Partner with low self-esteem worshipping some jerk

[polygone]

This is my first message on the forum. It may not seem as poly per se, but I am pretty sure that monogamous people would give me advice which would not really apply.

My partner and I are technically each other secondaries, but because our primary relationships are so bad, I consider her as my primary in some sense. She is very unhappy at home, which I think is one of the reason she's always so keen to meet up with me several times a week, at the cost of getting trouble w her hb.

I have no issue with her dating other people.

I do have an issue though with one particular guy whom she worships, and who is a total jerk with her. Even though she is hot and brillant, he clearly told her that there are another 10 girls hotter or smarter than her so he'll just call her whenever he feels like. He's never taken her on a proper date in over a year, the only time they ever meet is when she goes to events which she hopes he will attend (for instance poly events) and hoping he'll take her home afterwards.

I consider my partner as a dear friend, and from that angle I told her she absolutely needs to get over him. However I am biased given that of course I envy this guy who makes absolutely zero effort and getting so much of her attention while I do so many of the things that makes her happy and feel I'll never reach anywhere near this level of obsession.

She admitted herself and I second the feeling that the reason for her obsession is that he treats her like shit, and I pictured that if I were acting a bit like him I would get her to obsess about me. This sounds perverse, but if I can get her to be obsessed about someone who truly cares about her, it might be better than by someone who doesn't.

I think she does care about me. I definitely care about her. We have the most amazing sex, and we have a very strong intellectual and artistic connection. And when we had some arguments (which are quite rare), I really felt she was very scared that we would break up. But then that may be because she doesn't want to stay home. Also, she says herself she has a very low self-esteem, which seems to be the reason she has so few friends (most of which are in fact fuck buddies). She told me once that I am the only person who likes her for her personality (to be honest I like her more for her artistic talent and intellect).

My key questions are:
- should I interfere in her fantasies about this jerk?
- should I try to treat her less well so as to get more of her attention?
- should I just wait for her to get tired of him?
- should I keep helping her to build her self-esteem so she could see more brightly at some point?

 

[BlueShoes]

I'm going to go with no to all of the above. In my opinion, the answer to all of your questions is no.

Your secondary partner is an adult. She is responsible for her own well-being and her own choices. It is not appropriate for you to manipulate her, mistreat her, or otherwise mess with her in the hopes of changing her mind. You can point out facts (which I assume you have somewhat done), and you can make her offers of what you can do for her. She has to decide her own course of action.

The courses of action she's pursued so far are terrible choices. They're just awful. She is mouldering in a bad marriage, and semi-stalking a jerk who dislikes her because she craves his attention. I sympathize with the challenges in both of those situations, but I don't sympathize with the choices she's made about how to handle her life, or her feelings.

I don't really sympathize with what you say about her choices or your options either. You describe yourself as having a terrible primary relationship - and I ask WHY? Why is it terrible, and what are you doing to fix it or change it? If it is terrible, and cannot be fixed or changed, why haven't you taken steps to end it? Is meeting up with your hot and brilliant friend for wonderful sex several times a week improving that part of your life, or just letting you ignore it?

You have a terrible primary relationship. You are not in a position to offer a whole heart to someone fighting considerable inner and outer struggles of her own. Figure out what to do about your primary. Then regroup and consider what to do about your secondary, keeping in mind that you do not control her.

 

[BlueShoes]

Is the advice that the monogamous would give you that you should focus on your own primary relationship?

That is actually sound advice.

 

[polygone]

Thanks for the advice BlueShoes, you are raising very valid points.

I don't really sympathize with what you say about her choices or your options either. You describe yourself as having a terrible primary relationship - and I ask WHY? Why is it terrible, and what are you doing to fix it or change it? If it is terrible, and cannot be fixed or changed, why haven't you taken steps to end it? Is meeting up with your hot and brilliant friend for wonderful sex several times a week improving that part of your life, or just letting you ignore it?

Like her, I got married too young, was really in love and wanted to show commitment, but I realized I got into a relationship with a control freak. As I matured, I gradually managed to restore the balance so that my wife would not control 90% of things, but rather 70%, but it has been a fight all along that also made my wife more unhappy than before. She has simply been too spoiled by her parents, who to this day are scared to death of ever disappointing her, and I am paying the price of this. As a parenthesis, I think my secondary is precisely the opposite: even though she has got a strong personality, she is super easy going, never fussy, always happy about everything (including whatever makes me feel happy), and the world champion of compersion.

