The story of Spork.

And I hate how when I do try to express my feelings, if I have to say something that people don't want to hear, and then they get upset, I feel like I started a whole mess by being the one who put my stuff out there on the table. Things were fine until I rocked the boat. I wish I could take it all back and shut up and smile and stop having -problems.- Stop BEING a problem.

I feel you so hard here. Every time I have a problem with something, it is so hard for me to say something without feeling like I "ruined something."

Whether it just be something as small as "we were having a good night until I ruined it" or something as large as "we were happily going along [whatever the general life status quo is] until I ruined it," it has always been hard for me to express that I have needs (or even just wants) that I suspect may conflict with what the other person needs or wants.

I am getting better about it, slowly, by reminding myself that it isn't until I am genuine and honest about what I need and I want that I can determine if I am truly compatible with someone. Why would I hide from that knowledge? Fear, of course: fear that if we turn out not to be compatible in enough ways, or can't find a compromise that suits us both, we will have to walk away from each other. And that is terrifying.

But, slowly, I am coming to realize that a life in which I never get what I need or want because I'm not willing to risk disclosing those needs and desires is MORE terrifying than it would be to lose someone(s) who turn out to be not as compatible when the chips are down as I'd hoped they were. Because, like, I only get one life—if I don't spend my limited time striving for my own ideal, then maybe I have wasted it. THAT is terrifying!
 
So I had dinner with Analyst last night. Cleared the air some. I suppose.

He did illuminate something about how upset he was over the whole Zen at Thunder business, something I'd been very thoughtless about, and I should have known better and realized.

Thunder fell around the approximate timeframe of our one-year anniversary, from when we started our relationship. And Analyst is really all about celebrating special days. That sort of thing, it's a big deal for him. And I really blew it by not even thinking about that. THAT is why I was supposed to have been "his date" at Thunder. Damn. I fucked that up.

Also, apparently he is not playing with Silk right now in any meaningful capacity and says that she is not "replacing" me. I have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand I feel good about it because it means that there isn't a bunch of stuff happening over in their world that I'm not even being told about. That was an uncomfortable feeling. At least I am aware that when I feel disconnected and communication isn't happening, the things I worry about might not even be true...it's speculation, and that's a nasty business. Good to know where I stand, there.

On the other hand, if I had been told that was happening (Silk stepping into my former role with the quad in general, and doing it better than I ever did) I might have felt a sense of relief.

As I've said, I don't want to lose my bonds of friendship with any of my quad-peeps. I dig them. Value them on their own merits. But I'm still not sure that ultimately our relationship needs and life balances are all compatible things. I tried to explain this to Analyst last night, after he said, "You keep saying that I say one thing when I feel or do another, and that is just not true. I find you very attractive..." and so on. Saying he wanted me I guess. I had to be very plain about where I'm coming from. I have had sex with Zen pretty reliably once a week since November. And feel like I've had sex with Analyst OR Hefe, maybe once a month in the same approximate timeframe, on average, and only once EVER with Fire. And that a relationship without sex starts to really just feel like a friendship to me. Not that I'm knocking friendship, as I've had so very few TRUE real actual legit FRIENDS in my life, ever. Like hundreds of "friends"...people who think I'm cool, I think they're cool, we love to hang...but I wouldn't count on, or expect them to really count on me, and I wouldn't call them if I was upset or happy or needed to talk about something. Real friends, deep friendship, that's like family, is REALLY rare for me and very special.

I explained all of that.

In the past he's said that he's had other stresses that took his mind off of sex, made him not really want sex.

My heart says, "Well then please don't make me lay in bed next to you while you exclaim about your cam girl sending you video of her vagina." See, my entire concept of "jealousy" is rooted in scarcity. I don't think, "If the other person would go away everything would be great" like they are my rival, and if my needs are met, I don't wonder if they are better than me. But if my needs for intimacy aren't met, I think, "he doesn't want me." It's not that he doesn't want. He doesn't want ME. And when we get to that place, I've got two possible ways to feel about this, I can feel hurt about it and let it tear down my self esteem, or I can say, "Well, fine...everybody isn't that into everybody" and I can emotionally withdraw from the relationship. I've said from the beginning that I was not "blazing" for anyone so much as it felt like a "warm summer afternoon." It was very good, and it felt safe...from the beginning...but it wasn't the obsessive craziness of being wildly in love. And then it was, with Zen, eventually. Unlooked for, and unplanned for, that happened. I can say with a certainty that if I'd been blazing away for Analyst, or Fire...I'd have been hurt by how our sex lives have gone. And I don't know how it would have gone if I'd felt that way for Hefe, maybe it would have worked out, maybe not. But it has been relatively easy to withdraw instead of letting any of this blast holes in my happiness or self worth here.

Only, apparently that isn't really ok, because I was supposed to be his girlfriend and apparently also his primary, and my commitment to that role was important to his picture of what his life situation and future looked like, or something. We just did a really shit job of communicating our needs and expectations along the way...and maybe they weren't really in line to begin with. I don't know. Fact is when I first started dating Analyst, I didn't have the clearest idea in the world of what I wanted. And I thought I communicated THAT to him, and accordingly kept my commitments somewhat fluid. But what I know I did not communicate, because I didn't even realize it, was the role that sex plays in making me feel bonded with my partner, and how sensitive I am to a lack of it. I certainly didn't have that problem in my marriage, as I was the sex-avoiding one...I'm now cast in the role that Old Wolf used to occupy, telling me for years that I did not make him feel wanted. Well, he's right...I didn't want him, not really. Because I didn't feel safe enough to let the walls down.

So anyhow, at this point we ended the date on a note of "let's just be cool and see where things go." I'm not sure what to hope for, and I'm not sure where we'll end up. The question seems to be whether we can find a place where we can heal from our hurts enough, and feel our needs are met enough, to continue with a relationship...or not. ?? At least we've started talking, and that is something, I figure.
 
