Opening marriage or breaking up?
- Thread starter polygone
- Start date
Resources for finding poly-friendly counselors:
Re (from polygone):
No problem polygone, thanks for keeping us updated on how things are going. It sounds like your wife is making some earnest changes and, as long as she doesn't revert back to her former ways, maybe staying with her could work out after all. As for how to work things out with your girlfriend, I'm not sure what to suggest. I guess you just figure things out as you go along.
- http://openingup.net/open-list/
- http://polyfriendly.org/index.php
- http://www.polychromatic.com/pfp/main.php
- http://www.lovemore.com/whydonate/polyamory-professionals/
- http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=333894#post333894
- http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=333927#post333927
- https://ncsfreedom.org/resources/kink-aware-professionals-directory/kap-directory-homepage.html
- http://therapists.psychologytoday.c...edium=link&utm_campaign=topnav_find_therapist
Re (from polygone):
No problem polygone, thanks for keeping us updated on how things are going. It sounds like your wife is making some earnest changes and, as long as she doesn't revert back to her former ways, maybe staying with her could work out after all. As for how to work things out with your girlfriend, I'm not sure what to suggest. I guess you just figure things out as you go along.
I may have phrased things poorly. I didn't mean move her in, I meant simply coming at our place occasionally, whether for a week-end, a night, or even for the evening.
I raised that because the alternative is me going out a lot in order to be with my gf.
I should point that part of the relief is that by now, I don't feel anymore the need to be in an intimate setting with my gf. I would be totally fine for my wife to join us when I am seeing my gf, be it for drinks, or for sex. My gf is bi and said that she'd rather see me alone, but she'd rather see me with my wife than not at all. We've tried that once and it went okay, but my wife thinks the gf is great but a bit degenerate. Same goes for all kinky events or stuff like that which, as you can imagine from my wife's description, is not something she's too much into...
Indeed, I am really flattered and impressed by her ability to place our relationship and our household above her pride. For me this is an amazing proof of maturity, and of love.
But I must admit she is doing some back and forth between that stance and then occasionally saying that I am being irresponsible, that I am losing all my moral values, so this makes me feel that there is a chance she revert to her old self. I guess we need more in-depth discussions to make sure expectations are known on both sides.
I think it's common for the hinge to want to 'unite' his two relationships in major or minor way, and common for the girls to want just the opposite - one on one time with your lover is just so much better. Not to mention having to deal with jealousy. While it may be nice to do some social thing together now and then, if they wouldn't form a friendship naturally, just keep them separated.
Ravenscroft
Banned
A therapist or counselor would be a GREAT idea, right now.
As others have said, avoiding those most likely to damn all nonmonogamy is smart, but why wait to find some sort of "perfect fit" when the situation is unlikely to get any better in the meantime?
And there's no guarantee that someone calling themselves "poly friendly" means that they won't bring their own prejudices into it anyway. I'm unaware of any sort of "pro-poly" training program, much less established standards or certification. In any case, it runs risk of being as much a bias as anti-poly, where a therapist is so hell-bent on encouraging polyamory as a cure-all that the possibility of healthy happy monogamy can't even be considered.
If you need help, seek help. Nothing stops you from continuing to shop for a better fit, & in the meantime you can maybe begin unsnarling all the stuff that's already accreted.
As others have said, avoiding those most likely to damn all nonmonogamy is smart, but why wait to find some sort of "perfect fit" when the situation is unlikely to get any better in the meantime?
And there's no guarantee that someone calling themselves "poly friendly" means that they won't bring their own prejudices into it anyway. I'm unaware of any sort of "pro-poly" training program, much less established standards or certification. In any case, it runs risk of being as much a bias as anti-poly, where a therapist is so hell-bent on encouraging polyamory as a cure-all that the possibility of healthy happy monogamy can't even be considered.
If you need help, seek help. Nothing stops you from continuing to shop for a better fit, & in the meantime you can maybe begin unsnarling all the stuff that's already accreted.
Am I understanding your wife is a Christian fundamentalist? Or was at least brought up that way, and still holds many of the values?
If that is the case, I am not surprised at her reaction to your affair. I am also not surprised that she dug into your phone to find your "well hidden" messages to your mistress. Passive aggressive action like that may be the only avenue for power she feels she has. It's sad!
And now, you're not in a well negotiated open or poly relationship. You had an affair. She has forgiven you, and seems willing to turn a blind eye to your continuing in your affair.
It sounds like she is a slave to the patriarchy. "Boys will be boys," "men will be men." Ie: the man is in charge, he can do what he wants. All men suck, but they hold the power, so all a wife can do is pretend the affair isn't happening, as long as she holds onto her man, their children, and her status as a "happily married wife" to outside observers.
It's sad. It's nothing new in our patriarchal society. And it's definitely not polyamory. It's still cheating.
