And I agree with you on that approach. Yes, we raise kids with the expectation that one day, they will leave the nest. That's normal, and completely natural. And really, it even more so divides the analogies of partner vs parent/child. That's why the loving multiple children analogy as a means to explain the ability to love multiple partners is also severely flawed. Keep in mind, that the context I made the comparison (adopting a child to pick up the slack of a current child) was not to suggest that having more than one child was a bad idea. However, it is important to recognize that children often do feel a deficit of love. And telling oneself that they'll eventually get used to it is not a noble justification.
I've been having relationship issues after my gf came out poly to me
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And I agree with you on that approach. Yes, we raise kids with the expectation that one day, they will leave the nest. That's normal, and completely natural. And really, it even more so divides the analogies of partner vs parent/child. That's why the loving multiple children analogy as a means to explain the ability to love multiple partners is also severely flawed. Keep in mind, that the context I made the comparison (adopting a child to pick up the slack of a current child) was not to suggest that having more than one child was a bad idea. However, it is important to recognize that children often do feel a deficit of love. And telling oneself that they'll eventually get used to it is not a noble justification.
PinkPig
Well-known member
Here's the crux of the matter. Perception. Our perceptions are colored by our own experiences, internal dialogue, and our views on life. Just because we perceive something to be true, does not in fact make it true! Just because the child perceives that the parent loves him less does not make it true. Same with poly relationships. It takes more effort on the parent's part to ensure that the older child still feels loved...same with the poly partner. Some people are better at it than others. But, the child's perceptions don't affect the love the parent has for the child. Same with poly partners.
Again, I guess it's all a matter of perspective. I can't quantify my love...it just doesn't work like that for me. Love isn't a measurable, quantifiable, comparable thing for me.... I don't love my children equal amounts, I just love them. I can't compare the love for one to the love for another. The love isn't the same....but it's also not completely different? If one child died, I could have 25 more children and I'd still feel the same longing for the child who passed away. I still love my ex-husband. I can't imagine ever not loving him. It doesn't affect my love for Blue at all. I love him fully, and would miss him acutely if he were no longer in my life. I love Snow and miss her...but, again, that doesn't reduce the love I have for Blue at all. If anything, as you've said, our love grows each day we're together.
Given your experience, I could see why you'd feel this way. But, it still doesn't mean there wouldn't be benefits, just that you wouldn't be open to seeing them. (And, again, I'm not talking about what happened with your wife...that was cheating and unethical.)
All that said, I'm really not trying to convince you to try poly
Yep. Def stunning.
FWIW, I don't think it is selfish.
If your spouse decided they are poly? If spouse asked you to consider if that's something you are up for? You consider it. If you find it is not your cup of tea, it is not your cup of tea. Plain and simple. You inform the spouse where you stand. That isn't being selfish. That is being honest and up front about where you are at.
Then you and spouse have to decide what to do about the marriage.
How is your wife currently treating you like you are being selfish?
- Calling you names?
- Acting like you are witholding something from her that she's entitled to?
- Ignoring you?
- Something else?
That is not cool if she's doing that.
I don't think either of those changes in your behavior (i.e.: you start dating, you voyeur wife) is going to “solve” the jealousy/fear thing if the bottom line is that you feel unsafe because wife is behaving in ways that undermine emotional safety within the marriage. Who can feel safe when spouse is busy calling them names like “selfish” or treating them with disdain?
I mean, you could (date AND voyeur your wife) but if she's still (calling you names or treating you with disdain) you probably still will feel yucky. Those suggestions don't really apply to the situation at hand or help to solve it. The solution is for her to stop doing those things or for you to distance yourself away from her so it no longer affects you even if she continues.
That is something you might want to examine in your healing process when you get to that one. I know you had a lot of other things on your plate to work on with your counselor.
When you are ready to take that one on? Consider... How is she “too good” for you? You don't consider yourself worthy or good enough to have a partner? Do you talk in your head like you are “less than?” Do you believe "you are lucky to have relationships" or do you believe "you participate in the relationships you want to maintain"?
If so, some of that could be you contributing to the “not safe” vibe within your mind and subsequently within the marriage.
I'd been thinking about your other post. Are things any better for you since September? I know you had a lot going on and a lot of mourning things to process.
I hope your counselor is helping.
Hang in there!
Galagirl
Thank you. I appreciate the fact that you don't consider it selfish. Unfortunately, that's not the consensus that others have come to. Quite the opposite in fact. Initially, yes, my wife had called me selfish. But it was much more than that, she & her other friends had essentially discussed the matter, and one was able to convince her that it was a form of "emotional abuse". The fellow she had been "involved" with (to whatever degree has still never been fully resolved) suggested that she leave me for being too controlling. She tells her therapist that I simply don't want her to have any friends. And when I told her (and him) that as long as he has a presence in her life, that I will never be comfortable in OUR marriage, I was treated as some sort of monster that even had my kids not talking to me for a while.
