Lack of attention

Ivylein said:
Are you involved in this situation?

Have you offered any advice of your own?

Do you realize a full 28% of everything you've ever posted is to rag on me?

I'm seeing InTheDark as a guy who wants to save his marriage, and is coming at it in an adversarial way. That's not going to fair well for him.

If he doesn't want to change the way he's handling this in order to make it work, he might as well go see a lawyer tomorrow.

Back off.
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The only point I wish to make with regard to him trying to save his marriage, is that I feel that he has swung very dramatically back and forth between a couple of extremes:

- Extreme submission and capitulation, which has caused his wife to view him as weak, contemptible, a doormat.
- Extreme emotional turbulence leading to demands, fights, adversarial behavior on his part.

Now he is TRYING to find some kind of a sensible middle ground and negotiate with sanity a solution to his marital issues that includes respect for his needs, and satisfaction of his wife's needs... but those above issues have been building up for a whole lot of years and it remains to be seen where exactly she stands. I think that he is afraid to lose her for reasons I've already stated and she is afraid that if she cuts him loose then she won't have a financial safety net anymore. This Dom guy sure isn't going to pay for her half of anything. I honestly predict that if her new job pays enough for her to be independent, she will leave, because her behavior tells me that she doesn't have enough respect left for husband and marriage to even really want to fix it. In the meantime, she figures she can have her cake and eat it, too. It is so hard, even if he makes a complete overhaul on himself, to be seen as someone new and different after being with her for so long.

I say this as someone who has been in an 18 year (failed) marriage. If I had told my ex, two or three years ago, "Look...this is the problem." That I hated this or that thing he did, the way he dressed, needed him to be in better shape or take depression meds, that I wanted a Dominant man and needed him to act that way for me, etc.... He may have TRIED to be what I needed, but underneath I'd know that the real him, that I'd lost respect for due to bad and codependent behavior, was lurking in there waiting to fall back into old habits. Playing a role is not enough. You can't fake it when someone knows you too well, or is completely convinced they'd be happier without you.

So I don't know if there is hope for this marriage or not. Honestly...I'd have to ask the wife.

And on that note...Inthedark, have you considered marriage counseling? Do you think she'd be willing to do that?
 
I think it would just be an act of mercy on her part to ask for a divorce. It seems as if she is performing every act of cruelty possible to get him to sever ties. She is only sticking around because she needs him financially and to help care for the kids. Speaking of which, I wonder how old they are and how much turbulence they have seen.
 
powerpuffgrl1969 said:
I think it would just be an act of mercy on her part to ask for a divorce. It seems as if she is performing every act of cruelty possible to get him to sever ties. She is only sticking around because she needs him financially and to help care for the kids. Speaking of which, I wonder how old they are and how much turbulence they have seen.
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I have not kept track of any exact numbers I was given, but I'm going to put him in his late 30's at least, and her perhaps slightly younger, guess they've been together at least 10 years, maybe 10 and change, and he's been deployed a lot on top of being (sorry man) broken and put back together by the military brainwashing machine...which I only mention because it really does change people, for better or for worse. Certain things I think civilians are used to dealing with become nearly incomprehensible for many military personnel after functioning in that environment for a long time. It's a very different world.

She has had to be strong and independent many times. But she's always had his paycheck and military entitlements for her and her kids. Now he has his 20 years in and he's retiring (and HUGE congrats to him for making it) and he's got to face a world where you have to make all of your own decisions, where there is no rank and no orders, it's all hints and conjecture, no easy answers. His stability is already being shaken to its foundation, and on top of that his marriage is in distress.

Oh, and did ya know that if he dies, even by his own hand, she might get half a mil out of it? That might continue even when he's out thanks to VGLI, more or less. There is stuff that exists in soldier-land that would blow the minds of a lot of people who don't know...and it definitely creates a "normal" that isn't like anyone else's who lives a civilian life.

Both of them are having that normal yanked out from under them.

But for Inthedark here, the single most important thing I can see is for him to understand, believe, repeat it like a damn mantra...is that he's got tremendous value, as a human being...not as a soldier, not as a husband, as a MAN. His value is not contingent on her. He's not used to standing strong alone, and he might have to learn how, and it's HARD.
 
Spork said:
But for Inthedark here, the single most important thing I can see is for him to understand, believe, repeat it like a damn mantra...is that he's got tremendous value, as a human being...not as a soldier, not as a husband, as a MAN. His value is not contingent on her. He's not used to standing strong alone, and he might have to learn how, and it's HARD.
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Amen!
 