I cannot think that I am the first to suggest this to you, but have you looked into Non Violent Communication? It covers all the communication issues you mention and is regularly recommended here. I am reading up on it and it seems like a good way to deal with getting needs heard and met for all concerned.

Leetah
 
Thunder fell around the approximate timeframe of our one-year anniversary, from when we started our relationship. And Analyst is really all about celebrating special days. That sort of thing, it's a big deal for him. And I really blew it by not even thinking about that. THAT is why I was supposed to have been "his date" at Thunder. Damn. I fucked that up.

Also, apparently he is not playing with Silk right now in any meaningful capacity and says that she is not "replacing" me. I have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand I feel good about it because it means that there isn't a bunch of stuff happening over in their world that I'm not even being told about. That was an uncomfortable feeling.
I am very glad you learned about the facts Spork.

Only, apparently that isn't really ok, because I was supposed to be his girlfriend and apparently also his primary, and my commitment to that role was important to his picture of what his life situation and future looked like, or something.
I don't know if it helps or hurts, but when I first came to your blog, not knowing about the history of your relationships and just started to read about the quad, the Fire+Hefe couple, how you spoke about Analyst and how he would want to live together, I got that feeling/expectation too. I thought "ok, primary Fire+Hefe couple ... and Spork+Analyst not yet very commited but also a couple in a quad all together". That must have been shortly before he withdrew somewhat due to the house. It's kind of the standard set of residual monogamous expectations that you'll want to climb the escalator at least somewhat.
Since he had these expectations and wants a partner to live with, I think he will have to mourn this as a break up. Even should you continue as lovers. He thought of you as primary, so he'll be disappointed quite a bit :(
 
Yes, Tinwen, I believe you're right.

I had the feeling, despite his protests to the contrary (many times) that Analyst wanted something a bit more fidelitous and defined than what I was prepared to give. I think that every time I tried to bring it up, he denied it, and he's told me that his expectations were set fairly low...but the sense of hurt and disappointment he is now experiencing belies that. I don't think he was honoring his needs. I think he was not asserting them, because he didn't want to spook me (or Fire) and just hoping that if he could keep it all going, it would either be close enough, or it would evolve in time to what he hoped for. And truly, I think that like most (all?) of us, he's still figuring it out.

He doesn't like it when I point out what I think he needs and will bring him greater happiness. Says he doesn't need a Mommy, doesn't need help, doesn't want someone telling him what is best for him, that he's got this and everything. Doesn't want me to worry about him. Well, I do, regardless, and I think about these things, because I DO care. Making me back off and stop trying to ponder this stuff and share these thoughts, is a thing that will create distance between me and another person. One cannot realistically ask me to stop thinking about things, stop trying to talk about things, and just BE the thing they need me to be, but say they don't expect me to be...I'm not going to stop thinking, which means that either we communicate, or I end up sitting in an unhappy little puddle of confusion, stagnant with my thoughts.

Well anyways. Fire officially "resigned" from the polycule over the weekend. I spent a little time with her and with Hefe. Analyst canceled plans to have us all come help with the house, following this news, and removed all of our relationship-label ties from Fetlife. I think he's quite upset, but does not want to share any of it with anyone right now. I told Fire that I tend to take away the most positive possible things from experiences...and that one could look at this whole situation as a failed experiment or a set of relationships that soured and went wrong and didn't live up to hopes and expectations....or one could see it as having a net gain of some excellent friends, wonderful memories, and good times to come. I still want to spend time and do things with them; they feel the same way. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater, as far as Fire or Hefe or I is concerned.

When the dust settles in Analyst's world, we'll see if he feels that, or not. I'll accept and respect his position regardless...what else can I do?

I'll say one thing though...Fire mentioned that Analyst is a private person and might not appreciate me blogging about him. Well, he has never indicated to me that he has a discomfort with it, and I don't think I've spoken about anything TOO sensitive here, there are certainly details I haven't seen fit to share. But frankly, I'm not going to simply stop speaking about him, if he won't talk TO me a.) about any of the issues that bother me, b.) to tell me not to include him here. I won't be in a position where I have hurt and confusion in my heart and mind, and can't talk about it to anyone. I don't do the whole go off alone and lick my wounds in solitude and quiet, until I can pretend everything is fine. That is not me. But I see it as...either things improve and he asks me not to, in which case I'd honor that... Or things fade and that chapter just ends. So maybe you won't hear much about Analyst in the future, I don't know.

That being possible, I'll say now that while I find him difficult sometimes, and I think he's got some things that he could work through to be happier and healthier, he is one of the most true, noble, and honorable human beings I have ever known. I deeply hope that he doesn't become bitter at not having achieved his desired goal with Fire and I, turn in on himself...because he is a GOOD man. Like not that bullshit "nice guy" who "finishes last"...NO...he's the real thing, like he embodies some really amazing high ideals. I hope he never compromises that for anything or anyone. And I hope that he finds a relationship or relationships, that meet his needs and bring him happiness. I think that if he can be more honest about what he really needs and work on communicating it, then that is more likely. I can definitely cop to being part of that problem from my end, because when we got together, I wasn't even sure WHAT I needed to feel invested and fulfilled in a relationship. I think I've got a better grasp of it now, though...

And I'll continue that thought in another post.
 
So. These are things I've found in my relationship with Zen, that have really made me feel VERY invested emotionally with him.

#1 King of The Important Stuff - COMMUNICATION.
Even when a subject is difficult, awkward, or uncomfortable for one of us, we can talk about it. When I had something on my mind that was hard to discuss, Zen was patient and asked the right questions, and reassured me. When there were things that were difficult for him to discuss, I asked the questions and was patient for the answers, and he opened up and told me. We both feel safe, I think, to at least a functional degree, in being vulnerable to each other. There is not a tension of things unsaid floating around in our airspace. Both of us have a desire to KNOW and understand the other. And our communication never feels hostile or makes me feel anxious, afraid, or avoidant.

