Help! The role of the 'secondary'.

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

This would describe me! However, I still wouldn't want to be considered "secondary" nor less important. I would always want to feel respected, valued, and just as important to someone as any other partner or close friend in his life. I want to be heard when I express myself, and my concerns to be considered. I'd love to have an occasional getaway without his SO or "primary" dictating whether I do or not, though during the regular course of life I just wouldn't need to spend an awful lot of time with my lover each week, and our lives and finances wouldn't be entwined.

Sometimes it's difficult, but that is something for me and real to deal with. An "intervention" by my meta would definitely piss me off and I would feel like I was being treated like a child.

I really think one of the most important things you can do for to show respect for your meta (whether you are the primary partner or not!) is just give them the space to create their own relationship with the shared partner. Sure, some things affect all of you and need everyone's input. But, like, the vacation example? Not anyone's business who isn't going on said vacation. And (imo) avoiding scheduling conflicts with that type of stuff is the responsibility of the hinge partner. I know Andy double checks dates with me before planning a trip with Steph... But he also double checks with her before planning a vacation with me. That's just part of making sure he doesn't miss anything super important in either of our lives.

Now that I write this... It really seems like all the things that could make a "secondary" (we really need a better word ) feel valued and important are things their partner does, not things their meta does. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part because I prefer to enjoy the low-key friendship I have with my metas and leave stressing about the relationship to the people in the relationship.

 

[Dagferi]

Not every hinge treats their other partner as "secondary ".

I do share a separate home with Murf. I am actually on my third day straight of being home with him. Tomorrow after work I will go home to Butch. Our life style is really no different than a couple who has one partner who travels for work. I travel between homes instead. And yes I have children and a herd of pets. Sometimes the kids and the rottweiler come with.

I go on extended vacations with both husbands. Murf and I go on vacation in Mid May for a week.

If he has an illness I am there to take care of him. I see him on holidays. He isn't excluded from family events on my side. And he doesn't have to socialize with Butch at all.

If we were younger when we met children would have been a possibility.

There are a few of us who can pull off co primary model relationships just fine.

 

[IndieSolo]

Personally, I feel that the terms "primary" and "secondary" have no place in loving, caring relationships. When I am in a relationship with someone who is partnered with another (or others), I am simply his girlfriend, lover, or lover-friend. That's it. Don't call me secondary or treat me as secondarily important. I don't date poly guys who incorrectly think that a hierarchy is necessary in poly. It may work for others, but not for me.

 

[JaneQSmythe]

Everything I've read suggests that few secondary relationships last 2-1/2 years, and very, very few to the five-year mark. My personal observation after four years of reading anything and everything on polyamory, and living it for two years, is that most of the lasting Vs involve two men and a woman, and I think all of those involve virtually complete equality between the two hinges.

Purple - perhaps you meant the two "arms"? In which case, we might be your example. MFM Vee, 5 years and counting, and the boys are as "equal" as they can be. AND STILL, many of the points that you make still apply to Dude as "secondary" (i.e. the non-"legal" partner). We live together, we share finances, our families (Mine and MrS's - without knowing the "whole story") accept him as family, BUT - I can't add him to my health insurance, PDA's are restricted in public/with family, etc.

Vacations? check. Dude and I are going to Burning Man this year (SO excited! - Bucket List for both of us)
Sickness? check. We all take care of each other, always.
Children? Complicated. Been there, tried that - failed. (I've had miscarriages by both of my boys - off the table now.)
Retirement? Working on it.
FaceBook? Irrelevant, I am the only one with an account, and I never post personal stuff.

Which all goes to re-enforce your point. Most of the stable, long-term Vees here DO look to be MFM Vees - me, Phy, Dagferi, Bluebird, Kevin, NorwegianPoly, etc. Curious as to why that is. Is it cultural? Are women better hinges? Are men better at "sharing"? IDK

So, what if one or both of the boys gets involved with someone who wants the same entanglements? IDK. I am/ we are not opposed to it, but how it would look would depend on the person. Lotus had her own "primary" - so all of us were "secondary" in that scenario (and fine with that). Dude dated a few others - one he was not that into...drifted off, one didn't want to be a "side bitch" (her phrase) even though that was never asked of her (she wanted a man of "her own"). We will see what the future holds...