I hate this

So after a long day on Tuesday of being the bigger person, things broke down. On Tuesday night, my wife, as instructed by her dom, sat down with me and showed me her list of rules. She also asked if she could see the conversation that Kip and I had. I had nothing to hide and was not ashamed of the way that I conducted myself, so as I read the rules, she read the conversation.

One of the conditions of my agreement with Kip was that my wife would be respectful and polite. She was anything but. I could have tattled on her, but that would have been childish, and it would have only served to breed more resentment.

She was not pleased with the conversation between Kip and me. She would not go into detail as to what bothered her, but I am making an assumption that it was because I told him some things that she didn't want him to know. I asked him several times to put himself in my shoes (which he didn't). I remained calm, courteous and polite in the face of numerous threats and attempts at blackmail.

I think that she was also upset that Kip and I had discussed a deal that affected her without consulting her.

Well, it all culminated in her crying and getting upset and defensive. She told me that I had violated her wishes and that I had injected myself into the middle of her relationship. I fired back, and although I got nothing from it, I got my words out there, so maybe they are on her mind now.

I asked why he was doing this. I told her that it was destroying her personality and changing her from a fiercely strong and independent woman that I loved and that everyone who knows her loves and making her a total stranger. I told her that I thought she was betraying herself as well as me, and was throwing away 16 years for a man she has never actually met.

I asked her for feedback on my behavior. I asked her if allowing him to require me to ask permission from him for sex was really what she wanted, and if so, why she was ok with that. I told her that contrary to what he had told her, and said to me, that he was in fact trying to manipulate me and make me his sub as well. I asked her if she wanted our marriage to fail and if she wanted her relationship with Kip to bother me.

Of course I got no answers to those questions. But they are out there and now she has the choice to either consider them or ignore them.

I then told her that I thought the way that she was made to give me oral sex and then tell me that I now needed to ask permission was base and disgusting and that it was very disrespectful and offensive and that she would have gotten little to no resistance if she had just sat down and talked with me.

She then opened just a little and told me that she did not like that, either. Of course, when I asked her why then had she done it, there was no answer. Then, ladies and gents, I caved. My strength dissipated. I went to my computer and I sent this man a message, saying that in the best interest of my wife's happiness, and because she had so strenuously requested that I not be involved in any way with this thing, that I would remove myself from the situation. I have decided to give them both what they want and see how it plays out.

I hate it. I really do. I am still doing what I want to do as far as trying to please and take care of my wife. She asked me yesterday, prefacing the question with the phrase "I don't want to start a fight," what I thought of him. What I said was that she didn't want to know. What I should have said was that it didn't matter, and I didn't want my opinion, good or bad, to affect their relationship.

Fact of the matter is, I hate him. I wish he would get into an accident or something. He is an arrogant prick. He is nothing like a real Dom, nothing like what you read in the lifestyle books or hear from real Doms at the club or on Fetlife. He threatens and coerces. He is addicted to the power that he feels he has. He fails to realize that power is a myth and that the only power he has is given to him by his sub and can be taken away at any time. He dresses this all up in a polite and intelligent package. But at the heart, he is just a sad little man who I feel is trying to compensate for something.

But I will remain on the moral high road. I will let my wife have what she so desperately wants. I will do my best to protect my children and myself. But I fear that my efforts will be in vain. I feel that I will lose my wife either, through divorce, or maybe even due to something far worse. I feel it deep inside that at some point I will have to travel to Chicago to identify and claim her body or to help her rebuild her psyche after being raped. Neither are very attractive thoughts. But I am resigned to the fact that I cannot save her.
 
Merely the fact that she is supplying potentially damaging images, photos, videos, and information about herself most likely, to a person who has exhibited threatening behavior, or mentioned any hint of desire to blackmail you in any way, is showing VERY poor judgement on her part. One day she's going to realize that she's making some pretty serious mistakes here.

I really wish you could get here out to my BDSM club, Voodoo, to see what healthy D/s couples look like. She AND this guy are acting like ignorant 50 Shades rejects. Neither of you needs to participate in anything, or be seeking other partners in the scene, but I think discussion groups, getting to know people... I wish I could help convince her, because I really think it would be a good idea.

However, she is an adult. And ultimately, you are going to need to put your own oxygen mask on yourself first. *Hugs* Hang in there.
 
Hi, could you be perhaps a little more specific? I don't really get what happened. Anyway, it looks like a huge mess.

What did you discuss with Kip? Not necessarily details, but rather if the agreement was acceptable for you.
How about the list of rules, how did you feel about that? Was it worse than what you expected?