-SEX.
Long story short, Zen and I have it frequently. And he is, in many ways, the best lover I've had in my life, because I think we're really compatible in that way. He's toppy and loves to feel in control. I love to surrender control. In fact it's difficult for me to really enjoy myself if I don't. Even when I'm doing something TO him, he tells me what to do, and that is wonderful. I love it.

So I think that's a lot more important than I realized when my relationships were just starting to gel last year. All of the physical intimacy, the naked touch, the time spent just playing with one another and loving on one another, is pretty vital to what makes me feel bonded to my partner. I feel a near-constant hunger for Zen, but at the same time a fullness. This is actually something that occurs to me with the "have your cake and eat it too" saying...I feel like my spirit is full and humming and buzzing with his energy, but at the same time craving more. I keep on eating that cake and there just seems to always be more of it for me to have.

WILLINGNESS TO BE PART OF VARIOUS ASPECTS OF MY WORLD
About once or twice a week for quite a while now, Zen has come over to my place and brought a show or movie for us to watch. He's had conversations with my sons. I don't feel like I'm absent from my home and the presence of my children to an excessive degree as a result of this relationship.

And Zen is comfortable at the social events we go to. I've mentioned all of this before. But whether in company of people we know in the scene, or my sons, he is present without being overwhelming. He doesn't take over and dominate the conversation, so I feel I've got space to BE and speak...but he is THERE in a way that feels very comfortable to me, and he isn't moody or awkward.

This is a tremendous contrast to my ex. He would either refuse to acknowledge or want to meet or talk to my friends, or he would be apart from me, sulking, because I was paying attention to others and not him...or he would, especially if the people were HIS friends, so completely dominate the conversation that I might as well have been invisible. Social situations involving him were almost always uncomfortable for me.

All of this is important information, because while I might have been able to say something like "communication is important" to my partners a year ago, I might not have been able to illustrate exactly what that means, and what it looks like when it's working versus when it isn't. And I had no idea how much I needed a strong sexual bond, because that's been a part of the change in how I feel towards 2 out of 3 in the quad. This is maybe a bunch of "love languages" stuff still, but it's good self awareness, knowing what my own needs are.

.....

Now I will say something funny...over at Fire and Hefe's house, we watched a Wierd Al video called "Do I Creep You Out?" And I noticed, and then someone else mentioned, and we all agreed, that some of the facial expressions made by the cartoon (Southpark style cartoon singer guy) in the video, were a bit reminiscent of Zen. OK, ha ha. But I couldn't help but think, if these folks only realized, if anyone is creepy in this relationship it's not Zen, it's ME.

"Mind if I just try and squeeze into your shirt? It's the closest thing I can manage to crawling into your skin so I can snuggle your insides. That isn't a problem, I hope? No? Good." <--Me, in my head, making fun of myself for some of my clingy behaviors/impulses.

I'm not quite the stalker or one to steal my lover's trash or make an alter to him in my house, but I do love his scent, and I've certainly buried my face in his worn t-shirt when he's stepped out of the room before. And I love looking at him, seeing all the details of his face. I love to just saturate my senses with him.

This is why I think it's miraculous that this level of...intensity, on my part, has not made him reject me. I think most people would probably feel suffocated by this sort of thing. I often have difficulty keeping my hands (and sometimes the rest of me) off him. I feel like some kind of a little squid or something. But I can't help it man, it's like...he's too good to be true. What I'm finding interesting about all of this is, it's tied into whatever degree I'm capable of being someone's submissive. It's like, a desire to do that is all wrapped up in my adoration of him. I can't imagine being able to really submit if I wasn't in love, so I have some difficulty understanding the thing of "identifying" as a submissive, and doing something such as seeking a Dom...as opposed to finding the relationship first and the dynamic either evolving within it, or not. Of course, even now I am not at this point his sub, though he used the word once this weekend and it gave me a bit of a thrill...but he has not consented to be my Dom as of yet. So I won't claim more than what has been offered/given. But I do adore him, and he lets me and he loves me back. I'm very happy with that.
 
.....

Now I will say something funny...over at Fire and Hefe's house, we watched a Wierd Al video called "Do I Creep You Out?" And I noticed, and then someone else mentioned, and we all agreed, that some of the facial expressions made by the cartoon (Southpark style cartoon singer guy) in the video, were a bit reminiscent of Zen. OK, ha ha. But I couldn't help but think, if these folks only realized, if anyone is creepy in this relationship it's not Zen, it's ME.

"Mind if I just try and squeeze into your shirt? It's the closest thing I can manage to crawling into your skin so I can snuggle your insides. That isn't a problem, I hope? No? Good." <--Me, in my head, making fun of myself for some of my clingy behaviors/impulses.

I'm not quite the stalker or one to steal my lover's trash or make an alter to him in my house, but I do love his scent, and I've certainly buried my face in his worn t-shirt when he's stepped out of the room before. And I love looking at him, seeing all the details of his face. I love to just saturate my senses with him.

This is why I think it's miraculous that this level of...intensity, on my part, has not made him reject me. I think most people would probably feel suffocated by this sort of thing. I often have difficulty keeping my hands (and sometimes the rest of me) off him. I feel like some kind of a little squid or something. But I can't help it man, it's like...he's too good to be true. What I'm finding interesting about all of this is, it's tied into whatever degree I'm capable of being someone's submissive. It's like, a desire to do that is all wrapped up in my adoration of him. I can't imagine being able to really submit if I wasn't in love, so I have some difficulty understanding the thing of "identifying" as a submissive, and doing something such as seeking a Dom...as opposed to finding the relationship first and the dynamic either evolving within it, or not. Of course, even now I am not at this point his sub, though he used the word once this weekend and it gave me a bit of a thrill...but he has not consented to be my Dom as of yet. So I won't claim more than what has been offered/given. But I do adore him, and he lets me and he loves me back. I'm very happy with that.

