplepeach72]

Some clarifying points

I truly appreciate every single response to my original post and thank you all for taking the time to reply. However there seems to be some misunderstandings in regards to the original situation.

First of all, at no point did I "sneak, snoop or break into" my husbands email. The 2 of us have always had each others email passwords, always had an agreement to share our correspondence openly, and yes all of my poly partners in the past were aware & accepted the agreement that all was open to be read. This was an agreement we had in order for him to feel secure in our relationship when I had other poly partners. It has rarely been an issue or actually used by either of us. In this instance he openly invited me to read the email traffic between him and the woman he was cheating with. She was not aware of that agreement until after I read all the emails. That was his omission not mine I had no contact with her. Had I not been able to read the emails sent between them during the affair I do not think I could have moved forward with the relationship. I needed him to come clean with me so that we could start over again. I fully aware of the fact that no amount of policing his communications would really tell me if he was being honest since there are always ways around that. I was upset that this was originally his need & yet he was unable & unwilling to uphold that. We have worked through this and come to an understanding of how we move forward in a way that respects everyone's privacy.

In regards to my not truly being open and honest with him or some how passive aggressively preventing him from being comfortable with being poly I really don't think that is the case. He doesn't think that is the case either. He never identified as poly until he started to have feelings for this woman. In fact he steadfastly refused to consider that he might be. He doesn't want to be. He has a long history and a lot of baggage with the other women in his life not living up to what they say they are willing to do and being completely open and honest has always been a struggle for him. According to him, he fell back into that monogamous thinking of needing to hide this in order to keep from hurting me, being afraid that he was poly, not trusting that I would be supportive, hoping that his feelings for her would go away. I'm not one to shy away from my role in issues within my marriage. I know that nothing happens in a vacuum. I should have pushed him harder to stay emotionally in touch with me, communicated more, asked more questions and several other things I could have done but I'm pretty sure this was primarily him making bad choices.

We spent this entire last weekend working through what happened, how, why and what we can do together and individually to keep things like this from happening again as well as moving forward. We revised our relationship plan to be more open and allow other relationship the room to grow and develop without damaging the one we already have. Only time will tell if we succeed at that. Thank you all for helping me see my errors and pushing me to be more accepting of the uncertainty. This is a very scary new part of our relationship but it is also very exciting. It will all take time, patience and hard work for all 3 of us.

Thanks again and I hope everyone had a nice weekend.
Love each other well,
L

 

[Magdlyn]

OK, but does his gf NOW know that her bf's wife has read all her words of love, desire and other intimate details of her life, without her permission??

I would be so embarrassed if I were in her shoes, and now also resentful and mistrusting that he has now quite recently broken MY trust, as well as the trust of his wife! I think I'd dump him toute de suite if I were her.

Why didn't you ask him if he had asked for and received her permission to read her words, before you went ahead and read them? You just didn't care? Here she was, thinking he was single, and speaking her mind in a new sexual relationship, and now a third party has read all her words against her will. Ugh.

You both owe her an apology and should kiss her feet if she agrees to continue with your husband. Your couple privilege is very apparent.

I am sorry, my response is harsh. But I find it all so unethical. You want sympathy as the wronged, cheated on wife, but your actions also violate the personhood of this woman.

 

[purplepeach72]

Not kissing anyone's feet.

Yes she knew that the bulk of their secret email correspondence had been read at his invitation to me the day after it happened. She also knows that I was not snooping but invited by him to read it all. He broke her trust from the start by not telling her he was married and had been for 3 years. Their whole relationship was built on a lie. She knew for weeks before I did that he was married and how our relationship worked or was supposed to work. She made the choice to continue it not only after learning he was married but again after he invited me to read the email and she has agreed that he can share anything with me that involves how we are all going to make this work since she isn't able, willing, ready to be in direct contact with me.

As for asking him if he had her permission frankly it never occurred to me since our agreement was to have open emails with each other. It was his responsibility to be honest with her not mine. I thought she was a platonic friend and college not a lover and as a platonic college, former professor and friend there should have been nothing damning or deeply personal involved to read. It never occurred to me that he would have me read emails as a way to tell me he was having a clandestine affair. The emails I read were after he told her he was married. It is hard to know you are violating someone's privacy when there shouldn't be any expectation of it.

You are entitled to your opinion but I do not owe this woman anything, especially not an apology or kissing her feet. She choose to continue an affair with him even after she knew he was married knowing that he had an open email, full disclosure agreement with me that he was violating. She just expected him to continue violating his agreement with me to keep her privacy and she was wrong. She knew that I didn't know anything about her other than as his friend and former professor. I on the other hand acted based on the agreement I had with my husband and his explicit invite to read the email train. She has made a choice to continue the relationship with us, not just him, and she will have a say in how that happens but so do I. No one in this is completely without blame and wrong doing but then I didn't come here asking anyone to help me figure out blame. I came here looking for ways to make a poly relationship work. We all have to start somewhere and not all of us have the benefit of years in this lifestyle.

I didn't ask for your sympathy as the cheated on wife I asked for ideas on how people who love each other can rebuild trust and how to move forward to make a better relationship for all 3 of us plus anyone else who might become involved. So far you haven't offered anything but condemnation for me and excuses for the woman cheating with my husband. It is obvious where your sympathies lie and I'm sure that is with good reason. Thank you for once again trying to point out how wrong I am.

OK, but does his gf NOW know that her bf's wife has read all her words of love, desire and other intimate details of her life, without her permission??

