So... It's over now?

[Lupa]

Hello again everyone, I thought it was time to catch you all up on what happened in my relationships over the last few weeks, it's been quite a ride!

Little introduction:
Lupa: me, early 30's, bisexual and poly
Bear: my primary and love of my life for 13 years now, early 30's, hetero and monogamish
Leo: my boyfriend of 5y, early 30's, hetero and poly
Red: Leo's girlfriend and primary since November, early 30's, hetero and monogamous

It all started when Leo, who has been 'single' throughout the course of our 5-year relationship (finally) found a girlfriend, Red: http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77553 (see my first post for more info).
I was kind of anxious as to how this would develop. I haven't had any real experience with sharing a lover, as Bear is monogamish and Leo is my first poly lover.

Also it was hard that from the beginning of their relationship, I got mixed messages from Leo: he said that he would continue to invest time and energy in our relationship, that he would never tolerate a woman who asked him to choose between her and me, that I was very important to him etc. He told Red on their first date that he was seeing me, loved me and that if she couldn't live with that, it probably wouldn't work between them. He would however be willing to stop being sexual with me so she could have time to get used to the whole idea. She agreed and immediately accepted his offer to stop having a physical relationship with me. They also moved in almost immediately (she didn't like her place and he has a big house to himself).

I started working on getting things clear for myself (seeing my therapist again really helped). I was just going through a rough patch with Leo and felt insecure about him investing time and energy in our relationship, esp now that he had a shiny new girlfriend to occupy his thoughts.
So first step was figuring out what I want. I soon came to the conclusion that my relationship with Leo had grown into something too intense and time-consuming. From the get-go I had this idea of seeing Leo alone about once a week, maybe sleeping over sometimes and going on holiday together (Bear doesn't like to travel, Leo and I love it). It has been a constant struggle not to let Leo too close into the rest of my life, as he didn't have another lover, he kind of tried to put me in the place of 'his primary', even though I couldn't possibly meet his needs in this. I have tried and found that being a primary to two otherwise single men was exhausting for me. That's why it bothered me when Leo demanded more attention then I could (or wanted to) give.

Now with Red as Leo's girlfriend, I started to see how this could be benificial for us (Leo and myself): finally he had his primary, and now our relationship could be what I always wanted it to be. A secondary relationship, where we could hang out, go travelling together, have sex, without getting too caught up in each others day-to-day lives. Just to be clear: I was often Leo's closest friend, and tried to help him any way I could. Looking for jobs, doing his accounts, making sure he ate, making appointments for him... Like GalaGirl noticed ("dude doesn't sound healthy"), Leo has a lot of baggage (history of mental illness, alcohol abuse, benzodiazepine abuse, not taking care of himself, ...) and apparently he triggered some kind of 'White Knight complex' in me. I thought I could help him with my love and devotion and put an insane amount of time and energy into helping him, even though he didn't always ask for it, I just saw his need and tried to fill it in. Now this is all stuff I figured out in therapy, while I was doing it I didn't think about it as unhealthy.

So, I had a clear picture of what kind of relationship I would like to have with Leo, and because of his new primary, this seemed even more possible than before, since she would be living with him and thus be his first go-to person for day-to-day troubles.

If not for one little detail that Leo didn't seem to want to see: Reds monogamy. He said that she would get used to him being poly, and she agreed that we could still see and talk to each other, so no problem, right?
He repeatedly told me: "I don't see any problem and I don't understand why you keep insisting that there is one."
The question that I had from the beginning: okay, so you choose to place physical boundaries on our relationship out of concern for Red, and I'm fine with that, but does she understand that we still have an emotional relationship? That we write 'sweetie', 'kisses', 'lover' and the like in messages and e-mails? And is she okay with that? He said that was no problem, even though they had a fight when I sent him a goodnight-text once, so it didn't seem that clear to me.

We jump to the week of New Year's Eve. I had asked via text if he had time for me that week, with the holidays and all, and he said yes, he would love to see me during the day on Thursday (New Year's Eve) and Saturday. On Thursday he didn't show and I didn't hear anything from him 'till late that night when I was celebrating with Bear and friends. A text, something about him relapsing (alcohol) and thus having no time for me, but he'd just sobered up and hoped to make more time for me in the new year. I was upset but didn't really show it. I just asked if Saturday was still on. He said yes, he would ask Red since she would not be working that day.
That Friday I didn't have an answer yet and as I asked again, I got the idea that they were fighting about it. Suddenly I got two messages almost at the same time: Leo texting me "if this conversation keeps going the way it does, I will have a lot of time for you tomorrow..." and a few minutes later Red sent me a message over Facebook: "Please take good care of him." I sent them both the same reply, that this didn't sound good, that I certainly didn't want them fighting and didn't want to instigate anything, and that I hoped they would work it out. Leo was very curt in his reply ("don't think we will, jealous bitch") while Red sent me a message that Leo had been drinking all week and she just couldn't take it, seeing him destroy himself like that. We sent some kind messages to each other and I saw (and see) her as a kind, caring girl that wants the best for Leo. It took me a lot of self-restraint not to start acting like a White Knight again ("I'll help you both, poor lost souls!") and kept out of it. When Leo came to see me the next day, he was very emotional and depressed. He said that Red had completely flipped when he said he wanted to see me and said no, he couldn't go, by which Leo replied with "if that's how you feel, you can get out now", which she did. I stopped him from doing physical stuff (it was just a day since his fight with Red and also he wasn't very attractive in his depressed and drugged state) and encouraged him to see Red again to try and make it work.