I so understand this, especially the last paragraph. I identify as a switch on Fetlife, mostly because I don't really strongly identify with either the dominant or submissive label. Last summer, a friend with benefits that I've been seeing on and off for about 7 years, offered to switch our relationship from friends with benefits to Dominant/submissive, because he thought it might help me with some of the struggles I was having, mostly centered around how my marriage has changed since we became poly. I have never really considered myself a submissive, I dated a man for a year and a half that strongly identifies as a dominant and during that whole time had no desire at all to be his submissive. We had slightly kinky sex, but that's the only way BDSM entered our relationship, because it was all I wanted. However, when my friend, Sam, offered to be my dominant, being his submissive felt right. I can't really see myself searching out another dom, if mine and Sam's relationship ends. If it happens again naturally, that's one thing, but it's not a relationship dynamic I must have.
 
Right?? I don't know, I have difficulty with sex play that doesn't feel "real." Dress up and roleplay doesn't appeal to me. And messing with D/s stuff if I didn't feel it...not really, no.

Must say though that there are a few fantasies that I won't be able to do if I go exclusive with Zen, I don't think...setting aside my wish to be loving and good and considerate to the partners I've had in my life...and an occasional twinge of attraction for another person or two out there in the world...the question of whether I could find a way to do these things like a "bucket list" of sexual tourism makes me wonder/hesitate just a little. Not really. But a little.

I've always wanted to have an MMF (or more) experience. And there is a scene I had in my mind, the one that was similar to what Silk got to experience...now I'm shy about it. More than I was. My heart feels all funny about it and I don't know if I want to do that now, or if I could perhaps do so at another venue, like maybe in Denver, with different people.
 
Right?? I don't know, I have difficulty with sex play that doesn't feel "real." Dress up and roleplay doesn't appeal to me. And messing with D/s stuff if I didn't feel it...not really, no.

I understand this part too. My husband has always found it weird that I don't fantasize about anything when I'm masterbating. I enjoy the sensations and usually that's all that's on my mind. If I've had a really good sexual experience recently, I may focus on remembering that, but making something up and fantasizing about it kills any desire to masterbate. I know it's not exactly what you are talking about, but I think it's the same type of thing. Dress up and role playing in a sexual context holds no appeal for me either (I do love my Steampunk outfits and dressing up for parties though!)
 
I understand this part too. My husband has always found it weird that I don't fantasize about anything when I'm masterbating. I enjoy the sensations and usually that's all that's on my mind. If I've had a really good sexual experience recently, I may focus on remembering that, but making something up and fantasizing about it kills any desire to masterbate. I know it's not exactly what you are talking about, but I think it's the same type of thing. Dress up and role playing in a sexual context holds no appeal for me either (I do love my Steampunk outfits and dressing up for parties though!)

Oh, certainly. Dressing up for parties, to show off (I have no shame on this score) or do photos...that I enjoy.

I do fantasize in my "me time" but it's scenarios, stuff that pushes some of my comfort boundaries and actually this is stuff I used to say I would NEVER want to try, but since getting into better relationships and a safe community, now I might. But in my fantasy mind, the players in the act are shells and I can "experience" something from any point of view in my mind.

I can keenly imagine what something might feel like. And since as far back as I can remember, pretty much every one of my fantasies were rooted in power and control. Feeling helpless and being powerless, used by another (or others)...or being the controlling, powerful, Dominant party, I can switch back and forth in my mind and "feel" it from both roles.

I think that's why I like my imagination over porn...I have control over what is playing, and I can bring it to life well enough in my brain to not just "see" it but to "feel" it. The physical sensations I'm actually experiencing usually aren't as stimulating as what's going on in my brain.
 
Must say though that there are a few fantasies that I won't be able to do if I go exclusive with Zen, I don't think...setting aside my wish to be loving and good and considerate to the partners I've had in my life...and an occasional twinge of attraction for another person or two out there in the world...the question of whether I could find a way to do these things like a "bucket list" of sexual tourism makes me wonder/hesitate just a little. Not really. But a little.
I don't quite understand the concern here.
Does Zen want you to be exclusive with him?
To the point that you give up your attractions for other people and your sexual 'bucket list';) ?
Or is exclusivity the only way you can see yourself being his submissive?
 
I don't quite understand the concern here.
Does Zen want you to be exclusive with him?
To the point that you give up your attractions for other people and your sexual 'bucket list';) ?
Or is exclusivity the only way you can see yourself being his submissive?

He's got that Pisces thing going on, of being self-sacrificing to a fault. He hasn't asked for, let alone demanded, anything. Not exclusivity, not any sacrifices on my part. He says that sometimes when he sees me having fun with others, he's got a deep down instinctual reaction to it, but he is able to sort of mentally shout it down. Because he came into this knowing that I am poly, knowing that I have other partners, and with the expectation that he was but one of them. Which in fact I think he feels pretty honored to have that much of me. He tends to respect my needs. A lot.

Yet he hesitates in the notion of being my Dom and part of this, I believe, is the fact that he shares my affections with others. I feel that exploring the deeper layers of power exchange, insofar as we'd go (because the whole 24/7 slave thing will NEVER work for me, with the life I lead)...I feel that there are depths we'd only reach if I am his, and part of me DOES want that. And I am really in love with this man. So my desire to please him, no matter what he is actually asking for, is strong.

I haven't made any big commitments yet, but we've talked a little about certain possibilities. I am retaining a sort of waiting period before things get "too serious" with any partner, I knew when I moved out of Old Wolf's house that I wanted to be careful about this, and I felt that signing a lease on my own little apartment would essentially create space for one year, where I'm not really a candidate for escalation, even if I feel urges to do so. It's a check on any impulses that might lead to life decisions. A forced waiting period of sorts.