I would be so embarrassed if I were in her shoes, and now also resentful and mistrusting that he has now quite recently broken MY trust, as well as the trust of his wife! I think I'd dump him toute de suite if I were her.

Why didn't you ask him if he had asked for and received her permission to read her words, before you went ahead and read them? You just didn't care? Here she was, thinking he was single, and speaking her mind in a new sexual relationship, and now a third party has read all her words against her will. Ugh.

You both owe her an apology and should kiss her feet if she agrees to continue with your husband. Your couple privilege is very apparent.

I am sorry, my response is harsh. But I find it all so unethical. You want sympathy as the wronged, cheated on wife, but your actions also violate the personhood of this woman.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi LeeAnn,

I fear I am somewhat guilty of a similar sin as my partner Snowbunny and I have a standing agreement that Snowbunny is to have access to all the conversations I have with other women. The agreement has fallen out of use, but there was at least one woman I exchanged emails with for some time, and Snowbunny was always carboned and even participated in the conversation.

I don't know what would happen if a conversation between another woman and me started becoming intimate. I suppose at some point Snowbunny would withdraw from reading/participating and her judgment is usually very good, but we have no official agreement about how to draw the line between "private" and "privy," and in the meantime whatever Snowbunny asks to see, I'll show her.

So I don't consider it my place to lecture you about what of your husband's conversations with his girlfriend you read; furthermore I get the impression that she accepted it after the fact and is still willing to move forward with the relationship. If she's okay with it, then I see no reason why I shouldn't be okay with it. Sometimes things work in one relationship that wouldn't work in another.

Just my own thoughts,
Kevin T.

 

[graviton]

Here is my take on it and my advice

-bravo for not just vetoing her
-I understand this hurts you
-get over yourself and any sense of self righteousness, it won't help and will only make things worse

This is your husbands first foray into poly and as such mistakes will be made. Sometimes people don't even know they are falling in love until one day BOOM they realize that their attention, care for one another and flirting really has turned to genuine love. By that time they are already way down the rabbit hole and have fallen into "emotional cheating". You have had the benefit of being able to conduct poly with a monogamous husband up until recently. That arrangement is exceedingly easy because it has never forced you to deal with the hard side of poly...namely getting over the jealousy of your spouse loving someone else. I can see how he may have been surprised by the fact that he was cheating. It probably didn't feel like cheating given that nothing physical was happening and his wife in the meantime is off enjoying full blown physical and emotional ties with others. That, coupled with the desire for PRIVACY when talking to another human being makes it all feel like cheating to you. I would say his biggest mistake was not owning up to being married which I think leads me to sway to your side a bit on the cheating accusation. Otherwise I have a pretty dim view of poly people claiming emotional cheating.

My recommendation to you is to try to be supportive and understanding to your husband in the same way you would be to anyone new to poly. He is new and fumbling into this. You becoming a bitter, demanding wife is not going to help him open up to you, in fact it will only confirm any suspicion he has about your ability to deal with his being poly. There are reasons that people hide things, it usually stems from fear. His lying to her about his marital status probably came from fear of scaring her away, and besides he probably figured it didn't matter since it was just harmless texting or emailing. His not telling you about the relationship probably comes from fear of drama or your inability to handle such information. I'm guessing that he has read some subtle cues from you that you are OK with poly as long as its just you that gets to practice it. It would be nice to hear from him on this. Perhaps he has seen you deal with your other lovers or make offhanded comments that made him lose trust in your ability to "allow" him the same benefits you have been enjoying. If you want to build trust, the first thing you will need to do is give him a safe place to share information with. Trust is a two way street. Information needs to be handled with care and love from both parties. Give them their privacy if that is what they desire. You now know the important stuff, they love each other and they would perhaps like to express that love in the way that normal people do, in the way that you also do with others outside of your marriage. What else is there to know? Make him aware of the expectation you had placed on him (via your poly contract?) and let him know why breaking that expectation hurt you. Now is a good time to redraft that contract with a mind for both of you being poly as I'm guessing you both won't see eye to eye on what should be in it and will need to negotiate.

 

[purplepeach72]

Not all one size

Hey Kevin,
Thank you for sharing that. It's nice to know that other people have/had similar agreements with regards to sharing correspondence with additional partners. Like your example this was not something we did very often but it was a safety net for us both in keeping each other honest. The basic idea I was trying to explain was that our standing agreement was not meant as a violation of anyone else's sanctity as a person nor do I think that my husband's new GF took it that way once it was explained to her. Furthermore she agreed to move forward. There has been no physical relationship for them at this point so although it might be emotionally painful to "split" there is no physical connection. They have never held hands never mind had sex and we all live half way around the world from each other. Cutting off this relationship would not be as hard as if they lived in the same town. She is still willing to travel here to Italy from the US to pursue this under the new terms we are all setting so she must be ok with them. It may not work for everyone and I can see that for many people it is an abhorrent situation or stipulation but it worked for us and some variation of it seems to be working for all 3 of us. I'm sure things will evolve and grow but at least we are trying. Thank you for your understanding and support. I appreciate it.
LeeAnn

 

[kdt26417]

No prob, glad to hear things are working out okay.

 

[GreenAcres]

If everyone knows and agrees on what is being shared, and agrees without coercion, then whatever agreements are made aren't unethical. If there was no threat made that it was either that or end their relationship, and she agreed freely, then that is informed consent.

