Manipulation or just newbie mistakes?

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ELizzy

New member
I'm Lizzy, I'm 33, in a very happy marriage of 5 years, with a toddler son and another child on the way. Hubs ("EP") and I decided to try non-monogamy about 4 months ago but two days ago he decided he was "not willing and/or unable" to meet my expectations.

I'm still interested in giving it a go and feel disappointed that our relationship and communication may not be as strong as I had thought. I was so confident that we were a couple that could do this.

The short version of the missteps (and possible manipulation) as I see them:

I believe I was clear with my expectations from the beginning - no lying to anyone involved. Complete and total honesty.
When I discovered that EP was lying to girls he was trying to hook up with (nothing too major for the most part, lies he called "nature of the beast" in the dating world, such as saying you like something you don't), and especially after one of those lies was about being into someone he clearly wasn't (just to sleep with her), I became less comfortable and began asking to read Tinder messages, and pretty much just be informed every time he communicated with potential dates.

This did not happen. He maintains it was pure forgetfulness, but I found he was talking to people several times and not telling me. We would discuss it each time and each time I would reiterate my expectations and explain that his forgetting was not acceptable.

This obviously made him feel like he had less autonomy than before, which he grew to resent.

Then a few very hurtful things happened all with the same girl, really the only girl he's been with the entirety of our brief dive into this lifestyle. I'll call her Jaime.

Jaime was originally also in a non-monogamous relationship and she and EP hit it off right away. I was genuinely happy for EP and thought Jaime seemed cool, though a bit self-indulgent with her essay-length texts (haha).

First strike: EP lied to me about telling Jaime a very specific few lines about how great I was in bed. Which when he told me I thought was weird and even kind of rude, but figured it was a compliment so just take it. When I caught him in the lie he said he was just trying to reassure me since we were so new to all of this he didn't want me to feel insecure. Obviously, it had the opposite result since I *truly* despise lying. I decided to be understanding and give him the benefit of the doubt and we moved on fairly easily.

Second strike: EP invited Jaime to a big sporting event and I had no idea about it, or even that they had been talking recently, until I asked to read messages from another girl. He realized I would see the messages with Jaime and quickly tried to cover for his memory lapse. I was angry not just because he hadn't told me they were talking, but because he had invited her to a big expensive event without even consulting/telling me. Again we moved on after reiterating my expectations.

Third strike: EP was going to give Jaime a ride to another city 4 hours away, but then learned she was now in a monogamous relationship (she and her boyfriend were having issues). EP and Jaime seemed completely comfortable with being platonic friends, but I had seen flirty messages and photos from her even after she was supposed to be unavailable, and c'mon, they met on Tinder and had sex on the first date. The relationship was based on sex. I was not comfortable with their road trip anymore and asked EP to cancel it. He did, but he told her he was very sorry, that he felt like shit, that he didn't 100% understand where I was coming from, and that he hoped they could still hang out eventually, but was unsure if I would ever come around. Jaime offered to call me, I don't know what she was thinking that would help...

But then she said she understood even though *I was not being rationale.*

EP DID NOT STICK UP FOR ME. In fact he practically agreed with her.

He still hasn't told her that HE has decided to call it quits on the non-monogamy arrangement and they are sending pics and texts.

I'm furious. I'm hurt. I never thought in a million years he would play a divided loyalty game (how I see it) or show any of his dates/girlfriends anything but a united front. AND I feel like I bend over backwards to be rationale. I pride myself in being methodical and reasonable in my approach to this and most aspects of my life. The fact that Jaime was allowed to get away with not only thinking that I'm irrational, but SAY IT to my husband without being checked...

So now, yah, I feel beat up emotionally and like I'm the bad guy in this. But I only went on one date and then decided I wasn't comfortable because I was pregnant. It now feels like he ruined this before I even got a chance to try it out too.

