What to do? She doesn't think I love her enough.

C

CutiePie444

New member
I'm in a relationship with a man and a woman. They were boyfriend and girlfriend first, then I got invited a couple months ago. The man was my high school crush and then I lost contact with him for 20 years. The woman I met upon reconnecting with the man and we immediately hit it off as best friends- she is literally the best friend I ever had.

I've been half in love with the man for over half my life and since we all started dating, I am hopelessly head over heels.

The woman, my best friend-turned girlfriend, I understand that this is hard for her. She says she's okay with me falling in love with him, that me and him were supposed to fall in love, etc, but I don't think she's totally okay with it. I think it hurts her that I love him differently than I love her- I honestly don't know how to describe how I love her. I consider myself a straight woman... but I'm attracted to her in every way. I love her differently than I love our boyfriend, but I do not love her less or in any inferior way than I love him, just different because I love different people differently because they are different people. Likewise, all my ex-boyfriends, I loved differently than I love our boyfriend, because they were different people than our boyfriend, different ways of connecting with them. I've tried explaining this to my girlfriend, but she does not get it- she only hears that I love our boyfriend.

I've explained it to our boyfriend today and he got it, however he made it clear that there will be no lovey-dovey between he and I until she feels I love her just as much, if not more, and in the exact same way. I can't- they are different people. I would die without her, I would want to grow old with her regardless of whether or not he was around, because I do love her. Very much.

I can't love her exactly the way I love him, because they are two different people, so it's not good enough for her and I don't know how to make it good enough for her.

I can't openly love him because neither of us want to hurt her, and that hurts me, that I always have to come second- they were a couple first, I have to step back, if it doesn't work out, I'm the one who's opted out. (I suspect he also loves me, but that doesn't change the fact that we made a deal, I didn't realize how much I'd grow to love them, but technically, I could lose them at any time.) I step back on so many things because I understand it's hard for her (anyone) to adjust to sharing the love of their life- they go places together, they sleep together while I sleep elsewhere, they will be the ones getting married, celebrating their anniversary together, they hold hands when we all go on a date together and they have long arguements in front of me on who loves the other more, etc. I've told her I love her and she's said she loves me as well. Am I wrong to feel sad that me loving her is not enough, or not the "right" kind of love she thinks I should be giving her? Am I wrong to want to tell my (our) boyfriend I love him and hope to someday be able to hear it back?

What can I do to help her understand this? We've already talked- it turns into a fight where she feels I'm trying to take him from her. A part of me tells me that I should just walk away, but I'm not strong enough- losing either one of them would emotionally kill me. I've been in love with him for over 20 years and I've never loved anyone like her before, and very few people as deeply, as well.
 
Hi CutiePie444,

Re:
"I've explained it to our boyfriend today and he got it, however he made it clear that there will be no lovey-dovey between he and I until she feels I love her just as much, if not more, and in the exact same way."
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That's crazy. No one can love two people in exactly the same way. And even if they could, how are they supposed to convey it convincingly?

I don't know what to suggest. I know you don't want to walk away but at the same time, your boyfriend and girlfriend are placing impossible demands on you. You deserve better.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
A breakup will not kill you.

It will hurt - maybe a lot. It will suck. But breakups happen every day, people survive them, and you would too.

Going in with the notion that you can't break up - no matter what the reason for that is - makes you vulnerable to some horrible things. I don't recommend it.

I think that each person involved gets to set their own terms for involvement in the relationship and from there, you hopefully have sensible discussions and come to a reasonable agreement. If you can't do that, the only healthy course is to walk away.

There may be something to be said for digging a little deeper in this situation. It's not crazy to have a boundary around physical displays of affection in front of each other's other partners, and it's worth finding out the exact limits of that. However, if the situation is that your relationships with each of them have to be identical, and they're not capable of looking at that request and realizing how impossible it is, you DO deserve better, and you may need to walk away.
 
I'm going to say that, in all likelihood, this isn't going to end well for you. It almost never does for the "third," and this has pretty much every red flag going up.

You should read this, and have them read it: So Someone Called You a Unicorn Hunter. Even though they may not have gone out looking for it, you are the "unicorn" in this scenario. It may help you to express your issues, and them to see what they're doing wrong.