 

[WhatHappened]

Purple - perhaps you meant the two "arms"? In which case, we might be your example. MFM Vee, 5 years and counting, and the boys are as "equal" as they can be. AND STILL, many of the points that you make still apply to Dude as "secondary" (i.e. the non-"legal" partner). We live together, we share finances, our families (Mine and MrS's - without knowing the "whole story") accept him as family, BUT - I can't add him to my health insurance, PDA's are restricted in public/with family, etc.....

Which all goes to re-enforce your point. Most of the stable, long-term Vees here DO look to be MFM Vees - me, Phy, Dagferi, Bluebird, Kevin, NorwegianPoly, etc. Curious as to why that is. Is it cultural? Are women better hinges? Are men better at "sharing"? IDK

Yes, apologies, I meant arms. I was in a rush to get off to places I had to be. Yes, exactly--every example I can think of on this forum that seems to be working is MFM. Given reading here and other boards, given what I saw of XBF's wife--it seems to me that men are better at 'sharing.'

Personally, I feel that the terms "primary" and "secondary" have no place in loving, caring relationships. When I am in a relationship with someone who is partnered with another (or others), I am simply his girlfriend, lover, or lover-friend That's it. Don't call me secondary or treat me as secondarily important. I don't date poly guys who incorrectly think that a hierarchy is necessary in poly. It may work for others, but not for me.

I fully agree with this. The problem is that people don't always live up to what they profess to believe. XBF was HUGE on no hierarchy, swearing they didn't treat people like that, swearing I would have a relationship 'just like any other' with him, and the ONLY difference would be that we couldn't get married or have children--neither of which mattered to me.

However, his wife had issues. She clearly had some expectations for how I would do poly. I have long suspected that she was used to him bringing home dog toys for her to play with, too. Sorry to be crude...but if anyone cares to know how it feels. When my poly wasn't her poly, when I wasn't adjusting to the rules (rules they claimed they didn't have but obviously did), she started playing games. And I found out all his talk was smoke and mirrors, and they most definitely did hierarchy.

I will admit that I have never understood exactly why a single person who *does* want cohabitation/kids/etc would get involved with someone who already has those things with another partner. I apologize if that comes across as judgy, I mean it as honest curiosity. It seems like such a long shot, to make the co-primary thing work, especially if both people want children with the shared partner. And I agree that the primary/secondary structure is unfair and unsustainable if both partners do want a primary or entangled role.

I can offer you...sort of...answers to this. I didn't want cohabitation or more kids. I still don't. I could be married to a millionaire right now, in a beautiful home, and I keep saying no, because I'm happy in my own home, with my kids, with neighbors I like. So it didn't matter to me that he was married...as long as I knew his wife knew and was fine with this arrangement.

However, the first problem is that feelings change with romance. I went into it thinking this was a short term thing, go out a few times, while I kept dating, looking for a real relationship (yeah, I'm going to call it that--someone who could really commit to being there for me long term.) However, I think we both ended up with feelings we didn't expect, AND...I eventually noticed that as much as he claimed to want me to find someone he also found fault with every man I met, discouraged me from every other man, did all in his power to keep me tied to him, bringing us to the second problem...

His claims to non-hierarchy had never really been tested. In 15 years, he'd never managed to have a relationship longer than 18 months, and even that was online. But while he tried to hang onto me long term, he also wasn't willing to be there for me. Fridge needs repair...he takes off work to make a phone call to spare poor wife (who has no kids, no job, not even a fern to water) the hardship; major storm leaves me in crisis, with damage, without power, alone with kids for a week, trying to repair damage and get to work every day...oh, hey, sorry, baby, you'll be fine, you can do this.

He talked freely of how they were retiring to a state across the country someday...while actively discouraging anyone who would actually promise me a future. (Really? Is that how 'any other girlfriend' in 'any other relationship' expects to be treated....stay with me for ten years baby, no other man is good enough for you, and then when I leave, uh, yeah, good luck finding someone then, when you're ten years older and almost in retirement.)

His wife started playing games that made it clear I was a big huge Number Two...and he told me I was imagining things...while playing along with her game.

Sorry, no, at two plus years in, no other girlfriend would have been treated the way he was beginning to treat me. At two plus years in, yes, any other man in any other relationship would have been there for me in a crisis.

