LizziE Learning as She Goes
- Thread starter LizziE
- Start date
Sadly no. It's one of those little square ones that's like a small, um, what is the word? Room for when you come in from the cold/heat, to limit the air exchange between the home and the outside. The three of us coming home from the grocery store with groceries and all fitting in it with the doors closed would have been a challenge (We usually let the outer door open while we were opening the inner one, since it would be such a tight squeeze).
IndieSolo
Active member
IMHO:
You gather up all her things ASAP, put them in boxes, and schedule a day and time for her to pick them up and return her keys. This needs to happen sooner rather than later. Despite the fact that neither of you wants to be there or see her when she does this, one of you will have to brave it. Let her know in no uncertain terms that if she does not come at the agreed-upon time, you will drop everything off at her mother's or leave them at the curb (whatever you think you are willing to do). Meet her at the door with the boxes. If she wants to come in, you tell her, "That really is everything, Lora. You have to go now. Leave me a forwarding address, in case we find anything else of yours, and we will send it to you. Good luck with everything." And then shut the door.
This is someone who abused Jon and your good nature for a very long time. End the drama by getting her shit outta there.
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Not trying to totally kill the whole idea, but this is a person who has zero savings, and doesn't have a driver's license, so is wholly dependent on public transit, renting movers, or her mom (who is a medical professional and works odd/rotating hours/days).
Jon told me recently that he actually gave her the money for the sublet she is taking this month, because she didn't have enough to get a sublet. He also paid for the hotel room she had the day she left (I'm not sure if she's paying him back for that). Previously, she has paid everything back that he's lent her, so I think he was assuming under the reasoning that she wouldn't stop now.
As she's temporarily in a sublet for July, if we forced her to hire movers to move her stuff out now, she would not have the money for August rent OR to hire the movers that she'd need to move her stuff in August.
None of which should be our problems, I know. But Jon isn't going to see if that way.
Incidentally, this money stuff I mentioned is part of why I really don't believe she's going to be able to hack it on her own. I think that come the end of July, she's going to go home to her mom.
What I'm getting from what you're saying is "get her the hell out of there as soon as possible", which I agree with 100%.
I just don't know how to do it, especially in a way that won't potentially deeply upset Jon, who still feels incredibly guilty for "giving up" and breaking up with her. Yesterday was a really bad day, where he kept talking about how upset he was at himself for not being able to do things better, and me telling him that it wasn't up to HIM, it was up to HER to do things better. Which he at least verbally agrees with (and I think does truly agree with), but I can see him being anguished that he told her he could do it, and he thought he could do it, and then he couldn't do it.
But, to your point, he and I are going to have to have a talk sooner rather than later about what to do with her things and/or about getting the keys back, at the very least.
Jon told me recently that he actually gave her the money for the sublet she is taking this month, because she didn't have enough to get a sublet. He also paid for the hotel room she had the day she left (I'm not sure if she's paying him back for that). Previously, she has paid everything back that he's lent her, so I think he was assuming under the reasoning that she wouldn't stop now.
As she's temporarily in a sublet for July, if we forced her to hire movers to move her stuff out now, she would not have the money for August rent OR to hire the movers that she'd need to move her stuff in August.
None of which should be our problems, I know. But Jon isn't going to see if that way.
Incidentally, this money stuff I mentioned is part of why I really don't believe she's going to be able to hack it on her own. I think that come the end of July, she's going to go home to her mom.
What I'm getting from what you're saying is "get her the hell out of there as soon as possible", which I agree with 100%.
I just don't know how to do it, especially in a way that won't potentially deeply upset Jon, who still feels incredibly guilty for "giving up" and breaking up with her. Yesterday was a really bad day, where he kept talking about how upset he was at himself for not being able to do things better, and me telling him that it wasn't up to HIM, it was up to HER to do things better. Which he at least verbally agrees with (and I think does truly agree with), but I can see him being anguished that he told her he could do it, and he thought he could do it, and then he couldn't do it.
But, to your point, he and I are going to have to have a talk sooner rather than later about what to do with her things and/or about getting the keys back, at the very least.
You know, I also don't really emotionally understand this whole "It hurts, so let's wait until it hurts less to deal with it" thing that both Jon and Lora are doing.
Not that I don't know other people who do that, or I think it's necessarily...a character flaw or something, it's just the exact opposite of how I operate. It's going to hurt? Then let's do it now and get it the hell over with.