As for there being no physical connection and so it being "easier" to break things off for them, that isn't necessarily the case (for example, there are many asexual people in the world--they definitely wouldn't say that their relationships would be easier to end simply because they didn't have sex). Not everyone gets attached in the same ways, and emotional bonds are, for many, far more meaningful and deep than physical ones. Clearly, I have no way of knowing if this is true for you husband and his GF or not, but I do think it's always important for us to keep in mind that not everyone feels as we do about things.

I will say that, had I been her, I'd have dumped him as soon as I found out he was married. Not because he was married, but because he was dishonest. They didn't get to the "we're in love" phase without any opportunity for him to tell her he was in an open, poly relationship. While Gravitron may be right, that he didn't tell her because he was scared it would scare her off, I would be pretty pissed that someone made the decision that I'd be in a relationship with a married man for me, rather than letting me decide for myself. If she was going to be scared off by that knowledge, better to know that sooner rather than later. Your husband come off, to me, as awfully cavelier with everyone else's autonomy, feelings, etc. For me, that would be a deal breaker, but it's clearly not for either of you.

 

[purplepeach72]

The full depth and breadth of a relationship is hard to convey

I am fully supportive of my husband being poly. I think your understanding of our relationship is a bit skewed. When my husband and I first met he was dating 5 other women besides me. I was the only one of the 6 who knew about all the others because the other women were not swingers or poly. I was both and insisted that if we were going to be involved with each other he had to be honest with me and anyone else about who he was involved with. I believe my willingness, openness and ability to love him through this difficult time in his life is one of the many reasons we are married and have had a wonderful relationship. This most recent hick-up not included.

At the time, I was exploring what it meant for me to be poly and he joined me in learning about open relationships, poly relationships and we talked about how that might work for us. My being poly was primarily in regards to my being bi-sexual and looking for a relationship with a woman. I also enjoy swinging activities but prefer to have some emotional connection to all people I have sex with. My husband did not feel that he wanted or needed additional emotional attachments at that time. I think he and I both agree that his hiding this was a combination of him not thinking that the relationship was ever going to be anything beyond emails, not wanting to admit that he was indeed poly, fear of hurting and/or losing the two women he was in love with, having to deal with not being honest about his feelings and being hypocritical in his requirements of me not engaging in any poly or swinger activities while we are overseas.

I have not been involved with other men in a poly relationship while my husband was monogamous. He has never been monogamous despite claiming that he was the last 2 years. We have always been swingers(until this move), my poly relationships while we have been together have only been with other women. The 2 men I had a relationship with during our marriage were not full poly relationships and my husband was not here. His job takes him away for months to a year at a time. Those relationships were more of a swinging nature with my husband getting full access including videos of me with the other men as he requested. I did have emotional connections with the men I had sex with. I cared about them but there was no question of me being in love with them.

The only time our marriage has been monogamous is the last 2 years because of where we live and the community we live in. It was not monogamous because we wanted it to be that way just because he felt it would be detrimental to his career to be otherwise. Our swinging lifestyle had to be put on hold due to his fear of reprisals should it become known. He insisted that we not be involved in any sort of alternative lifestyle until we were able to move back to the US. This is another reason he didn't want to be honest about starting a new romantic relationship because it makes him appear very hypocritical to be telling me that I can even talk to friends or therapist about missing our lifestyle while he is pursuing another woman and having sex without telling me.

I do not feel I'm being self righteous. I have gone out of my way to reconcile with my husband and include his new love in that process of moving forward with a relationship that works for all 3 of us. He and I spent this entire last weekend discussing what happened, why and how to avoid it in the future as well as redrafting our relationship contract which we will ask his GF's input and feedback on as well. I don't see how that is being self righteous. You are right that I have never had to deal with sharing my husband's love with another woman but neither has he ever had to share mine. The very limited amount of sharing of my emotions he has had to do were under terms much more restrictive than anything I have asked for in his relationship with his new love. We are both experienced with sharing each other sexually but not emotionally. This is new territory for both of us. I think I'm entitled to the same loving understanding that he is.

Here is my take on it and my advice

-bravo for not just vetoing her
-I understand this hurts you
-get over yourself and any sense of self righteousness, it won't help and will only make things worse

This is your husbands first foray into poly and as such mistakes will be made. Sometimes people don't even know they are falling in love until one day BOOM they realize that their attention, care for one another and flirting really has turned to genuine love. By that time they are already way down the rabbit hole and have fallen into "emotional cheating". You have had the benefit of being able to conduct poly with a monogamous husband up until recently. That arrangement is exceedingly easy because it has never forced you to deal with the hard side of poly...namely getting over the jealousy of your spouse loving someone else. I can see how he may have been surprised by the fact that he was cheating. It probably didn't feel like cheating given that nothing physical was happening and his wife in the meantime is off enjoying full blown physical and emotional ties with others. That, coupled with the desire for PRIVACY when talking to another human being makes it all feel like cheating to you. I would say his biggest mistake was not owning up to being married which I think leads me to sway to your side a bit on the cheating accusation. Otherwise I have a pretty dim view of poly people claiming emotional cheating.