You should also do a search here on "Triad," "unicorn"" and "couple privilege," and read those threads. Also, think about what you want in life, and what they're actually offering. A chance to be a dirty secret forever? Or are they willing to come out to family and friends? They plan to get married, and you'll...what? Have no legal rights, but also not date anyone else? Or, are you free to look for a nesting partner of your own.

As BlueShoes says, breaking up will suck. It will hurt. But, it will not kill you. Right now, they're not being realistic, or treating you as a person with your own rights, needs, and emotions. That isn't a healthy dynamic for any relationship.
 
I am sorry you struggle. What kind of Open Model are you guys trying to practice? Do you all agree on that?

I've explained it to our boyfriend today and he got it, however he made it clear that there will be no lovey-dovey between he and I until she feels I love her just as much, if not more, and in the exact same way. I can't- they are different people.
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Why is she in charge of what happens in the (you + BF) tier of relationship? :confused: Did you make this agreement or did they make it and expected you just to go along?

Why is not (you + BF) will decide when (you + BF) get lovey dovey? It is fair for her to ask for sex health labs and sex practices if (you + BF) doings can impact her own health choices. That is reasonable and fair.

It is not fair for her to tell (you + BF) what you can and cannot do as a couple and when you are allowed to do it. Any more than it would be fair for BF to tell (you+GF) what to do or you to tell (BF+ GF) what to do.

You may not like it, but breaking up is always an option. You are not imprisoned here. You could feel sad about it, it might not be your first choice, but in time you could heal and move on.

You know what? No JADE. Could not justify, argue, defend, or explain. Could tell her you love her. Period. If explaining details like how you love each person differently is ADDING to problems rather than TAKING AWAY, accept it and just keep it simpler.

"Yes. I love you."
"No, I do not."

Stop talking about feelings and start talking about behavior.

Ask for what behavior she would like you to do and what behavior she does not want you to do. If reasonable, and rational requests? And you are willing and able to meet them? Meet them. Stop talking about things that cannot really be measured like "love me enough" and focus on behavior you CAN measure. Did you take out the trash or not? Are you polite when you talk to her or rude? Do you keep promises or flake out?

If not willing/able to meet her requests or if they are unreasonable or not rational? Negotiate for what you can. Or simply decline with "No. I am sorry. I am not willing/able to do that. I am willing to do X."

She can deal with her emotional management. You and BF cannot make the whole world a soft bubble for her so she never has to experience or deal with yucky feelings. Some feelings are fun, some are not. They all pass.

I don't know if page 5 and 6 help, but maybe it does.

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/Jealousy_Updated_10-6-10.pdf

IMHO, for a polyship to be healthy, all the "mini relationships" inside it need to be healthy. Otherwise the system as a whole is not healthy.

SINGLES

You <--> you
GF <-->GF
BF <--> BF

How each of your processes things, thinks, talks to yourself in your own head, believe, value, cope, etc.

DOUBLES

You <--> GF
You <--> BF
GF <--> BF

How these people relate to each other.

TRIPLES

(You + GF) <--> BF
(You + BF) <--> GF
(GF + BF) <--> you

How each of you deal with the other two as a couple, respect their privacy, space, need for each couple to have time on their own, the need for expression, etc. How each couple treats the other one too.

ALL

(You + BF + GF)

How all of you deal with communicating as a trio, avoiding misunderstandings, solving problems, being "out" or not, etc.

If there's a problem in any of those mini layers, then the ripple effect will be felt throughout the system. Figure out where the bumps are, and who is responsible for what part of the problem solving.

But if it is a totally skewed thing where it all revolves around her and what she says and what she's comfortable with and you feel stifled? Remember it is ok to walk away. You have the right to break up and leave something that is not so great for you.

Galagirl
 
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GalaGirl said:
I am sorry you struggle. What kind of Open Model are you guys trying to practice? Do you all agree on that?
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I haven't learned the terms yet, but I believe we're all supposed to eventually fall in love with eachother. They keep telling me that me and her are to be equal, but I honestly don't see it happening- the transition is hard for her and she seems to be okay as long as he loves her best, etc. He seems okay with things as long as everybody's happy (her trumping me only because they've been together years, but he has taken my "side" in a couple arguments). Me, I thought I had a good deal there- my best friend and the guy who I've loved since forever- but it's more complicated than that now.