As for why I am not leaving my wife, well, as in most cases: kids. We still have frequent good times together as a family, and it would feel a shame to deliberately destroy this by breaking up. Besides the fact that I've spent more days in my life than without her, making her a very good friend.

You are very right about me being in denial. I am an otherwise reasonably rational person, been handling my career quite well, but at the moment I am in a stage where I am allowing myself to play with fire. This is not something I am going to stop right away, but clearly it would be very poor ethics if it continued indefinitely. And just to be clear, we are not having sex 'several times a week'. We go out most of the time, we do all kind of great activities, and the logistics make it tough to have sex more than twice a month. Which obviously is another reason to be envious of the jerk who never has to lift a finger to get her in her bed (which he only ever does once every 2 months).

You have a terrible primary relationship. You are not in a position to offer a whole heart to someone fighting considerable inner and outer struggles of her own. Figure out what to do about your primary. Then regroup and consider what to do about your secondary, keeping in mind that you do not control her.

This is very true. If I were free, I'd offer her to live together, which she's already indicated she would totally be in for. The reason she is not breaking up is that she still has a small kid, and she is in a terrible financial situation. At the moment I can only fantasize about that happening, and I feel that as a primary I might be able to help her make better choices than she's done so far.

Your secondary partner is an adult. She is responsible for her own well-being and her own choices. It is not appropriate for you to manipulate her, mistreat her, or otherwise mess with her in the hopes of changing her mind. You can point out facts (which I assume you have somewhat done), and you can make her offers of what you can do for her. She has to decide her own course of action.

Not sure I agree with that. I'm pretty certain that if I were just a friend of hers, I would try to open her eyes, and even do some kind of 'intervention' to stop her from suffering. Even adults need kicks in the butt, and she's got no one to look out for her. I know that by being her partner as well it makes my intentions look dubious.

Is the advice that the monogamous would give you that you should focus on your own primary relationship?

Well of course that would be the advice if I copy-pasted my question as is. I was thinking along the lines of presenting her as my main partner. But if I did that, the monogamous crowd would tell me that I am insane to let her see other guys, and that I'll never get any respect from her if I keep letting her do that.

 

[polygone]

Is meeting up with your hot and brilliant friend for wonderful sex several times a week improving that part of your life, or just letting you ignore it?

As I admitted it is partially the latter. But also the former in the sense that in a purely monogamous setting I am far too dependent on my primary, which leads me to either accept things I shouldn't because I am desperate for some kind of peace and tenderness, or I just blow up because I can't stand the situation. With a secondary relationship I reduce that dependence, and it makes me act in a much more balanced way. For instance when my primary gives me the silent treatment it would drive me crazy, but nowadays I can afford to have her get tired of it. Even sex with her has become better.

 

[Tinwen]

However I am biased given that of course I envy this guy who makes absolutely zero effort and getting so much of her attention while I do so many of the things that makes her happy and feel I'll never reach anywhere near this level of obsession.

(Leaving out any opinions on whether you should divorce or not, as that is not your question), I think this is where your focus in this situation lie.
I think you may be trying to control your jealousy by trying to control her, which never works. You could instead think of what you need to overcome this envy and give yourself compassion and self-care.
Also, as long as you have this bias, you cannot be helping her in any way.

On the idea of helping her. There are certainly things that are doable to help a partner "get over someone", gain self-esteem or achieve any other goal they set for themselves. But I have no idea from your writing if she even wants to get over him. Maybe she has fun sleeping with that guy once every two months? Maybe her obsession is something she is not ready to drop?
If she doesn't want a change, then all you can do is voice your concerns and your needs in this particular situation. You can also genuinely try to understand her better - empathy is healing in itself. But that's about it...

 

[BlueShoes]

I think the thing that you could do about your secondary partner is just tell her that you can't support her obsession. Stop going to poly meetups that she attends in the hopes of meeting the guy you don't like there. Don't facilitate. When she comes to you with complaints about jerk, point out that jerk has always been jerk. You understand that who she pursues is up to her, but you can't provide emotional support for this thing.

You're asking for advice about your secondary relationship, but I want to call out that you describe yourself as playing with fire in your primary relationship, and you have children. This is a really bad idea.