Little intermezzo. Last Wednesday, Leo called me early in the morning, which is never a good sign. He said that he fell down the stairs (I didn't need to ask what state he was in) and he was bleeding and his arm hurt a lot. This has happened before and I had learned that if I took him to the hospital like he wanted I would miss work, I would be angry and frustrated at being pushed in the "savior"-box again and I would take it out on him. As hard as it may seem, I told him to call an ambulance. It turned out he broke his elbow and needed to stay in observation because he hit his head. I did take him home on Thursday, there was no one else to help him. I felt guilty about not doing more for him but at the same time I felt some pride at being able to sense and abide by my own limits.

 

[Lupa]

And then we come to the conclusion of this thrilling tale (sorry it's taking so long, I'm not a concise writer). On Friday I get a message from Red: "I know how the situation was, but that's history (he says). So I just want to know what you're scared of. I see you now as Leo's best friend, that's the way I can cope". This wasn't very clear to me, what was she on about? What situation?
On Saturday Leo called me and I asked him if he knew what Red's message could have meant. He said yeah, they had talked and agreed to get back together, but only if the relationship between Leo and me would now be classified as a "friendship". I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I asked for some more details and got the confirmation that there were to be no more sweetie-texts, no saying we love each other, no flirting, nothing. So on top of the physical boundaries, he had promised Red there would be no loving connection between him and myself, we would just be friends.

How could he possibly promise that to her? And without even checking with me or informing me of this decision? I started crying right in the middle of the store I was in, luckily Bear guided me home and was the same amazing guy he always is.

The last communication there has been were a few e-mails. I summed up everything that was said and asked for confirmation ("so you just agreed to a monogamous relationship with Red and thus effectively ended your poly relationship with me"). He replied very angry, flinging insults ("if you only wanted me for sex, it's nice to know what I'm worth to you", "I threw Red out last week for you, if I knew this is how you were thinking I would have acted differently"), and, what's most amazing, denied that our poly relationship was over. He was actually angry because I dare suggest he ended our relationship by agreeing to a monogamous relationship with Red.

Needless to say I was completely flabbergasted and even more confused. How can you have a monogamous relationship, and a poly relationship at the same time?
From the beginning, when he just got together with Red, I had this idea of "you know what, you take your time building a foundation with this new girl, and if it's time, we can still see if there is room for us. But let's leave it for now, it'll be too difficult for all of us." He insisted, no, he wanted to keep me as a lover and partner and Red would be okay with it.

As I talked to my therapist this week she said: "You know, I get the feeling that you're waiting for Leo to say "it's over between us", and for some reason he can't see or say that. But you know that is the case. Make your own conclusion." And since that talk I can see it, so clearly. Of course it's over. You can't promise someone not to have outside relationships and then promise your secondary you're still in a relationship with them. The only thing I'm dreading now is talking to Leo as he seems to think we're still together.

And GalaGirl, the last post on my previous thread from you, really stuck with me. I thought that because I have no experience with relationships ending, I would not be able to cope. But now that it's here, it turns out my fears in anticipation were far greater than my feelings now that it's actually over (like it says in "Feel the fear and do it anyway", from the moment you make a decision, most of your fear dissapates). I am apparently stronger than I think. I don't know if we'll ever get together again and am fine with keeping that option open, but mostly I'm relieved that I decided to quit this soap opera for now. I'm not planning on quitting polyamory and don't blame the practice of non-monogamy for the ending of this relationship, but I will take some time to rest and reflect before looking for anyone new.

And that's my story. If you made it this far, thanks for listening . As usual, any questions, reflections and opinions are welcome.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm relieved that I decided to quit this soap opera for now.

Me too! Glad you were assertive and broke up with Leo for telling you one thing and Red another. I hope you feel better for the vent and that you heal from the break up.

I'm not planning on quitting polyamory and don't blame the practice of non-monogamy for the ending of this relationship, but I will take some time to rest and reflect before looking for anyone new.

That sounds like a good plan.

As usual, any questions, reflections and opinions are welcome.

I still think Dude is just not healthy and continues not to be. He's toxic sounding.

I hope you reconsider keeping the option open with him and choose to firmly CLOSE that door instead. This person is no great prize to be with. TBH, the more you write? The more he sounds like a narcissist after supply to me. Like he wanted you and Red in his collection of suppliers and just blew up spectacularly when it didn't work like he wanted with either.

If not for one little detail that Leo didn't seem to want to see: Reds monogamy. He said that she would get used to him being poly, and she agreed that we could still see and talk to each other, so no problem, right?

He repeatedly told me: "I don't see any problem and I don't understand why you keep insisting that there is one."

Red flag. I suspect that he thinks you and Red are not actual people with voices of your own. You two are objects to supply him with whatever he needs when he says. He's the conductor who runs the puppet show. To him -- where is problem? You just are supposed to fall into line with whatever movie script he has in his head. Don't you know that?