When I went in to see one of my specialists a few weeks ago, it turns out that I'd made significant progress and she wanted me to try another thing to see if it would help. The thing that would help was a painful procedure that would really suck. She said "I really think you need to do this. But I understand that it's going to be really stressful and hard on you, so you think it over and let me know when you're ready". I said "Are you busy now? Because let's do it now. I'm never going to BE ready or WANT to do this, so let's do it now, while I'm still kind of in shock and it hasn't totally sunk in that I need to do it".
So we did, and it hurt like a motherfucker, and I cried a lot, but then it was over way faster than if I'd waited and "thought it over" (ha), and it has helped a lot.
When people want to do the opposite of what I want to do, in a case like that, I kind of don't know what to do. It's so far outside of the way I do things that...how long do you "give people time" for? Do they really think that it's going to hurt significantly less in a few weeks? Does it ever really significantly hurt less in a few weeks?
Not that I don't know other people who do that, or I think it's necessarily...a character flaw or something, it's just the exact opposite of how I operate. It's going to hurt? Then let's do it now and get it the hell over with.
When I went in to see one of my specialists a few weeks ago, it turns out that I'd made significant progress and she wanted me to try another thing to see if it would help. The thing that would help was a painful procedure that would really suck. She said "I really think you need to do this. But I understand that it's going to be really stressful and hard on you, so you think it over and let me know when you're ready". I said "Are you busy now? Because let's do it now. I'm never going to BE ready or WANT to do this, so let's do it now, while I'm still kind of in shock and it hasn't totally sunk in that I need to do it".
So we did, and it hurt like a motherfucker, and I cried a lot, but then it was over way faster than if I'd waited and "thought it over" (ha), and it has helped a lot.
When people want to do the opposite of what I want to do, in a case like that, I kind of don't know what to do. It's so far outside of the way I do things that...how long do you "give people time" for? Do they really think that it's going to hurt significantly less in a few weeks? Does it ever really significantly hurt less in a few weeks?
Ok, for the record, I understand waiting a few days. That I get. Giving a little bit of time, enough to gather some energy or something.
But weeks? That I don't get. I don't get how Jon has no idea when Lora is going to come get her toiletries and that isn't driving him nuts. It's driving me nuts.
But weeks? That I don't get. I don't get how Jon has no idea when Lora is going to come get her toiletries and that isn't driving him nuts. It's driving me nuts.
IndieSolo
Active member
Yeah, I would rather get it over with right away myself. So since she's not really your problem anymore, I'd drop everything off at her mother's - like tomorrow! Let her family deal with her. Clean the apartment up, get rid of all traces of her. I think that will be the best thing you can do for Jon. Why should he still be reminded of her all over the place?
I don't understand why he feels so bad for her when he was the one she was taking advantage of. He was her meal ticket and a place to stay. Doesn't sound like much love lost.
I don't understand why he feels so bad for her when he was the one she was taking advantage of. He was her meal ticket and a place to stay. Doesn't sound like much love lost.
playfulgirl
Member
I'm a problem solver type but as toxic as she sounds I'd want her gone whatever the cost. Heck I'd probably run up my charge card, rent a storage unit for her for a couple months and take her stuff there and mail her the key with a polite note and end contact.
Of course this presupposes having resources to do this and whether it's worth the money to you to be done with a toxic person.
I hope you can find a workable solution and find a way to breathe again in your own home.
Of course this presupposes having resources to do this and whether it's worth the money to you to be done with a toxic person.
I hope you can find a workable solution and find a way to breathe again in your own home.
PinkPig
Well-known member
I like Playful girl's idea. If the storage unit is near Lora's sublet, it would be more convenient for her to pick things up as she has time/space. And, it would be more convenient for her mom if she's the one who will ultimately move Lora's stuff.
As to the waiting to do painful stuff, I have an avoidant nature. For me, it stems from my fears: fear of failure, fear of rejection, fear of change, etc, fear of pain. I try to power through things and not avoid now but it is uncomfortable and takes a lot of practice (and still isn't my natural inclination.)
As to the waiting to do painful stuff, I have an avoidant nature. For me, it stems from my fears: fear of failure, fear of rejection, fear of change, etc, fear of pain. I try to power through things and not avoid now but it is uncomfortable and takes a lot of practice (and still isn't my natural inclination.)
Could tell him you plan to move the things to the little room. Ask him what day next week would be ok with him for you to start packing...does Friday work for him? Because you want to respect his feelings, but at the same time take care of your own feelings. Right now seeing the stuff all around upsets you. Then at least you can shut the door til the present deadline of “end of august.”