One thing that I see happen with polyamory sometimes is that people who are in bad primary relationships use secondary relationships to make their lives bearable. I don't grudge anyone their happiness, but this particular strategy is a problem in that the people who do it remain involved in their bad relationships. Your secondary is using your emotional support as a prop for continuing to chase a jerk, and you're using her emotional support as a prop that lets you fail to address issues in your marriage.

I sympathize with the difficulty of leaving a bad relationship when there are children involved. I am very recently divorced myself, and I have two kids in elementary school. The divorce was a rough transition for them. The marriage, however, was becoming a rolling horror show.

Children need healthy, functional parents who set good examples concerning acceptable behavior in relationships. Children don't necessarily need their parents to be married.

 

[Tinwen]

I think the thing that you could do about your secondary partner is just tell her that you can't support her obsession.

This sounds like a good idea.

 

[Spork]

I have done this thing of "becoming obsessed with a jerk"...although in fact I'd argue that the man was not a jerk necessarily because he simply had his own motives, his own desires, his own boundaries.

Seriously, maybe the "jerk" just isn't really that into her? And she is clinging to...something. What? Maybe she needs something she doesn't really understand yet. It's not that she is enjoying being "treated badly" as in, with a disregard and a lack of care. She is probably obsessed with his confidence.

She might be wired submissive. And she might need a Dom.

And you sound, honestly, too petulant, too almost passive-aggressive, and too weak in your Self, asking if you should try to be this or do that, to fill this role. She wants a man who can stand where he stands, and you're running in circles around her like a puppy. It is hard to explain. Many guys have this difficulty...and probably some women, too, but you hear about it from guys a lot. "Nice guy" is willing to do anything to gain the affection he craves from the girl, but she is giving it to "the jerk" who has a complete disregard for her.

Why?

Because the Jerk has POWER. And power is attractive. Confidence is attractive. A woman craving those things won't obsess over a man she can't respect. And unfortunately, it's not something you can play at or pretend. You can spend years building yourself with massive amounts of self work, and you might get there...but if you aren't that guy, just trying to "act jerky" to her isn't going to get you anywhere at all. Signs point to you not appearing strong enough for her to respect in this way would be the fact that you put up with your bad relationship with a "control freak" wife (who gave her control? You did) for the sake of the kids.

Her life is hard. She's got a bad primary relationship, and money troubles. She has fear. In parts of her spirit probably too deep for her to even see right now, she wants someone really strong to save her and be in charge, because she is tired and afraid in her struggle. The "Jerk" won't do that for her. But he throws off a scent of power that implies that he COULD, if only he could be persuaded to WANT TO. And frankly, because he has no emotional care for her, he probably is really rough with her when they do have sex, which might be a thing she enjoys. But you would need to actually DISCUSS that with her to find out, before you tried anything like that.

But really, the whole mess with both of you having bad primary relationships...do the spouses/primaries KNOW about your relationship? Is everyone being honest?...feels like big potential for drama to me.

 

[InfinitePossibility]

As for why I am not leaving my wife, well, as in most cases: kids. We still have frequent good times together as a family, and it would feel a shame to deliberately destroy this by breaking up. Besides the fact that I've spent more days in my life than without her, making her a very good friend.

I always think it's a shame when people who no longer get along stay in an unhappy relationship for their kids. I'm not sure why it is thought to be better for the kids?? I always suspect that it is quite damaging for children to grow up in a household where their parents aren't close. It means that they see first hand and on a daily basis from two of the people who will influence them the most in the world that when things go wrong the best thing to do is remain stuck and unhappy, that change is something to be feared, that having an unhappy marriage is better than having no marriage at all, that it's impossible for families to continue to function if anything changes.

These are not good things for children to learn IMO. Change is something that happens anyway and good if parents can model dealing with change in a healthy fashion. Plenty of people are happy without being married, plenty are happy without romantic relationships at all - and it is good to model being happy with different lifestyles. Plenty of people divorce and focus on co-parenting their children very well. I have a work colleague who holidayed with her ex-husband while their children were small so that the children didn't miss out on family holidays.

My parents adored each other and I grew up in a house filled with love and care. I think it makes a great deal of difference for children to be able to grow up like that. If my parents hadn't gotten along, I'm sure I'd have been better off growing up in two houses filled with love and care rather than in one filled with anger and resentment and a parent who disappeared at every opportunity to hang out with somebody else.