And you're right, me dating another, or voyering my wife would not solve anything. That's why it was so offensive that anyone could bother to suggest it. I'm monogamous because I could never love anyone (romantically) like I do her, and I don't believe it's possible for her to love anyone (romantically) while still loving me, period. It's true that I have bouts of insecurity, but I'm not opposed to an open marriage because of any fears of not finding another partner myself. At the risk of sounding boastful, I don't consider myself the worst looking guy, nor do I think that my personality (despite how I may come off on this site due to the subject) is unattractive. That's not the issue. The truth is, that my love for my wife is centered around her, not myself. When it comes to sex, my libido is attracted to HER, and has little to nothing to do with satisfying a physical urge on my part. When I'm in the mood, it's because I'm into HER. Yes, I appreciate attractiveness & beauty of others, but not once have I ever had the urge, or even fantasized about anyone else. As hard as that might sound to believe to most others (and I certainly don't expect that I'm in the majority on it), it's the simple truth believe it or not.
I've often thought about that... Yes, I've really worked to examine why I feel that she's "too good" for me. and it's true that I've dealt with insecurity & depression all of my life. It's a hard habit to shake when you grow up in a a state of solitude, seemingly ignored or unaccepted by anyone & everyone. And then, one person comes along and seems to genuinely accept you no matter what. You tend to wonder when the announcer is going to show up & reveal the candid camera. Ultimately, you actually do begin to feel comfortable, safe & content. Things are great in one aspect, despite the continuing rejection from other areas & people in life. You begin to feel that as long as we have each other, everything is going to be alright... But then... BAM! You're told by that one constant source of love, that you're not as special because this other person she's been talking to for a few months, gets to have exactly what you've had all along. (keep in mind, she never actually said I wasn't special, but it sure came across that way).
Am I contributing to the "not safe vibe"? Perhaps in a way I am. But I'm far from being the only source.
And yes, things are quite a bit better than they were. The feeling of unease are still there, but less frequent than they have been. She has genuinely apologized for putting me on the back burner while grieving for my dad... But knowing that she still feels the sense of loss for severing communication with he who shall no longer be named in our house, still bothers me. Counselling helps, but at the same time, it's disheartening to think that we both need it as heavily as we do.
YouAreHere
Well-known member
But it still has to be dealt with, regardless of the intent. It's still "true" for the child, and that relationship will change as a result.
Back to the various Love Languages, and to stick with the parent/child analogy here: a parent who spends a large amount of time at the office to provide for her family may definitely be doing it out of love, and sacrificing much of herself to do just that. The child may just want time with that parent, and misinterpret that parent's work schedule as an UNloving act that takes them away from the family. The intent of the parent doesn't invalidate what the child is feeling, and not working toward some sort of compromise just makes the alienation worse.
Perception is reality at times, regardless of how "true" it is. Good intent, to me, isn't an excuse to not do the work when a relationship is failing (parent/child or other).
Not saying you're going there, PinkPig, but it just brought back memories of my ExH going, "But I was JOKING!" when he was being an asshat (and thinking that absolved him of any wrongdoing).
First of all - Thank you for saying that. I definitely do put a lot of thought into my posts, because I feel that it's important to give as accurate of a portrayal as possible. And these are the types of thoughts that have kept me up on so many sleepless nights. Sometimes being awake for 40+ hours straight, can tend to juggle the brain a bit, but it's not until I have those moments of clarity, where I can finally catch a break & a few winks. Then, I'm able to type them out somewhat coherently. Despite the appearance of babbling on at times.
Honestly though, I don't think that my wife saw this as a transition out of our marriage, and into a new relationship. At least, not in a permanent sense. Otherwise, I don't think that she'd have been so quick to choose to stay, vs move across country in pursuit of the unknown with a barely employed man-child who still lives with his mother & grandmother. She would be leaving A LOT behind if she did. Not just the tangible things, or even a marriage like ours, but the kids, a lot of family she has here, etc... I'm not sure if he had any hopes on her leaving me for him (which definitely isn't poly on either of their part, you're right), but she knew there was no future there with him. And from other mutual friends of theirs that I've spoken with, he's always perfectly content with online relationships. I'm sure that he had his hopes up that they might some day meet in person, and allow for something physical, but I get the impression that even he knows he could never provide for her the way she's accustomed to.