If August deadline arrives and stuff is still here -- already packed. Get a friend to help drive it all to her Mom's house and drop off. Drag, PITA, but GONE and you pick up key. And you don't have to look at her. Just her mom. Doesn't get more convenient than delivery service for Mom. (You might even talk to the Mom and if she's available sooner, drop it off sooner!)
As for people who put things off forever... some people are avoidant in conflict resolution style. I find it easiest to suggest any date I want. Because in their avoidant style, they will usually agree right away to just NOT be having this convo.
So I get to move on.
If they bitch about it later to me, I point out they were free to suggest another date rather than agree to a date they do not like.
Galagirl
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The biggest problem with me doing anything like that is that I'm currently physically unable to do anything even moderately strenuous. When I say that I'm cleaning things up, it's a really slow process that involves a lot of resting and careful movement. It's worth it, because it makes me feel better, and I can actually incorporate some of my PT movements into certain types of cleaning, but it's not an easy "I get home and breeze through a bunch of cleaning in an hour" kind of thing.
If Jon and I were to (theoretically) take ALL of Lora's stuff to her mom's, it would involve two car trips, each being 3-4 hours (one way), which I also probably can't physically handle right now (that long of a car trip would increase at least an hour, so I can get out and stretch and walk a bit and limber up my body. I've had some big breakthroughs lately, but right now, we're still treating my body carefully, outside of my PT visits and the exercise set that I've been given to do most days). So it would take us pretty much an entire weekend, with Jon doing all of the work himself.
Likewise, my current PT, emotional therapy, prescriptions and doctor visit costs are running me between $500-$600 a month. The only way I haven't gone into debt yet is by cutting down on a lot of other costs.
So physically and monetarily, there isn't a great way for me to get rid of Lora's stuff right now. And going in to debt myself to get her out...just not something I'm willing to do.
None of that takes Jon's feelings into consideration, and he would be 100% set against dropping all of Lora's stuff off somewhere else, for a number of reasons.
On that note, he and I talked last night. I also started reading The Gift of Fear last night, which helped me articulate a lot of things that I hadn't yet parsed through - thank you for the gift of suggesting The Gift of Fear, YouAreHere.
My current gut feelings on Lora after what I've read of The Gift of Fear and going with our gut (based on past behaviors I've personally witnessed, things that Jon has said, and things that Lora has said, and the overall 'vibe' I get from her):
- She's not poly. She lied to Jon about being poly and continues to do so, because it was more important to her to be with him than be true to herself.
- She is far more likely to hurt and/or abuse herself and then attempt to emotionally harm Jon by trying to make it his fault than she is to physically harm him (or me).
- The reason that I have been at times terrified of her and at other times completely unaffected by her is because she has absolutely no ability to emotionally harm me, by coming at me/trying to get to me, but she does have the ability to harm me by harming Jon. Any time I've felt terrorized by her, it's directly because of her treatment of Jon.
- The other reason I've been terrified of her is because I felt that not liking her, or taking a hard line of her abuse of Jon would cause him to love me less, because I was saying negative things about Lora (even if they were true). So for me, trying to live with/get along with Lora was something I felt like I HAD to do, to keep Jon's love (this was something I felt without asking him if it was remotely true).
- The main ways that I think she would try to hurt Jon while in our home (if she went for a scorched earth tactic) would be to either kill herself, or fake a suicide attempt in the home. I don't believe her to be suicidal. I'd say I'm 90% sure that she wouldn't fake a suicide attempt either. I'm about 90% certain that she is aware that not only would a faked attempt not get Jon back, we'd also call 911 and push really hard for them to commit her. I'm entirely sure she does not want to be committed.
So I talked to Jon about the third and fourth of those last night, as well as how much I dislike having her things all over our home. I talked about how I didn't want to harm or hijack his grieving process, but that I also needed certain things (like no longer looking at her things) to help with mine.
My fear that Jon would love me less if I didn't love/get along with/figure out a way to live with Lora was unfounded. The only thing that would negatively affect Jon would be if I was attempting to manipulate him by picking at his relationship with Lora - which he knows I'd never do.
I talked about how a lot of this was hard too, because he and Lora were together before he and I started dating. I worried that any negative commentary on Lora's mental state would be viewed as me trying to get rid of her. He assured me that HE would not have felt that way, as he got to know me; he knows I wouldn't do that. However, Lora definitely would have viewed it that way, and used that as an excuse for why she wanted nothing to do with me/something to try to put a wedge between me and Jon.
