LizziE Learning as She Goes

[LizziE]

Ah, and the last little tidbit from this morning.

Originally, Lora was going to come either Wednesday or Friday of this week (she has those days off) to pack up some more of her things, to keep with her at the sublet. Mainly more work clothing, and the toiletries she left behind and would like with her. She wants to do this when both Jon and I are not home, which I am 100% totally fine with, as of now (not expecting her to be dumb enough to trash anything, and already taking precautions to hide and/or mark a few things that she absolutely shouldn't be getting into to make it obvious if she did get into them).

When Jon and I were talking this morning, he said that Saturday she'd actually said she really wanted the toiletries, and wanted to come by yesterday to get them. But then she started freaking out over email about it being too upsetting, so she didn't come yesterday, and now wasn't sure about coming Wednesday or Friday.

I'm willing to give this a bit of time, because abusive asshole that she is, I understand she may really need some more time before she can come back to get her stuff. Jon and I already established a hard limit on when all of her stuff MUST be gone by (end of August).

I'm still in the mental space where I think this delaying could be genuine grief, it could be a stalling tactic/part of a larger plan to get back together with Jon or it could be both. So any plans that I make, I'm making with the assumption that either could be true, and preparing accordingly, if that makes sense.

If there is still no progress in a few days, I am planning on telling Jon that I could take her toiletries and some work clothing to MY job, and leave it at the front desk, for her to come get on one of her days off. That way, she gets what she wants, and doesn't see either of us (she already knows my work address, and we have great security, so her just going to reception isn't going to be a problem or giving her a new way to "get at me" if anybody was concerned about that).

And if worse comes to worse, I have no problem throwing all her stuff into big boxes, and then having her mom & aunt come and get everything at some point before the end of August. The only thing I would insist on for that is that either Jon or me be home for that, just to make sure that anything left behind is left behind with the understanding that it will be put on the curb (and will be put on the curb immediately, so it is gone from our place).

And if it were to be me staying behind, and her mom asks who I am, I'm not going to lie about it (her mom still doesn't know, to my knowledge, that she was living with me (me being Lora's partner's other partner.)). I won't volunteer it either, but...no lying.

 

[LizziE]

So, Lora is definitely not coming for her toiletries or to do anything this week.

She "needs time".

Maybe she does. I know she's in a lot of pain.

Or maybe she's going to try to manipulate her way back in.

Or maybe both.

I wrote a letter that I'm going to give to Jon tonight. It's basically about how, no matter what happens (in other words, if they get back together), she is not able to come back and live her. She'll either need to find her own place (most likely, renting a bedroom in a multi-bedroom home, she can't afford a home on her own), or she and Jon will need to find a place.

I feel about 95% sure that they're not going to get back together. At least, not in the next year or two.

But just in case, I feel most comfortable telling Jon my thoughts directly, and making it clear that Lora can never live in this home again. If it comes to an "omg, I fucked up my housing situation, can I please please please crash just one night?", then...I dunno what I'd do. Part of me says I'd say "Fine. I'm sleeping elsewhere tonight. And I don't want to speak to you until you text me to tell me she's gone". Another part of me says "Well, that sucks for her, and it's totally HER problem. I wish her the best of luck in solving it".

Point being, I want to give Jon this letter, and talk to him about it point blank, no euphemisms, so that I know we're on the same page.

Beyond that, I'm moving her toiletries into the little bedroom tonight and last night, I started cleaning the little bedroom. Not actually cleaning her STUFF up, but cleaning up the mess of tissues, paper towels, empty boxes from perfume bottles, new make up, food, food wrappers, band aid wrappers, make up wedges, mostly empty food dishes & glasses with gross mouldering shit in them (which I soaked and washed last night)...basically, when she comes to do things, I want her to come and get her stuff together and not have to waste time cleaning.

The last few days, I've been beating myself up a bit, as I feel like I'm still "obsessing" over Lora. I'm trying to be gentle with myself and remind myself that feeling sensitive and obsessive is going to be normal until her stuff is actually out of the apartment. I'm trying to take it down a notch, but at the same time, as long as she has keys, and her stuff is here, I'm going to be tense and unable to fully let go.

I imagine it's the same for Jon, but with more sadness and less rage.