I could be wrong. But to me it sounds like...

• You were cooling off and no longer wanting to be so tight where he still wanted to suck you dry.
• So he sought Red to be his main supplier but said whatever to you so you'd be willing to hang around for "back up" supply if it didn't work with her. (That she'd be ok with poly, etc)
• You tried to do a "soft" break up but he ignored it. You ignored it also. Instead you tried to soften like "maybe it will work like secondaries then"
• She moves in much too fast without really know him or his character.
• Time passes. She wanted some clarity on their relationship and for him to exercise self control (i.e.: take personal responsibility) with the excess drinking.
• He kicks her out for "being jealous" rather than he's being a drunk and telling her one thing and you another and she's finally wanting some clarity and accountability. He blame storms and throws her out in a temper fit.
• He has a drunk spill down the stairs and Red is not around to care take. Does he take personal responsibility for himself and call 911? No. He calls you first, wanting you to drop everything and run to tend to him. Hoover attempt.
• You tell him to call ambulance. You do give him ride home. Basically you do what YOU are up for, not what he wants.
• Since you were standing firmer on some boundaries, that made you a harder target than you used to be. You weren't biting fast enough and he was with nobody. He is not liking it.
• He sucks Red back in by saying whatever she wants to hear. (She's a softer target since he kicked her out -- she didn't want to leave. )

Then when you get the news?

I summed up everything that was said and asked for confirmation ("so you just agreed to a monogamous relationship with Red and thus effectively ended your poly relationship with me"). He replied very angry, flinging insults

No he didn't. (<--- in his mind) But it isn't like he was going to say

"No, I didn't end it with you. I just said whatever Red wanted to hear so I could get her back in the house as my main supply. I don't like being without supply.

I still want you around for my back up supply because she's not playing to script any more and she might bail on me!"​

So he insults and blame storms at you to obfuscate. And maybe because he's mad at you for "not playing right" and responding to his 911 Hoover. If YOU had played to the script in his head then, there'd be no need for him to get Red back in the first place. YOU would be his main supplier.

So this is all YOUR fault! (<--- his wonky thinking.)

Needless to say I was completely flabbergasted and even more confused

That's how he rolls, hon. Blame storming rather than taking personal responsibility for his actions/choices. He's not a healthy person. You don't need to understand the inner workings of all his baggage -- you just have to understand that he's super unhealthy and being around him triggers your White Knight thing that you are trying to lose.

You see that he comes with a lot of baggage -- history of mental illness, alcohol abuse, benzodiazepine abuse, not taking care of himself, wanting other to caretaker him...

Offering himself as a dating partner to anyone right now is just offering them a mess. Healthy people won't want to take up with that. That's not having a dating partner. That's having a case load.

I thought that because I have no experience with relationships ending, I would not be able to cope. But now that it's here, it turns out my fears in anticipation were far greater than my feelings now that it's actually over (like it says in "Feel the fear and do it anyway", from the moment you make a decision, most of your fear dissapates). I am apparently stronger than I think.

I am glad you see all that now. I am glad your therapist is helping you become healthier. That seems good for you. WTG!

I am glad you have discovered that yes indeed, you CAN cope. WTG!

Hopefully knowing you CAN handle things helps you end it faster if the next person you date is as unhealthy to be with like Leo was. And you won't stay there so long trying to "fix it and make it work" because you have let go of the White Knight thing too. WTG on that!

As I talked to my therapist this week she said: "You know, I get the feeling that you're waiting for Leo to say "it's over between us", and for some reason he can't see or say that. But you know that is the case. Make your own conclusion." And since that talk I can see it, so clearly. Of course it's over.

Good. I am glad YOU see it is over. Because unhealthy LEO might not -- he didn't the first time with your soft break up. And he might come around trying to suck you back in again. Be on guard for that. Tell him you are broken up. Continue to be a hard target so he flits off to bother easier people to Hoover.

From the beginning, when he just got together with Red, I had this idea of "you know what, you take your time building a foundation with this new girl, and if it's time, we can still see if there is room for us. But let's leave it for now, it'll be too difficult for all of us

I don't know if we'll ever get together again and am fine with keeping that option open

You could work on YOUR break up style. Just break it off. Close the door.

Not do this "soft break up" thing or "maybe one day" thing. That might be ok with some people, but with Leo? He's a mess and I suspect any inch you give, he will try to take a mile. Maybe being firmer could have saved yourself some of the last bit of the Leo drama.

But overall things are looking up for you, and you are improving your skills. So I am glad for you. That's an accomplishment and I am glad you are taking pride in those healthier steps you have taken. Again, WTG!

Again, very glad you are out of that Leo drama. Make sure you STAY out.

GL!
Galagirl

 

[Lupa]

Hi GalaGirl, thank you so much for the time and effort you put into your excellent response. I saw that first you replied to me and later on you edited your post to be even more detailed, and I want you to know that I truly appreciate the fact that you took time out of your day to help me understand.

TBH, the more you write? The more he sounds like a narcissist after supply to me. Like he wanted you and Red in his collection of suppliers and just blew up spectacularly when it didn't work like he wanted with either.

