DADT, poly style

River

River

Well-known member
I'm "seeing" a man who is involved in a DADT situation with his wife.

DON’T ASK, DON’T TELL (DADT): A relationship structure in which a person who is partnered is permitted to have additional sexual or romantic relationships on the condition that his or her partner does not know anything about those additional relationships and does not meet any of those other people. Commentary: Many people in the polyamorous community frown on don’t ask, don’t tell relationships, and choose not to become involved in such relationships. There are many dangers in such relationships, including the idea that a person who claims to be involved in such a relationship may simply be cheating (as the relationship often provides no mechanism by which that person’s partner may be contacted to confirm that the relationship permits other relationships); the fact that many people choose DADT relationships as a way of avoiding and not dealing with emotional issues such as jealousy; and the fact that DADT relationships are built on a foundation of lack of communication within the existing relationship. -- https://www.morethantwo.com/polyglossary.html
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I strongly suspect he's being honest with me about their DADT agreement, as he shows all of the signs of a man of integrity and honesty. But, being merely
human, I know I cannot be certain -- and there is some worry and fear involved, though not a lot.

I don't particularly like the DADT aspect at all. But I DO like the man. It's too soon to say I love him -- or even that it would be okay (or even desirable) by him if I did.

(See: River's blog for further details in context.)

I suppose I want a conversation on "DADT" in the poly lingo / context.

I really like his kisses and cuddles, his warm friendship.... I don't know if he's able or willing to capital L Love a man while maintaining his current form of marriage with his wife. I know so damn little, really. I like him. This I know. :p
 
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I wouldn't trust a dont ask, dont tell sceme. It is not only easy to potentionally lie about, but also to misunderstand. What exactly has she given him permission to do? Many times it is halfway cheating in that she knows and dissaproves but is afraid to loose him so she bargins that at least he be descreet about it.
 
Norwegianpoly said:
I wouldn't trust a dont ask, dont tell scene. It is not only easy to potentionally lie about, but also to misunderstand. What exactly has she given him permission to do? Many times it is halfway cheating in that she knows and dissaproves but is afraid to loose him so she bargins that at least he be descreet about it.
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It does seem -- ultimatey -- to come down to whether or not I trust him, believe him.... I can't ask her a thing! And this does bug me. But doesn't everyone, always, have to decide that their partner/s is/are being honest -- or not? When I was involved in my first (presumably monogamous) relationship I was lied to, cheated on.... So it could happen to any of us, regardless of the DADT or "monogamamy," etc.
 
As I said, it is not only a matter of him lying or not. If she is on board with DADT, is she still aware of exactly what she is not "told"? How can she be aware if they are not open about what is going on? Does she think he is flirting, kissing, having one night stands, having regular partners, committed romantic partners?
 
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My husband (from whom I'm now separated) would only agree to me seeing other men if it was DADT. It was a compromise to be sure: he wanted me to be monogamous, I wanted to be free to love others.

It worked ok for casual relationships, but DADT basically assured my relationships would never become anything serious. After all, my lovers were never to come inside of my house, or attend any event where hubby was present or any of hubby's friends. I couldn't be affectionate with my lover in public, lest it get back to my husband, and I could only really see them if my husband was at work. Basically, it limited to me to sex and casual friendship.

Your man is probably telling the truth, but it does mean that limitations will be put on his behavior with you, and you will have to be ok with being discrete and keeping things fairly casual.
 
I'm DADT with Hubby.

In saying that, he knows I kiss and cuddle my (male) *friends* and I'll tell him if I've received, say, a particularly poignant message from C, or been to visit N at work (both of these were in the last couple of weeks). He's heard me talk about all these people for as long as he's known me. It's a little trickier with M who reappeared in my life after an absence. Hubby knows about M, but right now, he knows very little as I don't know if M is going to stay in my life or not. I do not gush to Hubby about the times I've experienced NRE with M. We've only spent a few hours together all up now, and only in situations where there is very limited intimacy. We talk about taking it further but right now I'm not entirely sure it will even happen (distance, schedules, etc.). Since Hubby and I are LDR right now, he's not dealing with me walking around with my head in the clouds on those occasions where the NRE strikes.