When I was cleaning up the crap in the little bedroom, the make-up wedges reminded me of a thing that happened that I wanted to share. It's sort of...a little look into how unhinged Lora can be, and how bad the dynamic got. I'll share that in the next post.

 

[LizziE]

"He ruined my haul!"

When Lora finally got a job a few months ago, one of the first things she did after her got her first paycheck was go on a bit of a spending spree. Because I'd been working a lot of long hours, the deal originally had been that first she'd be out shopping (giving Jon and me some totally alone time in our place) and then she was going to hole up in the little bedroom afterwards, so that Jon and I could have most of the evening to ourselves (As Jon and Lora had been having a lot of evenings to themselves, because I was working a lot).

The first part - having totally alone time - went about as well as it could. Lora got home earlier than I would have liked, but at least Jon and I got a couple of hours alone together.

The second part turned into a shitshow.

Lora wanted to show Jon the things that she bought on her trip, which I was totally fine with. I was in the other bedroom doing something, so I overheard the whole thing. For the most part, I wasn't actively listening, I was aware of her showing him a few new dresses...some new stockings to go with the dresses...a new pair of shoes...some new bath fizzies/bath stuff...and lastly, all the new make-up that she'd bought.

When she was showing Jon the make-up, she realized that the person checking her out had forgotten to put her make-up sponges in the bag. She. Flipped. Out. She started sobbing about how the whole day was ruined. How this ASSHOLE ruined her day, her shopping day! And how was she supposed to play with her new make up without make up sponges?!?!?!

Throughout this, Jon is staying reasonable, and speaking to her soothingly, and pointing out all the awesome stuff she got and also said "let's ask Liz is she has make up sponges", which he did. And I did. So I have him half a dozen for her.

And she took them, but she kept crying and saying "You don't understand. He ruined my haul! This was MY haul, and MY stuff that I just bought, and he totally ruined it all!"

Over make-up sponges.

That she was immediately able to get more of, so she could play with her make up.

(Now, I'm going to take a second to say that I've had a store clerk forget to put something in my bag and been totally bummed about it. I get being irritated or a little bit upset, I do. Especially when it's a pain in the ass to go back, and complain, and hopefully they believe you, it's just...really annoying and a bummer. That said, screaming and crying about it, as well as declaring that the day is totally ruined? No. Nowhere near appropriate. Not to me, anyway.)

For the second half of the evening, Jon ended up splitting his time between me and Lora. She needed support, because of the make up sponges. Which she continued to cry about off and on for the night, as well as make repeated comments about how her whole evening was ruined.

This is one of those things where, were she not Jon's other partner, had she been a friend who I moved in with, and then realized that we were just NOT going to work well together (and I have had this before), I'd sit her ass down and say "Look. This is not cool. If you need to or are unable to help but get this upset over something like this, then we are not compatible living together. So I want to ask you, is this something that you can control in the future? Because if this happens again, you're going to have to look for a new place to live"

I say "you're going to have to look for a new place to live" because I'm the primary lease holder. And I have had to do that before with friends. It sucks, but for my own need for a home that isn't going to erupt with screaming and sobbing at any minor thing, it has to be done.

So that was one of those sort of "I need a mental check. This isn't normal, right?" situations for me. Because who on earth acts like that? More, who acts like that and then remains in denial about their need for therapy? If I had anger problems like that, I would WANT therapy, because I wouldn't want to feel that angry and miserable at the drop of a hat!

 

[IndieSolo]

. . . as long as she has keys, and her stuff is here, I'm going to be tense and unable to fully let go.

Wait a minute - she still has her KEYS???!!! Not good. And you haven't changed the lock yet because...???

. . . she continued to cry about off and on for the night, as well as make repeated comments about how her whole evening was ruined.

This is one of those things where, were she not Jon's other partner, had she been a friend who I moved in with, and then realized that we were just NOT going to work well together (and I have had this before), I'd sit her ass down and say "Look. This is not cool. If you need to or are unable to help but get this upset over something like this, then we are not compatible living together. So I want to ask you, is this something that you can control in the future? Because if this happens again, you're going to have to look for a new place to live"

I think you need to learn to stop kowtowing to others and be more upfront with people about your truths. I say that because, it wouldn't have mattered to me whether she was involved with Jon or not - I would have seen no reason not to say to her what you wanted to say (the above quote). Basically, just because she was his other gf doesn't mean she was a possession of his that you couldn't touch. If she was living with you, and you're the lease-holder, she's an equal partner in the living arrangement, has an obligation to you as well as Jon, and you would have every right to speak to a roommate about not putting up with bullshit from them, no matter who they are fucking. No need to give away your power so easily to other people.