I'm actually a little surprised you came up with this based on the information I gave you. It's not a surprise to me that Leo has narcissistic traits, I found a book in a secondhand shop about 8 months ago that's called "Disarming the narcissist. Surviving and thriving with the self-absorbed" (it spoke to me because the Dutch title was "Why is it always about you?" ). I don't know if it goes as far as actual NPD, because Leo is able to recognize faults and weaknesses in himself and when I spoke to him about the book he understood why I made links between some of his behavior and narcissism. But after a while he did become annoyed at the feeling that I was trying to put yet another label on him.
This has been a great mutual interest of us. I have a Master's degree in Pedagogical Sciences (which is like Psychology but with more emphasis on development) and have a passion especially for everything to do with psychiatry and mental illness. He has always been very keen to discuss my views on disorders and treatments and compare them to his own experiences in psychiatry. Maybe because I now work in the field of mental healthcare, I know I have a soft spot for 'broken' people and am very understanding and forgiving for their destructive behaviors, seeing a disorder as an illness that primarily hurts themselves and they don't consciously choose to be this way. I also have a tremendous belief in the possibility of change for anyone, at any age. Of course Leo loved this about me as I rarely blamed him for his behavior, where other people (who are now no longer in his life) weren't as forgiving.
So in a way, I always 'felt' that when the tables were turned and I would go to him for support, he wouldn't be able to be there for me. When he started seeing Red and I repeatedly made it clear that I was worried he wouldn't make enough time for me, he promised that I needn't worry, he would make the time, but when push came to shove he didn't fulfill those promises.

Of course, I see Leo as more than just a list of traits or disorders. Of course there were good times (otherwise we wouldn't have lasted five years) and I can see that he genuinly tries to be a good guy, and wants to make something of his life. I'm pretty sure he isn't even aware of how destructive some of his behaviors can be, and he doesn't consciously try to put me down or make me feel bad. Unfortunately, this also means he doesn't see a need to change his behavior. As I am a big fan of self-analysis and self improvement, he hates looking too close at his inner workings and prefers to set goals for the future and then just work toward that goal.

I could be wrong. But to me it sounds like...

I understand that you see it this way, and I'm not disagreeing with you, with that nuance that I'm sure he is not fully aware of these patterns.

That's how he rolls, hon. Blame storming rather than taking personal responsibility for his actions/choices. He's not a healthy person. You don't need to understand the inner workings of all his baggage -- you just have to understand that he's super unhealthy and being around him triggers your White Knight thing that you are trying to lose.

You see that he comes with a lot of baggage -- history of mental illness, alcohol abuse, benzodiazepine abuse, not taking care of himself, wanting other to caretaker him...

Offering himself as a dating partner to anyone right now is just offering them a mess. Healthy people won't want to take up with that. That's not having a dating partner. That's having a case load.

I do feel like I should 'prepare' myself with all the knowledge I can find to keep myself in a healthy space when communicating with him. However, just walking away ('closing the door' as you say and cut off all contact) feels like I'm punishing him for something he, in a way, 'can't help' being. I would just hate the idea of him thinking: "See, now she left me, too. Everyone leaves me. I offer up all my love and devotion and just get abandoned in the end... People suck, life sucks and women are untrustworthy bitches." I know there is only so much I can do to keep him from thinking this, but I still feel the need to show him how good life can be if you look at it from another angle than "Everyone is trying to screw me over and I should be prepared for that."

Good. I am glad YOU see it is over. Because unhealthy LEO might not -- he didn't the first time with your soft break up. And he might come around trying to suck you back in again. Be on guard for that. Tell him you are broken up. Continue to be a hard target so he flits off to bother easier people to Hoover.

I know it's kind of ridiculous, but it hurts when you write "so he flits off to bother easier people to Hoover". Not because it isn't true, but because I hate the idea of people getting hurt by his behavior. I feel sometimes like I should protect Red, warn her somehow... But I know that not only will I come off as the "bitchy ex who badmouths her boyfriend", but also that this isn't my responsibility, Red is allowed to make her own choices and make up her own mind about Leo. I did send her an e-mail explaining my side of the story and why I chose to end things for now -- not going into all my observations on "what's wrong with Leo" but rather explaining that I practice ethical non-monogamy and that if she really doesn't like the idea of poly, she shouldn't feel pressured into accepting it because there is already a secondary relationship, and that if she and Leo choose to go mono, I accept that and take a step back.

You could work on YOUR break up style. Just break it off. Close the door.

Not do this "soft break up" thing or "maybe one day" thing. That might be ok with some people, but with Leo? He's a mess and I suspect any inch you give, he will try to take a mile. Maybe being firmer could have saved yourself some of the last bit of the Leo drama.

You might be right, but it just feels so... harsh, throwing someone out of my life. I usually think "Yeah, it's harder keeping in touch than breaking things off completely, but I don't want to 'abandon' him and I'll be strong enough to handle what he throws at me." It may be unbelievable to you, but I do actually love that guy and want him to have a happy life.

But overall things are looking up for you, and you are improving your skills. So I am glad for you. That's an accomplishment and I am glad you are taking pride in those healthier steps you have taken. Again, WTG!