What I'm saying is...people agree to things and find that what they were promised is not necessarily what happens. I'll even give him the credit of saying he may have believed he could do it. But he couldn't and wasn't willing to change when I pointed out that this was not what he promised me.

 

[PinkPig]

Which all goes to re-enforce your point. Most of the stable, long-term Vees here DO look to be MFM Vees - me, Phy, Dagferi, Bluebird, Kevin, NorwegianPoly, etc. Curious as to why that is. Is it cultural? Are women better hinges? Are men better at "sharing"? IDK

I've wondered about this myself.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

What I'm saying is...people agree to things and find that what they were promised is not necessarily what happens. I'll even give him the credit of saying he may have believed he could do it. But he couldn't and wasn't willing to change when I pointed out that this was not what he promised me.

Thank you for explaining all that... It does help me understand a little better how things can go sideways in poly. I'll admit that while some of what you wrote just made me think, what an ass, other parts of it scare me. My husband and I try to be very upfront about what we can offer to other partners - friendship, sex, love, emotional support, time together - and what we can't - cohabitation, kids, financial support, growing old together. My big stress is that, as you said, "feelings change with romance". And with time. I worry that other partners could end up feeling hurt that falling in love, or even being in love for years, doesn't change the type of relationship that is on offer.

I'll probably blog about this endlessly later but just wanted to say you've given me a lot to think about!

 

[playfulgirl]

Feeling the need to point out...Stable fmf v here. 3.5 years...complete with individual couple and whole family events vacations etc.

My theory on why we see more successful mfm vees is that the male wings are much less likely to face a spoken or unspoken desire/pressure to have to sleep/be sexual with their meta. Not that this is always the case but we do have a hetero centric culture .

For example, I am often approached in the poly community with the assumption I'm up for sex with both members of a couple. Whereas it's a highly rare occurrence for my single male friends

 

[WhatHappened]

Thank you for explaining all that... It does help me understand a little better how things can go sideways in poly. I'll admit that while some of what you wrote just made me think, what an ass, other parts of it scare me. My husband and I try to be very upfront about what we can offer to other partners - friendship, sex, love, emotional support, time together - and what we can't - cohabitation, kids, financial support, growing old together. My big stress is that, as you said, "feelings change with romance". And with time. I worry that other partners could end up feeling hurt that falling in love, or even being in love for years, doesn't change the type of relationship that is on offer.

I'll probably blog about this endlessly later but just wanted to say you've given me a lot to think about!

Glad it's food for thought even if you think/thought I'm an ass.

In all seriousness, isn't this what forums should be about--working together, seeing all sides and hopefully helping each other do better?

I will offer this: when I used to tell XBF--back when he was BF, not X--about the things going on with poly relationships here on the forum and he always dismissed it all as people who do poly badly--that he and his wife were somehow superior to everyone here. I've often thought of the irony that I, the non-poly, was his longest relationship ever, in 20 years so far of him doing poly. I still think I do poly better than he, the expert, does.

And I am curious, then (again, take it as discussion, helping each other understand, not being an ass or argumentive), if 'growing old together' is off the table, cannot be offered, then what is the point of the relationship, and is it entered with the intention or belief that it will end within a few years?

 

[WhatHappened]

Feeling the need to point out...Stable fmf v here. 3.5 years...complete with individual couple and whole family events vacations etc.

My theory on why we see more successful mfm vees is that the male wings are much less likely to face a spoken or unspoken desire/pressure to have to sleep/be sexual with their meta. Not that this is always the case but we do have a hetero centric culture .

For example, I am often approached in the poly community with the assumption I'm up for sex with both members of a couple. Whereas it's a highly rare occurrence for my single male friends

It's of interest to me, but I'm sure also to the OP: what do you think makes it work? Which part of the FMF are you? Are you part of the marriage, or the OSO? Do all three of you live together?

That's an interesting point you bring up, about men not being expected to sleep with the male metamour, and no doubt true.

*Side note--I believe this was one issue with my situation. I have long since come to believe that she expected him to bring fun toys home for them to share. Yeah, I'm phrasing it like that. Because I think it's accurate for her. And I think part of her problem was in realizing I was never, ever going to 'play' with her.

