Religion, politics, sex .. and other taboo subjects

Trump gave his first post-election interview to 60 Minutes last night. The transcript and video extras are on the website.

President-elect Trump speaks to a divided country on 60 Minutes
"What can we expect from a Trump presidency? 60 Minutes' Lesley Stahl finds some of his campaign issues were not meant to be taken literally, but as opening bids for negotiation. The following script is from “The 45th President,” which aired on Nov. 13, 2016. "
 
The reason I used to be more conservative...

When I was 18-20 or so, we were poor. Dirt poor. My ex, during the first 5 years of our relationship, could not hold a steady job and had a major medical emergency requiring three life saving surgeries. I had two babies during that time, and was young and uneducated and trying to get out of retail/foodservice and my foot in the door of professional corporate America. We were struggling.

I tried to get help, when we needed it. A couple of times, and on a short term basis, was my intent. In Cincinnati, the private run (often church run) charities provided better help to me than did the public welfare system. My experiences taught me that if you go to the government offices for help, you will see a lot of black women draped in gold jewelry with manicured nails and cell phones (this was, remember, before everyone had a cell phone, 1997-2002 or so.) And you will wait forever, have to spend all day, be told you're missing this or that piece of paperwork, have to go and come back, and they'll do everything they can to deny you, especially if you have a man and woman in the house trying to raise kids. If you don't meet criteria, you get nothing. If you do meet criteria, you get everything, even (in one later instance I experienced) more than you are asking for, want, or need sometimes.

Real help was with the private food banks and organizations who took into account your actual situation.

We became homeless when my first son was 4 months old, and got on a greyhound with the last of our money and what we could carry, and went to Des Moines, Iowa for a new start. Things slowly began to get better.

We were a "bootstraps" family. We came from nothing, we worked our asses off for everything. And when we were in need, the government turned their backs on us, and it sure looked to me like the minority women draped in gold jewelry with their fancy manicured fingernails were getting their benefits a lot more easily than I could.

And at that time in our low income bracket, I remained not married to him for the first 10 years of our relationship, because the earned income credit and tax code favored me being a "single mom." We lost thousands of dollars every year when we actually got married, but we did it because he was going into the military and the benefits outweighed that in the bigger picture. Fact is, the tax benefits of filing married are nonexistent under certain circumstances. It sure looked to me like the government was incentivizing single parenthood, when I was determined and struggling to have a nuclear family, to give my kids a life with a mother and a father and at least a very convincing facade of harmony and love.

It really looked to me like the hopes and promises of the Liberal ideology were a big fat lie. And like I was being punished for trying to keep my family together, work, and fight our way out of poverty. Seemed like social progress would come from the people, the old racists and bigots and sexists would die off...so what the old white guys in office thought maybe didn't matter about social issues, so long as the people led the way in tolerance and kindness. But when it came to economic policy, I wanted to keep what I earned. After all...the tax I would have to pay sure wouldn't go to help me out.

I could only count on myself. No one else.

At that time I was not really aware of libertarianism, though I was fairly libertarian in my thinking. But since what was presented as viable options for consideration in elections was always a Republican versus a Democrat, and clearly the liberals were just lying and suckering everyone so they could take our money, I identified for a while as a Republican.

Today I call myself a "liberal-tarian." I think that a lot of the ideas of the left are great, but I still have very serious trust issues.

Also, between my days of conservativeness, and now, I have watched supposedly Republican presidents GROW the Federal government and in other ways also betray their ideologies enough to know that I cannot trust any of them, either. But I've also seen enough abuses by Big Business, that I don't trust a supposed "outsider" if he's someone like trump.

I'm just fairly suspicious and cynical of all of 'em, if you want to know the truth. But I felt good about Bernie on a deeply instinctual level. I think he could have done a lot of good as our President. I wish he'd been elected.

So I know why I was more conservative in the past, but I just feel things are different now. I mean, I feel that there was a chance, a danger and a risk, that Trump/Pence would do what they could to destroy the lives and civil rights of so many people. And I wonder "how could anyone not know about this risk?" and while I understand that most trump voters had other reasons and motivations, I cannot help but feel that even knowing the risks, they decided it was WORTH IT...