PinkPig
Well-known member
But it still has to be dealt with, regardless of the intent. It's still "true" for the child, and that relationship will change as a result.
Back to the various Love Languages, and to stick with the parent/child analogy here: a parent who spends a large amount of time at the office to provide for her family may definitely be doing it out of love, and sacrificing much of herself to do just that. The child may just want time with that parent, and misinterpret that parent's work schedule as an UNloving act that takes them away from the family. The intent of the parent doesn't invalidate what the child is feeling, and not working toward some sort of compromise just makes the alienation worse.
Perception is reality at times, regardless of how "true" it is. Good intent, to me, isn't an excuse to not do the work when a relationship is failing (parent/child or other).
Not saying you're going there, PinkPig, but it just brought back memories of my ExH going, "But I was JOKING!" when he was being an asshat (and thinking that absolved him of any wrongdoing).
All good points! In the case of the parent/child, I believe the onus is on the parent to ensure that the child's needs for love are being met. In the case of a poly relationship, both partners are mutually responsible. If the poly partner/hinge's experience and love language is acts of service and the mono partner/leg's love language is quality time, then if the poly partner is performing these loving acts of service, but the mono partner is just wanting quality time, then the mono partner should speak up! Ask for what he/she needs...and the poly partner should be receptive to listening to the mono partner! Both parties then should be receptive to compromise
Again, thank you for the kind words. I'll keep posting as long as others keep paying attention.
That being said. It's not about feeling like my wife "did something to me". But rather, taking the actions she did, while knowing beforehand how I would feel about them. I've always been a firm believer in the notion that, if you love someone, and you're actions are hurting them, then stop doing whatever it is that's hurting them. And don't put yourself in that position in the first place, if you know it's going to hurt them.
Case in point, she had previously declared to me that she was bisexual. I actually knew this about her early on around the time we met. This didn't bother me, because there was never any pressure regarding sex with a woman. Who she was/is, has never been the problem. I've always been willing to accept that. It's whether or not she acts on it, that becomes the relevant discussion. The same goes with poly. She could have revealed that to me any time, and as long as she's been willing to avoid that lifestyle while we're together, then everything's good. It was her seeming to have players on the sideline, waiting for the signal to go in that caused me distress. It was her seeming to want to act on it, but only agreeing not to because I said no. The reality is, I find the thought of her in bed with anyone else (male or female) disturbing & disgusting.
And I know that it seems like a lot of pressure to put on someone. Personally, I take great pride in being that one person she turns to. And before JB came into the picture, she seemed to take pride in being that one person I could turn to as well. He shows up, and everything is turned on its head.
Yes, but the frustrating, and maddening part is when after all these years, they never show a sign that they feel suffocated. For example, some people will dip into a tiny room & find it cozy, others may be claustrophobic, and feel like they can't breathe. Not saying that either is wrong, everyone is different of course. But when you spend 16 years seeming to love the coziness, and then, out of nowhere, the room is suddenly too small for comfort, it's going to cause concern.
Just to interject, needs aren't necessarily life or death. And anyone who drives another to suicide via shame, etc... is clearly a monster. An yes, it's extremely important to accept someone for who they are. And that pendulum swings both ways.
That being said, people tend to blur the lines on needs vs wants. It's crucial that we keep those lines clear. I think that sex is a need for most people... That doesn't mean that having it 15 times/week is a need.
Now, I really am glad for you & your hubby that he's so open to you sleeping with others. That works for you, and that's great. I however, am not okay with my wife doing that. And yes, there are countless others who feel that way. Not to sound rude (and I sincerely apologize if it does, I just can't think of any other way to put this), but I have to think that you realize that your situation is rare too. Why else would you have been surprised that he was alright with you falling in love with other(s)?
CTF said:
Glad things in that area are better.
CTF said:
Why does it bother you? What would you prefer instead?
She cheated on agreements. Maybe she was seeking escapism from mourning stuff, but still. It was cheating. She took up with Dude when the marriage was Closed. At the crossroads? She decided to (dump Dude and continue in the marriage) rather than (leave the marriage.) No break up I know of, even wanted ones, are "fun" to feel. There's some emotional load to process. So now she has to come to terms and process.
CTF said:
Hopefully it helps you both get back to a healthier place. You had your dad die, your wife went emotionally absent, there's the emotional affair thing -- lots of problems. It is reasonable and rational for it to feel disheartening after all these things happened one after the other.
The need for counseling is not disheartening to me -- that's being honest about the situation, being hopeful there's a better place to get to, and doing the work to do so.