I did, for the record, talk about concerns that I had with him over some of Lora's behavior, even early on. But I trod very carefully, and always outwardly accepted Jon's explanation that Lora had really low self-esteem and because of her mental issues, felt hyper-sensitive about negative commentary. Truly, I believe that much of Lora's behavior stems from her actually being monogamous at heart, and on top of that, she's abusive and controlling because of her mental problems. She would much rather use abuse to control Jon into doing what she wanted to keep herself mentally comfortable than do the work to get herself in a better place mentally.
What was settled last night was that Jon still wasn't ready to deal too much with the question of Lora's things. However, I have carte blanche to put anything and everything of hers into the little bedroom, as well as start packing things up, to make it easier to get her out. I am going to start to do so, a little each night, slowly and carefully. Just getting her things out of the rest of our home is going to make a HUGE difference to me, emotionally.
Jon wants more time - a week or two - before he feels up to pressing Lora to figure out what she's keeping with her and what goes to her mom's. He did reiterate again that she is trying to stay in our area, and he wants to make that easier for her, if it happens. Basically, he feels really strongly about giving her July to figure her shit out. I am not thrilled by that, but I do see the reasonableness to it, and as long as I can put all her things in the little bedroom and keep the door shut (we have kept it shut since she left), I can live with that.
If Jon and I were to (theoretically) take ALL of Lora's stuff to her mom's, it would involve two car trips, each being 3-4 hours (one way), which I also probably can't physically handle right now (that long of a car trip would increase at least an hour, so I can get out and stretch and walk a bit and limber up my body. I've had some big breakthroughs lately, but right now, we're still treating my body carefully, outside of my PT visits and the exercise set that I've been given to do most days). So it would take us pretty much an entire weekend, with Jon doing all of the work himself.
Likewise, my current PT, emotional therapy, prescriptions and doctor visit costs are running me between $500-$600 a month. The only way I haven't gone into debt yet is by cutting down on a lot of other costs.
So physically and monetarily, there isn't a great way for me to get rid of Lora's stuff right now. And going in to debt myself to get her out...just not something I'm willing to do.
None of that takes Jon's feelings into consideration, and he would be 100% set against dropping all of Lora's stuff off somewhere else, for a number of reasons.
On that note, he and I talked last night. I also started reading The Gift of Fear last night, which helped me articulate a lot of things that I hadn't yet parsed through - thank you for the gift of suggesting The Gift of Fear, YouAreHere.
My current gut feelings on Lora after what I've read of The Gift of Fear and going with our gut (based on past behaviors I've personally witnessed, things that Jon has said, and things that Lora has said, and the overall 'vibe' I get from her):
- She's not poly. She lied to Jon about being poly and continues to do so, because it was more important to her to be with him than be true to herself.
- She is far more likely to hurt and/or abuse herself and then attempt to emotionally harm Jon by trying to make it his fault than she is to physically harm him (or me).
- The reason that I have been at times terrified of her and at other times completely unaffected by her is because she has absolutely no ability to emotionally harm me, by coming at me/trying to get to me, but she does have the ability to harm me by harming Jon. Any time I've felt terrorized by her, it's directly because of her treatment of Jon.
- The other reason I've been terrified of her is because I felt that not liking her, or taking a hard line of her abuse of Jon would cause him to love me less, because I was saying negative things about Lora (even if they were true). So for me, trying to live with/get along with Lora was something I felt like I HAD to do, to keep Jon's love (this was something I felt without asking him if it was remotely true).
- The main ways that I think she would try to hurt Jon while in our home (if she went for a scorched earth tactic) would be to either kill herself, or fake a suicide attempt in the home. I don't believe her to be suicidal. I'd say I'm 90% sure that she wouldn't fake a suicide attempt either. I'm about 90% certain that she is aware that not only would a faked attempt not get Jon back, we'd also call 911 and push really hard for them to commit her. I'm entirely sure she does not want to be committed.
So I talked to Jon about the third and fourth of those last night, as well as how much I dislike having her things all over our home. I talked about how I didn't want to harm or hijack his grieving process, but that I also needed certain things (like no longer looking at her things) to help with mine.
My fear that Jon would love me less if I didn't love/get along with/figure out a way to live with Lora was unfounded. The only thing that would negatively affect Jon would be if I was attempting to manipulate him by picking at his relationship with Lora - which he knows I'd never do.
