Where from here? Let's talk.

kdt26417 said:
Hi Xftmfz,

Beyond wearing her down til she agrees to a compromise (assuming even that would work), I have to say I can't think of any method you could employ to soften your wife's stance on polyamory. It's like you said; even if she gives you permission, she only cancels it before you can act on it. So what can you do?

There's certainly nothing stopping you from continuing to talk to your wife about poly, I'm just saying I don't know what you should tell her about it. Perhaps you could ask her to read a book with you? "Opening Up: a guide to creating and sustaining open relationships," by Tristan Taormino.

Would that help?
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
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I have been focusing on books that just encourage opening up communication and abstaining from judgements. "nonviolent communication" and "I need your love, is that true?".

I tried going over books like "the ethical slut" with her and it more turned in to arguments with her accusing me of trying to manipulate her...i don't want to manipulate her in the sense that I give her no option except the one I want... I just want to free her from what ever it is that is keeping her locked down.

Maybe I'm locked into my own views too much at this point, but to me I see: we already have sex with people outside our marriage, and it's not a problem. We already have friends, who she has emotional connections with, whom we have sex with, and it's not a problem.

What's the difference between what I want, and what I'm getting? Distance (as in physical distance measured in feet or miles) and autonomy (as in my having the privilege of choosing someone and not having to factor in her attraction to their partner).

We, by definition, have not been monogamous for 4 years.
 
I've heard a lot of good things about NVC. I've just started hearing about "I Need Your Love," so I don't know much about it.

So, your problem is convincing her to make the leap to poly from swinging?
 
It seems to me lots of people flip over from swinging to polyamory.

But many people are so conditioned that "twue wuv" should only be between one's fully committed live-in partner or spouse.

As long as she is sharing the experience with you, she can hide from labels such as swinger or polyamorist. If once one of you get "too independent" she feels compelled to reject it. There must be some fear here that she handles by trying to control things, and control you.

Perhaps she fears losing you if you start to date or have sex with others independently. That is a very common fear.

But I tend to think swingers are somewhat living in a fool's paradise, trying to deny emotional connections with their sex partners, and always trying to keep the married couples privelege to the forefront. Sex release oxytocin, which is bonding between partners. It makes keeping one's emotional distance very difficult.
 
kdt26417 said:
I've heard a lot of good things about NVC. I've just started hearing about "I Need Your Love," so I don't know much about it.

So, your problem is convincing her to make the leap to poly from swinging?
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Problem is, I don't necessarily want her to become anything. Maybe her version of all this fits her. I want to continue to meet her needs, I just want solutions for how that can happen while mine get met. She has a long list of things I shouldn't do. I Want compersion. Joy from each other finding joy in other things. I can't have that while she literally depends on my behavior to define our marriage.
 
nycindie said:
I know this is going to sound shocking and unethical, but yours is the kind of situation where I wouldn't blame you for taking a mistress in secret.
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I think about that ALL the time. It would be one thing if sex with another person meant to her I was unfaithful, etc. - but we ALREADY DO THAT. It's like, I feel like a little kid who's allowed to watch R rated movies, but only the one's my mommy will let me watch. It becomes more tempting with these thoughts. It's a win win. I get needs met. She doesn't know about it, her needs stay met.

Problem is: I suck at lying. I don't have a means for meeting others who would be accepting up the situation as it actually is, and don't wish to lie. Therfore, I consider it too risky and refrain.
 
Re (from Xftmfz):
"She has a long list of things I shouldn't do."
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Do you want her to shorten that list?

Re:
"I want compersion. Joy from each other finding joy in other things. I can't have that while she literally depends on my behavior to define our marriage."
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How can you tell she depends on your behavior to define the marriage?
 
I am in a similar situation. Hubby and I have been non-monogamous for years. It has mostly consisted of sex, swinging with other couples and playing with a few single girls or guys. I had a bf for about a year at one point. But, most people were mono and this lead to some ruined friendships so we decided to just be mono. Then, about three years ago, we met a couple that wanted to date us and introduced us to the word and the concept of polyamory. They instinctively knew that we were "like them" (her words). So we tried that. Long story short, it didn't work out between my hubby and her. She called the whole thing off but her hubby said he had to have me and he and I kept seeing each other for over a year. My hubby would say he was ok with it, and then get pissed randomly over my seeing him. Even in the case of the first bf, he would say he was fine with it but get upset randomly over it. For the last two years I have been telling him I'm poly. It really resonates with me and I told him I would want that type of relationship even if it wasn't with bf. He would avoid the conversation saying we'd talk about it when and if it happens.