I think men also tend to have less drive to have a child--and they can father children much longer than women can bear children. That's another difference. Frankly, I also see a lot more jealousy and competition among women, and I can guess at some reasons for that.

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

Glad it's food for thought even if you think/thought I'm an ass.

Not you - the ex!

And I am curious, then (again, take it as discussion, helping each other understand, not being an ass or argumentive), if 'growing old together' is off the table, cannot be offered, then what is the point of the relationship, and is it entered with the intention or belief that it will end within a few years?

Well, um, sex I don't think of myself as poly, it's never been something I purposefully sought out. I was just looking for FWBs (the actual friend kind, not the booty call kind). My ideal would be that when the "benefits" end, we stay friends.

As for growing old together... I just don't feel like I can promise that to more than one person. I feel like I'd be lying if I offered "forever". If my husband's job moves, I move. We have no idea yet where we'll want to live when we retire. The idea of those decisions involving another partner, their kids, their career? Logistical nightmare.

It's not that I have a nefarious plan to ditch people after a pre-determined time frame If my little poly world stayed the same for 20 years, I'd be thrilled. It's just that after a lot of soul searching, I don't see myself as able to make that no-matter-what lifelong commitment to two (or more) people. I can imagine too many scenarios where I'd be pulled in different directions and have to choose. And in doing so, break a promise to someone I loved.

So instead I only promise what I can deliver - I'm always here to be your friend. I will love you and care about you for as long as you'll let me. But someday the shape that love takes may change, we might be platonic instead of sexual, long distance instead of close by.

I guess that's why the "feelings change" stuff scares me so much. I go into relationships being honest and upfront - but that's not a guarantee a partner will still be ok with it down the line.

 

[PinkPig]

So instead I only promise what I can deliver - I'm always here to be your friend. I will love you and care about you for as long as you'll let me. But someday the shape that love takes may change, we might be platonic instead of sexual, long distance instead of close by.

I guess that's why the "feelings change" stuff scares me so much. I go into relationships being honest and upfront - but that's not a guarantee a partner will still be ok with it down the line.

But, honestly, isn't that all we ever really can offer anyone? I mean, even in a committed marriage, or long-term entwined partnership, things can change. One person can get an amazing job offer across the world, the other could need to move back home to help with ailing family/friends, feelings can change...any number of things can happen. Call me cynical, but I no longer believe that we can offer anyone a "forever" romantic relationship. We just don't know what tomorrow will bring. Today's primary may be tomorrow's secondary.

I guess the only real difference I see is in the case of a spouse or deeply entwined/committed relationship, we assume that in the event of major life changes, we will at least seriously consider adjusting our lives to accommodate those changes (though we can't know how we'll feel or what we'll want when/if those things happen.) Versus, with a secondary, we maybe commit to maintaining some type of relationship but not necessarily changing our lives to accommodate the partner's life changes (if that makes sense.)

 

[GirlFromTexlahoma]

I guess the only real difference I see is in the case of a spouse or deeply entwined/committed relationship, we assume that in the event of major life changes, we will at least seriously consider adjusting our lives to accommodate those changes (though we can't know how we'll feel or what we'll want when/if those things happen.) Versus, with a secondary, we maybe commit to maintaining some type of relationship but not necessarily changing our lives to accommodate the partner's life changes (if that makes sense.)

It does. I honestly feel that part of my commitment to my husband is that I *will* adjust my life to accommodate changes in his. I don't see changing my mind if/when it actually happens as an option. And he feels the same way. Before we met he worked all over the world, different country every year or two. Now he turns down international offers (or travels a ton) because I would hate that lifestyle. And I've helped out aging relatives, but it's either we both go, or there's a time limit on how long I can help. Basically, where I go, he goes. What he deals with, I deal with.

I assume (maybe I'm wrong?) that cohabiting vees/triads/quads work the same way as dyads. You prioritize keeping everyone together, even if that means giving up other things in life. But it gets complicated when you have separate, non entangled relationships from your life partner.

Can I expect Andy to turn down a job so I can stay near Dag? Can he expect me to give up a retirement dream because it doesn't jibe with Stephanie's plans? Some couples would probably say yes, all of our other relationships take priority over career goals and family duties. For me, though... that is more limiting and complicated than I can handle, at least right now. I feel pretty commitment-saturated at one life partner. One "everything else will have to work around this relationship" commitment. I keep other relationships at the "we will have to work this relationship around the rest of our lives" level.