 

[LizziE]

No locks changed because we rent. She still has her keys because when she comes by to pack/get things, she doesn't want to see either of us. Jon thinks seeing her would be too painful right now, and I don't even want to look at her.

At the moment, I do trust that she won't do anything shitty while she's in the home. It's probably a stupid belief, but she's never trashed anything before, and I honestly don't think that's her style of destruction at all.

When we all moved in together, there was discussion of how Lora still had some emotional problems/personal shit she was working on. My initial take on it (based on what I told/personally observed) was "Lora is in a pretty decent place, but still has some shit that she needs to work on, and she needs a certain amount of latitude to do that". So I was willing to make a certain amount of exceptions for that.

The way I frame the way things went in my mind...things slowly went downhill. The first six months or so that we lived together, everything was pretty much good. When things started to go sour, it was slow. An incident here, a slightly ridiculous thing there.

To me, it's sort of like taking a walk in the woods and ending up hip-deep in a swamp in quicksand. Things slowly get a little mushy, and you think you can ford through, then they get a little mushier, and so on. By the time you're trapped in quicksand, and you FINALLY look back over the entire path, you realize that while every step made sense in relation to the step before it, the path ultimately trapped you in a bad place. And if you go back and retrace your steps, sometimes it can be really hard to find the place where you should have given up/backed away/etc.

Does that make sense?

For me, when Lora and Jon fought for a week solid in February, and she called him all kinds of shitty names, that was one of those moments. I reached a limit. I told Lora that she HAD to get therapy, and I wouldn't be able to live with her if she did that again. Between February and the break-up, things slowly continued to get shittier, but I hit my absolute limit in the screaming fight they had a few weeks ago, which is why I was going to tell Jon last Thursday that Lora and I couldn't live together, and basically not live at home until she moved out. But he broke up with her Thursday morning, so I ended up not needing to do that.

A lot of how things were handled poorly/too gently (on my end) was also tied up in insecurity and fear that I had that criticizing Lora would look like I was trying to get rid of her or replace her. I know that she really harped on that a lot for the first nine or so months that Jon and I were together.

One of the things that I plan on puzzling over in therapy is what I would have done differently, if I could do it all over again. Because I think I probably should have called it quits before I hit an absolute, hard, non-negotiable limit. But I'm not entirely sure where I should have called it quits, or how I could have handled things better.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you deal in this.

When she was showing Jon the make-up, she realized that the person checking her out had forgotten to put her make-up sponges in the bag. She. Flipped. Out. She started sobbing about how the whole day was ruined. How this ASSHOLE ruined her day, her shopping day! And how was she supposed to play with her new make up without make up sponges?!?!?!

Makes me think borderline waif. Was feeling left out/abandoned so she created a situation where Jon gave her supply. Then she felt better. Not really about the store clerk.

One of the things that I plan on puzzling over in therapy is what I would have done differently, if I could do it all over again.

When we all moved in together, there was discussion of how Lora still had some emotional problems/personal shit she was working on.

If it helps you any... my line in the sand is "no new people with known mental health problems." She would have fallen in that category for me. I have enough mental health people in my life. I don't need to start in with a new one. I don't think less of them or anything. I'm just at full plate. I cannot handle another close person in my life with issues.

Galagirl

 

[LizziE]

I really bought into what Jon bought into, which was that Lora is a really amazing person who just has some problems that she needs to work through.

Emailing with Lora (and Jon and Lora met online, and emailed back and forth for about six months before meeting in person), is like emailing with a totally different person in some ways. She is clearly smart, both in and out of email. But in email, she's also really together, has really interesting ideas, and is really a pleasure to just...shoot the shit or play around with ideas with, if that makes sense.

And Jon being the awesome person he is, and having such awesome family and amazing friends, I really bought into Lora being the same way - I just had to look at her the right way to see it.