NB, NRE is a term that is in common use here, so I employ it, but I feel it's a little inadequate to describe what I do feel. It is like a simultaneous activation of all the key energy focus points (chakras) which, besides being very pleasurable, makes it easier to "grasp" the subtleties of each of these and thus get to know (and learn conscious control of) them all a little better. NRE as a meditation tool <s>

ka kite ano
Evie
 
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I have such gratitude to all of you who are engaging in this conversation with me! My Dearest, K (who knows and accepts that I am capable of having several who are Dearest) and I were just sharing about this conversation here. He's such (damn, I'm lucky!) Darling Sweetie that he totally empathized with me as I explained my difficulty and challenge here. "Suppose I fall in love and have a fully
"in-love" experience with R, and R were (for example) to be in the hospital by injury or illness... I'd not have visitation rights! I'd not even be able to call and ask her about him! (not without breaking an agreement).... Only in an emergency of this sort would our relationship even be a matter in which I could be forthright, open and honest.:(
 
All of the standard poly reservations about DADT seem to be around fears that the person could be lying and that the meta could be emotionally less than capable or whatever. As you rightly point out, River, lying and less than adult emotional capacity can exist in all types of relationships. I choose to live in a world where I trust my instincts about people and I don't require proof of honesty in any relationship. My instincts are all I need and they have served me extraordinarily well for six decades and counting, so DADT is totally kosher with me. I think that any agreement about an open relationship is a beautiful thing and that the two people have their reasons for coming to the arrangement that they have. I have absolutely no need for or interest in policing anyone else's relationship.

And I completely disagree that a DADT precludes falling in love and deep emotional commitment. DADT encompasses a wide range of possibilities, it doesn't necessarily mean that the additional relationships have to be limited in commitment. If people are mature, generous of spirit and loving, anything is possible.
 
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River said:
I have such gratitude to all of you who are engaging in this conversation with me! My Dearest, K (who knows and accepts that I am capable of having several who are Dearest) and I were just sharing about this conversation here. He's such (damn, I'm lucky!) Darling Sweetie that he totally empathized with me as I explained my difficulty and challenge here. "Suppose I fall in love and have a fully
"in-love" experience with R, and R were (for example) to be in the hospital by injury or illness... I'd not have visitation rights! I'd not even be able to call and ask her about him! (not without breaking an agreement).... Only in an emergency of this sort would our relationship even be a matter in which I could be forthright, open and honest.:(
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I can only imagine DADT is very frustrating for those of us who hate hiding things and are lousy liars. For those who do it as a compromise to monogamy it must feel like living on a razors edge.
 
graviton said:
I can only imagine DADT is very frustrating for those of us who hate hiding things and are lousy liars. For those who do it as a compromise to monogamy it must feel like living on a razors edge.
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DADT isn't so very different than the closeted life that many (most?) poly people are already living. There's not a huge difference between "hiding things" when talking to a spouse and when talking to friends & family members. Most poly people are living some form of DADT in that they're not out & proud about their poly relationships and are essentinally "hiding things" all of the time.
 
FallenAngelina said:
DADT isn't so very different than the closeted life that many (most?) poly people are already living. There's not a huge difference between "hiding things" when talking to a spouse and when talking to friends & family members. Most poly people are living some form of DADT in that they're not out & proud about their poly relationships and are essentinally "hiding things" all of the time.
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It's funny that you mention this, Fallen. This is actually why I took my Okc profile down. For various reasons, I'm not at place where I can be open about being poly. For me, that doesn't feel loving, authentic, or fair to new people I choose to date. I may change my mind, but for now, until I can be open, I don't plan to actively pursue another relationship. However, in the event something happens organically, I may feel differently, idk?

As for DADT, I wouldn't assume there's potential dishonesty just because the relationship is DADT. My concern would just be that the DADT would put certain limitations on the relationship just as not being open about poly can. Not that I think there's anything wrong with choosing to conduct relationships that way. ..it's just not how I wish to conduct mine :)
 
DADT is much more limiting and difficult to maintain for people who live in small communities. If one lives in a large city, it's easier to be openly affectionate with someone, or to incorporate them into one's social circle, without their partner seeing/knowing.
 
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FallenAngelina said:
And I completely disagree that a DADT precludes falling in love and deep emotional commitment. DADT encompasses a wide range of possibilities, it doesn't necessarily mean that the additional relationships have to be limited in commitment. If people are mature, generous of spirit and loving, anything is possible.
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I'm not taking any "position" on it, but rather just responding in feeling and spontaneity here.: These words come to me as a blessing and a comfort, and I am certain they come from a place of lovingkindness, which is a joy. Thanks!
 