My recommendation to you is to try to be supportive and understanding to your husband in the same way you would be to anyone new to poly. He is new and fumbling into this. You becoming a bitter, demanding wife is not going to help him open up to you, in fact it will only confirm any suspicion he has about your ability to deal with his being poly. There are reasons that people hide things, it usually stems from fear. His lying to her about his marital status probably came from fear of scaring her away, and besides he probably figured it didn't matter since it was just harmless texting or emailing. His not telling you about the relationship probably comes from fear of drama or your inability to handle such information. I'm guessing that he has read some subtle cues from you that you are OK with poly as long as its just you that gets to practice it. It would be nice to hear from him on this. Perhaps he has seen you deal with your other lovers or make offhanded comments that made him lose trust in your ability to "allow" him the same benefits you have been enjoying. If you want to build trust, the first thing you will need to do is give him a safe place to share information with. Trust is a two way street. Information needs to be handled with care and love from both parties. Give them their privacy if that is what they desire. You now know the important stuff, they love each other and they would perhaps like to express that love in the way that normal people do, in the way that you also do with others outside of your marriage. What else is there to know? Make him aware of the expectation you had placed on him (via your poly contract?) and let him know why breaking that expectation hurt you. Now is a good time to redraft that contract with a mind for both of you being poly as I'm guessing you both won't see eye to eye on what should be in it and will need to negotiate.

 

[purplepeach72]

Informed consent & moving forward

I never made any threats to either of them about ending the relationship they started. I made it very clear to him from the start that I was not going to use my veto because that would only give him an excuse to feel resentment towards me. If their relationship thrives or dies I would not have it said it was my fault. I firmly believe it is better to deal with what you know that another unknown at some unknown point in the future. She agreed to continue the relationship with the agreement that he may share anything that affects his life with me just not personal things that have no bearing on our the relationship works for the 3 of us.

I agree that there are many people who would not feel that the lack of physical affection lessens their relationship. For my husband and his GF they have both said that the relationship will not go any further if the sexual component is not there. Sex is a very important factor in all of our relationships. Thank you for reminding me although I did not mean to insult anyone who feels differently.

I happen to agree with you, if I had been the other woman in this situation I would have dumped him like a hot potato as soon as he told me he had an open marriage with a poly wife. That is not someone I would want to try to build a relationship with. He had countless opportunities to tell her about his marriage and simply didn't until she confronted him about why he didn't want her coming here. He did indeed take a very flippant attitude about both her and my feelings during his foray into deceit. I can only hope that he has sincerely seen the error of his ways and that this was a lack of good judgment not an on going character flaw. Only time will tell. Unlike his new love I have invested tremendous amounts of love, devotion and care into our relationship and am not willing to give up on us. So we are working on us both as a couple and as a triad. It isn't easy and I'm sure it will get harder before it ever gets easy. Hopefully at some point in the future she will take me up on my offer to be friends until then we will work with my husband as the hinge and hope that he can balance and handle having two open honest relationships.

If everyone knows and agrees on what is being shared, and agrees without coercion, then whatever agreements are made aren't unethical. If there was no threat made that it was either that or end their relationship, and she agreed freely, then that is informed consent.

As for there being no physical connection and so it being "easier" to break things off for them, that isn't necessarily the case (for example, there are many asexual people in the world--they definitely wouldn't say that their relationships would be easier to end simply because they didn't have sex). Not everyone gets attached in the same ways, and emotional bonds are, for many, far more meaningful and deep than physical ones. Clearly, I have no way of knowing if this is true for you husband and his GF or not, but I do think it's always important for us to keep in mind that not everyone feels as we do about things.

I will say that, had I been her, I'd have dumped him as soon as I found out he was married. Not because he was married, but because he was dishonest. They didn't get to the "we're in love" phase without any opportunity for him to tell her he was in an open, poly relationship. While Gravitron may be right, that he didn't tell her because he was scared it would scare her off, I would be pretty pissed that someone made the decision that I'd be in a relationship with a married mad for me, rather than letting me decide for myself. If she was going to be scared off by that knowledge, better to know that sooner rather than later. Your husband come off, to me, as awfully cavelier with everyone else's autonomy, feelings, etc. For me, that would be a deal breaker, but it's clearly not for either of you.

 

[GreenAcres]

So we are working on us both as a couple and as a triad.

Wait...did i miss something, or was this a mis-speak? I had thought you guys were working on it as a Vee, not a triad? I can't imagine even considering a triad in your position (or, hers)!

Many people in poly have really successful Vee relationship with a poly, married person (in fact, there are many on this board), so it's totally doable. It's just a choice I'd want to be able to make for myself, rather than have made for me, and someone intentionally withholding information from me would give me a pretty clear red flag. *shrugs* To each their own, of course.

It sounds like you guys are on the right track, and I hope it all works itself out.

 

[purplepeach72]

Vee with hopes of triangle/triad

I had to go back and re-read the definition of triad I should have said triangle. I didn't realize there was a big distinction between a triangle and a triad. Sorry still on a huge learning curve with this. At this point we are working as a vee with my husband as the hinge but we are all hopeful that it can progress to a triangle. She and I in particular agree that the more open and close we can become the better this will work for us all as frankly we view my husband as the weakest link when it comes to doing a good job of sharing his feelings and communicating with us both openly and honestly. He has a hard time delivering the hard truth and that isn't a good thing for either her or I. The only reason she and I are not openly communicating with each other right now seems to be her wanting to wait and see if they have the sexual chemistry they expect. It sounds like she just doesn't want to explore the what if and how we might until that major question is answered. Of course most if not all of this is coming to me from my husband so it is slightly suspect until I hear it from her but he has shared parts of her emails that she approved of and it does sound like she is hopeful we can become close friends at a minimum and possible more than that at some point in the future.

We are working hard to make this work for all of us and I greatly appreciate the help from the community here. I'm hopeful that we will all find a way to make this a happy arrangement. Thank you!

Wait...did i miss something, or was this a mis-speak? I had thought you guys were working on it as a Vee, not a triad? I can't imagine even considering a triad in your position (or, hers)!