My strength dissipated. I went to my computer and I sent this man a message saying that in the best interest of my wife's happiness, and because she had so strenuously requested that I not be involved in any way with this thing, that I would remove myself from the situation.
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What do you mean?? Does it mean you cancelled your hard-earned agreement with him, giving him a free hand to do whatever he wishes, however it affects you? Are you really going to submit to the relationship of someone you don't trust, who disrespects you?

Or, does this mean you plan to remove yourself from the situation to a trial separation, until she learns how to be in a DS relationship?
BTW, why the heck would you tell him it's for your wife's happiness, when you believe it's so bad for her? Does that really help her? I think it would be helpful to be more authentic overall. :(

In addition:
I then told her that I thought the way that she was made to give me oral sex, and then tell me that I now needed to ask permission, was base and disgusting, very disrespectful and offensive, and that she would have gotten little to no resistance if she had just sat down and talked with me. She then opened just a little and told me that she did not like that, either. Of course, when I asked her why had she done it, there was no answer.
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Your wife needs to learn to know and keep her boundaries in a DS relationship. It is relatively easy to give in to a request you actually find not-so-pleasant later, when you are aroused in a nice conversation, or in a worse case, out of the desire to be a "better sub." It's a learning process with every new kind of submission. I've been on it for like 2 years, and I still make mistakes (like agree to something, and realize later that I shouldn't have). She may feel guilty after crossing her own boundaries, and that's ok.
You could gently encourage her to do only what brings her satisfaction.
Anyway, if he is that disrespectful, I give their relationship 3-6 months.

What I said was that she didn't want to know. What I should have said was that it didn't matter, and I didn't want my opinion, good or bad, to affect their relationship. Fact of the matter is, I hate him.
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You could still tell her if you two ever have a calm talk. "Remember you asked me about my opinion on him? Do you still want to hear the answer?" Then you can tell her anything you think is a good to tell and in line with yourself.

I feel that at some point I will have to travel to Chicago to identify and claim her body, or to help her rebuild her psyche after being raped.
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Please don't panic. :(
 
Spork said:
I really wish you could get her out to my BDSM club, Voodoo, to see what healthy D/s couples look like. She AND this guy are acting like ignorant 50 Shades rejects.
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Exactly. :D That boring movie (didn't read the book) came into my mind too.
 
Tinwen said:
Exactly. :D That boring movie (didn't read the book) came into my mind too.
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Yeah, I haven't bothered to watch/read it, but that's the feeling I get when people are trying to do power exchange stuff without first taking the time to understand how to do it safely and smartly. The one common thread in all of the acronyms I've ever seen anyone use for this activity:

SSC: Safe, Sane, Consensual
RACK: Risk-Aware Consensual Kink
PRICK: Personal Responsibility In Consensual Kink

All have ONE WORD IN COMMON...and all along, I feel like the wife and Kip have been violating Inthedark's consent by expecting or demanding that he play along with things he doesn't want, under duress of possibly losing his marriage, breaking his family, "play along with all this or else" kind of coercion. The whole thing smells wrong.

The notion of explicit amateur porn being sent to this person... Man, I don't trust people that I know very well who have been a part of my real-life LIFE, with those kinds of materials easily. I am a Mom. I have a career. Has she any concept of how that stuff can be used against her? Is she posting that stuff on Fetlife? Does she realize anyone can just screenshot from there? Once you give that out, it's out. It can wind up absolutely anywhere. How would she feel if her family, parents, kids, saw those pictures? I've been on the receiving end of threats to share explicit pics with my family members, let me tell you, it's alarming and enormously violating.

I just don't think she knows what she's playing with here or how it could end up. And that's before you even start to consider her actually seeing him in person, at some point. She should be concerned about playing safe, if only for her kids' sake.
 
Tinwen, the short version-- On Monday night, my wife was given a task to give me a blow job, and record it, and after it was done, to tell me that from that point on, I would have to ask permission from her dom if I wanted to have sex with her. She had requested that I not have any contact with him, so I asked her if I was to request directly or if I was to go through her.

The next morning, I realized that the video was for him. I hadn't been aware the night before and thought it might be for me. So I texted her that I didn't consent to it being shared. I don't know how or why, but she then set up a group chat between the three of us on Facebook. Not being comfortable in the group chat, for fear that I would upset my wife, I chatted privately with Kip for most of the day on Tuesday, and he even sent me a friend request.

During this chat, he was generally polite, but he did threaten me on several occasions, stating that if I did not give my consent to certain activities that he would instruct my wife to never have sex with me again, and that my life would be very uncomfortable. Ultimately we agreed that I would consent to their activities if I received certain concessions from my wife, namely to know her rules, and for her to communicate in an open and honest fashion with me, among some other little things.