I don't know...
Is this all normal newbie stuff? Is it just hard in the beginning? Setting boundaries and learning as you go, kind of thing?

Was I asking too much? Too involved in his dating? Should I not have cared that he wanted to stay "just friends" with a former lover?

Any feedback would really be appreciated!
Cheers!
 
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ELizzy said:
Was I asking too much? Too involved in his dating?
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Partners are not automatically entitled to read message exchanges with other people and certainly not if there is no knowledge and clear consent from the women on the other end. Your intent in reading his messages is likely an effort to keep things "open and honest," but reading each others' messaging convos usually is controlling, way TMI, unethical if the women/men don't know, and just generally creates icky feelings all around. Poly agreements range from "Go forth and enjoy, but no details, please" to "Let's all have breakfast together" but most poly couples do not read each other's dating and relationship correspondence.




ELizzy said:
.... I only went on one date and then decided I wasn't comfortable because I was pregnant. It now feels like he ruined this before I even got a chance to try it out too.
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It's challenging (but sometimes works) to bring babies into secure, established poly situations, but pregnant and poly dating? Nothing is impossible, but that comes close. Throw in a toddler and you've got a lot of plates spinning. Why are you pushing to open your marriage now? That's my first question for you. Why now?
 
As far as the messaging goes, I never read anything without permission and a lot of it I don't ask to read. Like I said, I was only more intrusive after I felt like maybe he was being... A player? For lack of a better word.
It's a fair question as to whether or not she knew I had access to her messages and I really don't have the answer. I know that she does know however, that our marriage was to be respected as the priority relationship.

I've read a little bit about couple privilege and am aware that it is apparently taboo and/or wrong, but it was how we agreed to enter the open dynamic.

Another fair question as to the timing, but I suppose we figured no time like the present? I'm not really sentimental or jealous by nature, although now I'm wondering if I was being naïve or underestimating the challenges of hormones and parenting while opening up my marriage.
 
It's not forgetfulness if he can see you're about to see information that puts him in a suspicious light and tries to cover his butt.

Was he known as a bit of a player before you?

If this really comes down to unethical behavior on his part, he isn't likely to stop seeking out new people. Why would there be a lack of ethical behavior just in one arena?
And you've had to resort to reading messages to get the real details you couldn't just get by asking. That isn't a good sign.
 
I am sorry you struggle.

I don't know if my opinion helps you any but here's my 2 cents...

  • I don't think pregnancy is the best time to Open. A pregnancy and babies take up a lot of time and energy

  • I think you took your spouse at his Word, when he does not keep it. He made agreements that led to you having certain expectations and he did not follow through.
  • You tried to Open and came to learn a few things about his character/behavior that you do not like. He doesn't take personal responsibility for his behavior and he lies A LOT in many ways.

  • It's understandable to feel upset in this situation. You've been hurt by his actions.

He does not understand basic CONSENT.

  • He lies in order to get people's consent to share sex. That he likes things they like when he doesn't, or that he likes them when he doesn't. He calls this “the nature of the beast” in dating life rather than his being dishonest and misrepresenting himself to dating potentials. (Blame shifts elsewhere and lies to himself)

  • He lied about telling Jaime that you are great in bed when you caught him in that. He did not obtain your consent to be telling her TMI details like that, even if positive. You find this rude and inappropriate.

  • He makes plans to spend money in his dating life without obtaining your consent since you share the budget. (ex: big sporting even with Jaime)

  • Things have changed. You guys are now CLOSED. But he continues to flirt and carry on with Jaime without telling her this change. (lies of omission.) He is being dishonest and misrepresenting himself to her.

He does not understand the basics of MAKING AND KEEPING AGREEMENTS.

  • He makes agreements he does not intend to keep. When he could exercise his autonomy and honestly tell you “No, I do not agree to that” and just not make the agreements in the first place. (bad faith lie)

  • When held accountable to these agreements he made, he lies that he “forgot” to tell you he's got a new potential even when you have talked about it over and over. (bald-faced lie.)