Now you go on to say you attempted 3way sex with your (straight, mono, possibly devoutly Christian) wife and your independent bisexual gf. It didn't go that great? How can you be surprised? Some women lacking in power will go to great lengths, at the expense of their own dignity and self-worth, to hold onto their man. I feel sick at imagining the scenario.
It's like what I've heard about many swingers. The wife goes to the sex parties not because she desires having sex with other men, and not because she is bi, but so that her hubby can get some "strange," while she is expected to fuck fat unattractive undesirable men, and even have sex with other women, for the men's pleasure, while being straight!
I am sorry if I am reading you wrong, but that is what I am getting here.
If that is the case, I am not surprised at her reaction to your affair. I am also not surprised that she dug into your phone to find your "well hidden" messages to your mistress. Passive aggressive action like that may be the only avenue for power she feels she has. It's sad!
And now, you're not in a well negotiated open or poly relationship. You had an affair. She has forgiven you, and seems willing to turn a blind eye to your continuing in your affair.
It sounds like she is a slave to the patriarchy. "Boys will be boys," "men will be men." Ie: the man is in charge, he can do what he wants. All men suck, but they hold the power, so all a wife can do is pretend the affair isn't happening, as long as she holds onto her man, their children, and her status as a "happily married wife" to outside observers.
It's sad. It's nothing new in our patriarchal society. And it's definitely not polyamory. It's still cheating.
Now you go on to say you attempted 3way sex with your (straight, mono, possibly devoutly Christian) wife and your independent bisexual gf. It didn't go that great? How can you be surprised? Some women lacking in power will go to great lengths, at the expense of their own dignity and self-worth, to hold onto their man. I feel sick at imagining the scenario.
It's like what I've heard about many swingers. The wife goes to the sex parties not because she desires having sex with other men, and not because she is bi, but so that her hubby can get some "strange," while she is expected to fuck fat unattractive undesirable men, and even have sex with other women, for the men's pleasure, while being straight!
I am sorry if I am reading you wrong, but that is what I am getting here.
You have gone from (wonky marriage + multiple cheating affairs in secret) to (wonky marriage with 1 cheating affair in the open). Now you seem to be trying to take it to (Open Marriage practicing a "V" with previous cheating partner).
I think that is too many things all mashed up together without enough space or time in between to think and reflect. Where's the fire?
FWIW? I think you could continue with your plan to separate.
Give both you and wife time apart to think and reflect. She can figure out if she wants Open long term or not. Both can determine if you want to continue as...
I might guess wrong, but I grey out the first option.
Way back in your original post you list reasons for wanting to leave the marriage.
To me that sounds like you want freedom from this marriage. Why work so hard to keep it going? You don't seem to enjoy being in it.
What you view as "loving" I see as "coping." To me it sounds like she's just lumping it for now, so as not to change more things faster than she's ready.
She caught you cheating with GF from some phone texts. You confessed. (You don't mention if you came clean about the other affairs or just this one with the GF. )
She's still processing. Of course she is going back and forth. And she isn't wrong. You ARE going about your marriage agreements and starting Open relationships irresponsibly.
I agree that you could talk with wife. I hope you choose to talk about a separation plan, so you both get some time apart to think. Then later you can determine what best next steps might be.
Treat those as two separate things. Solve one at a time. Not everything mashed up together.
Sounds like GF is just lumping it for now because she wants to keep access to you. If this gets wonkier, she might cut her losses herself and bail.
There's no reason for all of you to hang out together. Just see each one separate and keep each appraised of the situation.
You could tell GF wife knows about the relationships and you and wife and determining next steps. Married or not. Open or not.
You could tell wife you plan to keep seeing GF.
You seem to like your wife as a person in general, just not as your WIFE. The marriage simply doesn't fit you any more, if it ever did. Why keep it going?
Going through the motions in marriage -- that seems disrespectful and a wonky way to show liking for someone.
Proceed with the separation and counseling and really think all these things out.
Not just leap to an (Open marriage practicing a V with previous cheating partner.) That's a hard row to hoe for all of you.
1) Honestly? "Cheating" was a solution for you to better endure being married. "Open" sounds like another solution for you to better endure being married. Why not just... "stop being married?" Then there's no marriage thing you have to endure?
2) Yes, cut your losses. She's a great person and you admire her and have history, but that is not enough to remain in marriage with her. Marriage together with her is very blah for you. You choose to cheat to endure it. That's not a "good relationship." Why kid yourself? Let the relationship shape change. Maybe she's up for "Divorced and Open" with you. You can ask. But def move toward being more honest and up front about what you want in your relationships.
3) No. Do not keep lying and leading a double life. This behavior is not honest and it's hard to feel proud of. You could aspire to better behaviors than that.
4) Yes. Don't try to "force a V" now that the cheating affair is out in the open. That's jumping the gun. Take it slow here as you navigate what might come next.
I suggest you stick with your plan to separate, and kindly but firmly tell wife you want to divorce so you can be free of this marriage you don't esp like. You want to be good exes and friends with STBX wife if she is willing. You seem to be willing.