Again, very glad you are out of that Leo drama. Make sure you STAY out.

GL!
Galagirl

Thanks for all the WTG's .

After a week of silence (except for a text announcing that he was going home after his elbow surgery) he called me yesterday. I immediately said that I was fine with us talking on the phone and that he didn't need to come over (as he was planning to). He sounded dissapointed that I didn't feel the need to see him. We ended up talking for over an hour. As our conversation continued he became more and more agitated. I asked him to apologize for the harsh things he said in his last e-mails (that I only ever wanted him for sex, etc.) and he did, but also mentioned he didn't mean those things and that he probably wasn't fully 'awake' when he wrote those things. Anyway, I think you can imagine how the conversation went. I tried to 'reason' him, calling him on his excuses and trying to get him to take responsibility for his own actions. As time went on, he accused me of fighting him, he sounded angry and frustrated. Luckily, I stayed calm but felt dissapointed that I couldn't 'get through' to him. He accepted when I explained why we couldn't be in a relationship right now and after some protesting, he acknowledged that it was over, but he sounded very defeated. He then went on to discuss that he still wanted to see me every week, because we could still be friends, right? I just couldn't (and didn't want to) say: "No, I actually don't ever want to see you again as you are poisonous to be around" but I did say I needed some distance for now as it just would be too confusing for me to see each other every Saturday. He didn't like that answer either, but at least he didn't explode.

So I'm actually quite proud that I was able to explain that I needed some distance and he accepted it, however grudginly. Now I just need to work out how I can make sure I keep my distance when things go wrong with Red (not that I'm that defeatist, but I fear this is more a question of "when things go wrong" rather than "if things go wrong"), do only what I want to and not get sucked into his agenda again. Because I do see that I have been a part of this scenario as much as him, this dynamic could only exist because I went along with it and allowed it to happen.

 

[GalaGirl]

Unfortunately, this also means he doesn't see a need to change his behavior.

That's the bottom line to me. No, he did not ask to be this way. But if he's not taking personal responsibility for hurting those around him, trying to change, managing his conditions? He's not safe to be around for you.

do only what I want to and not get sucked into his agenda again. Because I do see that I have been a part of this scenario as much as him, this dynamic could only exist because I went along with it and allowed it to happen

Glad you see that. Keep working with your counselor.

GL!
Galagirl

 

[Lupa]

Thanks!

 

[polycurious123]

I was in a situation where I was the "Leo" to some degree. You said:

"I soon came to the conclusion that my relationship with Leo had grown into something too intense and time-consuming. From the get-go I had this idea of seeing Leo alone about once a week, maybe sleeping over sometimes and going on holiday together (Bear doesn't like to travel, Leo and I love it). It has been a constant struggle not to let Leo too close into the rest of my life, as he didn't have another lover, he kind of tried to put me in the place of 'his primary', even though I couldn't possibly meet his needs in this. I have tried and found that being a primary to two otherwise single men was exhausting for me. That's why it bothered me when Leo demanded more attention then I could (or wanted to) give."

One of my partners felt towards me the way you felt towards Leo - only wanted to see me once a week, you didn't want to get too close into the rest of your life, didn't want to give me the attention I needed.

So my question is - Why even be with someone when it was a "constant struggle"? I'm still learning about polyamory, but why would you want to still see Leo if you didn't want to give him attention, found him exhausting, only wanted to see him once a week?

 

[Lupa]

I was in a situation where I was the "Leo" to some degree.

One of my partners felt towards me the way you felt towards Leo - only wanted to see me once a week, you didn't want to get too close into the rest of your life, didn't want to give me the attention I needed.

So my question is - Why even be with someone when it was a "constant struggle"? I'm still learning about polyamory, but why would you want to still see Leo if you didn't want to give him attention, found him exhausting, only wanted to see him once a week?

Hi polycurious123,
I had made it clear to Leo, from the beginning of our relationship (after the first couple of months of general confusion and everyone figuring out where they stand), that I wanted to have a secondary relationship with him. To me, a relationship, esp in polyamory, doesn't have to be "all or nothing". There are people with which I work best in intense contact, and people that click with me on a more casual level. I honestly communicated with Leo that I could only offer him a limited amount of time to spend alone with him (Saturday when Bear is working, a couple of hours during the week). So it's not like I didn't want to give him attention, I sure did, but not, say, take three hours out of my day, everyday. He accepted and understood this. He also wanted a primary partner to spend most of his time with, but for the five years of our relationship, he didn't have one. So I noticed he kept on trying (consciously or unconsciously) to 'pull me in', ask more time of me. As I was very much in love with him, I also gave him more time and attention than I could spare, but I neglected hobbies, friendships and myself to give this. He got used to the fact that when he asked something of me (can you come over tomorrow? can I come over? can I sleep over?), I would probably accept it, unless I had a very good reason not to. That wasn't a good choice.
It was only after the intensity of the first 'crush' was over that I started to find a voice of my own and learned to say (though I found and still find it very hard): "no, because I don't want you to come over now" and stop giving excuses (we have to go somewhere, I'm really tired, ...).