For now, I've simply kept him apprised of where I'm at. I am not quite "done" where each of my relationships in the quad is at, although it feels it's heading that way. I sometimes consider some level of play with Dom Sabre, the gentleman from Denver, but I would at this point keep that casual. He is coming down here to the Springs a bit more often now. So I'm not ruling him out completely, but it might be limited to scening at parties, not sex.

I just don't really know how to make those "bucket list" fantasies happen now. The men I've got in my life, none are into having another D in play in their sexual space, and the scene I wanted to do...the best parties for that have passed, and now that what happened, happened, and how I feel about it...I just don't know anymore. I would do it if Zen facilitated it, but I don't know if he'd be comfortable or bothered by my idea. I had previously wanted Fire and Hefe to run that scene...now maybe not.

And I find myself a bit uncomfortable contemplating doing anything that might give Zen jealous feelings, even though he would not try to stop me and he'd do his best to bury them. Self sacrificing, as I said. To a fault. But I feel protective of him.

Thing is, I know I can do mono. I did it for half my life. And mostly I was really "good at it" even if I wasn't necessarily happy. I didn't really know what I was missing out on, then, but it's beside the point. As I've said, I tried to honor my commitment to Old Wolf out of a sense of duty and familial love and "what was right." It would be very different, I think, to make and honor a commitment like that because I knowingly chose it and wanted it. Zen and I are not ~quite~ there today...but it is a possibility.
 
I went to Old Wolf's house last night for a while. I was down in the area...ok so this is stupid/funny. I got a thing in the mail, that seemed to be saying I'd won $5,000. It was a promo for a car dealership event thing, and I knew it was nonsense, but I didn't have plans anyways. So I drove down there, every intention to show up and refuse to hear sales pitches but ask if I'd won anything.

I won a "free vacation" (lodging only of course)...which is probably a bit of useless nonsense, but I'll read the thing they gave me. No money. Hey, if I can get 2 free nights in some nice cabin up in the mountains, I might find a way to make use of that, so long as I don't have to listen to any timeshare spiels.

So I was down in the neighborhood and I got a text from Old Wolf that he was all mopey and miserable about something, and I was like "Oh for fucks sakes" and I called and said, "Hey, I'm in the area, mind if I just stop by?" And I did, and sat with him for a couple of hours in the garage listening to his plans (which I've heard before several times) and sharing bits of anecdotal storytelling from my world. I was there when Ninja got home from taking care of some school stuff, today is his first day and I was able to check in with him about his impending start to his senior year.

He (Wolf) believes he will find some peace up in Oregon, says he means to dedicate himself to Song as her "Queen's Guard" and be her chaste servant and protector. Hm. Well, who am I? Godspeed, ya crazy bastard. We talked a bit about how distasteful he finds the whole fetish community and the concepts thereof, and I took the liberty of saying that I felt that was because he is not at peace with his own nature. I calmly told him that I felt he had a very hard time reconciling his need to be a big, bad alpha man, with the fact that deep down he is actually a submissive. He started to bark about not wanting to be whipped and I told him that had nothing to do with anything. That he's talking about going up and dedicating his life to Song, and before that, he "couldn't live" without the purpose of serving me, and that he is the sort of person who needs to fix on someone he sees as better and greater than himself, and live in their service, and damned if that is not a form of submission no matter what he wants to call it, so there. He was grumpy about it but there wasn't much he could say to put together a good argument against that, since it is abundantly true.

And speaking of stuff. I came across a post on Fetlife from a friend of mine, in the community, about how he's frustrated that he hasn't had much success lately in separating BDSM from sex. He wants to practice his flogging and rope skills, but it usually just ends up in sex with him and his partner, and he wanted advice on how to separate the two things and develop his abilities. Others suggested going to Voodoo (which he has, so that's nothing new for him) or maybe "getting it out of his system" before a scene. I suggested that he maybe negotiate a scene at a public party with a friend (hello?) with whom he does NOT have consent to sex, knowing full well what exactly is on the menu and what's not. I'm not averse in the slightest to service bottoming for a friend to help him develop his skills and I know that we've got some excellent tops in the scene who can help advise him. And I can give him good tips for negotiation, and feedback on the scene itself. So hopefully that will pan out. I like this friend, he came into the scene at the same time that I did. He's good people. I'd consider this sort of thing a nice kind of community service, and I'd like to be able to do it for promising up-and-coming top types, so long as it's at public parties where it's safe.

Other than that...I played some Diablo last night, as creeping around clearing dungeons makes me very happy, and I'm having to work with my stupid cat about not attacking people. He gets his ferocious on, and wants to jump at my legs all the time. While it's cute and he's not really hurting me, he is a big cat and I don't want to let him do this...so I'm holding out a "STOP" hand and saying in a firm voice, "NO" when he does it. And then throwing a toy for him. It's been working well. He's pulled his attacks and waited for the better target more now. It helps to be aware of him, and when he's getting wound up, so I can redirect him before he gets out of control.

He's four years old now, and I sometimes wonder when I can expect him to settle down. He's got a lot of energy, and he's 16 pounds of muscle and fluff to manage in a small apartment.
 
I keep thinking about how I am to Zen, as well as things I say to him or express here, and whether I come on too strong, if I'm too much.

(I know, it's me stuff. It doesn't come from him.)

To be perfectly clear after what I wrote about possible escalations or exclusivity with him, it's not that I am demanding or expecting anything. I'm not even 100% saying "This is what I want." Let alone need. It's only that Spork-in-love imagines all sorts of possible outcomes and possibilities. I think I would be more willing to consider things that, like a matter of months ago, would have been utter impossibilities in my mind.

But in fact, just what...four months ago maybe? Five?...I would have thought it was impossible for me to love this strongly and be loved back. I thought I was going to forever have these very serious imbalances in who loves whom, in any relationship I endeavored to create. That it was my lot, what I deserved somehow, that if I was deeply in love, my lover did not return it and would surely, upon learning how I felt, put an end to things, and it would hurt, it always hurts...or that they would be in love and I would decide it was good enough and roll with it, or that neither of us would be feeling big feels, and if I were lucky it could be quite good, but not...this. I didn't dare hope to ever have this.