Many people in poly have really successful Vee relationship with a poly, married person (in fact, there are many on this board), so it's totally doable. It's just a choice I'd want to be able to make for myself, rather than have made for me, and someone intentionally withholding information from me would give me a pretty clear red flag. *shrugs* To each their own, of course.

It sounds like you guys are on the right track, and I hope it all works itself out.

 

[Magdlyn]

I am not trying to tell you "how wrong you are," per se, but this is an advice board. Not everything here will be easy to take, or to your liking, but sometimes the hardest things to hear are the best help! We have had new members tell us that over and over again.

And I am no perfect poly person either. Hell, when my ex h (of then 25 years) and I first opened up, we were stupid unicorn hunters. We made lots of mistakes. And I have made more since.

Now I see you and your h are coming from a swinger's mindset, which to me implies group sex, and you even video-shared yourself having sex with other men for his pleasure!

That is so different from what is now going on here with this woman he fell for. Even though she has now agreed to your seeing her words to him (after he already did it), you won't be getting the whole story.

... if you're privy to all communication between them and either one of both of them knows it, you are unlikely to get anything honest out of it. It's unlikely she, and probably he, would share genuine communication knowing someone else was going to read every word, especially if they're on pins and needles about your reactions. I certainly wouldn't be open and forthcoming (of course, I also would never agree to it in the first place, ick!), that would just be invasive, creepy, and weird (at best).

So, by demanding this, you're just creating a false construct of safety that just pushes honest communication farther away. You'd almost certainly only be getting heavily self-edited communications, so unless you're going to also plant a secret tape recorder, you're not going to get any kind of realistic idea of what their relationship is anyway. Which, I would think, would make you even less trusting, since it's likely to be pretty obvious you're not getting the "whole story."

This is important to take in, so I just thought I'd remind you of Greenacre's wise warning.

I never made any threats to either of them about ending the relationship they started. I made it very clear to him from the start that I was not going to use my veto because that would only give him an excuse to feel resentment towards me.

So you also have, or had veto power, but wisely see the pointlessness of using it. Good.

If their relationship thrives or dies, I would not have it said it was my fault. I firmly believe it is better to deal with what you know, than another unknown at some unknown point in the future.

She agreed to continue the relationship with the agreement that he may share anything that affects his life with me, just not personal things that have no bearing on how the relationship works for the 3 of us.

OK. If there is trust, this is a common poly agreement. Usually the info needed by you would be nothing more than:

1)I am going to see my gf, on (X day). We are going to go to (date location). I will be back (time and day).

2)We are practicing safer sex

3)I will let you know if my plans change (I am not going out after all, I will be back sooner or later, etc.)

None of these pieces of information that "affect his life with you" entails any reading by you of their texts or PMs.

But if she wants him to share more, who gets to decide what is "private" and what "affects his life with you"? Does she decide? Or will he decide to tell you more than she would really want, to keep you more in the loop, as you obviously wish?

I happen to agree with you, if I had been the other woman in this situation I would have dumped him like a hot potato as soon as he told me he had an open marriage with a poly wife. That is not someone I would want to try to build a relationship with. He had countless opportunities to tell her about his marriage and simply didn't, until she confronted him about why he didn't want her coming here. He did indeed take a very flippant attitude about both her and my feelings during his foray into deceit.

Yes, I am extremely concerned about this woman's self esteem, to carry on with your husband knowing full well he deceived both her and you from the start! She must be new to polyamory and is mistakenly thinking the wife getting to read her husband's words to his new lover, as well as her words to him, is par for the course, or something. I was once involved with a guy briefly who told me that his wife was reading all our PMs, and I found that very distressing and broke it off. She didn't trust him? Then how could I?

I can only hope that he has sincerely seen the error of his ways and that this was a lack of good judgment not an on going character flaw. Only time will tell.

Now knowing that you two are coming from a swinger mindset, which is highly couple-centric, I can partly see why this is all so awkward. If he is/was purely ignorant, we can forgive him. If he is a charmer who gets women to agree to icky things against their better judgment just to get into his pants... well... that is not going to end well.

Rather than have a veto agreement, GalaGirl, one of our wisest members, suggests having an agreement ahead of time of people our partner shouldn't date. Don't date "messy people." Don't date my sister or mother, don't date one of my work colleagues, don't date a crazy person. In this case, is it really smart to go ahead and foster him dating a woman who has gone on with him knowing he cheated on you, and lied to her, and then showed her private messages to you without her knowledge, once you found out about the affair? Just how low are her standards, anyway?

Now, we also hear that you and he had an agreement not to practice any alternative lifestyle while in Italy, to protect his career. Yet, it seems there are plans in place for her to visit now?? How hypocritical is he, and what about that risk to his career he was so concerned about? Doesn't matter, now that he is hot for someone? Career be damned?

Unlike his new love I have invested tremendous amounts of love, devotion and care into our relationship and am not willing to give up on us. So we are working on us both as a couple and as a triad.

In poly parlance, a triad is a situation where there is (mostly) equal love and sex between all three partners. For now, you have an uneasy V, with your confused husband as a leaky weak hinge.

It isn't easy and I'm sure it will get harder before it ever gets easy. Hopefully at some point in the future she will take me up on my offer to be friends. Until then we will work with my husband as the hinge and hope that he can balance and handle having two open honest relationships.

Here's hoping!

 

[purplepeach72]

A clearer picture

Thank you for continuing our dialogue. I'm glad my other post gave you a clearer picture of what we're dealing with. Sometimes it is hard to remember everything that I haven't written here. My replies are below.