I guess I was mostly confused by the difference in acting and speaking, as I can still be.
He said that he was okay with contact a couple of times a week, but what he did was ask attention or visits multiple times a week.
He said that he would continue to invest time and energy in me and our relationship, but when Red came in his life, what he did was stop texting, mailing, calling and wanting to talk to me.

Maybe Leo can only work with "all or nothing", but wasn't aware of this himself, and certainly wasn't able to openly communicate about his needs, otherwise he wouldn't have agreed to a relationship where he knew he would not play a primary role.
Why did I keep on going? I suppose I kept on hoping we could find a way where it would work for both of us, so I hoped he would find a poly primary to fill in his need for that. But it didn't work out that way.

 

[polycurious123]

That makes a lot of sense. I've learned actions speak louder than words.

Woukd you shed more light on your perspective? You said you were very much in love with him, but only wanted to see him once a week. You didn't want to see him more. If you loved him, why didn't you want to see him more?

I understand the secondary role and it's different for everyone how they want to make agreements and times. I can see feeling casually for your secondary and limiting time because you're not interested in giving more. But when deep feeling and love is involved, to say you don't want to see your lover seems harsh and unloving.

I don't want to spend time with you, but I love you? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[KC43]

I love Hubby, but I don't always want to spend time with him. He has some personality quirks that can be quite grating, and if we spend too much time together, and especially if we go out on a date or something, those quirks push me over the brink into irritation or flat-out losing my temper, which kind of ruins the experience for both of us. That doesn't mean I love him any less; it just means that our personalities don't completely mesh in some ways, and sometimes it helps keep our love and relationship stronger if we *aren't* together a lot.

Likewise, I was in love with Guy, the first boyfriend I had after I came out as poly. But he has a very intense personality and can be somewhat overbearing, which twigged my PTSD radar. I loved him, I cared deeply for him, I thought about him constantly--but phone calls with him were difficult, and when I was face to face with him, half the time I wanted to run away.

Neither of those kinds of things might be factors for Lupa. But on the other hand, the amount of time you're willing and able to spend with someone is, in my opinion, completely irrelevant to whether or how much you love them, and how much you love someone, or whether you fall in love with them in the first place, hasn't got a single thing to do with how much time you see them. If it did, people wouldn't fall in love with someone they're in a long-distance relationship with, when they NEVER get to see each other.

Aside from which, some people like to have time ALONE. If they're in two relationships, in order to get alone time, they have to *not* be with their partners sometimes. Some people have a huge number of demands on their time, and it's difficult to carve out time for everyone and everything. You can fall in love with someone and still not want to spend every waking moment with them.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Hi polycurious123,So I noticed he kept on trying (consciously or unconsciously) to 'pull me in', ask more time of me. As I was very much in love with him, I also gave him more time and attention than I could spare, but I neglected hobbies, friendships and myself to give this. He got used to the fact that when he asked something of me (can you come over tomorrow? can I come over? can I sleep over?), I would probably accept it, unless I had a very good reason not to. That wasn't a good choice.
It was only after the intensity of the first 'crush' was over that I started to find a voice of my own and learned to say (though I found and still find it very hard): "no, because I don't want you to come over now" and stop giving excuses (we have to go somewhere, I'm really tired, ...).

Lupa, I am dealing with a similar situation (though on a much smaller scale and without the substance abuse and mental illness involved). I just wanted to add my own "way to go!" on finding that voice and learning to stand up for your own needs. Still a work in progress for me

I don't want to spend time with you, but I love you? That doesn't make sense to me.

To add to what KC43 said, sometimes it's not "I don't want to spend time with you" but "I don't have the time to see you". I see my boyfriend once or twice a week, and just carving that amount of time from my schedule is difficult. I have work, a husband, friends, extended family, pets, hobbies... Plus I need to sleep

Typically seeing him means giving up some down time with my husband and my workout that day. Those are the most discretionary things so they are what goes to make room for dating. But I can't do that every day or even every other day. My evening down time with my husband is important to me, and so is getting enough exercise. (I would actually welcome seeing my BF more often if, say, he was open to joining me when I go out with friends or coming to the house in the evenings while my husband is home, but he prefers one-on-one time.)

For people who are used to mono/escalator relationships, equating time spent together with love is a hard habit to break. I'm still working on accepting that it's ok for me to have limits on how much time and energy I can give to a boyfriend. But it's something I very much need to do, if I'm going to continue having multiple relationships without going completely insane.

 

[Lupa]

Would you shed more light on your perspective? You said you were very much in love with him, but only wanted to see him once a week. You didn't want to see him more. If you loved him, why didn't you want to see him more?

I don't want to spend time with you, but I love you? That doesn't make sense to me.

Oh, it's not so much about what I wanted, it's what was best for everyone. If I just listened to my feelings when I was head over heels in love, I would have spent every waking minute by Leo's side, completely intertwining with him. But if I had done that:
- I would have hurt Bear so much, and we probably wouldn't be together anymore;
- I would have lost myself, as I tend to forget who I am when I'm deeply in love;
- Leo wouldn't have had any time to himself and he wouldn't have been able to look for another lover which he said he wanted.

In a mono relationship you have more possibilities to mesh together like that, but in poly it just isn't feasable, unless you all live together and can do everything as a group.