I'm struggling right now. I'm a white woman, newly divorced, and I took on 75% of the unsecured marital debt, and will likely have to declare bankruptcy. I am getting no support and no alimony. I rolled over and took it one last time, because I would rather that, than be enemies with a man who presents a danger to me. I make good money, but I get to keep very little of it. I barely make it from one paycheck to the next.

Losing access to abortion wouldn't affect me, my tubes are tied. If I can convince myself that there are not more people willing to commit assault upon me in the world today than there were a month ago, then I could say I have little to lose with a trump presidency. I could have been one of his supporters, if we're doing those kinds of mental gymnastics.

Except that I've got this damned moral compass in my gut, or something...even trying to think about it it's like I'm running into an invisible wall. He is and was always too repugnant to even consider. Maybe because having been married to an abusive narcissist I know what one looks, sounds, and smells like. I don't know. So while I totally understand how someone could be a Republican....I still don't understand how someone could stomach voting for Trump. Unless they have such a lack of empathy. In which case trying to get them to see your point of view, trying to use compassion and understanding to connect in kind and fair ways, is only likely to get you a boot in the teeth.
 
... as well as having the opportunity to control the SCOTUS for the next 25 years.

I'm glad you mentioned SCOTUS. As most folks here probably know, on March 16th of this year, Obama nominated Merrick Garland, the Chief Judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, to fill the Supreme Court seat vacated by the death of Antonin Scalia in February.

The Republican led Senate refused to hold hearings on this nomination since the middle of march. It is now the middle of November. There has been eight months of stalling by the US Senate, which has refused to do its job on this during Obama's presidency.

We're well into the first week after trump's unpopular election. [I'm deliberately not capitalizing his name in symbolic protest.] And protests have roiled the streets since this election, each day or night. Mass protests -- often involving many hundreds or thousands of people.

The protests are not subsiding.

I think we should try to seed the idea to the protesters that they do more than merely complain about the election results. I think we should ask the protesters to demand that the Senate do it's job and hold hearings on Obama's SCOTUS nominee. [We had one little protest in my little city, or I'd say "we" about the protesters. I'm not really an insider to this.]

We know there are much larger protests coming, especially in Washington DC on inauguration day (January 20th). But what the protesters should demand is that the Senate begin holding hearings on Obama's nominee immediately -- as inauguration day is too late. This means we need massive protests in all major American cities as soon as possible, all with a single (at least initially) purpose and demand: "Hey Senate! Do your job!"

Unfortunately, this is very, very unlikely to happen, because people are now so disheartened and skeptical of anything good happening ... that they'd rather just continue expressing anger and rage than to try and actually do some good. (I know, 'cause I sent a letter to many of my friends ... asking if they'd like to help organize a local protest to "seed" this idea into the world. Only one agreed that we should give it a try. One replied, saying "too little. too late (essentially "we can't"). The others didn't respond at all.

The only way this sort of thing can happen -- probably -- would be if someone with "star power" could be the voice of the idea. That, or someone with connections in the protest world....

Seems a shame all of these protests are happening and no one is calling for such an obvious, basic demand.
 
The reason I used to be more conservative...
I still don't understand how someone could stomach voting for Trump. Unless they have such a lack of empathy. In which case trying to get them to see your point of view, trying to use compassion and understanding to connect in kind and fair ways, is only likely to get you a boot in the teeth.

The empathy angle is crucial here. Many people have serious deficiencies in their tendency / capacity to be empathetic. Sociopaths and narcissists, especially.

I'd say there are a lot of narcissists and sociopaths holding power in corporations and government in general. They are disproportionately represented in such places. The often feign empathy, but it's not sincere. (Not all of 'em of course!)
 
More to the point (sorry about the ramble) is that for instance I saw some video where a British celebrity was shouting into the camera about how effed-up it all is that we let this happen, and how if we want to make a difference we need to debate and discourse and stand up and change their minds. Engage, confront, conversate, until they GET IT!!

Oh, them's great fightin' words. Bra-vo.