Not sure I agree with that. I'm pretty certain that if I were just a friend of hers, I would try to open her eyes, and even do some kind of 'intervention' to stop her from suffering. Even adults need kicks in the butt, and she's got no one to look out for her. I know that by being her partner as well it makes my intentions look dubious.

I also think that you sound controlling. Why does she need a kick in the butt? In general, kicks in the butt do nothing to change behaviour in the long term - and lots to make people feel guilty at their choices. Just because you think that she should be more obsessed with you than with this bloke doesn't mean she should be. Nor does you having sex with her give you some sort of say over her life.

I've had plenty of people over the years try to give me a kick in the butt about my choices. I tend to kick back and then ignore them. If there is something I decide I want to change I go and find a way to do that.

But nobody but me gets to decide what things I need to change about my life. This stance has led me to a situation where I own my own home, have a job that I love, that pays well and lets me work only 25 hours a week so that I have tons of time and energy for my friends, hobbies and the voluntary work I do. The many people over the years who wanted to give me a kick in the butt over choices they didn't like are now often jealous of my lifestyle.

IP

 

[kdt26417]

Hi polygone,

Re (from OP):

"Should I interfere in her fantasies about this jerk?"

Nope.

Re:

"Should I try to treat her less well so as to get more of her attention?"

No, absolutely not.

Re:

"Should I just wait for her to get tired of him?"

She may or may not get tired of him. Right now I think you need to decide if you can tolerate the situation as it is indefinitely.

Re:

"Should I keep helping her to build her self-esteem so she could see more brightly at some point?"

Helping her build her self-esteem sounds like a good idea.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[polygone]

I think the thing that you could do about your secondary partner is just tell her that you can't support her obsession. Stop going to poly meetups that she attends in the hopes of meeting the guy you don't like there. Don't facilitate. When she comes to you with complaints about jerk, point out that jerk has always been jerk. You understand that who she pursues is up to her, but you can't provide emotional support for this thing.

This is something that took a while to figure out but now I am pretty clearly avoiding to support her obsession.

Your secondary is using your emotional support as a prop for continuing to chase a jerk, and you're using her emotional support as a prop that lets you fail to address issues in your marriage.

She did use me occasionally as emotional support but it's not like we spend all our time discussing about him. As for the second remark it is not right. She provides emotional support for sure, but also a lot of very sensible advice. One of them is about being more firm with my wife, focussing more on what makes me happy before trying to make her or my wife happy. These are things which can help me sort out the situation in the long run.

I sympathize with the difficulty of leaving a bad relationship when there are children involved. I am very recently divorced myself, and I have two kids in elementary school. The divorce was a rough transition for them. The marriage, however, was becoming a rolling horror show.

It is very helpful to hear people who went through that and divorce is definitely not something I am ruling out.

 

[polygone]

Because the Jerk has POWER. And power is attractive. Confidence is attractive. A woman craving those things won't obsess over a man she can't respect. And unfortunately, it's not something you can play at or pretend. You can spend years building yourself with massive amounts of self work, and you might get there...but if you aren't that guy, just trying to "act jerky" to her isn't going to get you anywhere at all. Signs point to you not appearing strong enough for her to respect in this way would be the fact that you put up with your bad relationship with a "control freak" wife (who gave her control? You did) for the sake of the kids.

You might be right in general but what you are saying simply does not apply to me. I may be sensitive, and got embroiled in a marital relationship where I feel I am lacking control, but I am very far from the 'nice guy' as portrayed in some B-series movies. Overall in most of my relationships, I met girls who were equally 'nice' and we had balanced relationships. I did come across some girls who were taking advantage of me being too nice, and in most cases I managed to turn around things, precisely by being less nice, or playing games (which I despised, but that served me well). Over the last couple of years, I have been less and less nice with my wife, and that has clearly restored some balance, but the end result is that this happened at the expense of my wife's happiness. Not a good enough reason for me to stop restoring the balance, but let's say I am not super pleased by the collateral damage.

 

[polygone]

But I have no idea from your writing if she even wants to get over him. Maybe she has fun sleeping with that guy once every two months? Maybe her obsession is something she is not ready to drop?
If she doesn't want a change, then all you can do is voice your concerns and your needs in this particular situation. You can also genuinely try to understand her better - empathy is healing in itself. But that's about it...