Sure, when you're in love, you want to spend a lot of time together. But that isn't always what's wisest. When Bear and I were in love we did everything together. I mean literally everything, the only thing we did apart was go to class as we took different courses. This lasted for about six years (Bear and I are unusually compatible, so we almost never fight and are very comfortable doing a lot of stuff together), then I started to notice I put things off because Bear wouldn't or couldn't do them with me. We talked about being joined at the hip like this and agreed we should make 'no-couple time' for ourselves, if only a little. That's how I started to go to bellydancing class, which is women-only (not that I wouldn't have paid good money to see Bear bellydancing ).
But I understand now this is not common. I thought things would be just as easy with Leo, but soon learned that if we spent too much time together, we would start irritating one another. No good times.
So it's as KC43 says, I try to manage my life (work, friends, hobbies, alone time) and try to make choices based on what is best for everyone, including myself.

 

[Lupa]

Lupa, I am dealing with a similar situation (though on a much smaller scale and without the substance abuse and mental illness involved). I just wanted to add my own "way to go!" on finding that voice and learning to stand up for your own needs. Still a work in progress for me

Thank you so much, and in turn I wish you the best of luck in finding your voice and holding on to your own needs and boundaries. I guess it's harder if you're wired to please others and definitely if you somehow put the idea into your head that what your lover wants is more important than what you want, which is what I did. But remember: your partners are also better off if you do and give what you want do to and give, because that makes you a genuine person, and that's who they fell in love with .

 

[kdt26417]

Hey Lupa,

Just wanted to add my WTG and say that I think you did the right thing with respect to Leo. Best wishes to you going forward.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[Lupa]

Hey Kevin,

Thank you so much! It's a hard road, I have never broken things off completely with someone (no contact whatsoever) but now I'm starting to think this might be the only way to deal with Leo.

After a week of silence I sent him a very short e-mail, just saying that I didn't hate him and still wanted to talk, but I wanted to wait until we could have a level (not overemotional) and constructive conversation.
After that, two days quiet. And then, suddenly, the biggest shit storm I have ever received in my inbox. I have seen him behave this way toward others, but never thought he would do it to me. He basically called me a two-faced bitch that only showed up for the good times, accused me of never being there for him, talking behind his back, not standing up for him etc. It was so full of hate and bitterness, paranoia, ...

And the weird thing is, I didn't get mad, not even when I read how he called me a bitch, or a hag, or what have you. I don't see the benefit of getting angry or replying to hate or insults. I told my sister and she got mad because she doesn't like her little sis being called a bitch, I told Bear when he got home from work and he took it really hard. He trusted Leo to come into our lives, which wasn't easy for him, and he says he's completely done with Leo now that he sunk so low as to blame me for everything that went wrong in our relationship. But the only thing I thought when I read his mail was: "Wow, it's so sad that he sees me like this, it must be so lonely in the dark corners of his mind... I really hate how this is evolving, now he seems to need to hate me, and all I wanted was to part as friends. And the saddest part is that I have no control over how he sees me, and there's nothing I can do (I think) to change his mind."

Next job in therapy: learning and daring to be angry! One step at a time, I'll get there .

 

[GalaGirl]

Ugh.

Not fun to receive. But good for you in saying nothing and remaining detached. I think you might be right in that zero contact may be the only way to go with Leo.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Sorry Leo went off on you like that. I suppose things didn't work out like he expected and so he is looking for a scapegoat.

Hang in there.

 

[WhatHappened]

I was in a situation where I was the "Leo"...

"....From the get-go I had this idea of seeing Leo alone about once a week.... It has been a constant struggle not to let Leo too close into the rest of my life...."

One of my partners felt towards me the way you felt towards Leo - only wanted to see me once a week, you didn't want to get too close into the rest of your life, didn't want to give me the attention I needed.

So my question is - Why even be with someone when it was a "constant struggle"? ...why would you want to still see Leo if you didn't want to give him attention, found him exhausting, only wanted to see him once a week?

Hi polycurious123,
I had made it clear to Leo, from the beginning...that I wanted to have a secondary relationship with him. .... I honestly communicated with Leo that I could only offer him a limited amount of time...(Saturday when Bear is working, a couple of hours during the week)
...
It was only after the intensity of the first 'crush' was over that I started to find a voice of my own and learned to say (though I found and still find it very hard): "no, because I don't want you to come over now" and stop giving excuses (we have to go somewhere, I'm really tired, ...).
...

Maybe Leo can only work with "all or nothing", but wasn't aware of this himself, and certainly wasn't able to openly communicate about his needs, otherwise he wouldn't have agreed to a relationship where he knew he would not play a primary role.

...when deep feeling and love is involved, to say you don't want to see your lover seems harsh and unloving.

I don't want to spend time with you, but I love you? That doesn't make sense to me.

As I follow this thread, Leo is accused of being a narcissist, and behaving as if it's all about him, of using you as a 'supply.' I think it's quite possible that Leo felt the reverse: that it was all about the poly partner, being there on call once a week when she wanted him, and using him as her supply.

It seems to me that Leo has communicated his needs quite clearly. He asked over and over for more time.