In the past five years, I think I've done a fairly decent job overall, of holding firm to what I need in life, and walking away from people who obviously wanted to drag me down a shitty path. This is the first situation where I've dealt with a pre-existing metamour who had serious mental problems (and was abusive and controlling), and there was just a lot there that I didn't have experience with. And Lora doesn't present as your classic controlling/manipulative person. She's not super-charming or charismatic in person. She's shy and awkward at first. It's hard to get a good read on her.

And because Jon loved her and believed in her, I really wanted to, too.

Gah. So frustrating.

 

[YouAreHere]

At the moment, I do trust that she won't do anything shitty while she's in the home. It's probably a stupid belief, but she's never trashed anything before, and I honestly don't think that's her style of destruction at all.

I would be careful about making this assumption. Previously, it wasn't in *her* best interest to burn bridges like this: she lived there (so trashing the place would have directly impacted her day-to-day as well), and she was trying to keep her relationship with Jon going and not burn her bridges with either of you entirely.

Now, if she feels as though she has nothing left to lose, the "Scorched Earth" campaign may come out.

I'm not saying it will, but I'm saying that circumstances have changed. It would probably behoove you and Jon to protect yourselves and your stuff (and your security deposit).

 

[LizziE]

I'm sorry you deal in this.

Makes me think borderline waif. Was feeling left out/abandoned so she created a situation where Jon gave her supply. Then she felt better. Not really about the store clerk.
Galagirl

me too. I'm so glad it's on it's way towards being over.

Yes and no. I think it was in part about having Jon's attention, but I also think it was in part about having something that she thought she had taken away from her.

That wasn't the first time that she got inappropriately upset about something like that - and she would get upset even when Jon wasn't around, though if Jon wasn't around, she would stomp off to her bedroom to be upset, and if/when we were in a common room together, there would be a lot of dramatic sighing and grumbling under her breath (which I completely ignored).

Basically, any time things didn't go the way she expected, she could potentially freak out, have a panic attack, explode, or be disproportionately upset. It didn't happen *every* time, and I never did parse out what provoked it and what didn't, but it did seem to be a long-standing issue that wasn't completely tied to Jon.

I have enough mental health people in my life. I don't need to start in with a new one. I don't think less of them or anything. I'm just at full plate. I cannot handle another close person in my life with issues.

The only mental health person I have in my life is my mom. And she...comes and goes in mental difficulty, as time goes on. Overall, she's far better than she was when I was in my teens and early twenties.

I do have room in my life for someone who is...teetering, or having a rough spot. I've had friends (and lovers) who have been in that place, and stayed with them as they got help, be it therapy, self-help books, meditation, whatever (then there have been ones I walked away from, because they stopped getting help and started taking their problems out on me). So introducing her into my life as someone teetering...like I said, from what I personally saw, and what I was told, it seemed like she still had shit to work on, but was on the path to getting over it/getting better. It wasn't until after the first six months that we lived together that I slowly began to see what a total lie that was.

 

[IndieSolo]

No locks changed because we rent. She still has her keys because when she comes by to pack/get things, she doesn't want to see either of us. Jon thinks seeing her would be too painful right now, and I don't even want to look at her.

Hmm, that's strange - I rent too, but I could change the lock on my door if I want. Like what if you lock yourself out over a holiday weekend and there is no one around who has a key? Only thing a locksmith can do is break the lock and install a new one. She can make a copy of the keys before she gives them back, anyway, so changing the locks is a must!

I keep an extra lockset around from a previous apartment I lived in, and can change the cylinder anytime I want. I've had roommates from hell and have done exactly that, after putting their shit outside my door.

I just would never feel comfortable with someone having a set of keys to my place after they've moved out, especially someone who has demonstrated how nutso she is. She might not want to trash the place or steal from you, but she might want to do something really bizarre like sneaking into Jon's bed in the middle of the night. We've had people share here how exes went off the deep end after moving out and done some really stupid shit.

 

[LizziE]

Hmm, that's strange - I rent too, but I could change the lock on my door if I want. Like what if you lock yourself out over a holiday weekend and there is no one around who has a key? Only thing a locksmith can do is break the lock and install a new one. She can make a copy of the keys before she gives them back, anyway, so changing the locks is a must!

I keep an extra lockset around from a previous apartment I lived in, and can change the cylinder anytime I want. I've had roommates from hell and have done exactly that, after putting their shit outside my door.