Yet I spew VOLUMES in debate and discourse on the internet (you folks see my capacity for verbiage, I hope, and get my point)...and how many minds have I ever changed? I'm very socially connected and a fairly popular and likable person in my circles, but when I come up against someone with a different view, I can argue until I am blue in the face, and they will only dig in their heels. If I win on logic, they resort to insults, if I cite sources, they attack my sources and cite their own. Back and forth we go until one of us says "why have I wasted my time on you?" and quits. Is that a "win?" According to the rules of the internet I guess it is. You win when your opponent gets tired of arguing, unfriends and blocks you? Or do you have to drive them to suicide?

I have found it almost impossible to change a person's mind, once they have made it up. I have nudged opinion that was not decided, but that was all.

So I would say again, I'm not sure how effective reaching out to the opposition will be here... BUT...I definitely think that the outcome of this should be a rallying cry to never take an election or your right to vote for granted under any circumstances.

I have a few objectives right now. The first is to be compassionate, present, and stand in solidarity and defense of any victims of bullying that I see. To stand against the principles I find repugnant and do what I can so that the marginalized and the vulnerable are not alone. I am doing the safety pin thing, and I will be looking into some volunteer opportunities.

Another is to do more to encourage people to show up and vote in every election.

Today I am organizing with the intent to do good in the world. But if it turns out that our rights truly come under attack, if we find one day that we've indeed elected Hitler, and resistance is needful...well I suppose that a positive civic organization might be able to switch gears if it comes to that.

But ultimately I can do a lot more good from a place of serene and reasoned calm, than sitting there getting upset staring at a screen, engaging with people who only hope to upset me so as to "win" some silly game.
 
Another is to do more to encourage people to show up and vote in every election.

If we want more folks to vote we have to provide them with better candidates in the general election.

In my opinion, the ultimate fault lies as much with the Democratic Party and its DNC as anywhere else. The democrats totally f***ing blew it by not throwing its support behind the best candidate this year: Bernie Sanders. Bernie would have won against Trump, because a lot more folks would have voted for president.

Plenty of folks left of center could not be motivated enough to go to the polls. And some were at the polls but left the presidential vote blank -- because they don't like or trust Hillary.
 
Great news! Trumps ex wife Ivana who accused him of sexual assault now wants to be his ambassador in Czech Republic. (My country.)
...
Feeling disgusted.
...
Kind of renders her former accusations illegitimate, not to mention that it clearly shows how similar they really must be.
 
Great news! Trumps ex wife Ivana who accused him of sexual assault now wants to be his ambassador in Czech Republic. (My country.)
...
Feeling disgusted.
...
Kind of renders her former accusations illegitimate, not to mention that it clearly shows how similar they really must be.

I guess the up and coming, new political party in the USA will be the Narcissist Party. And they will sweep all future elections. :(

Oh, and they won't cal 'em elections anymore. They'll be called "reality tv shows".
 
Oh, and they won't cal 'em elections anymore. They'll be called "reality tv shows".
Yeah, it's just exactly that and that's why it's big news in our media.
Oh, did I mention that our president, known to be rather anti-USA, immediatelly declared enthusiastic support of Trump after he was elected?

But enough ranting about how Trumps presidency will destroy the diplomatic relations to all other nations ;):D

I do come to think it's nothing new and not that much of a big deal. Narcissists have been in politics all over history. Some people I value would choose Trump over Hilary. Some say Trump's not great, but Bush jr. was worse. All in all he's a self-serving yokel, admittedly potentially dangerous (or not that much), and he's neither the first nor the last one.

I also come to think that this dangerous polarization of society is actively supported by both parties. Just watch Trump and Obama (not) getting along before and after election.
Social and information bubbles are so deep. The trump supporter I talked to yeasterday said he's convinced Trump doesn't intend to do anything badly homophobic, that he's got openly gay people close to him. He also said he hasn't heared about any violence from the republicant, only from the liberal side. I don't know how bad Trumps homophobia is, but I certainly see people closer to Trumps target group got completelly different information and/or interpretation.