Galagirl
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Here's the crux of the matter. Perception. Our perceptions are colored by our own experiences, internal dialogue, and our views on life. Just because we perceive something to be true, does not in fact make it true! Just because the child perceives that the parent loves him less does not make it true. Same with poly relationships. It takes more effort on the parent's part to ensure that the older child still feels loved...same with the poly partner. Some people are better at it than others. But, the child's perceptions don't affect the love the parent has for the child. Same with poly partners.
Again, I guess it's all a matter of perspective. I can't quantify my love...it just doesn't work like that for me. Love isn't a measurable, quantifiable, comparable thing for me.... I don't love my children equal amounts, I just love them. I can't compare the love for one to the love for another. The love isn't the same....but it's also not completely different? If one child died, I could have 25 more children and I'd still feel the same longing for the child who passed away. I still love my ex-husband. I can't imagine ever not loving him. It doesn't affect my love for Blue at all. I love him fully, and would miss him acutely if he were no longer in my life. I love Snow and miss her...but, again, that doesn't reduce the love I have for Blue at all. If anything, as you've said, our love grows each day we're together.
Given your experience, I could see why you'd feel this way. But, it still doesn't mean there wouldn't be benefits, just that you wouldn't be open to seeing them. (And, again, I'm not talking about what happened with your wife...that was cheating and unethical.)
All that said, I'm really not trying to convince you to try poly
I know you're not trying to convince me to go poly. Trust me, I've never thought that that was the case from you, nor really from anyone for that matter on this site. What I have seen from others not affiliated here, were those suggesting I try to let her explore the physical side, in an effort to allow her to be "who she is". But as I've mentioned, who someone is, and what they do, are not mutually exclusive.
In reality, I simply cannot agree to go that far. My wife is bisexual, does it bother me that she finds another woman attractive? No. Does it bother me that she finds another man attractive? No. Does it bother me that she could be "ok" in concept with multiple partners? No. It bothers me if she acts on them.
Yes, perception does get to the brass tacks. And you're right, perception of love, doesn't necessarily change whether or not that person (partner or child) is loved. But I do feel that we as human beings are responsible to show that love, otherwise, they're just empty words. I also think that when one partner is being extremely forthright about what they can, and cannot accept, it's vital that those words are heeded. I'm really into music, and when I'm feeling down, I tend to focus more on the lyrics. A song came across my playlist once, that I never fully focused on the words prior to, but since, it gets me every time. In the Stone Sour song, *Home Again*, there's a line that says: "Can anybody love someone, but pretend that they don't exist?". What struck me about this, was highlighting the point that love only exists to the degree that someone is willing to show it.
Honestly, I'd like to know what some of those benefits are. Because, from my vantage point, the only thing I hear is, "she could be happy being herself", or, "it takes the pressure off of me feeling the need to please her". The latter, to me though is more of a loss than a benefit.
Excellent point. Reminds me of that saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
All good points! In the case of the parent/child, I believe the onus is on the parent to ensure that the child's needs for love are being met. In the case of a poly relationship, both partners are mutually responsible. If the poly partner/hinge's experience and love language is acts of service and the mono partner/leg's love language is quality time, then if the poly partner is performing these loving acts of service, but the mono partner is just wanting quality time, then the mono partner should speak up! Ask for what he/she needs...and the poly partner should be receptive to listening to the mono partner! Both parties then should be receptive to compromise
It's often difficult to use other relationship types to compare to long term spouses. So granted, there will always be a faulty aspect. Husband/wife, BF/GF, etc... are very unique in structure, that it can seem virtually impossible to find a comparable relationship model that can't be picked apart for one reason or another. That's why I try to dig deep and discuss the individual concern. In which case, the feeling of not being enough is very real when someone says they feel the need to seek another person along the same level. We tend to feel slighted because, if we really were enough, then there would be no need to seek another in conjunction. So we feel as though we failed because we could not fill the void no matter what we do.
Here's another example. It might be a bit crude, but hopefully it makes sense. Imagine you start to work for a company in the mail room. Every day, you show up eager for work because you love the company you're at. 20-30 years go by, and after regular promotions, you work your way up to senior management. You put in the work because you care, you take pride in it, and you put in the time & devotion. Then, out of nowhere, the board announces that they're hiring some fresh out of college 20 something kid to share your position with you. Not because you're not productive, but because the company would rather have two senior executives, and to boot, they get the same pay, the same benefits, company car & more that you have, without even having to take the time to learn the company mission statement. And to make matters worse, the board favors the new guys ideas over yours most of the time.
Glad things in that area are better.
Why does it bother you? What would you prefer instead?