That night, she read the conversation and it made her very angry at me. Because I didn't want her to be angry, I then agreed just to butt out and let things progress however they were going to. Basically I gave up.

Does this mean, you cancelled your hard-earned agreement with him? Giving him a free hand to do whatever he wishes, however it affects you? Are you really going to submit to the relationship of someone you don't trust, who disrespects you?
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This is exactly what it means.

BTW, why the heck would you tell him it's for your wife's happiness, when you believe it's so bad to her? Does that really help her? I think it would be helpful to be more authentic overall.
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Because I want her to be happy, and she thinks that this guy is what she needs to be happy. To her, nothing I think matters. She has completely checked out, but will not give me the courtesy to say so. I am a nuisance to her and I do not need to be taken into consideration.

You could still tell her, if you two ever have a calm talk. "Remember you asked me about my opinion on him? Do you still want to hear the answer?" Then you can tell her anything you think is a good to tell and in line with yourself.
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She will no longer listen to me. She has projected her own thoughts and ideas on to me and there is nothing that I can say or do to change her mind. Everyday I try to do something to prove my love to her. She asked me not long ago to give her more romantic gestures. I get up at 4:30 every morning so I can iron her clothes for work and cook her breakfast. I skipped paying some bills last month so I could lavish her with gifts. I give her back and foot massages. I help with the tasks from her dom. I stay quiet. I leave the room when she needs me to.

Yesterday I bought her a pair of ruby earrings and a ruby bracelet. When she opened them, she cried. I thought that she really loved them and that I finally did something right. Less than an hour later, she was treating me like dirt again.

This morning she informed me that she was going to be punished tonight because she didn't do her task yesterday because she felt awkward asking me to leave the room. I told her that I will have no problem doing anything she asks, but that just angered her more. I sent her a message telling her that I was sorry and ashamed to have put her in that position. She thanked me and told me she awaits Sir's punishment.

I have been in denial for a long time now but I am coming around to the notion that I have lost her forever to this man that she has never even met. There is nothing more that I can do or give. I hit rock bottom weeks ago. Now I'm even lower than that.
 
Whoa there!

ITD, instead of NOT paying bills in order to lavish your abusive wife with gifts, you need to be saving and separating your money so that you can provide for your children and afford a lawyer. You need to start getting into self-preservation mode. Like, right now.
 
Spork said:
I feel like the wife and Kip have been violating Inthedark's consent by expecting or demanding that he play along with things he doesn't want, under duress of possibly losing his marriage, breaking his family, "play along with all this or else" kind of coercion. The whole thing smells wrong.
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The thing is, it smells wrong even for her. I guess it's been really like 50 Shades: she gets a contract with rules she is expected to follow no matter what, very little of her real input. And most importantly, extremely deep submission from the first day required. Like acting out (his?) fantasies which should not be acted on without months/years of preparation and trust building. Maybe she craves submission much more than me, but hell, it's taken me more than a year to start acting on any out of bed submission, and... if you have a glimpse on the second post in my recent thread, we failed greatly to do the agreements properly .;) That's part of why I said I must be working on boundaries too .:rolleyes:
 
Inthedark: may I humbly and lovingly suggest that you do two things, ASAP?

1. Get clear on what you want, so that you can be assertive on what it is that you want and get in the driver's seat. Nobody is driving this bus, either you or your wife. It feels a bit like you've handed the keys to the asylum to the sickest inmate. :eek: This is not healthy for your marriage or for your kids.

2. Irrespective of who's driving the bus, for your communication with your wife to have any chance of being productive, may I recommend Marshall Rosenberg's NVC model of communication? You can read whole books and do lengthy courses to get proficient, but at a very basic level, it involves trying to model your communications as follows:

a. An observation, as a camera or completely objective observer would see it, devoid of emotion. e.g. "When you ask me to request permission for sex" (vs the emotive version, which might be something like "When you make me less important than your Dom")

b. A feeling, using "I" rather than "you" statements, taking responsibility for your feelings. e.g. "I feel devalued as a husband" (vs the less-preferred "you make me less of a husband")

c. The unmet need you want met, again using "I" statements. e.g. "I need to feel important in your life" (vs the less-preferred "you need to put me first")

d. A request, rather than a demand/ultimatum. e.g. "Would you be willing to consider renegotiating this particular aspect of your relationship with your Dom?" (vs "This is unacceptable")

Putting it all together, can you see that:

"When you ask me to request permission for sex, I feel devalued as a husband. I need to feel important in your life. Would you be willing to consider renegotiating this particular aspect of your relationship with your Dom?"

might produce a better outcome than something like (and I'm not suggesting this is how it went):

"When you make me feel less important than your Dom, you make me feel like less of a husband. You need to put me first. This is unacceptable."