GalaGirl said:
Why is she in charge of what happens in the (you + BF) tier of relationship? :confused: Did you make this agreement or did they make it and expected you just to go along?

The original agreement was, if it didn't work, I'd back out. That was unrealistic- I forgot that I might have feelings for him or her. Our boyfriend and I try to make her happy because she has some issues from a previous relationship. I don't think any of or forsaw exactly what the issues would be or how severe they would be.
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GalaGirl said:
You know what? No JADE. Could not justify, argue, defend, or explain. Could tell her you love her. Period. If explaining details like how you love each person differently is ADDING to problems rather than TAKING AWAY, accept it and just keep it simpler.

"Yes. I love you."
"No, I do not."

Stop talking about feelings and start talking about behavior.

Ask for what behavior she would like you to do and what behavior she does not want you to do. If reasonable, and rational requests? And you are willing and able to meet them? Meet them. Stop talking about things that cannot really be measured like "love me enough" and focus on behavior you CAN measure. Did you take out the trash or not? Are you polite when you talk to her or rude? Do you keep promises or flake out?

If not willing/able to meet her requests or if they are unreasonable or not rational? Negotiate for what you can. Or simply decline with "No. I am sorry. I am not willing/able to do that. I am willing to do X."

She can deal with her emotional management. You and BF cannot make the whole world a soft bubble for her so she never has to experience or deal with yucky feelings. Some feelings are fun, some are not. They all pass.
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I like that. I will try it.

GalaGirl said:
Why is not (you + BF) will decide when (you + BF) get lovey dovey? It is fair for her to ask for sex health labs and sex practices if (you + BF) doings can impact her own health choices. That is reasonable and fair.
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The three of us can have sex, her and I can have sex, he and I can have sex, her and he can have sex. That doesn't seem to be the problem. The only rules about sex are, no babies for me 'cause she can't have babies, and I'm okay with that.

It's the feelings part she's concerned about- he told me he loved me the other night and she overheard, so he took it back because she freaked out. She had previously told both me and him that it's okay if we fall in love, etc.
 
GreenAcres said:
Also, think about what you want in life, and what they're actually offering. A chance to be a dirty secret forever? Or are they willing to come out to family and friends? They plan to get married, and you'll...what? Have no legal rights, but also not date anyone else? Or, are you free to look for a nesting partner of your own.
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The plan is to eventually get a duplex- one side for each female (because we like our own space) and he can come and go on both sides. They'll marry because they were originally gonna marry before I came into the picture. I'm the one who's mostly insisting on a secret for now- I don't consider myself bi or gay (only been attracted to her ever), plus, I come from a very religious family, so there would be some serous backlash, if not for the female-female part, then for the "immoral threesome sex" part. Also, both me and our boyfriend have kids and there's that fear of losing custody/visitation.

I would be very happy in life to spend it with both of them permanently. I would be okay with spending life with just her if he bailed. I would be okay with spending life with just him is she bailed. Both of them make me very happy and I enjoy life with them. Usually.
 
kdt26417 said:
Hi CutiePie444,

Re:


That's crazy. No one can love two people in exactly the same way. And even if they could, how are they supposed to convey it convincingly?

I don't know what to suggest. I know you don't want to walk away but at the same time, your boyfriend and girlfriend are placing impossible demands on you. You deserve better.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
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Our boyfriend totally gets it, only he's not willing to risk losing her- she has threatened to leave if I "replace her". I get that. Sucks, but I get that.

I do agree that it's impossible demands. I can't "prove" my love enough for her because everything I do, she only sees what I do for him. The original agreement, which I agreed on, was for me to walk away if this is hurting Nichole. I suggested that agreement to Paul and the two of us made that agreement together. I didn't realize that I'd fall in love with him or that I would have such deep feelings for her as well (I had never felt for a woman that way before), and that in time, that agreement would start to feel unfair to me, but it is also my fault, for agreeing in the first place.
 
Hi Cutiepie, welcome to the board.

You're in a tough, but all too common, situation. You are not alone, we hear this story time and time again here. You came to the right place.

In GalaGirl's post, she asked what model of relationship you want. She provided a link, her words in blue? Click on that for examples of open relationships. Read it. Then come back to my post.