FallenAngelina said:
DADT isn't so very different than the closeted life that many (most?) poly people are already living. There's not a huge difference between "hiding things" when talking to a spouse and when talking to friends & family members. Most poly people are living some form of DADT in that they're not out & proud about their poly relationships and are essentinally "hiding things" all of the time.
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Bravo! What a beautiful and generous insight! Thank you!:)
 
River said:
Bravo! What a beautiful and generous insight! Thank you!:)
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It's my pleasure and I'm glad for the thread because it's helped me understand why I'm bugged by the way the poly world tends to turn up its nose at DADT. "I would never do that!" etc., when in practice, most poly people are surgically selective about how much to "tell" just about everyone in our lives. What's up with all of the judgement about how much a metamore "should" want to hear about? A mutually agreed upon open relationship is a mutually agreed upon open relationship.
 
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FallenAngelina said:
What's up with all of the judgement about how much a metamore "should" want to hear about? A mutually agreed upon open relationship is a mutually agreed upon open relationship.
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Yes. And I appreciate your perspective on this.

Often, when we give things names or labels, we tend to imagine that all things by that name or label are alike -- and treat them as such. When in reality, not all things called (e.g.) DADT agreements are identical.

Part of what I'm going through in considering the fact of R in my life is "Is it okay if we fall in love?" I mean, is part of R's' agreement with his wife that R is within the agreement if he's basically just messing around on the side, so long as he doesn't fall in love?" I don't yet have an answer to this question. And I plan to directly ask him about that soonish.

I strongly suspect that it is either explicitly or implicitly not okay for R to be in love with anyone other than his wife. And I also suspect that R would be a fully polyamorous person were he to be married to a woman who could embrace him as such -- and that he probably could be in love with a man as well as with his wife.

I have only a moment more to "talk" here, so I'll have to cover other aspects of my challenge later. But I must say that I've been feeling uncomfortable because my "gut" tells me that R is not really free to love whomever he would like to. And I think I could probably fall in love with him if we were to go on kissing, cuddling, having intimate conversations, etc....

This is the sort of experience which adds to my distaste for the culture's messaging (and conditioning) which pretty much expects and demands monogamy of everyone. Simply put, I know only a half of a handful of poly folks who live near me. I feel like a fish out of water. :(

In happier news, I have a kind of date with a bi, poly gal!:)
 
Hubby and I have fully open communication about whatever--or whoever--else is going on in my life. S2 and I have the same, even though at the moment we aren't "in a relationship."

But as Karen said... that doesn't mean I get to be open about everything. Hubby doesn't want his family or anyone connected to them to know anything about this. S2's ex-wife and her girlfriend know, and Spikes has a vague idea, but S2 is afraid of anyone else in his or his ex's family finding out, or of his employer, anyone connected to the boys' schools, etc.

So basically, even if S2 and I were still in a relationship, I wouldn't be able to be physically affectionate with him in public, other than a hug or a squeeze of the hand, which is what I would do with any friend or even friendly acquaintance. I can't be open on social media. S2 has gone with us to one of Country's school events (at Country's request) and to something for Alt (at Alt's request), but was presented as a "friend of the family."

DADT between *partners* might be symptomatic of deeper problems in the relationship or of dishonesty. Or it might just be about fear and/or jealousy. But DADT in *general* exists for a lot of us. There are probably people who know me who suspect that "my musician friend" is more than a friend, or who wonder why I went camping with him last weekend or whatever... but they don't ask, and I don't tell. And Hubby, while he knows the situation, doesn't want to hear specifics about anything I do with S2, regardless of whether it's sexual (which isn't happening at the moment anyway), musical, or going for a long drive in the country, so there's some DADT involved there as well.

Then again, Hubby doesn't want to hear specifics about much of anything in my life, so it isn't only about poly...but that's another story for another time.
 
I fear we are confusing the issue. There is DADT between the members of a couple with an open relationship. Then there is "coming out" to people not involved in the relationship.

Shall we keep this discussion to the former?
 
I had a date once with a guy who had a DADT thing going with his wife. It creeped me out and I didn't see him again.

I am sorry, River, that your options are so limited you are crushing on a guy who has that arrangement, which is causing you stress and discomfort.
 
Magdlyn said:
I fear we are confusing the issue. There is DADT between the members of a couple with an open relationship. Then there is "coming out" to people not involved in the relationship.

Shall we keep this discussion to the former?
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The comparison is not meant to confuse, but pertinent in response to the statement that "DADT is very frustrating for those of us who hate hiding things and are lousy liars." For many poly people, "hiding things" is integral to our daily life and does not mean that someone is a liar. We each choose how much and with whom to share details of our personal life, based on all sorts of factors and nobody else is in a position to sit in judgement of that. Now, deciding that a DADT arrangement is not agreeable for one's own life is certainly one's prerogative, but to cast all DADTers as potential liars, cheaters and emotional cripples is an all too common prejudice in the poly world.
 
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