It seems he's in a catch-22. If he never said he wanted more time, and finally simply walked away, he'd be guilty of not asking for what he needs. Yet he's being judged for asking. And when he did ask, he was told, "I don't want to see you right now." Ouch! Can you imagine how that might leave him feeling a bit like a toy on the shelf--available when you want him, keep quiet when you don't? And how that might seem to him that in fact it's all about you?

I'm not saying you meant it that way, but asking can it be seen how it might often feel from the secondaries' seat?

...sometimes it's not "I don't want to spend time with you" but "I don't have the time to see you". I see my boyfriend once or twice a week, and just carving that amount of time from my schedule is difficult. I have work, a husband, friends, extended family, pets, hobbies... Plus I need to sleep

Typically seeing him means giving up some down time with my husband and my workout that day. Those are the most discretionary things so they are what goes to make room for dating. ....

Again...can you see how this feels from the other person's point of view? I want you there when I have time for you. Part of the reason it worked for me with XBF as long as it did (2 years) was because he valued me enough to have time for me. His actions matched his words.

And to me the key difference is in the last line quoted: 'make room for dating.' 'Dating' and a person are two different entities. Dating is a hobby, a thing we do. A person is...well, a person, with feelings, needs, emotions of their own, and if we're going to involve them in romance, in hearts and feelings, we shouldn't be surprised if they fall in love and actually want more time with us. We certainly shouldn't judge them as a narcissist for wanting more than once a week.

For people who are used to mono/escalator relationships, equating time spent together with love is a hard habit to break.

I don't think equating time together with love is a 'habit.' I especially don't think it's a habit that needs to be broken. I don't think wanting to be with someone you love is simply some mono/escalator relationship falacy.

In fact, just looking at the answers here, clearly most married poly partners want lots of time together with those they love...with their spouses. So if love=wanting to be together is not true, why the desire to spend the majority of the week with the spouse? Why not tell that to the spouse, and split the time together evenly between the two people they love?

 

[WhatHappened]

My post above, btw, is not meant to be critical of anyone, but rather a comment on how it feels on the other side of the fence, and I think poly relationships can only get stronger the more everyone thinks about how it feels to everyone involved.

 

[Magdlyn]

Hey Kevin,

Thank you so much! It's a hard road, I have never broken things off completely with someone (no contact whatsoever) but now I'm starting to think this might be the only way to deal with Leo.

After a week of silence I sent him a very short e-mail, just saying that I didn't hate him and still wanted to talk, but I wanted to wait until we could have a level (not overemotional) and constructive conversation.
After that, two days quiet. And then, suddenly, the biggest shit storm I have ever received in my inbox. I have seen him behave this way toward others, but never thought he would do it to me. He basically called me a two-faced bitch that only showed up for the good times, accused me of never being there for him, talking behind his back, not standing up for him etc. It was so full of hate and bitterness, paranoia, ...

And the weird thing is, I didn't get mad, not even when I read how he called me a bitch, or a hag, or what have you. I don't see the benefit of getting angry or replying to hate or insults. I told my sister and she got mad because she doesn't like her little sis being called a bitch, I told Bear when he got home from work and he took it really hard. He trusted Leo to come into our lives, which wasn't easy for him, and he says he's completely done with Leo now that he sunk so low as to blame me for everything that went wrong in our relationship. But the only thing I thought when I read his mail was: "Wow, it's so sad that he sees me like this, it must be so lonely in the dark corners of his mind... I really hate how this is evolving, now he seems to need to hate me, and all I wanted was to part as friends. And the saddest part is that I have no control over how he sees me, and there's nothing I can do (I think) to change his mind."

Next job in therapy: learning and daring to be angry! One step at a time, I'll get there .

Go no contact. Another member here recommended 40 days to me, when I was breaking up with a narcissist partner. So I tried it. After 40 days past, I found I had no urge to get in touch!

But ironically, 2 more days later, the man in question (the narc), contacted me, "hoovering," to see if we could be friends, or FWBs, or whatever. We planned to meet 2 days hence.

In those 2 days, he had positive experiences with his married couple OSOs. (They'd broken up twice with him while he and I were dating, but had now taken him back, of which I was unaware.) So by the time we met, he didn't need my attention for his narc supply, attention, sex. And he ended up once again triangulating me with them, withholding certain information when I asked, only to deliver it as a punch in the face to me in the most hurtful way. He told me sadly, he'd had no sex in a month, whining how he might never have sex again (since he was 61 years old and losing his looks or desirability perhaps), eliciting encouragement from me to not give up, to have confidence in his own attractiveness. THEN he told me he'd actually had sex with the male of the couple 3 days that week, while the wife wasn't allowed to because of jealousy on the husband's part.

This ended up grossing me out so much-- the solicitation of a compliment, and the triangulating he was doing with his married partners, having no care for the wife's feelings of being "not allowed" to see him... (I'd actually gotten narcissist vibes from the husband when I'd met him, as well...) I couldn't stand to be with him once more second, and literally jogged thru the park we were in, to my car. He followed, amused, and asked for a hug. Ugh. We were all just specimens to him. He was barely human.

So! Long story short, go no contact. He isn't interested in you. Don't pour more energy into his black hole, supply seeking, vacuum. There is no point. He is just using you.