Well she says herself that he's not great in bed, but obviously she still feels the draw to sleep with him. As for whether she wants to drop, I once took an afternoon off because she was begging me to help her get rid of that obsession. This was a while ago, and I felt she'd made some progress, but I feel she's acting like how addicts sometimes do, i.e. they will ask for help a first time, then when told they need to stop they pretend to, but they just keep doing it in secret.

I don't think empathy is recommended when someone is on a path of self-destruction. No one would recommend to empathize with someone taking drugs, you'd just make them stop taking them.

 

[FallenAngelina]

It is very helpful to hear people who went through that and divorce is definitely not something I am ruling out.

I'm going through an amicable divorce, not because there isn't heartbreak and hurt but because we are choosing to focus mainly on what is good. Divorce need not happen just because things have gotten to a breaking point. It doesn't have to go that far. Your children be influenced much more by your vibe than by any "good family times" that you think you're providing them. If you and your wife proceed with clarity and good will, that's what your children will feel. No matter what it looks like, no matter if spouses are together or not, children are always in tune with what their parents are emitting. Most divorce is hard on children because their parents are in strife, not because the parents separate. Get right with the struggle and your children will feel the peace of your ease. The best gift that you can give your children is your own authentic happiness.

Judging from your focus on your "secondary's" problems, you, yourself have a muddled idea of what you want for your own life. I'd urge you to focus on what you want and on how you feel -with her and at home with your family. She simply reflects to you the cloudiness of your own vision for yourself. The more clarity you have about yourself and about what is right for you, the easier your relationships will be. You never need to "help fix" anyone else, and when you feel that you do, that's a sure sign that you've got some internal work to do on yourself.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am confused on this. Could you be willing to clarify?

You are very right about me being in denial. I am an otherwise reasonably rational person, been handling my career quite well, but at the moment I am in a stage where I am allowing myself to play with fire. This is not something I am going to stop right away, but clearly it would be very poor ethics if it continued indefinitely.

What does this mean?

Are you saying the person you call your "secondary" is your "cheating affair partner?"

I am sorry you struggle. FWIW? Here is my opinion. I am not sure if it will help you any.

- should I interfere in her fantasies about this jerk?

No. But you can tell your GF that you don't want to hear about him any more.

If she continues on the path to self destruction with this guy? You could end it with her so you can be free from from it. Get you out of the line of fire.

- should I try to treat her less well so as to get more of her attention?

You could just ASK for more attention. She either gives it or not.

If what she is willing to give does not suit you? You can become ok with what she CAN give, or end it to free you up to pursue someone who has more attention to give you.

You can see this guy behaves like a jerk and hurts her. Why would you consider hurting her too?

- should I just wait for her to get tired of him?

That is your call. I have a limit of tolerance. You have yours. Define to yourself how long you want to wait. Surely it isn't 5, 10, 50, 100 years on this, right? There is a point where you decide you have waited enough, things are not changing, so you let it go and move on.

- should I keep helping her to build her self-esteem so she could see more brightly at some point?

Has she asked for help?

What did she ask?

Is what she requests appropriate, rational, and reasonable?

Are you willing AND able to give it?

I think a person needs to be able to validate their own self. You propping her up? That's draining for you, and doesn't really teach her the skill. It's just temporarily filling her up.

Self esteem is what a person thinks about their behavior. If she hangs with jerk who treats her bad? She cannot be proud of that behavior. She has to figure out how to treat herself with self RESPECT. Then she can be proud of her behaviors that support that.

I wonder if she's with the jerk because it helps her reinforce a core belief that "she stinks" somehow and being with him "proves" it and that's all she deserves. If so? It may be that she needs to be willing to CHANGE that belief, and then willing to seek professional help. All her job and her responsibility. Most people aren't in that profession, and even if you were a counselor, it would not be ethical for you to treat your own GF.

You could ASK her if she's at the place where she's willing to work on herself. If yes, you can offer to do small things like hold her hand while she calls to make her doc appointment. Or drive her to her first appointment so show your support.

But she has to take personal responsibility for herself and do the actual work of changing. You cannot do this FOR her.

I don't think empathy is recommended when someone is on a path of self-destruction. No one would recommend to empathize with someone taking drugs, you'd just make them stop taking them.

If she's hell bent on sinking? You cannot stop it and you don't have to keep her company.

It's not my place to make an addict stop taking drugs. I cannot control other people's behavior. It IS my place to get me away from them. I can control my own behavior.