I blame everyone who actively supports polarizing and escalation of the pre-election "discussions", and not only in this one campaign, for the depth of depression and anxiety reported by members of this forum after anouncing the results. I blame both parties targeted campaigns. I blame Hillary supporters bagatelizing the shortcommings of her and Obama's politics and painting her almost saint. I blame every one-sided article in the media.
If all the discussion could have been in a more objective light, I am sure there would disappointment, but be far, far less fear and upset.

Just please, please don't kill each other over there in the US, ok?
 
.... trade policy -- especially vis-à-vis voters in "fly over country" -- the Midwest. Hartmann's interviewee was saying that folks in the Midwest are just sick and weary of being ignored by the Democratic Party on international trade policy. Pissed, really. Pissed enough even to vote for Trump, because he was the last man/woman standing who said he'd change our national policies to bring back some manufacturing jobs to the USA.

The Clinton campaign assumed that it had the support of working class rust belt voters (along with the Latino "firewall") when the mere recognition of these crumbling communities seemed to be enough to turn many of them to Trump. Driven by economics, not racism, the surprise defection of traditionally Blue labor unionists to the Republican side was a huge factor in Clinton's loss.

(I quoted you from the other thread, River.)
 
I've been registered as a Green for a long time. My state recently decided that we Greens are not a legitimate party in this state any more, so I'm no longer registered as a Green -- or as any party.

I have no -- zero, zip -- allegiance to either of the two "major" parties (Republicans, Democrats). I prefer Democrats, generally, to Republicans. But I also know Democrats are quick to sell out their constituents when a tug-o-war begins to happen between what the party says it values and ... shall we call it, "establishment power". So I do not respect that party -- nor any "mainstream" or "major" party in the USA. They are all snakes. They hiss like snakes and sound like snakes and smell like snakes. They must be the snakes they seem to be then.

Americans over all are disappointing. If I could leave this country for a
Shangri-La elsewhere, I would. But Shangri-Las are scarce, and boy you gotta be something special to be accepted. So I guess I'm stuck with the American schmucks.
 
The Clinton campaign assumed that it had the support of working class rust belt voters (along with the Latino "firewall") when the mere recognition of these crumbling communities seemed to be enough to turn many of them to Trump. Driven by economics, not racism, the surprise defection of traditionally Blue labor unionists to the Republican side was a huge factor in Clinton's loss.

(I quoted you from the other thread, River.)


Look, F.A., I clicked on your link above and it turned out to be this damn thing called "American Thinker". Well, I stopped in my tracks right there, because I can't any longer read anything published by American Thinker -- on account of everything I've ever read from them and their supporters was a trainload of turkey poop. No, really, very foul smelling. It gets into your nostrils and won't let up. So I'll take a pass on that.

But I like you, F.A. You have some sincerity and kindness and goodness about you.

Good luck with the turkey poop, though. I recommend small doses!
 
Here's one story illustrating a town in Maine that flopped from voting for Obama to voting for Trump, and why: http://www.pressherald.com/2016/11/13/why-one-town-turned-to-trump/

Sounds like the Dems have lost touch with a large base of people who used to traditionally vote for them... not just in Maine, but in the Midwest.

It's like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs... when people are worried about their own jobs and survival, other people's civil liberties aren't as high on their list of things to worry about. I'm privileged enough to be able to worry about this stuff; other people are just trying to live day to day and believe (whether right or wrong) that maybe this will help.

The lack of logic literally made my brain hurt. The rich guy known for not paying subcontactors cares about the working stiff :rolleyes:

But still, Trump got less votes overall than McCain or Romney did. Voter turnout was about the same as 2012. it is hard to make sense of.
 
I've been registered as a Green for a long time. My state recently decided that we Greens are not a legitimate party in this state any more, so I'm no longer registered as a Green -- or as any party.

I have no -- zero, zip -- allegiance to either of the two "major" parties (Republicans, Democrats). I prefer Democrats, generally, to Republicans. But I also know Democrats are quick to sell out their constituents when a tug-o-war begins to happen between what the party says it values and ... shall we call it, "establishment power". So I do not respect that party -- nor any "mainstream" or "major" party in the USA. They are all snakes. They hiss like snakes and sound like snakes and smell like snakes. They must be the snakes they seem to be then.