I talked about how a lot of this was hard too, because he and Lora were together before he and I started dating. I worried that any negative commentary on Lora's mental state would be viewed as me trying to get rid of her. He assured me that HE would not have felt that way, as he got to know me; he knows I wouldn't do that. However, Lora definitely would have viewed it that way, and used that as an excuse for why she wanted nothing to do with me/something to try to put a wedge between me and Jon.
I did, for the record, talk about concerns that I had with him over some of Lora's behavior, even early on. But I trod very carefully, and always outwardly accepted Jon's explanation that Lora had really low self-esteem and because of her mental issues, felt hyper-sensitive about negative commentary. Truly, I believe that much of Lora's behavior stems from her actually being monogamous at heart, and on top of that, she's abusive and controlling because of her mental problems. She would much rather use abuse to control Jon into doing what she wanted to keep herself mentally comfortable than do the work to get herself in a better place mentally.
What was settled last night was that Jon still wasn't ready to deal too much with the question of Lora's things. However, I have carte blanche to put anything and everything of hers into the little bedroom, as well as start packing things up, to make it easier to get her out. I am going to start to do so, a little each night, slowly and carefully. Just getting her things out of the rest of our home is going to make a HUGE difference to me, emotionally.
Jon wants more time - a week or two - before he feels up to pressing Lora to figure out what she's keeping with her and what goes to her mom's. He did reiterate again that she is trying to stay in our area, and he wants to make that easier for her, if it happens. Basically, he feels really strongly about giving her July to figure her shit out. I am not thrilled by that, but I do see the reasonableness to it, and as long as I can put all her things in the little bedroom and keep the door shut (we have kept it shut since she left), I can live with that.
Amen to that! It will take me awhile to get all her things in the little bedroom, but having that to do feels really good to me.
I also realized something that I might not have articulated as well as I wanted in my last post. Lora's stock-in-trade has always been emotional manipulation. And I have heard her repeatedly do bad things and try to blame them on Jon ("I'm not taking care of myself because of you"). So in terms of ways that she'd try to control him still, I think it would all come from that place, either staging something self-harming in our home (which I really, truly don't think she'd do, because she is aware of the direness of the consequences to her), or emails/texts that really try to pull at his heartstrings, by hammering into him how hard things are, because of what he did. And how he could stop it at any time, if he just took her back.
I suspect she's already tried this, because last night, when I broached the idea of them getting back together any time in the near future, his eyes got very flinty as he calmly said no, absolutely not. As much as he is in pain over the break-up, I think she might have already tried to manipulate him to a point where he was able to identify it as manipulation and is furious about it.
And maybe some of his pain is coming from thinking that she *wasn't* that kind of person, and IS turning out to be that kind of person.
I think I mentioned this before, but Jon and Lora had a very passionate relationship online for six months before meeting in person. Based on the very compelling emails she wrote me, and based on the first six months of us living together being pretty good, I wouldn't be surprised if the emails sucked him in first, and then their first six months of actually being together in person were probably really good, which would set him up with this belief that the Lora he knew for his first year of knowing her is the real Lora, the ones he's been trying to get back every since. However, I think the Lora that came out later is the realer Lora; she does have all those fine points inside her that first attracted him to her, I'm sure. But they a smaller part of the larger more abusive, controlling whole of her.
All that doesn't even get into the part where - if she really is monogamous at heart - then hurting herself by pretending to be poly could have done a fair amount of damage and driving herself crazy, on top of whatever mental issues she already has.
YouAreHere
Well-known member
I'm glad you and Jon had a good conversation and that things are stepping forward. I'm also glad you're speaking up about your concerns and fears. Step by step, inch by inch... I second the "hang in there!"
(Glad the book is helpful as well!)
(Glad the book is helpful as well!)
I did a very bad thing
https://learningmanyloves.wordpress.com/2015/07/17/i-did-a-very-bad-thing/
It's still only a few hours after I did it.
I still feel better that my feelings were validated that terrible at violating Jon's trust.
Which doesn't mean I feel good. I just feel less sick than I did a few hours ago.
I just want her out of my home. I nearly don't care if they stay together. So long as they don't do it in my home.
https://learningmanyloves.wordpress.com/2015/07/17/i-did-a-very-bad-thing/
It's still only a few hours after I did it.
I still feel better that my feelings were validated that terrible at violating Jon's trust.
Which doesn't mean I feel good. I just feel less sick than I did a few hours ago.