She cheated on agreements. Maybe she was seeking escapism from mourning stuff, but still. It was cheating. She took up with Dude when the marriage was Closed. At the crossroads? She decided to (dump Dude and continue in the marriage) rather than (leave the marriage.) No break up I know of, even wanted ones, are "fun" to feel. There's some emotional load to process. So now she has to come to terms and process.
Galagirl
I guess it bothers me that she could have ever seen him in that regard in the first place. Preferably, I would have wanted some understanding that this was the way it had to be in order for us to move on as us.
I know that breakups (or whatever this could have been called since she still insists that it was only platonic) are difficult. I don't know... I suppose I'm extremely abnormal in my ability to let people go. There are very few people that I could stop talking too, and feel like a true loss. I have friends & family that I haven't talked to in 15-20 years. Some were due to drifting apart, and others there was a specific reason or another and was abrupt. I don't "miss" any of them. My wife would be one of the extremely rare people that I would miss forever. That's why it's so difficult to fathom her feeling the same about someone else, as I do about her.
Could you clarify that? I'm not sure I get what you mean.
Seen him in WHAT regard? She had some crush on some Dude and had an emotional affair.
Are you saying she doesn't understand that she had to dump her cheating affair partner in order for you to become willing to continue with her in repairing the marriage?
And now she's being all sad over the break up acting like you took her candy away?
Galagirl
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Well... if you feel like you need to fill a void...
However, it is unfortunate that you took up a task you did not know was impossible (and the other party wasn't willing/able to tell you).
I like the example and I see where your feelings come from, yet I will change it a little.
For what I can understand and see in my relationship, two relationships with the same person need and will not have the same position (perhaps equally important, but not the same), and probably not even the same "mission statement". Deffinitelly not a marriage and a casual relationship. And it will take time and effort for the new person to go trough the dating process and build a relationship, the process will be much like yours.
So in a relationship that is intended to be poly, the new person doesn't get the same position from the start, rather a fair chance to become just as indispensable with time.
However, I agree that it is a loss for a monogamous person. I see it as if the new person gets payed something from *resources not available previously*, but gets also a (hopefully small) part of your wage and benefits.
In a successful transition, you also get one day a week off and you find something just as meaningfull/enjoyable/well payed to do in that time (which does take effort).In addition, the new kid may be tallented, and then everyone learns how to run the company even more effectively.
edit: I do not feel comfortable with the "trade" of some of the benefits vs. more freedom either, especially if a one-sided decision. But I can work with it.
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Could you clarify that? I'm not sure I get what you mean.
Seen him in WHAT regard? She had some crush on some Dude and had an emotional affair.
Are you saying she doesn't understand that she had to dump her cheating affair partner in order for you to become willing to continue with her in repairing the marriage?
And now she's being all sad over the break up acting like you took her candy away?
Galagirl
In a "romantic/sexual" regard. Although she still doesn't admit that she has, but has stated repeatedly that she saw no problem with it eventually happening. In short, she was trying to keep a door open, even by a crack, that I could not ever be comfortable with unless is was welded shut with the key destroyed.
And yes, that's what she doesn't seem to understand that I need. Again, the tone she takes with me, she's presenting it as though I took away a platonic friend. She kept saying over & over that it signifies that I don't trust her to be able to say no to letting him into our bed. To which I explained that since I've already received the shock of a lifetime just hearing that she might want to sleep with him (personally, I think it goes much deeper than that), I'm in a constant state of panic over what the next big shocking revelation could be.
She kept saying things like "I don't want to sleep with him yet, or I don't view him romantically "right now". Basically taking the never say never approach. Which would be understandable, if it weren't for the fact that I cannot feel safe if I feel that the "yet" could become reality at any moment. And once it does, we're essentially through. It's like there was a ticking time bomb on our marriage with no display clock. Who knows when it would go off?
vinsanity0
Active member
I will assume that she didn't sleep with him. That she sees no problem with her eventually sleeping with him when she's in a Closed marriage -- that is a problem. It's CHEATING on agreements. I can see why that would bug you.
Is this still the case? Still a ticking time bomb or is this past?
So... do you expect to let this go over time? Or can you never trust her again?
Galagirl
Correct; they aren't. I phrased my post (the one you quoted) the way I did in response to Vinccenzo's post, which did say something along the lines of being polyamorous isn't a need because no one's ever died from being monogamous.
Having a spouse who's okay with you having sex or falling in love with others isn't all that rare, in my experience. But it is usually a spouse who is *also* interested in possibly having sex or falling in love with others. I wasn't surprised by Hubby's acceptance because I thought it was rare, though. I was surprised because it was a complete reversal from the position he stated about open marriage/polyamory earlier in our marriage.