Do you think you can control other people's behavior? Why not make her aware of your personal boundaries instead? Maybe something like... "I cannot support someone doing self harm. I wish you would get help. I cannot hang out with you if you continue on this path."

Let me ask you this...Is she your drug?

I feel she's acting like how addicts sometimes do, i.e. they will ask for help a first time, then when told they need to stop they pretend to, but they just keep doing it in secret.

You seem to recognize that the behavior would just go underground. So what makes you think you can make her stop it?

I did come across some girls who were taking advantage of me being too nice, and in most cases I managed to turn around things, precisely by being less nice, or playing games (which I despised, but that served me well).

People who take advantage of you don't sound nice to date. Why stay? Why not just break up with them? Saying you hate "playing games" but playing them serve you well -- what exactly were you after?

Are you afraid of being alone? You want to feel in charge? Something else?

I think you could tell your GF you cannot support her obsession. Tell her you wish she would get help. But if she's not going to, then you have to end it because you don't want to watch her self abuse.

Then focus to work on your marriage -- even if that means ending it clean there.

I could be wrong in my guess. But I wonder if you are all caught up with the GF's problems because it helps you avoid dealing with yours?

As for why I am not leaving my wife, well, as in most cases: kids. We still have frequent good times together as a family, and it would feel a shame to deliberately destroy this by breaking up. Besides the fact that I've spent more days in my life than without her, making her a very good friend.

I see that you want to keep doing things as a family, but that is possible to do as co-parents. You don't have to be married to be polite to each other and hang out with the kids doing something.

Galagirl

 

[polygone]

Thanks so much GalaGirl, there's a lot of wisdom in what you wrote, going to respond on some points, sorry if I don't do justice do the amount of thought that went in your post, it'll take me some time to process it and even get 1/10th of answers to all the questions you are raising.

You could just ASK for more attention. She either gives it or not.

If what she is willing to give does not suit you? You can become ok with what she CAN give, or end it to free you up to pursue someone who has more attention to give you.

Turns out that I actually brought up the subject and I found out that, in all fairness, when in public, she doesn't give the jerk any more attention than to me (more the opposite in fact). She's not into hugging / cuddling / and PDAs in general, and I think that is what makes me feel not getting attention. I raised it to her a week ago, and she asked what she can do, and even though initially she said it would be hard for her because it's not in her nature, she actually warmed up quite significantly at our subsequent dates.

You can see this guy behaves like a jerk and hurts her. Why would you consider hurting her too?

I would hate that, but I just feel that contrary to him, I am not a manipulator, and I genuinely enjoy making people happy. So I wouldn't want to 'hurt' her, but I thought that if I behaved in a slightly colder way, if I stopped anticipating all her needs, jumping through hoops to make her happy, she might start realizing the value of when I do it, and would double her efforts to show me attention instead of focussing it on someone who clearly does not deserve it.

I wonder if she's with the jerk because it helps her reinforce a core belief that "she stinks" somehow and being with him "proves" it and that's all she deserves. If so? It may be that she needs to be willing to CHANGE that belief, and then willing to seek professional help. All her job and her responsibility. Most people aren't in that profession, and even if you were a counselor, it would not be ethical for you to treat your own GF.

You could ASK her if she's at the place where she's willing to work on herself. If yes, you can offer to do small things like hold her hand while she calls to make her doc appointment. Or drive her to her first appointment so show your support.

You may be right that this deserves professional help. Even though I've seen people do that in the past, it didn't occur to me that it would be helpful here. As for here reinforcing the belief she stinks, that's very true. She is very smart (I am speaking genius smart), yet dropped off college and is in a job that pays barely above minimum wage, when I know for sure she could be doing one of these IT or Finance jobs where people make 6 figures. When I bring it up and try to brainstorm with her to find ways she could get out of the mess sh

It's not my place to make an addict stop taking drugs. I cannot control other people's behavior. It IS my place to get me away from them. I can control my own behavior.

Do you think you can control other people's behavior? Why not make her aware of your personal boundaries instead? Maybe something like... "I cannot support someone doing self harm. I wish you would get help. I cannot hang out with you if you continue on this path."

This is where I beg to differ, but time may prove me wrong. I think that if you care about someone you should do everything to help them rather than give up. Or maybe you and I agree, and it's all down to how long before I give up?

Let me ask you this...Is she your drug?