For me, this is an entirely new thing under the sun. For him, too.

And I am a dreamer of grandiose dreams, always. That's just how I am. I don't call them "hopes"...just ideas that float through my mind. Fantasies, daydreams. Limitless things that don't concern themselves with reality. Like he and I in a home, modest but lovely, with a basement full of dungeon furniture (cool stuff that I built) and decorated with his amazing collection of art. A fantasy world of domestic collaborations. Like taking him to see the places I've been that are wonderful, that I know he would love. Stuff like that. And they say that Pisces (Zen) is "the dreamer." Ha! Hm. Hmmm.. I have not asked him the question. I like to ask people, if they could magically have everything they desire, the perfect life of their dreams, what it would look like. I have learned very interesting things about people that way. Wonder if I should ask. Wonder what he might say.

As to reality though, I am pretty fluid. I am...being here, now. Enjoying this, today. And content to let the future unfold as it will. I know that anything can happen. Our paths might part, or worse. Today is quite glorious enough to be worth that risk, and I will take the gift we've been given, gladly. So I am certainly not demanding or expecting more.
 
It's so great that you love and are being loved Spork :)
I'm not even 100% saying "This is what I want." Let alone need. It's only that Spork-in-love imagines all sorts of possible outcomes and possibilities. I think I would be more willing to consider things that, like a matter of months ago, would have been utter impossibilities in my mind.
Yes, please be a little cautious. You've build your knowledge and skills about open relationships last year, you seemed to really enjoy the journey. Don't go exclusive because you imagine this is the right thing for him without even being asked to do so - it might be false consideration.
 
Spork, I think you're doing great having come from such a messed up marriage. In just a short period of time, you've found a quad that offered some things you wanted. Whether that configuration is sustainable is questionable, not just for you, but for anyone. So many moving parts.

You've found a "family" at your kink club, and you've experienced trying out all kinds of fun stuff, and enjoy the companionship of your casual friends.

And you've found a cool guy to Dom you, and you both share loving feelings. I'd just caution you to remember you're deep in NRE, and fantasies of being owned and mono with him are nice to contemplate, but maybe not wise after just this short time.

If anything, a safer idea would be to remain poly, but closed temporarily. It's very common when deep in NRE to only have eyes for your new lover. This feeling can fade if you're truly poly. Doesn't mean you then love him less! It means you're friendly with a lot of love to give. However, your time is limited, so you're trying to use it wisely.

miss pixi has been formally collared by 2 Masters in the past, but she didn't cohabitate formally. She kept her own living space (with roommates) and kept the understanding that she was poly at heart and free to date whoever.

Currently her Master has not collared her formally, but they do a strict D/s protocol on their dates. Any D type she talks to is informed she lives with me and that is not going to change. She still gets a lot our of their power exchange, things she doesn't get in our relationship.

You might want to look at why you have this drive to be owned and collared after just a few months with him, and still not out of the murk of divorce with Wolf, who abused you. I feel you still have PTSD from that. I know you're just speculating here, so maybe your seeming need for being owned is more a wondering than a real need to be someone's property so soon after cutting yourself loose from a jerk, and becoming single.
 
Lots of bits to think and talk about!

You are both right, and I assure you that I am not doing anything rash.

As I said, part of having the lease and the apartment helps me keep the brakes on life decisions, and that I think is a GOOD thing. I do need to make sure I'm honoring my own truths. It's just that I'm still working out what they are. Again, possibilities are not plans. Not ready for plans yet.

NRE: This, as some probably know, is a touchy subject for me. People with different life experiences tell me that this feeling fades, and maybe it evolves into something that you can build a long relationship on...and maybe you come out of it and things change. So people say. But that when you feel intense and consumed by your love like this, it is definitely not something you should expect to last, and not something you should make life plans based on. All well and good. Now imagine, if every single time in your life you'd ever felt this, your partner cut off the relationship in a matter of months, or less. You got dropped while still blazing with these feelings, you felt intense pain and grief, and your memory of that person was FOREVER colored by both the NRE feelings and the loss. That has been my experience.

On the flipside, more men have felt this way towards me, than I have for them. Old Wolf had feelings for me that stayed intense, but in his own unhealthy and desperate way, for most of our 18 years. Seriously, it was like our whole relationship was one of unrequited passion on his part, and cool coping on mine. In the beginning I was warmed and flattered that someone loved me so much. It felt...more grown-up than any relationship I'd done before. He was about a decade older than me, I was ready to become a woman, and he was a man. I didn't expect that we'd have kids or go this far, but I was ready for "something serious"...whatever that meant at the time. And he's serious alright. Serious as a heart attack and about as destructive.

I'm still making it up as I go. Maybe all of us are. Maybe there are no rules, not really. So maybe I just can't know what to expect, whether or when the "NRE" will "fade"...I don't know. Also, Zen isn't exactly my new lover...we've been playing for nearly a year and lovers since last November.

I do believe that any commitments I ever were to make (with anyone) would be negotiated out and talked out in great detail. Whether I am "really poly" or not doesn't matter. Let's look at possible commitments and what they mean TO ME.

Collaring: I know some in the community who see a collar like the BDSM version of a wedding ring. And I know some who are not deep in the protocol, who have been collared in relatively light relationships. They sometimes take it seriously enough at the time, but you knew there was not a lifetime commitment there, that collar can come off as easily as it went on. Heck, I know some folks who get into headspace for play with the putting on of a collar that is ONLY worn during play, and removed afterwards, the sub set loose into the world and not in the role anymore. The opposite is the woman I know whose Master died, and she still considers herself his slave and tends to his resting place frequently. There are many layers of dedication in the community and we don't look down on anyone for how they choose to define what they do. It's the beauty, really, of the whole thing. As long as informed consent is present, there IS no "one twue way" to do anything.