The latter - even though it may seem like it's very similar and not unreasonable - produces a far more defensive response in the recipient and is less likely to achieve what you want.

Non-violent communication is a really awesome tool. There are heaps of resources on it at www.cnvc.org. The list of feelings and needs is particularly helpful. It takes a bit of practice, but it's oh-so-worth it.
 
Inthedark,

I'm sorry. Your wife seems like she's been looking for a way out of your marriage and has found it through this abusive asshole. He's not an ethical dominant at all, but you know that. You know what? Stop talking to him. He's not important.

Your wife has chosen this path. I don't know why, but she has. She has agreed to this nonsense. That's what critical here. She is doing this to you. The excuse is that 'he' told her, but that's nonsense. She's using this to fulfill something going on internally for her. Who knows what that is? But she is responsible for it.

(And why are you acting submissive to him or her? Do you have cuckold desires? Humiliation fantasies? Nothing wrong with that. This is just a very destructive way to fulfill a fantasy.)

I realize that this situation is meant to humiliate you and drive you away. That does seem to be the point, I'm sorry to say. But just because someone treats you like dirt, does not make you dirt. Her treatment of you indicates your worth to her but it has zero to do with your innate worthiness. You deserve better. Your wife wants out. Let her go. Save yourself and be there for your children. I know this is not the outcome you want, but this sorry situation has reached the point of saving yourself. You are believing the nonsense that you are crap, worthless, because of their treatment and words to you. This is dangerous to you and to your children, who need at least one stable parent. (I assume they are minor children.)

Grieve the loss of the woman you thought you knew. That person is gone, perhaps for good. It's ok to be devastated, hurt, angry, and in despair. This is an awful situation. But fight against what seems to be your natural tendency of passivity. Now is not the time to give up on yourself. This marriage, yes, probably. But not you. You are not your marriage. Your self is more than the part that loves your wife. Give yourself the chance to find out who that person is by getting out of this godawful situation. Free yourself, let her do what she needs to do, and take care of yourself and your children.

P.S. Usually I agree that non-violent communication is a fine technique. However, it relies upon two (or more) people who are offering good faith. That is not the case here - neither the wife nor the faux dom are acting in good faith. In fact, this is classic abusive techniques to break someone down, and destroy their will, so they do whatever the abuser wants. Non-violent communication (like many other communication techniques) can be used by abusers against the abused, and therefore may not be the best idea here.

I do suggest Inthedark get counseling immediately on his own.
 
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I pretty much agree with opalescent ...
 
opalescent said:
Free yourself, let her do what she needs to do, and take care of yourself and your children.
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This. Even if you don't feel you deserve better. Even if you feel defeated enough to just stick around while she self-destructs, your children need a stable parent (and they don't need to be in the middle of your wife's implosion).

powerpuffgrl1969 has the right idea. Protect yourself and your kids from this fallout.
 
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opalescent said:
Your wife wants out. Let her go. Save yourself and be there for your children.
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This once more.


Her nutty D/S relationship is just a distraction in all of this. Yes, it is nutty (wouldn't pass the Official Ethical Kink Sniff Test by a mile) and it has nothing to do with your home, other than make you nutty to the extent you're buying all of this. The power that you are giving this guy is preposterous.

"Your wife wants out. Let her go. Save yourself and be there for your children."
 
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This whole situation sounds like a bad soap opera. She's treating you like shit, and you're just taking it. At some point, you are going to have to own that decision. But I hope you just start making better decisions in future instead.

In your shoes, I'd be telling Kip to go fuck himself, and telling my wife that I will not be asking a third party for permission to have sex with her. If that aspect of your marital life together is off the table from now on, on the say-so of a dude she hasn't even met, then I'd be pursuing divorce and full/fair custody of the kids the very next day. Honestly, her judgement is majorly impaired if she's taking this so seriously.

Also, in my eyes, her giving him footage of you two being intimate with one another without your consent is a criminal offence. I'd consider reporting all of this when filing for divorce. I'd also start confiding in people in my own life (friends, family) so I could get their support.

Maybe she won't listen to you. Maybe she has checked out already, as you suspect. But perhaps being confronted by mutual friends' and loved ones' perspectives will help her to realise what a top-class idiot she is being.
 
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