  • He does not own his behavior. He is resentful that you actually hold him accountable to agreements HE made. He sounds like he prefers to blame shift rather than take personal responsibility for his choices/decisions/behaviors.

  • He tries to cover up his texts to Jaime so you don't see them when he agrees to show you texts from another woman. (cover up lie)

I was not comfortable with their road trip anymore and asked EP to cancel it. He did, but he told her he was very sorry, that he felt like shit, that he didn't 100% understand where I was coming from, and that he hoped they could still hang out eventually, but was unsure if I would ever come around. Jaime offered to call me, I don't know what she was thinking that would help...

But then she said she understood even though *I was not being rationale.*

EP DID NOT STICK UP FOR ME. In fact he practically agreed with her.
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Instead of taking it personally that Jaime thinks you are being irrational... Did you stop to wonder if he lied to HER? And that's how she arrives at that conclusion? And that sticking up for you would out in him the lies? He's done cover up lies before.

I actually give her more benefit of the doubt since she offered to call and clear up misunderstandings directly with you and avoid triangulation. That's respectful. That's also opportunity to clear up the lie of omission and tell her you are now Closed because he's damaged trust with his habitual lying. Opportunity to talk and see if he's lied to either of you in other ways. And opportunity to you thank her for her willingness to be up front and honest, and communicate directly.

You seem to value that.

Don't blame her when you are mad at him and his behavior choices.

Is this all normal newbie stuff?
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No. Not to me. Newbie stuff would be tripping on something, discovering it had not been talked about, apologizing, owning it, and making changes.

If he “forgets” over and over, that's not newbie stuff. That's him having a chronic lying problem.

Was I asking too much?
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I don't think expecting people you deal to be honest with you and keep to agreements made is asking too much in general. That just how you want to relate with other people. That is your personal standard/values. You are allowed to make that be whatever you want.

It might be asking too much of HIM if he has weak ethics/skills/character. He doesn't meet your standard/share your values at this time.

I think part of the success to poly is starting out with strong, compatible people to begin with. If you are trying to poly with a weak character person, you could expect shenanigans rather than expect strong follow through. When a person lacks integrity, their "talk" and their "walk" do not match. Believe the walk. Talk without consistent actions to back it up is just hot air.

Should I not have cared that he wanted to stay "just friends" with a former lover?
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I think you are right to care. He's sort of "loose canon."

If he's got a track record for lying and he hasn't told her he's now Closed? If it were me, I would care. How good is his Word on that "just friends" deal? Am I going to get dinged again if I believe him?

I think you guys are best Closed at this time. This experience has helped you identify weak areas.

I suggest you don't try another Opening until well past babies and after he's worked to improve himself and his skills. He could learn to KEEP his Word and stop telling lies, and learn not to make agreements in bad faith.

If he lacks skills and cannot keep basic agreements with you, one person? I don't see how he's got skills to keep agreements with more than one partner.

Does he lie because he's a player and uses people? Or does he lies because he's a people pleaser, hates saying "no," and then ends up painting himself into corners? I cannot tell. You know him best. In the end? The behavior is the same. He's telling lies rather than being honest.

Galagirl
 
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I do agree with Galagirl on nearly all points. If your partner is a player and dishonest even with you, this is a real blow to the relationship. I suppose you need him now with little children. I don't know whose initiative it was to open up in the first place, but if he offeres to be closed, I would take that for a few years coming.

However, to consider next should you decide to trust him and open up once more
- you seem to want to know quite a lot about his dating life. Expecting him to tell you every time he talks to potentials and even to and already-established partner (Jamie)? Of course he would feel controlled.
I would go for "Tell me if you plan to set up a date with someone new".
- I consider reading messages way to intrusive
- I don't know about your finances, but if you have any separate part, it is his freedom to spend it with her. I consider it way to controlling to monitor what they do at every date of his.