I am no slave, and I wouldn't want to even try to be. I know this, Zen knows this, and he isn't interested in directing the life of another person. It's hard to explain. He didn't really set out, I think, to be a "Dom." He never identified as that on fet. He considers himself a "Top". I don't think that either of us is invested in some of the elements that we see in other power exchange relationships, there will always be a lot of areas where we see one another as equals, and there are some areas where I think he defers to me. And some in which he is in service to my needs. But all of this feels really...good, right, healthy, happy. Fulfilling, to me.

So what is this thing where I love to hear him say to me that I am "his" anything, where I love the idea of belonging-to, love to sit at his feet at parties, and where I think it would be neat to wear his collar? I think really part of it is the same joy I get from wearing his marks on my body. It's a physical manifestation of the joy I feel in this. It doesn't change much or obligate either of us to do anything different. But it WOULD keep a lot of the rando's of the fetish community from thinking that I'm available, too.

On to that...what am I giving up if I go mono with Zen?

With the most recent turns of events with the quad, I think that is simmering down and phasing out. It wasn't so much the structure or number of partners that made it unsustainable...it was a few basic incompatibilities that were big enough to be major problems, and it was the fact that for me, they're just too much "a world apart." With everything on my plate, I think the only relationship(s) I can sustain right now are one(s) where the partner can integrate well with my life in multiple areas. Not one(s) where I feel they compete with other important things and I have to make hard choices, or am too tempted to neglect my son mainly. I would like to keep the friendships, and that isn't an issue where Zen is concerned. As for the sex, it was certainly fun, but some of what I'd hoped for (from the basic fact of having a GROUP to play with) never really materialized and didn't much look like it was ever going to, and if we're talking about one-on-one lovers, Zen fulfills all of my sex needs very well.

So on to other possibilities in my world... look at my signature and see my "flirts" and add just one, the Worm King, to that list. Those are people I'd hesitate and say...mmmmm....maybe, if they propositioned me today.

The stuff with the Worm King has faded but still flickers up a bit occasionally. The last couple of days I've missed him a bit. But I went from knowing that if he asked, I would break speed limits to get to his place for a few hours of sex, to knowing it was a bad idea but I'd still struggle to say no, to declaring myself no longer available to him openly on Facebook and that I am "over it"...with lots of anger and weird emotions in between...and now, I feel that I still have days here and there, if he caught me at just the right time, I'd go if he asked. But I will never reach out to him. And the odds, since I haven't seen him in 11 months, are slim. He is definitely strange enough to develop a sudden and "out of nowhere" desire to see me over a year since I saw him last, but if he didn't catch me on a particularly weak day, he'd get a "no."

Regarding Supernova... There are big reasons he cannot be a "partner." I could do probably something casual with him, but it's that whole question of whether I even want yet another name on the list of meaningless sex in my history. More importantly, he's involved in some undercurrents and conflicts in the community, and I want to be careful that I don't muddy any personal boundaries past the point of no return. But I'll give him that he is very sexy, has beautiful eyes, and a reputation for having enormous endowment that frankly makes me slightly curious...in a "like, can I just see it?" kind of way. Think I wanna keep that a "flirty friend" thing, though.

Big Daddy...I shouldn't have even gone as far as I did with him, and I'm glad I went no further. There are ethical issues there. I wouldn't want any more with him unless he resolved those anyways, and he is unlikely to.

Which leaves Dom Sabre, who tempts me more than most. I wanted him BAD last year, and he faded out and shut me down. That was one that, after the Worm King, really hurt my self esteem, even though he didn't mean to...he was just "going through some stuff." Now he's back around, flirting it up with me. But...he lives in Denver. About an hour away. So I don't know. Also, what I'd hoped I might find in a relationship with him...is what I now feel for Zen. So as tempting and hot as he is, my inner voice says, "probably not a good idea."

So. Every one of the other partner choices in my life, is either problematic, unlikely, dubious, some combination thereof. And again I ask...what am I giving up, if I go exclusive with Zen, exactly, when what I now have with him is what I longed for...? A few novel and interesting sex experiences, maybe? I can say for certain that if I approached him and told him that I was considering a new partner and he seemed hurt or upset, I am FAR more invested in not hurting Zen, than I am in playing with someone new. I know that sort of flies in the face of much of what we do as polyfolk, pursuing new relationships and working through jealousy instead of trying to avoid triggering it in our partners...letting his feelings be his and all that jazz. Maybe I am not "real poly" or maybe it will be a thing I don't want to do for a while. *shrug* Right now part of my love of Zen is a feeling of protectiveness, and it doesn't feel unhealthy. And I'm not stressed about losing my poly cred by being mono for a while, or even for good. Right now I'm open to ALL the possibilities. I'm waiting for the universe to give some feedback on what direction my life ought to go.

About the only thing that I consider to be 100% off the table for the future of Zen and Spork, and we agree on this, is reproduction. I'm done doing that, and he doesn't want to do that, and we're just not doing that. Other than that, I'm just happy today and open to tomorrow.
 
NRE: This, as some probably know, is a touchy subject for me. People with different life experiences tell me that this feeling fades, and maybe it evolves into something that you can build a long relationship on...and maybe you come out of it and things change. So people say. But that when you feel intense and consumed by your love like this, it is definitely not something you should expect to last, and not something you should make life plans based on. All well and good.
...

I'm still making it up as I go. Maybe all of us are. Maybe there are no rules, not really. So maybe I just can't know what to expect, whether or when the "NRE" will "fade"...I don't know. Also, Zen isn't exactly my new lover...we've been playing for nearly a year and lovers since last November.

I am one of those people who gets NRE super-super-super intensely, and with Rider it was more intense than anything I'd ever felt before in my entire life. And it lasted a loooooong time, to the point where I kept wondering if "official NRE" was over and it was just going to feel that way forever. But it didn't.