 

[Spork]

OP, I am sorry that you're dealing with this, you sound like a compassionate person who is frustrated with the situation before you and genuinely wanting to help. Unfortunately as others have said...your ability to facilitate solutions here is limited by your position in it all. I hope it all works out though, with as little hurt as possible to everyone involved.

As far as the whole primary/secondary thing...

I ~guess~ I'm secondary-ish to Fire and Hefe. It doesn't feel that way, although functionally it is. They've been together like 13 years or something. Married. Share finances. Don't have kids, but for instance if they moved across the country (and they've considered it) then my boyfriend and I would not likely continue to relationship with them in a meaningful way. They've invited us on trips, but serious "lovey lovey PDA" pics on Facebook are kind of limited because of their families.

However, I'm one of those who has done the married thing, had my kids (now teenagers) and not remotely interested in nesting or escalating, prefer my independence. I am not looking for anyone to be a "grow old together" life partner, merely to be my life companions for as long as it suits us all. It could go on for life, or fall apart tomorrow. And that doesn't stress me in the slightest. I don't feel like a second class citizen and part of that is the fact that I view my relationship with Fire as at least as significant as my relationship with Hefe. I don't feel like she's my meta and we might have any power struggle over him. We're in a quad, and we all have our relationship-things to manage. Though the men don't share sexual intimacy, they have a friendship that is pretty significant. It is a relationship-of-four where we each have our own connections to maintain within it. Kind of relationship-anarchy-ish in that the friendship bonds for even those who don't have sex or have it very seldom (Fire and I) are just as legit and solid and valid as those who do have sex.

I recognize that the marriage of Hefe and Fire would take precedent in certain respects to the relationships that they've got with Analyst and I. And everyone is basically alright with that.

 

[habibtig]

So much great insight to chew on, thank you!

Your responses have given me a lot of pause as to what this is doing to Allison, and I think the reality is that she needs more. She needs a man that can be her forever, that will take care of her. She recently stated that if they continue she will be 'pretending that they (kids and I) don't exist.' This is after de-friending both of us after someone posted a photo (but not before commenting sarcastically about how 'adorable' we were), and then private messaged him to say how she had just 'vomited in her mouth'.

Shame on him I suppose for revealing all the negative stuff without much of the good as I have gone from 100% supportive of them/her, to wanting to be the utter bitch who pulls rank. Not at all who I am, but frankly, I'm pissed at the way she has been treating him. Wants to pretend we don't exist? What do I do with that? (WhatHappened, here is where I need you!) I know...he should not be telling me any of this.

So what's next. This town is tiny, and she will be arriving home on Thursday after being away for 2 months. Do I ignore her? Do I greet her as I would have a year ago with warmth, like nothing has happened? Do I literally bitch slap them both and tell them to go be dramatic somewhere else? Why am I the one who now has to feel fucking awkward?

Sigh..to answer some questions, we don't have any rules. I know, spells danger, but we just don't. There is no schedule, we are both super laid back and happy to stay home with the kids so if someone wants to spend the night out it's totally fine. We cherish family and Allison is lucky to have both her brothers here. David spends a lot of time with them. We are not willing to share our home with anyone else at this point, nor are we in a position to contribute financially to anyone else. In sickness though? Absolutely. Paul had a horrible motorcycle accident and stayed with us for 6 weeks back in November. A non-issue. Paul took the kids for an overnight while David and I went away for our 10 year wedding anniversary this month. I think we are functioning pretty well for newbies?

My other fear is that this blows up with Allison and David has a hard time finding someone else. How do you reconcile with the guilt that you have someone else, but your partner doesn't? A quad sounds amaaaazing right about now....

 

[Spork]

David's ability to find someone else is his problem to manage.

It honestly sounds to me as though Allison has a disrespectful attitude to your family, which frankly is indirectly disrespectful to David. Respectful to David would be understanding that the family that includes you and children is an important part of his life that brings him joy. He is a person, with a life, that has other priorities than ~~girlfriend~~ (Allison in this case.) HE is more than a cardboard cutout that she could own if she played her cards right (some kind of object or prize.) Honestly the fact that he is telling you all of these things she says, indicates to me that one of two things is happening:

1. He kind of enjoys you feeling jealous/competitive with her and wishes to feed that and play with that feeling. If that were the case, then it would be an unkindness to you.