I am not trying to tell you "how wrong you are," per se, but this is an advice board. Not everything here will be easy to take, or to your liking, but sometimes the hardest things to hear are the best help! We have had new members tell us that over and over again.
I agree that sometimes the hardest things to hear are the best advice. As a direct result of advice from here including yours I did not use his email passwords to keep reading their emails beyond the day he invited me to. I honestly had not considered the breach of her privacy until it was pointed out here because I was working under the agreement between H & I. I have consented to them having as much privacy as possible as a direct result of the advice I received here.
And I am no perfect poly person either. Hell, when my ex h (of then 25 years) and I first opened up, we were stupid unicorn hunters. We made lots of mistakes. And I have made more since.

Now I see you and your h are coming from a swinger's mindset, which to me implies group sex, and you even video-shared yourself having sex with other men for his pleasure!

That is so different from what is now going on here with this woman he fell for. Even though she has now agreed to your seeing her words to him (after he already did it), you won't be getting the whole story.
I never got the full story to begin with. He had deleted major pieces of their conversations before I ever read them which was why I wanted to go back and find the missing links. I finally just had to accept that there are some things in regards to how this started that I won't ever know.
This is important to take in, so I just thought I'd remind you of Greenacre's wise warning.
It is indeed wise advice. I never demanded to see anything or made threats if I didn't get to see anything & I am fully aware that there is no way to know for sure anyone is being honest. There are too many ways around it. Only time & his/her actions will show that.

So you also have, or had veto power, but wisely see the pointlessness of using it. Good.

We both have veto power but also understand that using it has consequences and agree that just mentioning that we might need it should alert the other than there are serious concerns which are not being addressed. Our veto is a last ditch effort to save ourselves. We have both been in abusive relationships before and do not want to be blinded by love to the point of endangering ourselves or each other so we have left the veto for now.

OK. If there is trust, this is a common poly agreement. Usually the info needed by you would be nothing more than:

1)I am going to see my gf, on (X day). We are going to go to (date location). I will be back (time and day).

2)We are practicing safer sex

3)I will let you know if my plans change (I am not going out after all, I will be back sooner or later, etc.)

None of these pieces of information that "affect his life with you" entails any reading by you of their texts or PMs.

But if she wants him to share more, who gets to decide what is "private" and what "affects his life with you"? Does she decide? Or will he decide to tell you more than she would really want, to keep you more in the loop, as you obviously wish?
It is my understanding that she is telling him what he can share with me. Of course since she & I aren't talking to each other I don't know that for sure. The 3 items above are a bit more complicated for us since international travel is involved, we have kids, we are trying to have a child together, pets, etc that have to be taken care of in order for this relationship to happen. Essentially though what he is sharing is how she hopes the relationship will work out in the future & the times they would like to see each other if schedules will allow.


Yes, I am extremely concerned about this woman's self esteem, to carry on with your husband knowing full well he deceived both her and you from the start! She must be new to polyamory and is mistakenly thinking the wife getting to read her husband's words to his new lover, as well as her words to him, is par for the course, or something. I was once involved with a guy briefly who told me that his wife was reading all our PMs, and I found that very distressing and broke it off. She didn't trust him? Then how could I?
I agree with you about concerns for her. She is an extremely well educated, successful business woman and for the life of me I can understand how she thinks this relationship is ideal for her. However, I can't make that choice for her & I don't have any means of understanding her position right now. Perhaps in the future she & I will have a much better understanding of each other & I can come back & explain it for us all.

Now knowing that you two are coming from a swinger mindset, which is highly couple-centric, I can partly see why this is all so awkward. If he is/was purely ignorant, we can forgive him. If he is a charmer who gets women to agree to icky things against their better judgment just to get into his pants... well... that is not going to end well.
I do believe he was/is poly ignorant. All 3 of us are however I would be lying to you if I said he does not have a significant history of charming the pants off of women for his own personal enjoyment. I hope for both of our sakes that he has actually grown up in that regard in the years we have been together because as you said if he hasn't it will not end well for anyone. He is a scarily charismatic man.
Rather than have a veto agreement, GalaGirl, one of our wisest members, suggests having an agreement ahead of time of people our partner shouldn't date. Don't date "messy people." Don't date my sister or mother, don't date one of my work colleagues, don't date a crazy person. In this case, is it really smart to go ahead and foster him dating a woman who has gone on with him knowing he cheated on you, and lied to her, and then showed her private messages to you without her knowledge, once you found out about the affair? Just how low are her standards, anyway?
I understand those worries and share some of them but feel like he needs to explore this to its natural end otherwise I will be the bad guy who made him end it & I'm just not willing to do that. I have set things in place to protect myself as much as I can beyond that it is up to her & him.
Now, we also hear that you and he had an agreement not to practice any alternative lifestyle while in Italy, to protect his career. Yet, it seems there are plans in place for her to visit now?? How hypocritical is he, and what about that risk to his career he was so concerned about? Doesn't matter, now that he is hot for someone? Career be damned?
His hypocrisy appears to have few if any bounds. Yes, she is coming to visit him in a few weeks while he is away from our home here in Italy for work. I will be visiting him right after she leaves as it is our 3rd wedding anniversary. Believe it or not I actually suggested the timing to get it over & done with. I do not like living with the uncertainty of not knowing & didn't want them hiding behind this "we don't need to discuss this further until we know if we're sexually compatible" thing any longer than needed. I also did not want them waiting until he is away from home for another year & I have less contact with him than I do now. At least this way we will have time together to figure out how to make this work before he is gone again. Apparently he thinks the risks are low since she is not here & would not be visiting him very often. He of course also has said I'm free to pursue a new poly relationship if I'd like as well but I have less options than he does & no desire to add another person to this jumbled mess. Again I just have to trust that his judgment is not so skewed by NRE that it jeopardizes our livelihood. I think part of the reason he feels she is safe is because she has just as much at stake if not more so in terms of the career disaster that this would cause for her if it became widely known in the wrong circles. Frankly, I think she would suffer much more than he would because she is a woman & it would be viewed as her fault not his. More reason to worry for her.