It was kind of like...an actual drug, in a sense. (I am specifically thinking about psychedelics.) It comes on strong, and then it fades a little and you think it's over, but then it comes roaring back, but then it fades a little again, and then comes back again, and with each "roaring back" part of the wave, it crests at a slightly lower point till it's more like "dribbling back."

Just recently, it barely dribbles back at all. Occasionally, I'll get a few little drops of it, like when he plays a song he put on a playlist when we first started dating, but for the most part, after eight months of crushing hard leading to 2.5 years of actually being together (so over three years, in total), the NRE is finally basically gone. Recently.

The cool thing is that what it's been replaced by is totally awesome. And it's nothing I've ever really gotten to experience before, either. Usually my own pattern is that I'm in shitty relationships and it isn't until the NRE wears off that I realize they are shitty and leave, so, historically for me, end of NRE = end of relationship. But in this case, my relationship with Rider is still GREAT. We're still amazing partners, best friends, have great sex, and I can't imagine not wanting him in my life. My love for him has only deepened, even as the NRE has waned. It's a first for me!

What has waned with the waning NRE, though, is the desire to totally consume him and be consumed by him to where I felt happy being basically mostly mono with him and felt terrible and stressed out at the thought of missing out on time he was spending with other people that we could have been having together. In NRE, every drop of time counted and I wanted it all. Now that I am past the NRE, I know he'll always be there, and as long as we don't spend too little time together, well, I don't need every last drop. Besides, time he spends elsewhere will free me up for more dates with other people myself. :rolleyes:

YMMV, but I just wanted to point out that—for me, anyway—"playing for nearly a year and lovers since last November" is firmly still within the realm of holyshitNRE-land. And the entire time I lived in that land, even while trying to be cognizant that I'd someday travel out of it, it was very hard to actually imagine ever feeling any way other than how I felt at the time.
 
What I find interesting is this...

The fact that it didn't blaze up all crazy-like right away, but rather 7 months in. That is another new thing for me.

During that time, the more I discovered about him, the more I wanted to discover...until BOOM! there we were sometime in late May and suddenly I was just all about him. I still have no idea what changed it. I can't find an event or occasion in my memory that was very different from what we'd been doing.

I don't feel like I need all of his time or attention, but I sure soak up everything about him when we are together. And I won't lie, the high priority he has made me in his life and time probably has a lot to do with how bonded I eventually became. But there is more to it than the time and effort he has put into me and this. There's a lot about the man he is...because he isn't like anyone I've ever known. I love him not just for what he does but for who he IS.

I jokingly talk about his TED talks and seminars and self help books but you know, I've never known anyone to quest so deeply for understanding and good ideas about life. He was so uncertain about how I'd react to his home, he's a collector of many things...the books, oh my god the BOOKS. So at one point I'd been contemplating some odd bits and bobs, memories from my childhood and I remembered my Mom had a couple of books in this collectible series (I think they were Time Life Books) and they were lovely cloth bound with cool artwork in them. One I remember loving as a kid was about witches and wizards or something. Such a weird obscure thing, and I'd never seen them anywhere since I was like 10 years old or something. ZEN HAS THE SET. I about lost my freaking mind when I saw that. His home is nearly magical to me, though I think he could have a better structure to house all of his fascinating things, I understand why he's stayed with what he has. And in fact I respect him a lot for some of his careful and risk averse behavior, at least being cautious and a planner. Anyways, I think he saw himself as nerdy and boring and I don't know if he expected a woman to ever LOVE HIM for it but...

Geeks are cool now, Zen. Congrats, you've made it, you ARE one of the cool kids. You just didn't know it!

Many men put on a big show of how great they are, selling themselves to women, to the world...but underneath it all, they are rather ordinary, even boring. Zen is quietly, almost secretly AMAZING without making a big show of it. So when I look at my transition from "Well, this is pretty interesting, think I'll go with it a while and see where it leads. Love ya!" to "OMG HAVE YOU SEEN THE SHAPE OF YOUR EARS? THEY'RE BRILLIANT!" (who gets jazzed about the shape of someone's ears? the fuck is wrong with me?) I look at this, and I think well...ok, I'm not going to un-learn all of the things I love about him. I doubt that in mellowing out, my level of love will go back further than the "pretty darn good" place it was before. Probably it will be someplace in between. And that seems like it would be pretty damn lovely.

So yes, it's NRE, or limerance, or whatever the heck you want to call it, but I'm enjoying it. And even before it flared up like this, I was enjoying him anyhow. I think I'll continue to, even if I stop obsessing about every little detail of him.

As for polyamory, well...it has been an important part of my growth and learning. I wouldn't say it was wrong for me in and of itself. But I also wouldn't say that it's a requirement for my happiness necessarily. What I DO need, and I KNOW I need, fits with relationship anarchy models that recognize other relationships that aren't sexual. I have got BIG social needs. I need a community. I need people. A few close and loving friendships, and loads of lighter ones. I may not need sexual relationships with more than one, but having lots of friendship in my life lets me embrace the "loving many" part of myself in other ways. And I think that Zen is alright with this, even if it might not be something he's quite...used to. At some point, we'll probably have to negotiate some boundaries and compromises so that he feels safe and comfortable in his introversion and any needs for privacy that he has, and I feel fulfilled in my great big families and living out loud tendencies.
 
"OMG HAVE YOU SEEN THE SHAPE OF YOUR EARS? THEY'RE BRILLIANT!" (who gets jazzed about the shape of someone's ears? the fuck is wrong with me?)

I am still completely obsessed with Rider's mouth, so I know what you mean. Specifically, the shape of his lips and the itty-bitty gap he has only at the bottom of his two top front teeth. OBSESSED to the point where I will focus on it while we're having sex. It's a running joke that I have a "mouf fetish." LOL
 
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