All done? OK, now you have some groundwork done.

Now, to address what is going on in your particular situation...

You had a crush on BF years ago and "carried a torch" for him, despite having been with another man or men long enough to have had kids. How long have BF and GF been together? Is this their first try at "polyamory?"

It sounds like they just wanted a girl to spice up their relationship. Saying "no loving feelings are allowed to happen" stems from ignorance. Feelings often follow sex. It's a brain chemistry thing. Many hormones are stirred up during sex, dating, cuddling and spending time together. There is no way to prevent that. It's just unreasonable and foolish to not realise that.

So, it's happened. You feel you love them both. But you made a prior agreement to leave them if ANYTHING about the relationship made GF uncomfortable.

It sounds like you and BF want to renegotiate the agreement made in ignorance. But GF wants to "protect" the couple by insisting she always come first. However, you all have a fantasy about a side by side dwelling where BF goes back and forth, which sounds like a 3 primary model, not a "couple" and a secondary "girl on the side."

Also, GF is infertile, and another fear of hers is you and BF having a kid together, which would make her extremely envious. This is understandable, being infertile sucks. Sounds like there are enough kids in the mix already, so let's set that aside for now.

This couple have unrealistic expectations. And they are struggling to live in a dream world. How can BF tell you he loves you, then "take it back?" He does love you, and GF knows it now. There's no going back.

The secondary always suffers in this kind of situation. You seem to be very modest and accepting that BF and GF will get alllll the goodies. The legal and financial protections of marriage, doing things with their bio families, etc. You will be the dirty little secret. And if you all came out, you'd have issues with your conservative family. What about your kids? Would they know? Seems like they would, and kids have a way of slipping up and telling grandma and grandpa, aunt and uncle, about Mommy's girlfriend and boyfriend. And you're personally embarrassed at your new lesbianic feelings. Why did you enter into a triad knowing you were straight? Why did you have sex with her, being straight? Why even do threesome sex, or FF sex, at all?

Probably because she's bi. And he's straight, and he has the most common male fantasy of all, two women in his bed.

But now. You "love" (or are infatuated) with her. You "love" (or are infatuated with) him. He loves (or has a crush on) you. GF feels a ton of fear, jealousy and envy of you. Maybe she kinda likes you. Maybe she enjoys the sex. No way is she ready to fully embrace sharing "her" BF with you.

They are not ready for polyamory. They just wanted to get their rocks off and enjoy fulfilling a fantasy that has no basis in reality.

Bitch slaps from reality suck. And it sounds like the more you feel forced to JADE to GF, the worse it gets.

If I were you? I'd step back. I'd stop texting them. Stop visiting them. Don't call, don't check their Facebooks. Just chill for a week. Let the bad feelings die down a little. Let them work on THEIR problem. It's a huge problem.

So, take a break. Yes, it will hurt. Yes, you will grieve. Yes, there will be a hole in your heart. But things suck now. They will also suck when you take a break. But at least you won't be making things worse for them, or yourself, by more arguments and JADEing about stupid demands about "loving both of them exactly the same." How childish of her to harp on that. We all love our friends and family members in unique ways. She's just scared of losing him.

They made a big mistake going unicorn hunting. And now you feel committed to a woman who is basically throwing your love back in your face and spitting at you.

Respect yourself and step back. It might need to be a permanent breakup. But at least give them some time to work things out a bit without you being always in her face.

Take care of yourself. Eat well, exercise, sleep, do your hobbies, play with your kids, see friends, consider other dating partners. Heck, if you can get away, take a little trip somewhere, enjoy the calming effects of being out in nature. Breathe.
 
I just checked your intro thread. They've been together almost 3 years. You reconnected with BF a few months ago, entered into a sexual relationship a mere 2 months ago.

You are head over heels in NRE (new relationship energy). It's making you crazy. Their NRE for each other has probably faded recently, causing them to want to spice things up by fooling around with threeway sex.

You won't die without them. That's just funky brain chemistry making you feel that. It's far too soon to be imagining growing old together. Slow down the crazy. Get a hold of yourself. Get your head together. Take a break and breathe...

If you fear you'd die if you had to walk away, either stop eating and wither away, or actually commit suicide, call 911 and get counseling, now.
 