I just would never feel comfortable with someone having a set of keys to my place after they've moved out, especially someone who has demonstrated how nutso she is. She might not want to trash the place or steal from you, but she might want to do something really bizarre like sneaking into Jon's bed in the middle of the night. We've had people share here how exes went off the deep end after moving out and done some really stupid shit.

The outer lock to our place (we have a little vestibule) is one of those special keys that you have to have a special card to get copies of, so I feel pretty certain that she wouldn't be able to copy that one (AND, it would be really expensive to change). The inner key she could copy...I would need to have a talk with the super about all that, and like I said, I'm not really sure if it would be needed, given that she can't get past the first doorway on her own.

Our super lives next door with his family (a couple of homes in a row are owned by the same person), and we've called him at 2am when the toilet started gushing water. He's basically always on-call for emergencies.

 

[LizziE]

I would be careful about making this assumption. Previously, it wasn't in *her* best interest to burn bridges like this: she lived there (so trashing the place would have directly impacted her day-to-day as well), and she was trying to keep her relationship with Jon going and not burn her bridges with either of you entirely.

Now, if she feels as though she has nothing left to lose, the "Scorched Earth" campaign may come out.

I'm not saying it will, but I'm saying that circumstances have changed. It would probably behoove you and Jon to protect yourselves and your stuff (and your security deposit).

I wonder that regularly myself (and to nycindie's point, things like her sneaking in to sleep in Jon's bed, or doing other screwy shit).

I think one thing that would stop her is the cats. Two of our cats are co-owned by her and Jon, though it seems pretty clear that she won't be able to take either of them any time soon, so maybe they'll entirely revert to Jon. But I don't think she'd do anything to hurt the cats.

I don't know. I do worry that I'm being horribly naive or dumb about this. I do think she still thinks she and Jon have a chance of getting back together in the near future, and as long as she believes that, I think her behavior will be tailored accordingly. If/when it gets to the point of her believing there is no chance...based on what I heard about previous relationships of hers that went bad, it seems she's more likely to move back with her mom and give up on life.

Now, I did hear that info from her, so she could have been lying. But given her avoidance of taking responsibility for herself, it seems in line with previous behaviors for her to just give up, go back to her mom's, and be miserable that she "almost made a life for herself", but that people just weren't there for her enough, so she couldn't do it.

 

[YouAreHere]

The outer lock to our place (we have a little vestibule) is one of those special keys that you have to have a special card to get copies of, so I feel pretty certain that she wouldn't be able to copy that one (AND, it would be really expensive to change). The inner key she could copy...I would need to have a talk with the super about all that, and like I said, I'm not really sure if it would be needed, given that she can't get past the first doorway on her own.

You'd be surprised what helpful neighbors will do, especially if they don't realize that she no longer lives there. I've seen buildings with security get compromised all the time because someone holds a door open for someone else.

It may be a good idea to talk with the super and see if HE can be there when she comes to get her stuff. Neutral 3rd party and all...

 

[LizziE]

You'd be surprised what helpful neighbors will do, especially if they don't realize that she no longer lives there. I've seen buildings with security get compromised all the time because someone holds a door open for someone else.

It may be a good idea to talk with the super and see if HE can be there when she comes to get her stuff. Neutral 3rd party and all...

Hmmm...at the least, I will definitely talk to him about how she's no longer living with us, and how she should only be around to get her stuff. He and his family are around pretty much all the time, so they'd be the first defense if she tries any funny business.

Luckily, there is no chance of security being compromised by a well-meaning (but ignorant of the risk) neighbor, since our entrance only goes to our place. But putting the super on alert is definitely a good idea.

I'm not sure if he'd be willing to be around when she gets her stuff, but I could at least ask & see what he says.

 

[IndieSolo]

The outer lock to our place (we have a little vestibule) is one of those special keys that you have to have a special card to get copies of, so I feel pretty certain that she wouldn't be able to copy that one (AND, it would be really expensive to change). The inner key she could copy...

Oh, I see. Well then, if I were you, the only other options would be for someone to bring her her stuff or drop it off at her mother's, like you mentioned somewhere, but ask that her keys be ready and waiting for you on the designated day/time OR having someone there when she comes to pick up her crap.