2. He is feeling disrespected but hasn't sorted it out fully enough to be ready to pull the plug, and is sounding off of you until he can home in on the answer, like mental/emotional sonar... "processing" Working through emotions to try and find the logic.

She is unfortunately too monofolk to really get the beauty of polyamory. That makes me sad for her. I wouldn't dream of trying to cowgirl Hefe away from Fire, that would be madness. Silly. I enjoy their energy together as much as I enjoy either of them separately. (Holy moly, watching them dance is deliciously voyeuristic! I can't dance, LOVE to watch them though.) Those kinds of moments are so wonderful to me...I feel a little sorry for those who can't dig that kind of energy with the ones they love, and feel all possessive and stuff.

 

[PinkPig]

In your situation? I'd be civil and polite but avoid social situations with her present, whenever possible. And, I'd tell David not to tell me anything except the bare minimum: when they're meeting, how long he'll be, and sex health stuff, etc. Nothing else about what she thinks or how she feels or even how she acts. Just maintain your boundaries. Hopefully, he'll eventually get sick of her drama.

 

[habibtig]

I'll figure out how to 'quote' others eventually...

Spork, so happy for you and the harmony you have with your loved ones. The dancing story put a huge smile on my face.

David doesn't have an evil bone in his body. Him telling me all this stuff is solely to use me as a sounding board. His best friend and confidant... I believed I could be objective, but as time has moved on it is clear that I am now being negatively affected as well. I so wish that she could ease into this with a different mindset. Our community is so small, our friends are all intertwined, the kids enjoy her company (she is the auntie of my daughter's best friend), etc. Seeing that they were good friends before it became sexual, I would have thought that she could embrace the bigger picture. But fine, it's not for her! I can't fault her for that...but now the question remains...WHY do they keep doing this to themselves??

PinkPig, thanks for the advice. It is definitely sound. To add a twist, I am considering going home with the kids in the summer for 6 weeks. I was looking forward to giving them that time and space to enjoy themselves before. Now I'm feeling like I've got my back up, like doing that is giving HER a gift which upsets me considering I no longer exist in her eyes. Seeing as she lives with her brother, she will essentially move into my house with David for 6 weeks. Before? Whatever, have fun! Now? Rage.

 

[Spork]

I thought about this on my way to the post office (where I saw a family of geese including 4 babies goosing about in the middle of the road, SO CUTE!) and I want to add some thoughts...

As we all know, honesty and communication are what makes poly work best, yeah? So as you are getting a lot of advice to ask your husband not to share these things with you...I would actually have trouble with that, unless he also committed to NOT have conversations with her, about you, behind your back. You've got an "honest communication" breakdown going on here, and despite his best intentions and his sweetness, David is at the center of it. I doubt if she is aware that he's sharing her comments with you. She is disrespecting you, him, your family. They talk about you when you're not present, and then you and David talk about her when she is not present. It's almost to the point of gossip even if you originally just wanted to help, and he is just trying to accomodate her feelings. Furthermore, she isn't being honest with herself, because if she can't accept him fully as he is, and hopes to shift him away from what he's got (you, family) then it sounds like she is being a bit delusional. And finally, he doesn't really respect her very much if he's holding on because she's fun to have sex with (or...whatever?) even despite thought patterns and behaviors that bother him, and he's not setting her straight that "Look, lady, I love my family. You either get cozy with that fact, or we're going to have to end this thing."

She needs to be made aware of the harm that she is causing with this stuff, and the fact that he isn't interested in transitioning from his marriage to a mono relationship with her. Now or ever. And the fact that he doesn't keep secrets from you, and you know what she's been saying.

At least that is what I think. *shrug*

 

[kdt26417]

Re (from WhatHappened):

"If 'growing old together' is off the table, cannot be offered, then what is the point of the relationship, and is it entered with the intention or belief that it will end within a few years?"

I think there are some people who don't mind a less-than-for-life relationship, provided everyone is honest about that being what it is from the very beginning. However, it's not right for everyone.

I am in a for-life V, and I think that's important to me. I guess I could see having a temporary relationship on the side, although that wouldn't actually happen due to our agreement that any added relationship must also be for life.