Now, I've broken up with bf and have met a guy I'd like to see. He and his wife are open. I started talking to him just to ask questions about how they make it work and stuff. But, it turns out we have A LOT in common and I'd really like to explore a relationship with him. But, hubby is resistant. He says that he'd be ok dating a couple (which we could try dating this guy and his wife but my hubby has a crazy work schedule which makes time very short!) OR a girl. When I asked him, hypothetically, if we started seeing a couple and he was busy and she was busy, would he be ok with me hanging out with the guy alone. He says he can't know that until we get there. So, I feel like he's being very rigid. I think he has some fears he can't articulate. I've tried to talk to him about it, but we end up in a downward spiral that doesn't lead to resolution. So, I don't know if I should continue negotiations...or just say I'm poly, you're obviously not, maybe we should go our separate ways. He doesn't want a divorce, but he avoids negotiation. I honestly feel like it's an issue of control. He wants to control me. He could have freedom to pursue a relationship too, but he just doesn't want to. I don't think he wants to put the effort into it. And I can't make a relationship happen for him! I propose that I see this guy and as he (hubby) has time, I can introduce him to her and see where that goes. But he says I'm trying to not involve him. It's not that at all! I just don't see why X and Y are ok but Z is not...especially when we've done Z in the past?! I keep hoping there is some conversation we can have that will lead to an agreement. But, so far it's just frustrations that make me think it's time to walk away. I guess I hope someone will have suggestions that I can bring to him that will help us bridge the gap.
 
For what it's worth, here's what I would suggest.

First off, you need to ask yourself if your desired outcome will benefit your marriage. Not just you, personally, but your relationship with your wife.

Second, ask yourself if the ends really justify the means. When she agrees only in an effort to appease you, she's not really agreeing. Yes doesn't always mean yes. Especially, if she feels that you're going to hang it over her head & make her feel guilty until she eventually caves. I'm sorry, but that's not showing love towards her in my opinion.

I know that the ultimatum seems hard lined. But really, in cases such as these, there often is no other way. Those with fundamental beliefs, are extremely unlikely to ever change their minds. As a monogamist myself, I stand as case in point.

A few months back, my wife came out to me as poly. My reaction was more of an "over my dead body" kind of response. I tried for a couple of weeks to learn to be ok with it on an emotional level, but ultimately came to the conclusion that even that's a bridge too far. I gave her the choice. we remain monogamous & closed in both the physical AND emotional aspects, or we draw up the divorce papers & you can explore whatever your heart desires.

Now, those familiar with my back story know there are some drama filled details that don't need to be brought up here. This is your thread, and all I'm trying to do is put some perspective from the side of a partner who is uncomfortable with poly. But my wife did find herself having to understand that getting me to agree under duress was not getting me to agree at all. What she did - and I suggest you do as well - was choose the path that made she/you happier.

Playing the "try it, maybe you'll like it" angle is EXTREMELY risky. Sure. There's a chance that she might... But from what you've said about her tendencies, there's a far more likely chance that it'll cause destruction within your marriage. Possibly even irreparably so. You can't un-ring that bell. If you're that adamant on hoping that she'll "come around", then I'd strongly suggest you table the discussion for at least 6 months. Work on you & her. Once things feel stable between you (from both of your perspectives), then ease into it. But don't drag it out. If then, she's still not willing to entertain it, then back off of it. You said yourself that you're not unhappy with your marriage. Don't risk ruining that in pursuit of something that you don't know will benefit your marriage.
 
kdt26417 said:
Re (from Xftmfz):


Do you want her to shorten that list?

Re:


How can you tell she depends on your behavior to define the marriage?
Click to expand...

I'd like the list to be abolished. But yeah, shortened would be nice.

Because of the uncanny ability for our marriage to cruise into bliss when I just shut up about me.
 
Is it really bliss for you (as well as for her) if your voice has been silenced?
 
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CTF said:
For what it's worth, here's what I would suggest.

First off, you need to ask yourself if your desired outcome will benefit your marriage. Not just you, personally, but your relationship with your wife.

Second, ask yourself if the ends really justify the means. When she agrees only in an effort to appease you, she's not really agreeing. Yes doesn't always mean yes. Especially, if she feels that you're going to hang it over her head & make her feel guilty until she eventually caves. I'm sorry, but that's not showing love towards her in my opinion.

I know that the ultimatum seems hard lined. But really, in cases such as these, there often is no other way. Those with fundamental beliefs, are extremely unlikely to ever change their minds. As a monogamist myself, I stand as case in point.

A few months back, my wife came out to me as poly. My reaction was more of an "over my dead body" kind of response. I tried for a couple of weeks to learn to be ok with it on an emotional level, but ultimately came to the conclusion that even that's a bridge too far. I gave her the choice. we remain monogamous & closed in both the physical AND emotional aspects, or we draw up the divorce papers & you can explore whatever your heart desires.

Now, those familiar with my back story know there are some drama filled details that don't need to be brought up here. This is your thread, and all I'm trying to do is put some perspective from the side of a partner who is uncomfortable with poly. But my wife did find herself having to understand that getting me to agree under duress was not getting me to agree at all. What she did - and I suggest you do as well - was choose the path that made she/you happier.