Ugh, sorry her presence is still so strong in your place, with such a mess she left in her room and her energy still hanging like a cloud over your heads. At least she's out. You may want to do some sort of energy-clearing thing (like burning epsom salts in all the rooms - you can Google it).

 

[YouAreHere]

I wonder that regularly myself (and to nycindie's point, things like her sneaking in to sleep in Jon's bed, or doing other screwy shit).[...]

Now, I did hear that info from her, so she could have been lying. But given her avoidance of taking responsibility for herself, it seems in line with previous behaviors for her to just give up, go back to her mom's, and be miserable that she "almost made a life for herself", but that people just weren't there for her enough, so she couldn't do it.

I recently read "The Gift of Fear" and it was an interesting view into the world of people whose behavior goes off the deep end once they hit that point of "nothing left to lose". There were some good points regarding how to interact with them, but being nice/polite when your gut is telling you otherwise is a huge red flag. What's your gut reaction? Are you comfortable having her there alone or not, or are you rationalizing this in an effort to not offend her?

Maybe she will fall back into her own patterns. Maybe she'll lash out. Regardless, what do you think is the best course of action *without* taking her feelings into account?

I do like the idea of having the Super around. He's someone she knows, someone who's ostensibly unbiased, and someone who can be told ahead of time, "This is not Lora's; please don't let her take it." However, that last bit pushes a good chunk of responsibility onto him as well. Maybe locking your stuff up in a separate room could help alleviate that?

I dunno. I'm a problem-solver, and I'm probably crossing a line here. Please take what you like and leave the rest. I do hope it goes smoothly and you and Jon are able to start healing soon.

 

[LizziE]

Oh, I see. Well then, if I were you, the only other options would be for someone to bring her her stuff or drop it off at her mother's, like you mentioned somewhere, but ask that her keys be ready and waiting for you on the designated day/time OR having someone there when she comes to pick up her crap.

Ugh, sorry her presence is still so strong in your place, with such a mess she left in her room and her energy still hanging like a cloud over your heads. At least she's out. You may want to do some sort of energy-clearing thing (like burning epsom salts in all the rooms - you can Google it).

Yeah. We haven't worked all those details out yet (which drives me slightly nuts), but if say, she came and packed up what was staying with her, and then her mom came and separately picked up the rest of her stuff to take back to her mom's place, then I would insist someone be there (and be willing to be that person), because I want to make sure EVERYTHING of hers is out and that anything that ISN'T out she either needs to be gotten within 24 hours OR it's curbed. Nothing is going to be "accidentally" left behind to engineer a meeting later.

On the subject of keys, she could leave them with the super OR I could ask a friend who lives nearby and works from home if he could take them. I could also ask if said friend could be around while she packs up, but that would probably be a lot harder for him.

I am burning sage out the ass once she's totally gone. Also scattering salt, sweeping it up with a new broom, and offering a prayer to the universe. Currently, I'm already rearranging & doing a sort of mindful cleaning - as I clean a room, I say to myself that cleaning this room is cleaning away the last of Lora's crumbs (in the kitchen), the last of Lora's hair (in the bathroom), the last specs of her physical presence (in the rest of the rooms). That really helps.

When the lease is up early next year, there is a VERY high chance (a near certainty) that Jon and I will move a town over into a new place. I think that is going to feel best for both of us - to get away from the bad memories.

 

[LizziE]

I recently read "The Gift of Fear" and it was an interesting view into the world of people whose behavior goes off the deep end once they hit that point of "nothing left to lose". There were some good points regarding how to interact with them, but being nice/polite when your gut is telling you otherwise is a huge red flag. What's your gut reaction? Are you comfortable having her there alone or not, or are you rationalizing this in an effort to not offend her?

Maybe she will fall back into her own patterns. Maybe she'll lash out. Regardless, what do you think is the best course of action *without* taking her feelings into account?

I do like the idea of having the Super around. He's someone she knows, someone who's ostensibly unbiased, and someone who can be told ahead of time, "This is not Lora's; please don't let her take it." However, that last bit pushes a good chunk of responsibility onto him as well. Maybe locking your stuff up in a separate room could help alleviate that?

I dunno. I'm a problem-solver, and I'm probably crossing a line here. Please take what you like and leave the rest. I do hope it goes smoothly and you and Jon are able to start healing soon.

No it's good. Part of why I'm here is to read what other people say and think. Suggestions are always welcome.