Well I am so happy to have met her, and I had to not see it again it would certainly be very painful. I have met many people in my life, travelled and lived in lots of countries, and I can say that she is absolutely unique. She has many shortcomings, some of which I actually enjoy (and it's very mutual), plus she has a number of center of interests and points in common with me that I've never dreamt of finding. I am pretty sure I will never meet anyone like her in the future, which doesn't mean my life will suck, just that I'd be sad for having tasted something and knowing I will struggle to find it again.

People who take advantage of you don't sound nice to date. Why stay? Why not just break up with them? Saying you hate "playing games" but playing them serve you well -- what exactly were you after?

Are you afraid of being alone? You want to feel in charge? Something else?

Well it's usually only with hindsight that I realized they took advantage of me. The story that happened a couple of times were girls who I would date and yet would play hard to get, would consider me as a secondary priority, and, because I felt there was some potential, I would keep trying to hang around. Then it would not work, I would take my distance, hang out with other girls, and then have the gf realize she's about to lose me, and do everything to draw my attention again. Clearly these were dysfunctional relationships, and over the years I've stayed clear of these.

The situation here is slightly more subtle. My secondary does make me a priority, she is always keen to meet up, never plays hard to get. If it were not for her lack of PDA and that jerk's obsession I would have nothing to complain about.

I see that you want to keep doing things as a family, but that is possible to do as co-parents. You don't have to be married to be polite to each other and hang out with the kids doing something.

Galagirl

I like the 'you don't have married to be polite to each other'. This is very true and so right and yet clearly people (including myself) always consider that divorce should mean totally breaking up the connection with the ex-spouse (and stop behaving in a courteous fashion). Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts Galagirl.

 

[Tinwen]

I don't think empathy is recommended when someone is on a path of self-destruction. No one would recommend to empathize with someone taking drugs, you'd just make them stop taking them.

I don't know if it's right or wrong, but this TED talk questions the idea.
http://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_you_know_about_addiction_is_wrong

 

[IndieSolo]

I think her other relationship is her business to deal with, not yours. As long as you keep comparing how she acts with him to how she acts with you, you will create drama and mischief. How and who she is when she's with him is none of your business. You never know - maybe if she compares the two of you, he's the bigger prize. Ask for what you need, but NOT in comparison to what he gets - only what you need. Otherwise, you're just being petty, trying to "get yours" and keep things even. I think you've got your own housekeeping to attend to before you meddle in hers, TBH.

 

[polygone]

I'm going through an amicable divorce, not because there isn't heartbreak and hurt but because we are choosing to focus mainly on what is good. Divorce need not happen just because things have gotten to a breaking point. It doesn't have to go that far. Your children be influenced much more by your vibe than by any "good family times" that you think you're providing them. If you and your wife proceed with clarity and good will, that's what your children will feel. No matter what it looks like, no matter if spouses are together or not, children are always in tune with what their parents are emitting. Most divorce is hard on children because their parents are in strife, not because the parents separate. Get right with the struggle and your children will feel the peace of your ease. The best gift that you can give your children is your own authentic happiness.

Thanks for your testimony, this is helping me get more courage to consider doing what in the end could be better for all of us.

Judging from your focus on your "secondary's" problems, you, yourself have a muddled idea of what you want for your own life. I'd urge you to focus on what you want and on how you feel -with her and at home with your family. She simply reflects to you the cloudiness of your own vision for yourself. The more clarity you have about yourself and about what is right for you, the easier your relationships will be.

Many people seem to concur with you regarding that I need to focus on my primary and my issues first, but I think this is all a very simplified approach to life. I do have issues w my primary, and the lack of support from family / friend to air them has led me to end up sharing these issues with a partner like her instead. I am managing my career in parallel with helping my wife raise the kids, and in all fields there can be ups and downs. I also have a couple of artistic hobbies which keep me busy.

And yet there is always bandwidth to help other people, especially if these are people I care about, and even more if their issues affect our relationship. And I don't think they need to be asking for help for me to try and give it.

You never need to "help fix" anyone else, and when you feel that you do, that's a sure sign that you've got some internal work to do on yourself.

OK no disrespect, but this does not make any sense. If anything, the more balanced you are, the more chance there is you can identify and help people who need to be 'fixed'. I've met several people who had all kind of issues, and came to me or my wife for mentoring, and I believe these people were grateful for whatever advice or support we gave them. I don't see how finding people who need help means you've got issues yourself (not that I deny having shortcomings).