I just want her out of my home. I nearly don't care if they stay together. So long as they don't do it in my home.
There's a thing I haven't spoken about here or anywhere else.
There's a part in The Gift of Fear that I really resonate with.
There are two brothers. One is a highly functioning, extremely successful person. He is asked by his brother "How did you become the person you are?". His response: "Because dad was a drunk".
He asks his alcoholic deadbeat brother the same thing "How did you become the person you are?". His brother's response "Because dad was a drunk".
Jon and I have both had enough bad things happen to us that we have a touch of psychopathy. We can turn our feelings off. Sometimes. Not all the time. But there are some situations where we can make that choice. And we do.
The last time I turned off my feelings was for a friend. His cat was dying of cancer. She was suffering. He was suffering. He loved that cat more than nearly any other person. He loved her so much that he couldn't let her go. So I let me feelings go, so that I could calmly, and rationally explain to him that her cries meant she was in pain; he had to let her go.
We were awake, the three of us, for nearly thirty-six hours. Until he could let her go.
There was a cost. My friend was also my ex-boyfriend. And I lived with that cat for nearly five years. I loved her dearly. But I wanted to let her go because she was so thin that her ribs were sticking out of her body. She had not eaten in two days. She hadn't had water in nearly a day. She couldn't lay down without crying.
I turned my feelings off (or you could say I made them of lesser importance) so that I could understand all that and communicate to my friend that necessity of letting her go.
I didn't turn my feelings off with Jon. I couldn't. This may sound stupid and histrionic, but if his body were dying, it would be easier.
Maybe I should have. I feel guilty. Until I think about what my snooping gave me, which was validation that if there is a schism between my gut and what Jon tells me, I should go with my gut.
That doesn't excuse what I did. All it tells me is that maybe living with the aftermath will be worth it. I don't know.
I am so tired.
All I want is Lora's stuff gone. I want to have a Lora-free home. I want to rebuild the safe, wonderful home that I had before we lived together.
What Jon does with Lora is his choice. All I can do is keep me safe.
And deal with the consequences if the path I took to keeping me safe means that I betrayed Jon's trust.
There's a part in The Gift of Fear that I really resonate with.
There are two brothers. One is a highly functioning, extremely successful person. He is asked by his brother "How did you become the person you are?". His response: "Because dad was a drunk".
He asks his alcoholic deadbeat brother the same thing "How did you become the person you are?". His brother's response "Because dad was a drunk".
Jon and I have both had enough bad things happen to us that we have a touch of psychopathy. We can turn our feelings off. Sometimes. Not all the time. But there are some situations where we can make that choice. And we do.
The last time I turned off my feelings was for a friend. His cat was dying of cancer. She was suffering. He was suffering. He loved that cat more than nearly any other person. He loved her so much that he couldn't let her go. So I let me feelings go, so that I could calmly, and rationally explain to him that her cries meant she was in pain; he had to let her go.
We were awake, the three of us, for nearly thirty-six hours. Until he could let her go.
There was a cost. My friend was also my ex-boyfriend. And I lived with that cat for nearly five years. I loved her dearly. But I wanted to let her go because she was so thin that her ribs were sticking out of her body. She had not eaten in two days. She hadn't had water in nearly a day. She couldn't lay down without crying.
I turned my feelings off (or you could say I made them of lesser importance) so that I could understand all that and communicate to my friend that necessity of letting her go.
I didn't turn my feelings off with Jon. I couldn't. This may sound stupid and histrionic, but if his body were dying, it would be easier.
Maybe I should have. I feel guilty. Until I think about what my snooping gave me, which was validation that if there is a schism between my gut and what Jon tells me, I should go with my gut.
That doesn't excuse what I did. All it tells me is that maybe living with the aftermath will be worth it. I don't know.
I am so tired.
All I want is Lora's stuff gone. I want to have a Lora-free home. I want to rebuild the safe, wonderful home that I had before we lived together.
What Jon does with Lora is his choice. All I can do is keep me safe.
And deal with the consequences if the path I took to keeping me safe means that I betrayed Jon's trust.
PinkPig
Well-known member
Fwiw, I agree with Issi. I think it will hurt Jon less for you to be honest now than if he finds out accidentally. And, I think if you approach it like Issi said, focusing on what you did wrong, with no comment on what you found, I think it has the potential to grow his trust in you. Don't blame shift, don't get into a discussion on his relationship with Lora, just explain and apologize. Also, given that he left it open, he may have wanted you to know. That's just my opinion, take it or leave it 
Also, in light if the new info, you may want to consider taking actions to protect yourself in case Lora chooses 'scorch the earth' revenge.