I've heard that The Gift of Fear is really good. I'm going to put that at the top of my reading list.

When I think about Lora coming herself to pack up her stuff, what I feel mainly is relief. I actually don't get any internal sense of being afraid of her harming anything. Whether or not my gut is wrong about that remains to be seen. But my first thoughts are "Good, I don't want her and Jon to be alone together" followed by "And I don't want to see her face either".

So without taking her feelings into account, just mine, I don't want to see her. I don't want Jon to see her. That is what I care about the most.

(though Jon's choice to see her or not is his choice, of course. I'm happy that right now, he doesn't want to see her)

If I further completely didn't take her feelings into account, the main thing I'd change now is to say to her "You need to get your ass here this week and take the things that you want with you. Anything you don't take is getting thrown into big boxes. You can figure out what is where and what you need when you get where ever you're going". But that Jon wouldn't be comfortable with that, and I also wouldn't be 100% comfortable with that. If Lora is going to behavior "reasonably" (which remains to be seen) and not drag out getting her stuff as long as possible to still have a way in, then I'd be fine with her coming in alone to sort between what she's keeping and what goes back with her mom.

I think part of my feelings stem from the fact that she has (thus far) not been even slightly physically violent towards Jon. Admittedly, that's as far as I know, but knowing Jon, I think if she ever physically harmed him, it would be like "scorched-earth" level over.

Right now, my plan is two-fold - I'm still going to give Jon that letter I wrote about how no matter what happens between him and Lora, she cannot move back in (I didn't give it to him last night, because he was having a REALLY bad day, missing her, feeling awful, crying a lot).

The other part of the plan is that if no progress is made on her coming to get things by mid-next week (and by "get things" I mean the toiletries and things that she said she really wants to have with her now), then I'm going to bring that up again, and say that I really feel like I need a rough idea of if/when that's happening.

For the rest of her stuff, it seems that we won't know until the end of July (at the latest) if she's going back to her mom's, or staying in her area. I am really tempted to start packing her stuff into boxes sometime around the end of the month, if she hasn't come and done it herself. Also, so far, we haven't moved things of Lora's that are in the rest of the apartment into the little bedroom. I want to give Jon a bit more time before I broach that subject, since we're barely a week in now.

Ideally (for me), in a few weeks, Jon will be ready to talk about that, and I'll start moving things of Lora's from the rest of the home into the little bedroom. Some things, I don't know if they are hers or Jon's, so he'll need to do those. But I can handle a bunch of things myself.

 

[PinkPig]

I agree with everyone else. I think your best course of action is to assume that she will likely behave in some unhinged manner. Then, if she behaves rationally, like a mature adult, you'll be pleasantly surprised. But, if she chooses "scorched earth" approach, as YouAreHere said, you'll be prepared.

My partner, Blue, was dating a woman with borderline when we started dating. When Blue broke it off with her, she chose 'scorched earth' approach. Her goal was to completely assassinate his character. It didn't work. People saw through her crazy and she finally gave up...just not before making his life hellish for a few months.

If Lora were my roommate? I wouldn't want her in the apartment alone. Irrational people do not behave rationally or predictably, in my experience.

 

[LizziE]

There are two issues with assuming the scorched earth tactic from Lora.

One is, to YouAreHere's point, I genuinely don't feel in my gut that she's destroy any property or trash anything. I definitely don't think she'd do so while her belongings are here, and it sounds pretty certain at this point that her mom is going to have to come and get the balance of her possessions after Lora takes the ones that she wants with her. So that means she has little opportunity to trash things, without risking her own things.

If it were up to me, by myself, I might assume a scorched earth tactic, even if I truly didn't believe it would happen, just to be safe. But I'm not 100% sure on that - especially when my gut isn't giving me any warnings there.

The other is, in order to prepare for that, Jon both needs to be in on it and willing to prepare for it/treat Lora like she would do that. Given what it took for him to realize that she was hurting him too much to stay in a relationship with her, I'm really not sure what the chances of convincing him of that are.

It's probably still too soon to bring this up to Jon at any rate, and I still have really mixed feelings about doing so. That said, I understand why anybody reading what I've written would be saying "don't risk it". If I were an outside reader, I'd be saying the same thing.

I'm really not sure what to do here.