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How is division of time going to work if he's.going to be going back and forth between two homes? Like you and him one night, you and her one night, her and him one night, all three of you one night on a rotation?

What if you accidentally get pregnant? Will you get an abortion since she can't get pregnant?
 
Inyourendo said:
How is division of time going to work if he's.going to be going back and forth between two homes? Like you and him one night, you and her one night, her and him one night, all three of you one night on a rotation?

What if you accidentally get pregnant? Will you get an abortion since she can't get pregnant?
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Her and I like our own "space", but like to spend every moment together, if that makes sense. We plan on having a door between the duplexes and the only reason why we'd want a duplex instead of one big apartment is because his child doesn't always get along with my youngest child and it would be best if we have seperate places for them. Not sure how the sleeping arrangements would work out- as it is, he's out of town during the week, so she stays at my apartment with me and sleeps with me, and when he comes into town on the weekends, they usually sleep in my bed and I sleep in the recliner.

I got an IUD. She made it clear that if any accidents happen, she's walking away. I made it clear that I do not believe in abortion, so that would be an option. I also made it clear that no oopsies can happen because I'm not willing to have an abortion and I'm not willing to risk losing my girlfriend.
 
CutiePie444 said:
Not sure how the sleeping arrangements would work out- as it is, he's out of town during the week, so she stays at my apartment with me and sleeps with me, and when he comes into town on the weekends, they usually sleep in my bed and I sleep in the recliner.

I got an IUD. She made it clear that if any accidents happen, she's walking away. I made it clear that I do not believe in abortion, so that would be an option. I also made it clear that no oopsies can happen because I'm not willing to have an abortion and I'm not willing to risk losing my girlfriend.
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Why do they get your bed? I think this is one of the easier things to fix. If they don't want to share your bed with you, then they can go home to their bed on the weekends. As for accidents, they can happen despite our best efforts to prevent them, unfortunately.
 
PinkPig said:
Why do they get your bed? I think this is one of the easier things to fix. If they don't want to share your bed with you, then they can go home to their bed on the weekends. As for accidents, they can happen despite our best efforts to prevent them, unfortunately.
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I insisted at first that they get the bed, because she was super insecure to begin with and she was the best friend I ever had. She's happy with the sleeping arrangements, but he does not like them at all- he wants us to switch off nights until I can afford a bigger bed and he's suggested him sleeping alone in the recliner. Both her and I agree that since he's on the road all week and only home 2, maybe 3 nights a week, neither of us are going to let him sleep alone. I kinda backed myself into a corner there, set myself up to be the odd one out, just like I accidentally backed myself into a corner with the agreement that if it doesn't work out, I'm dumped by default.
 
Somebody asked about if it's anyone's first poly relationship.\

My girlfriend had a husband and a girlfiend. She divorced her husband, broke up with her girlfriend and eventually started dating our boyfriend. Her and our boyfriend then took the girlfriend back and dated her for a while, and then ended up dumping her because she got into drugs and they don't do that kind of thing. This is my first poly experience.
 
I think you could be more honest and up front. You are all still in transition and figuring out "the new normal" and what that will be like.

I insisted at first that they get the bed, because she was super insecure to begin with and she was the best friend I ever had. She's happy with the sleeping arrangements, but he does not like them at all- he wants us to switch off nights until I can afford a bigger bed and he's suggested him sleeping alone in the recliner. Both her and I agree that since he's on the road all week and only home 2, maybe 3 nights a week, neither of us are going to let him sleep alone. I kinda backed myself into a corner there, set myself up to be the odd one out, just like I accidentally backed myself into a corner with the agreement that if it doesn't work out, I'm dumped by default.
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That does not sound respectful. He's stated where his consent lies -- share time or he prefers to sleep in the recliner. You two decided you are not going to let him sleep alone even if that is what he wants? Why are you two overriding where he wants his body to be?

It's like her overriding you and BF on other areas on whether or not you can express lovey-dovery things like hugs, kisses, or "I love you's" in front of her. You don't have to slobber all over each other or fuck in front of her. But simple gestures like a hug or kiss hello/goodbye or saying "I love you" doesn't have to be earth shattering. Is this not behavior you all expect with loving couples?

I think all of you could revisit consent and respecting other people's boundaries.