Playing the "try it, maybe you'll like it" angle is EXTREMELY risky. Sure. There's a chance that she might... But from what you've said about her tendencies, there's a far more likely chance that it'll cause destruction within your marriage. Possibly even irreparably so. You can't un-ring that bell. If you're that adamant on hoping that she'll "come around", then I'd strongly suggest you table the discussion for at least 6 months. Work on you & her. Once things feel stable between you (from both of your perspectives), then ease into it. But don't drag it out. If then, she's still not willing to entertain it, then back off of it. You said yourself that you're not unhappy with your marriage. Don't risk ruining that in pursuit of something that you don't know will benefit your marriage.
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I have thought about all that you have said. I've also given up on it for long periods of time, and found myself feeling incomplete, depressed, unfulfilled, in general.

"Benefit" in your scenario was defined by your ultimatum. I don't know if that's how you feel about it or not, but that's my evaluation of what you said. There's so many more variables to this other than benefit though.

I'm pretty sure that 2 weeks is waaay less than the amount of time it took for me to develop the beliefs I now have that free my mind from the possessive nature of monogamy. Again, I don't know what you did or didn't do in order to give the concept benefit of the doubt. But, in the case of my wife, it's EASIER for her to refuse to read any materials on the matter, refuse to contact others in similar situations, etc. And hang on to that "I just can't change" attitude. It also helps that the majority of mainstream society appears to (at least from my viewpoint) think of swingers and other alternative lifestyles as something ranked below where they judge homosexuals. Why the hell we all have to be the SAME I will never understand.

And you're right: yes isn't always yes. I was very aware of that. I didn't act on it. Thought about it a lot. Nonetheless, I did know she wasn't ready.

I'm not asking her to "Try" anything but to let go of whatever beliefs she has about what my extracurricular activities mean to our current relationship. I think you, like my wife, have a false sense of security where you think as long as you prohibit sexual activity of your partner, you're protecting your marriage. You're not. Marriage isn't sex. It's a commitment. Not a commitment NOT to fuck other people (to me) but a commitment to love the person you're marrying. People fuck up all the time in marriage. They steal, lie, they're mean, they let each other down, all things which would be breaches of the typical marital vows, but you fuck someone else and all of a sudden they feel literally obligated to throw away their entire marriage. Seems a bit over the top.

So, my question to you is: do you think it was you or your wife who cared the most about the marriage? You seemed the most willing to just can it because you couldn't have what you wanted...
 
kdt26417 said:
Is it really bliss for you (as well as for her) if your voice has been silenced?
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Oh, it sucks for me. For her? Well she doesn't act like she does when I'm wanting to open up dialogue on the concept, so yeah, I'd say she's in bliss.
 
So what's your plan? It seems obvious to me that you're very upset about your wife's attitude. She has a chokehold on you. Do you just want to keep waiting and hoping she'll change? Are you hoping that continuing to talk to her will have an effect? Does *she* seem to be willing to change? What's your plan?
 
kdt26417 said:
So what's your plan? It seems obvious to me that you're very upset about your wife's attitude. She has a chokehold on you. Do you just want to keep waiting and hoping she'll change? Are you hoping that continuing to talk to her will have an effect? Does *she* seem to be willing to change? What's your plan?
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Tried to have a talk last night. Didn't work. She unloaded a bunch of judgements on me right out of the gate, and I reacted... Even thought I had sat there all day prepping myself to not react and even knowing what she was going to say. So... Today, I requested we try an email thread just between the two of us. To give her the ability to take her time and get out what she needs to get out. Actually, a little bit of forward progress I'd say. She's gotten out some of how she feels. Much more confusion than disagreement. She honestly doesn't know what makes sex in her presence different than sex not in her presence so different. She also doesn't seem to know why her fears hold so much power. So, trying to just talk about those things one at a time. I eventually hope to find the next baby step for her. The tiniest thing to push her on. It'll work. Or it won't. But I'm not okay with shutting up and just forgetting about it. And I'm not okay with ultimatums. And I'm not going to just leave. Leaving her to do this would be the ethical thing to do for somesome... But to me, I don't see it that way. I see me leaving as taking away her option to change. If all else fails, likely the plan will become resorting to unethical means of having needs met. Chances for it working out are higher than the "just leave her" method.
 
So maybe discussing things via email is the way to do it?

Re:
"I'm not okay with shutting up and just forgetting about it."
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Is that what she wants you to do?
 
kdt26417 said:
So maybe discussing things via email is the way to do it?

Re:


Is that what she wants you to do?
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Very good question. She has said in the past, she doesn't want to take this lifestyle completely away because she does understand it's a part of me. And has expressed at least some guilt from here apprehensions on it.

Thanks for asking that. It seems that may be a bit of an exaggeration on my part.
 
Well, if she is at least willing to talk about it, that is a good sign, right?
 
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