This part?
EP and Jaime seemed completely comfortable with being platonic friends, but I had seen flirty messages and photos from her even after she was supposed to be unavailable, and c'mon, they met on Tinder and had sex on the first date. The relationship was based on sex. I was not comfortable with their road trip anymore and asked EP to cancel it.
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I am not clear either. If they were comfortable as platonic friends, why were you not comfortable with the ride?
Was it because you mistrusted them because of the lying and though he was planing to cheat? Did you tell him this directly? If not, then yes, he might be confused.
But I bet even if you did, he didn't tell her you mistrust him because of past lies. If so, she has indeed good reason to think your not being comfortable with a friendly ride is somewhat... overblown.

BTW, there is not much to be rational about in the feelings land. It is OK to be irrational. You could be ok not being rational about feelings.
 
It sounds like you really don't trust your husband, at all. To follow the rules you have set, or to behave like a decent human being when you aren't looking :(

And trust is really the number one thing you need in an open relationship. You can't police his every conversation - you can try, I guess, but it will make you crazy. (Plus, it is really creepy to be reading his messages to others without their knowledge.) So, I think you need to choose - do you want to work on building trust in him, or close the relationship?

Is this all normal newbie stuff? Is it just hard in the beginning? Setting boundaries and learning as you go, kind of thing?
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I'll disagree with most of the previous posts here and say yeah, this sounds pretty much like typical growing pains to me. You and your husband are still figuring out what the other needs/wants/can't handle at all in terms of non-monogamy.

Unless you sat down and had explicit conversations about all this BEFORE it happened, I don't see any of the stuff he did as red flags. He tried to be a player on Tinder, like most guys. He didn't know he needed your input before asking someone to a big event. He didn't realize you'd be upset about him staying friends with a former lover. Sure, it would have been better if he'd erred on the side of checking in with you more, but... None of that stuff would have bugged me, had it been my husband. So it's possible it was an honest case of misunderstanding and different expectations.

Was I asking too much? Too involved in his dating? Should I not have cared that he wanted to stay "just friends" with a former lover?
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It's not about what you should or shouldn't feel, or there being some exact right way to handle an open relationship. It's just about being on the same page with your husband and other partners. If what you need to be open is constant information and consultations, and what he needs is freedom to just do his thing his way, that's a problem.

So now, yah, I feel beat up emotionally and like I'm the bad guy in this. But I only went on one date and then decided I wasn't comfortable because I was pregnant. It now feels like he ruined this before I even got a chance to try it out too.
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Could you maybe close for a year or two, and try again when things are a little more balanced between you in terms of time and energy for dating???
 
GirlFromTexlahoma said:
yeah, this sounds pretty much like typical growing pains to me. You and your husband are still figuring out what the other needs/wants/can't handle at all in terms of non-monogamy.
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No. Basic matematics --

Once, it's an error, maybe an honest mistake.

Twice? Two points is all you need to draw a line; is it trending toward improvement, or not?

Thrice? Now you've got a curve. Is it heading toward "better" or "worse"? Are the "mistakes" slowing down in frequency... or speeding up?

Twenty years ago, even maybe ten, this sort of "thrashing" could maybe be excused, as reliable, relevant, consistent, experienced advice was difficult to find. Nowadays, if it persists for any span of time, it's probably passive-aggressive manipulation.

It's your SO who's been controlling (however ineptly) the dynamic, & apparently gaining much more ego-benefit than you... yet it's HIM that decided he was "not willing and/or unable" to meet my expectations. In other words, he's punishing you by preemptively blocking you from maybe having your own adventure(s), but maybe willing to keep having "accidents" that might involve aiding in the breakup of a supposedly CLOSED relationship.
________________

Oh, about reading each other's PMs, etc: yeah, it strikes me as a little odd, & really does suggest a HUGE degree of insecurity & resultant need for control, going into it.