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/how-society-treats-consent/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGoWLWS4-kU

Not just about sexual matters, but things in general.

The original agreement, which I agreed on, was for me to walk away if this is hurting Nichole. I suggested that agreement to Paul and the two of us made that agreement together. I didn't realize that I'd fall in love with him or that I would have such deep feelings for her as well (I had never felt for a woman that way before), and that in time, that agreement would start to feel unfair to me, but it is also my fault, for agreeing in the first place.
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If you made a poor agreement, once you realize it you could inform people you decline to uphold it any more. And say you would like to adjust it to fit PRESENT circumstances. Give them the heads up on where you stand NOW. They cannot be mind readers.

Things change. If no new agreement can be made? You could move on to be with one or the other or neither.

Spending your life shrinking yourself and shrinking your wants/needs just to maintain access to both doesn't sound healthy to me. That a good way to become ressentful over time. :(

I strong suggest you sort all that out BEFORE you all invest in a duplex property. Invest in a poly friendly counselor if your group needs help through the transition phase so all these insecurities and jealousies can be laid to rest. If you guys cannot do it on your own, it is totally ok to ask for help.

If she's struggling with poly hell feelings, you all could read that together and talk about how to handle it. Focus on how to COPE rather than focus on "prevent feeling anything yucky ever."

If the bottom line is that she wanted only sex, not sex + love? Or she only wanted a short fling and not really wanting Open? If she wasn't totally honest about that, or she came to realize it later -- the sooner y'all sort that out the better. Everyone lay their cards on the table and talk it out.

Don't drag it out walking on eggshells and risk a bigger explosion later from hidden growing resentments. I don't know if these might help in the talks:

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/A._Wagner_-_Avoid_the_Pitfalls_of_Polyamory.pdf

http://www.practicalpolyamory.com/images/14_steps_to_opening_a_relationship.pdf

But I think if it's time for a counselor -- rather than go investing in a duplex you could invest in that FIRST.

Galagirl
 
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Wow, that's a lot of bullshit they're handing you. If I were you, I'd dump them now while it's still so early on in the relationship. Life is too short to waste time on an arrangement like this where such ridiculous demands are placed on you and you will likely always be treated as second-best. Ick. Some maturity is needed here - it all sounds like such junior high drama, I don't even know how you have possibly put up with it even for just the last two months! It always amazes me the crumbs people accept being tossed their way when instead they can have a whole, satisfying meal. Do you actually believe you deserve this shit? Run and save yourself. Seriously. Don't wait for them to dump you - walk away with your head held high. There's much better out there.
 
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I am going to echo what a few have pointed out. Do you believe you deserve this kind of treatment?

I am also going to echo the statement that if the relationship ends you will not emotionally, physically or psychologically die. I know, from my own personal experience, that it FEELS like you will die but trust me. You won't. You will have a choice to wither or live. That's all you.

This situation sounds so unhealthy and so drama and angst ridden. I read it and thought, why? Why would you chose to live that way? Why would you allow your child to see you treated that way? Why would you want to be treated as less than, second best or the dirty secret?

That is the one lesson I learned from my own heartbreak. I am no man's secret. That means, I am an equal, not a secondary or the side chick. I refuse. I may get hurt again, and I have, but better to be hurt once than be hurt again and again. I deserve better.

Here's the thing, you deserve better. You deserve a love that is freeing and open. One that helps you grow and makes you want to be who you are in your fullest capacity. Love isn't possession. What you wrote, is all about possession. Don't be that. You're a woman, you are human. Choose you, not them.
 
I think it is sad you call this woman the best friend you've ever had, when she is treating you this way. You deserve better.

GG, I think focusing on which bed the BF sleeps in is a bit of a tangent. That is so minor compared to the behavior of the GF in regards to her jealousy and need for control. We see she has a bad history of relationships. Married, gf on the side. Dumps husband and gf. Gets new bf, gets gf back, dumps her again! She seems to prey on women with low self esteem who are satisfied with crumbs, and who will take emotional abuse and call it "the best friend they ever had."
 
I think sometimes people aren't ready to take a stand about the big stuff yet. So it could start with taking a stand about the small stuff.

OP, what's your desired outcome at this time? How can people help you?

Galagirl
 
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