In poly parlance, a triad is a situation where there is (mostly) equal love and sex between all three partners. For now, you have an uneasy V, with your confused husband as a leaky weak hinge.

You're right that for now we are stuck with a very uneasy V with my husband as a weak hinge but she has said in an email that she presumably approved he share with me that she hopes in the future we can all operate from a stance of loving each other equally perhaps more of a triangle situation than a triad but her description sounded very much like a triad. Not knowing if she is bi-sexual or how well versed she is in poly I'm not sure that she is fully aware of what she is fantasizing our future as but it is encouraging to know she hopes for that future. I am certainly open to having a triad with a bi-woman or quad with a couple. Only time will tell how this plays out. I am cautiously optimistic for the future. If nothing else I am confident that I am giving this relationship my very best & doing all I can to not only have a healthy relationship with my husband but also with her. All I can do is do & be my best. Thank you for understanding, for your advice & for hoping with us.

Here's hoping!

 

[Magdlyn]

Hi. Just a tech note. Since you responded to me in purple inside my quote box, I can't easily respond to your quotes, but have to reformat everything.

...I... had not considered the breach of her privacy until it was pointed out here because I was working under the agreement between H & I.

I never got the full story to begin with. He had deleted major pieces of their conversations before I ever read them...

Wow.

Well, there you go. So much for reading their messages.

...Our veto is a last ditch effort to save ourselves. We have both been in abusive relationships before and do not want to be blinded by love to the point of endangering ourselves or each other, so we have left the veto for now.

May I suggest there is some abuse going on right now?

... international travel is involved, we have kids, we are trying to have a child ...

OK, if you and he not only have kids (from former relationships) and careers on the line, but are also trying to conceive another child, AND he is attempting to make an emotional affair into a full on polyamorous agreement with you, may I suggest...

DON'T GET PREGNANT!!!! Holy mother of god, don't get pregnant right after your husband, your scarily charismatic, cheating, lying, sketchy, sexy husband, is pulling shenanigans like this!

This is sounding more and more like a classic Don Juan narcissist to me. My last bf was one. It took me 2 1/2 years to figure it out. He shares many characteristics with your guy. Sexy as all get out. Practically irresistible. They even seem spiritual and caring. They like to get you to do extra kinky things (like you video sharing your sex with others, etc)-- that stimulates them. Then they get all excited for a new and shiny once you are well hooked. Now he's got you in Italy and agreeing to not practice an alternative lifestyle, while going ahead and cheating and lying himself? Honey, think this through.

I agree with you about concerns for her. She is an extremely well educated, successful business woman and for the life of me I can't understand how she thinks this relationship is ideal for her. However, I can't make that choice for her & I don't have any means of understanding her position right now.

Right. And he chose her just because of that. She's distant geographically, he is flattering her, sexing her up thru texts, and keeping you in the dark. Narcissists prey on intelligent compassionate women. They use that to their advantage. They flatter you, give you great orgasms, watch you fall in love, and then, bam! All of a sudden you're chopped liver. And yet they want you to foster their r'ship with the new and shiny girl.

Perhaps in the future she & I will have a much better understanding of each other & I can come back & explain it for us all.

A healthy poly r'ship doesn't depend on the 2 arms of the V making everything all smooth and nice for the creep in between them. No matter how charming he is, no matter how horny you are for him, it's his responsibility to make it work, not his 2 lovers.'

A narcissist gets off on being tugged on by two people who are hot for him. It feeds his ego. He doesn't have a moral center. There is a vacuum there. He finds it entertaining to watch you two squirm. Anything "good" he says is an act and has no real hold on him. He will "forget" or rationalize away your agreements, or even deny you two ever made them, and go on ahead and do whatever he wants the next day. As you have seen.

... I would be lying to you if I said he does not have a significant history of charming the pants off of women for his own personal enjoyment. ... He is a scarily charismatic man.

Yeah. No, narcissists don't grow out of it. It's part of their nature. They can act "normal," to get you hooked, but it is always an act.

I... feel like he needs to explore this to its natural end... I have set things in place to protect myself as much as I can, beyond that it is up to her & him.

Yup. This relationship is already well launched. I was talking about in future, with... maybe another partner, since your wishes and opinions about someone too "messy" to date will not affect his choices. He knows the kind of person who is his ideal prey.

His hypocrisy appears to have few if any bounds. Yes, she is coming to visit him in a few weeks while he is away from our home here in Italy for work. I will be visiting him right after she leaves as it is our 3rd wedding anniversary.

... I actually suggested the timing to get it over & done with. I do not like living with the uncertainty of not knowing, & didn't want them hiding behind this, "We don't need to discuss this further until we know if we're sexually compatible," thing any longer than needed. I also did not want them waiting until he is away from home for another year & I have less contact with him than I do now.

... he thinks the risks are low since she is not here ... He... has said I'm free to pursue a new poly relationship..., but I have... no desire to add another person to this jumbled mess.