I'm sorry things still aren't resolved
Also, in light if the new info, you may want to consider taking actions to protect yourself in case Lora chooses 'scorch the earth' revenge.
I'm sorry things still aren't resolved
Also, given that he left it open, he may have wanted you to know. That's just my opinion, take it or leave it
I've been wondering that myself. Which wouldn't make it OK, but Jon's a pretty tidy person, when it comes to things like that. Normally, if he uses my computer, he logs off after he uses his email. This is the first time that he hasn't.
And, FTR, I'd forgotten, but I actually know his password. I had a talk with myself last night about how technically, I could have snooped at any time, and I could still snoop at any time. I realized that I really don't want to. All I wanted to know was if I was crazy for my suspicions. And now I know I'm not. Which is what I mean by saying that I feel cleaner and better.
Yeah. I already put away (or took to work, where I could lock up) anything that I REALLY cared about. Just in case. I'm not sure if there's anything else I want to do in the home. I don't think I need to protect my clothing, or anything like that. I'm not sure.
I still believe that if Lora does choose to go 'scorched earth', it's going to be a verbal and emotional attack on Jon.
I'm sorry things still aren't resolved
me too.
Though Jon and I did have a talk about that last night.
I opened the little bedroom door to air it out, as it's been closed since the break-up. Opening the door let the cats in. Letting the cats in unleashed a load of gnats that they found while playing around. Turns out, under some papers on Lora's desk, there were a ton of edamame pods that she'd just discarded all over her desk as she ate them. The bowl they were in when they were whole was also still there, with a bit of mouldering water at the bottom. I totally missed this the first time; I'd thought the only thing on that part of her desk was papers.
So I started cleaning that up. Jon called to say good-night, and that's when we talked. I told him what I found on Lora's desk, and that I decided I needed to give the entire room a good cleaning (and good thing I did; Lora's PC sort of made a triangle under her desk against a corner of the room. The PC box (it's a big, old-school one) hid another giant pile of dirty wrappers, banana peels (more gnats), and other garbage).
I also told Jon that I had a lot of concerns, because as of now, there have been at least four instances where Lora was supposed to come, clean up, pack up things she wanted with her now, and winnow through her stuff to decide what would stay here with her, and what would go back to her mom's. She hasn't come at all. Given that she was supposed to move all the things she wants to keep with her out by the end of this month, and her mom was supposed to pick up the rest early next month, this is really worrisome.
Additionally, I told him that I was really scared that there was going to be a huge blow up when she moved her stuff out. I told him how worried I was that she was going to say a lot of awful things to him and really hurt him. And there's not much I can do about that.
Jon said that he didn't think she would, but he didn't now for sure, and if it happens, it happens. Which is true.
He also said that he thought that I should totally clean up the room. He's going to tell Lora about the grossness. We agreed on some additional things that I could do in the room, to get it more ready for her to move out. And he said that if she hasn't contacted him with a schedule for packing up and moving her stuff out by the time is current job is over (next Friday), he's going to contact her and tell her that we really need that in the next few days.
So that's is good news, at least. And when he gets home...I don't know. Part of me wants to tell him now. Just to get it over with. Part of me doesn't want to tell him at all.
I would tell him, and I don't see a problem with telling him right away (by email or the like), though others might disagree. In the meantime, I would stress to him that Lora and her stuff need to go, and to please not lead her on about any pipe dream of moving back in.
In fact I am inclined to raise the stakes: Tell Jon (and Lora, directly?) that if Lora's stuff isn't gone by a certain date (you choose the date), that you will throw away whatever's left. Rent a dumpster if you have to. Attach that weighty consequence to Lora's failure to get her stuff. Attach that weighty consequence to Jon's failure to alert Lora to reality.
I suppose that's not an option, due to your physical condition and other reasons. But I'd start really nagging Jon (and Lora, directly?) about the need for Lora to get her stuff, and the finality of her eviction from your home. Add weight to your words if there's any way you can.
Can the police help you or at least advise you? That might be something to consider.
In fact I am inclined to raise the stakes: Tell Jon (and Lora, directly?) that if Lora's stuff isn't gone by a certain date (you choose the date), that you will throw away whatever's left. Rent a dumpster if you have to. Attach that weighty consequence to Lora's failure to get her stuff. Attach that weighty consequence to Jon's failure to alert Lora to reality.