When my wife & I moved back into nonmonogamy -- after taking a bit of a break before/after the birth of our second child ;) -- there was no Internet to speak of, but we were on a local BBS where we knew most of the ~100 members IRL. There was plenty of flirting & hot chat there, & we'd maybe mention highlights to each other, but the only time we actually read the others messages was if something came across as hinky.

Just a suggestion, but perhaps the two of you should focus on improving your dyad's communication skills, so that neither of you NEEDS this sort of control.
 
Hi Lizzy,

It sounds like EP just went by the "standard playbook" rather than being honest with you and Jaime. I would be inclined to tell him that I'm not willing to participate in an "open" relationship where the honesty is less than 100%. I know it complicates things to have a child in the equation (and another on the way), but you have to also consider what your children are learning by what they observe. They aren't old enough yet to understand what they see, but someday they will be old enough.

FWIW, I do not think you are being irrational.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Ravenscroft said:
No. Basic matematics --

Once, it's an error, maybe an honest mistake.

Twice? Two points is all you need to draw a line; is it trending toward improvement, or not?

Thrice? Now you've got a curve. Is it heading toward "better" or "worse"? Are the "mistakes" slowing down in frequency... or speeding up?
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Well, depends on how you count ;) Do all mistakes get tallied together, or is each new type of mistake the first (and possibly only) in it's category???

I have (possibly misplaced) sympathy for the OP's husband, because I remember the sheer hell of trying to date with a spouse who wanted to know EVERYTHING. Every message, thought, plan, whatever, became an opportunity for misunderstanding and hurt feelings. It took only a few weeks of that before I told my husband I'd rather not date, than date with him reading emails and wanting play by play of everything. When we stopped policing each other, and focused instead on creating boundaries that gave both of us the freedom to handle our relationships as we saw fit, we went from constant stress to genuine happiness for each other.

Of course, I don't know the guy... there's certainly the possibility that he is a passive-aggressive manipulator, in which case we aren't looking at "mistakes" but a calculated attempt to control the relationship. I guess I just remember how many things I personally screwed up in the early days, so I give other fuck-ups the benefit of the doubt :)
 
I just want to thank all of you who responded for your thoughts and wisdom. My husband has also read all of this and it has sparked very productive conversations over the last couple of days. He has ended things with Jamie and we are officially closed until we are in a place in our lives that doesn't require so much energy and focus on our Littles. I'm so grateful that this forum is here for newbies like us and we will continue to use it as a source when we do decide to open again.

EP has recognized several areas he needs to work on (it wasn't as easy for him to get defensive when it's been laid out so clearly here), and I have learned that I went into it making some basic mistakes as well. We both hope that learning from this will make not only our next open period much more enjoyable for both of us, but our relationship stronger!

Peace and happiness,
Lizzy
 
Glad you both were able to have productive conversation. Glad to hear that you decided to finish Closing, focus on the Littles, and give each of you a chance to strengthen weak skills/areas first before trying another Opening later down the line.

I hope the next attempt goes better for both of you.

GL!
Galagirl
 
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Hi Lizzy,

Just wanted to say I am glad you were able to work some things out. And you're always welcome here on this forum, whether to read or post. We'll always want to be of help.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Just read this thread for the first time today. I only want to say that, if you two do decide to embark on a non-monogamous journey again, don't treat your husband like a child (and then get upset when it explodes in your face). Learn to be more easy-going about expectations, and realize that the women he might date also deserve privacy in their communications to him. If you can learn to trust him and let go of wanting to be in control, life would go much more smoothly for you.
 
kdt26417 said:
Hi Lizzy,

It sounds like EP just went by the "standard playbook" rather than being honest with you and Jaime.
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This standard playbook crap guys do makes me ashamed to be a man. I know why he used it, it's doubly hard for a married guy to honestly/openly find a GF, but just because somethings hard doesn't mean you cut corners.
 
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