Americans over all are disappointing. If I could leave this country for a
Shangri-La elsewhere, I would. But Shangri-Las are scarce, and boy you gotta be something special to be accepted. So I guess I'm stuck with the American schmucks.

I'm gonna have to ask you to stop insulting sneks, plz.

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... I can't any longer read anything published by American Thinker
The article I linked to draws heavily on this USA Today article, so maybe you'll find that this source goes down easier. The point of both pieces is not to sway political opinion, but to analyze why Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin turned red. These rust belt states were considered strongholds in the "Blue Wall" and votes that the Clinton campaign took for granted. No matter which article you read, there's little doubt that Trump's recognition of these crumbling communities (and Clinton's relative disregard) had a major impact on the outcome of the election.



The lack of logic literally made my brain hurt. The rich guy known for not paying subcontactors cares about the working stiff :rolleyes:
That Trump was able to fashion himself as the champion of the working man speaks to how much personal dislike Hillary Clinton has always dredged up. I don't think that many voted against her because she is a woman, but multitudes did because she is and always has been widely perceived as "unlikeable." Whatever that elusive quality is, she has it.
 
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Spork -

I actually like real snakes -- and wolves too. Nothing against 'em.

It's the human sneks that worry me.
 
Spork -

I actually like real snakes -- and wolves too. Nothing against 'em.

It's the human sneks that worry me.

Glad to hear it. Figured we could use a smile around here, though.

I've gotten to a point of actually thanking people for posting stuff online that makes me smile or laugh, because reality is so grim and skeery and all.

I am now seeing articles that say trump's "tax plan" features cuts for the wealthiest (no shock) but will hit single parents the hardest, by eliminating head of household filing status and dependent exemptions.

But hey. This is how you "create jobs" right? Give rich people lots and lots of money, and they'll pass the wealth down to the rest of us, if and when they get around to it...right? Right??

See this also doesn't address the issue that a lot of poor folks aren't poor because they're unemployed. Some people work their asses off, and just can't make enough to get ahead when the cost of living goes up so much more and faster than the wages people make. I mean, you stay at a job for a long time, and get mostly raises for doing a good job, not necessarily promotions to climb the ladder, and you will be damn lucky if the increase in insurance premiums doesn't outweigh the increase in your pay each year. So for a lot of folks it's a losing game, even assuming you do well and your company is doing well and you get raises every year.

Because the extent to which everything costs more every year is exponentially more.

And I'm sorry but I'm not counting on the wealth "trickling down." Not when I've spent my life watching it get "vacuumed up."

So I figure... If I have to pay hundreds of dollars more in taxes every year as a single Mom, due to the man my ex voted for, maybe I will go against what I'd planned to do, and look into getting child support modified after all, sometime next year. The court assured me we had an open door on that. Unless trump means to outlaw court ordered child support, too. Hell, he might. I put nothing past the man at this point.
 
The whole world has got to act fast and furious in switching from fossil fuels to other energy sources and strategies, or there will be no future for most life on Earth.

And yet this county (USA) seems to have elected a president who doesn't even believe in anthropogenic (human caused) climate change.

The level of utter stark raving madness here is impossible to exaggerate.

We cannot allow this man to be our president. We cannot allow the Republicans to rule us. It's time to stand up and say NO!!!!!
 
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We cannot allow this man to be our president. We cannot allow the Republicans to rule us. It's time to stand up and say NO!!!!!

How do you propose to say no to his presidency? He's gonna be our president, that much is certain. Whether you feel that he represents you and whether you agree with his policies is another story, but this "Not my president" thing is a lost protest. He's gonna be our president. There's no such thing as saying no to it.
 
Trump taps climate-change skeptic to oversee EPA transition
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-environmental-legacy/?utm_term=.ec41b587a089


This guy, Myron Ebell, is an utterly laughable schmuck of the ultimate degree. Like trump, he can't seem to open his mouth without lies flying out. He's embarrassing to all intelligent life on Earth.

trump and all of his cronies have got to be kept out of the White House. They are far, far worse than merely incompetent. They are a danger to all of our children ... and to all decency, truth and humanity. And other species too.

http://www.desmogblog.com/myron-ebell

Ebell should be on trial for conspiracy to commit mass murder.
 
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