I suppose that's not an option, due to your physical condition and other reasons. But I'd start really nagging Jon (and Lora, directly?) about the need for Lora to get her stuff, and the finality of her eviction from your home. Add weight to your words if there's any way you can.
Can the police help you or at least advise you? That might be something to consider.
I am now very on the fence about telling him. I don't know. I keep going between how it's the only truly right thing to do, and how...I don't want to, because I'm being cowardly.
As for Lora and her stuff, there is a hard date at the end of August (24th) that it's going to be out by, or it gets curbed. Jon is clear on that.
One of the things I learned this weekend (Jon and I talked about something I was irate about, I'll get to that in a minute) is that the reason Lora doesn't know about the hard date is because she keeps saying that she'll have her stuff out by the beginning of August. So in Jon's mind, as Lora keeps saying "Beginning of August" and that's way earlier than "End of August", it didn't seem necessary to tell her.
My response to that was along the lines of "You do what you think is best, but anything left after August 24th is going out on the street". That's when he proposed this: He's at a job out of the city until this Friday. If he hasn't gotten a time schedule from Lora by this Friday about when her things are going out, he's going to tell her that he needs one, and let her know that everything MUST be out by the end of August.
We'll see how that goes.
The thing I was irate about. While cleaning under her desk, I came across three large (about the width of two of my fingers together, and two-thirds the height of two of my fingers) pieces of broken glass. Among the wrappers, dirty cotton balls, paper towels, etc. Three LARGE pieces of broken glass.
Any broken glass on the floor in a home with four cats is totally unacceptable. But pieces this big...if Lora broke a glass, surely to fuck she realized she didn't get it all? Maybe, if the area under your desk is so messy that you can't FIND all the broken class, you should clean it up?
So I flipped out a little bit. Because between the bugs, the mouldering dishes and now, THE FUCKING BROKEN GLASS, I have no desire to live with Lora well above and beyond the whole "You're an abusive dickhead" thing.
Lora and I had previously had several conversations about broken glass, because she broke glasses in the kitchen, and didn't clean it up well. A few large-ish pieces were visible under the oven when I was standing on the other side of the kitchen. Which also means that I cat can find it and be like "oooooh, shiny".
And I'm sure she'll do what she always does, if she finds out about the broken glass, which is spend some time sobbing about what a terrible person she is, and apologizing a million times, but once she's flogged herself enough for feeling guilty, it'll be back to "same old, same old".
As for Lora and her stuff, there is a hard date at the end of August (24th) that it's going to be out by, or it gets curbed. Jon is clear on that.
One of the things I learned this weekend (Jon and I talked about something I was irate about, I'll get to that in a minute) is that the reason Lora doesn't know about the hard date is because she keeps saying that she'll have her stuff out by the beginning of August. So in Jon's mind, as Lora keeps saying "Beginning of August" and that's way earlier than "End of August", it didn't seem necessary to tell her.
My response to that was along the lines of "You do what you think is best, but anything left after August 24th is going out on the street". That's when he proposed this: He's at a job out of the city until this Friday. If he hasn't gotten a time schedule from Lora by this Friday about when her things are going out, he's going to tell her that he needs one, and let her know that everything MUST be out by the end of August.
We'll see how that goes.
The thing I was irate about. While cleaning under her desk, I came across three large (about the width of two of my fingers together, and two-thirds the height of two of my fingers) pieces of broken glass. Among the wrappers, dirty cotton balls, paper towels, etc. Three LARGE pieces of broken glass.
Any broken glass on the floor in a home with four cats is totally unacceptable. But pieces this big...if Lora broke a glass, surely to fuck she realized she didn't get it all? Maybe, if the area under your desk is so messy that you can't FIND all the broken class, you should clean it up?
So I flipped out a little bit. Because between the bugs, the mouldering dishes and now, THE FUCKING BROKEN GLASS, I have no desire to live with Lora well above and beyond the whole "You're an abusive dickhead" thing.
Lora and I had previously had several conversations about broken glass, because she broke glasses in the kitchen, and didn't clean it up well. A few large-ish pieces were visible under the oven when I was standing on the other side of the kitchen. Which also means that I cat can find it and be like "oooooh, shiny".
And I'm sure she'll do what she always does, if she finds out about the broken glass, which is spend some time sobbing about what a terrible person she is, and apologizing a million times, but once she's flogged herself enough for feeling guilty, it'll be back to "same old, same old".