I also stopped pursuing other r'ships (besides my lovely gf who is my primary) when my ex's dating got so messy! He also encouraged me to date others though, because he got off on any sexual details I would tell him.

... I think part of the reason he feels she is safe is because she has just as much at stake, if not more so, in terms of the career disaster that this would cause for her, if it became widely known in the wrong circles...

And all the more reason she is the perfect victim!

You're right that for now we are stuck with a very uneasy V with my husband as a weak hinge but she has said...she hopes in the future we can all operate from a stance of loving each other equally.

And he would just love pitting you two against each other, vying for his affections, in an even closer tangle than a V, using your bisexuality (and "trust" of him and her) against you. I saw the pattern with my ex very clearly towards the end. One of his former 2 gfs was very jealous of the other. He told me this in an amused tone, as if that were part of the "fun". And when I questioned him taking up with the married poly newbie MF couple (both men were bi and involved sexually), saying, "It's so complicated!" he said, again very amused, "I like complicated." In other words, he was amused and flattered by their pain. And my pain.

He seduced my gf soon after he and I started, and pushed for sexual threesomes (which were never all that fun, though we gave it a try). Luckily she saw the pain I was in and backed off from giving him any "benefits" when he took up with the married couple.

Not knowing if she is bi-sexual or how well versed she is in poly, I'm not sure that she is fully aware of what she is fantasizing our future as...

I am sure he's fed her a line of crap about a lovely triad for the 3 of you. Whereas you just want a baby, really, don't you? Having a newborn, what do you think he'd be doing as you sat home breastfeeding and walking the floors? He'd be jetting off to Paris with new and shiny girl!

... I am certainly open to having a triad with a bi-woman or quad with a couple... I am giving this relationship my very best & doing all I can to not only have a healthy relationship with my husband but also with her.

You are wearing rose colored glasses. Why consider a triad or quad now when you're trying to conceive? You already have a kid, right? You remember how much work (and joy) an infant is, right? How do you imagine you'd handle starting a triad or quad when you're sleep deprived and on 24/7 baby duty? With an untrustworthy husband to boot? Will he be there falling in love with the new baby, and changing diapers and all the other care a dad should do? It sounds like you won't even be together, since his job takes him away for 6-12 months at a time. He will be living as a single guy while you raise his kids alone.

 

[purplepeach72]

Sorry my responding within the quote box made it harder to reply back to me. Thank you for letting me know. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to respond and reply on here. As for the rest of your reply, there's a lot there to digest. Tons of it really resonates with me, so I'm going to think about it a bit before I try to respond. Thank you for sharing all you did and for you insight. I truly appreciate it.

 

[Magdlyn]

You're welcome! If you want more info about Narcissism Disorder, check my blog here. The last few pages show how I finally figured out what went wrong with my relationship with my ex, who seemed like the Perfect Boyfriend for the first year, before it all went to shit.

http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4162&page=18

Post# 352 is where the light finally started dawning. There is a link there to a website with lots of articles about Narcissism, which is a form of sociopathy, and basically incurable.

 

[purplepeach72]

Only TIme will tell

Dear Mags,
Thank you for all your thoughtful replies and responses to this mess I'm in. I spent a considerable amount of time reading the parts of your blog you mentioned and the sites you referenced plus a few more of my own. In the end I just have to conclude that there is not nearly enough of a consistent set of symptoms to suggest the my H has a narissisistic personality disorder or is a psycho/sociopath. Does he share some similarities, yes but not nearly enough for me to truly worry. He's made some stupid mistakes and chose the easy for him path over the right for all but that doesn't mean he's mentally ill. Lots of people make terrible choices without it being a mental health problem.

As for why he chose this particular woman to start being poly with I'm not sure there was any conscious choice. We don't always chose who we fall in love with. Her decision to stay in this relationship is not my place or problem. She's a grown woman and will have to deal with her own issues. I'm only concerned with how they affect me.

In regards to us trying to have a baby, we've been trying for 3 years now and we are nearing the timeframe where we will no longer continue. Neither of us is getting any younger and we started this journey with the understanding that we would not continue past a set point in time and effort. I'm not about to put that on hold now because of this. Life goes on. Like their relationship we will see this to its natural conclusion and move on. I had an open marriage when raising my 12 yr old and I am sure I can raise another healthy well adjusted little person in this form of openness as well. I knew how much of the care and raising of a baby I would be doing alone when I made the decision to try to have a child with my H. That is just part of being married to him. His job is what it is and there's no way around that.

Perhaps I am wearing rose colored glasses but they aren't so darkly tinted that I'm unable to deal with my own reality. In the end it maybe that they are tinted a bit darker than I thought and I may get hurt again but that is always a risk with love and the more we love the more we risk. I've put my safety nets in place so that I can continue to walk my chosen path. Only time will tell if my H is willing and able to handle the duties of being a hinge involved in 2 open honest relationship. I will approach this the way I have approached most of my life. I know what I want and will work towards it to the best of my ability. I will prepare for the worst and hope for the best knowing that no matter what happens I will be ok.

Thanks again for all your support. I'll keep everyone updated as things progress. Hugs, LeeAnn

 

[Magdlyn]

OK, fair enough.

I read your new marriage contract in your blog. Seems to me you two are (at least on paper) guaranteeing each other your couple comes first. Your love is epic, the greatest love that ever existed on the planet. Anyone that comes between you will be jettisoned.

How does that gel with new gf, who hasn't even had sex with your h yet, wanting some kind of "equal love," as you said upthread? Seems her goals are in perfect opposition to your binding contract.