THEN sort out if Wife wants to be in your Open network or not.
One thing at a time.
Galagirl
I think that is too many things all mashed up together without enough space or time in between to think and reflect. Where's the fire?
FWIW? I think you could continue with your plan to separate.
Give both you and wife time apart to think and reflect. She can figure out if she wants Open long term or not. Both can determine if you want to continue as...
- Married and having Open relationships.
- Divorced, but dating each other in Open relationship.
- Divorced, not dating each other, only coparenting.
I might guess wrong, but I grey out the first option.
Way back in your original post you list reasons for wanting to leave the marriage.
- You never really had a satisfactory sexual life with wife.
- You think your wife is bossy and a control freak.
- You've been cheating for a while and know the grass is greener on the other side
To me that sounds like you want freedom from this marriage. Why work so hard to keep it going?
You don't seem to enjoy being in it. What you view as "loving" I see as "coping." To me it sounds like she's just lumping it for now, so as not to change more things faster than she's ready.
She caught you cheating with GF from some phone texts. You confessed. (You don't mention if you came clean about the other affairs or just this one with the GF. )
She's still processing. Of course she is going back and forth. And she isn't wrong. You ARE going about your marriage agreements and starting Open relationships irresponsibly.
I agree that you could talk with wife. I hope you choose to talk about a separation plan, so you both get some time apart to think. Then later you can determine what best next steps might be.
- Continuing the marriage or not.
- Open or not.
Treat those as two separate things. Solve one at a time. Not everything mashed up together.
Sounds like GF is just lumping it for now because she wants to keep access to you. If this gets wonkier, she might cut her losses herself and bail.
There's no reason for all of you to hang out together. Just see each one separate and keep each appraised of the situation.
You could tell GF wife knows about the relationships and you and wife and determining next steps. Married or not. Open or not.
You could tell wife you plan to keep seeing GF.
You seem to like your wife as a person in general, just not as your WIFE. The marriage simply doesn't fit you any more, if it ever did. Why keep it going?
Going through the motions in marriage -- that seems disrespectful and a wonky way to show liking for someone.
Proceed with the separation and counseling and really think all these things out.
Not just leap to an (Open marriage practicing a V with previous cheating partner.) That's a hard row to hoe for all of you.
1) Honestly? "Cheating" was a solution for you to better endure being married. "Open" sounds like another solution for you to better endure being married. Why not just... "stop being married?" Then there's no marriage thing you have to endure?
2) Yes, cut your losses. She's a great person and you admire her and have history, but that is not enough to remain in marriage with her. Marriage together with her is very blah for you. You choose to cheat to endure it. That's not a "good relationship." Why kid yourself? Let the relationship shape change. Maybe she's up for "Divorced and Open" with you. You can ask. But def move toward being more honest and up front about what you want in your relationships.
3) No. Do not keep lying and leading a double life. This behavior is not honest and it's hard to feel proud of. You could aspire to better behaviors than that.
4) Yes. Don't try to "force a V" now that the cheating affair is out in the open. That's jumping the gun. Take it slow here as you navigate what might come next.
I suggest you stick with your plan to separate, and kindly but firmly tell wife you want to divorce so you can be free of this marriage you don't esp like. You want to be good exes and friends with STBX wife if she is willing. You seem to be willing.
THEN sort out if Wife wants to be in your Open network or not.
One thing at a time.
Galagirl
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Well the reason I was mentionning it is that it felt like - unlike before when my gf was part of my secret life - I now got over the desire to isolate myself with my gf, I want my wife to be part of all that, which, to me, is a subconscious sign that I care about my wife and want her to be part of my life.
Whether it is practical is, as you say something different.
Thanks GalaGirl, there's a lot of good stuff in what you say.
I guess the option of divorcing but still date her did not cross my mind, but I think it is not realistic - at least not in the long term. The only reason she would ever accept an open relationship is to save our marriage, which she might be tempted to do for plenty of religious / social reasons, or because she really feels she could not live without me. But if we are going the divorce way, these reasons will vanish, and I am convinced that she will strive towards a very committed relationship and most likely might even seek a new marriage with a person that is as conventional as her.
To the question: 'why rush?', I guess you're right. I am of an impatient nature, but for now the situation turned out more favorable than I could have hoped so I can definitely find out how things go.
That's not doing Open because she loves being Open. Doesn't sound like a healthy approach... to do something she doesn't especially want or like just to keeping clinging to a marriage that her spouse finds meh to be in.
In the end, even if she wants to go about marriage that way? She can't carry it out if you simply don't want to be married any more.
I suppose you can grey out the second option too.
- Married and having Open relationships.
- Divorced, but dating each other in Open relationship.
- Divorced, not dating each other, only coparenting.
I say be firm in what you want. You wanted to be free of marriage -- go for it.
If what is left is (divorce, not dating, and coparenting)? Aim for that and try to be a solid coparent partner. She's still going to be in your life in that form.
Galagirl
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breathemusic
Active member
I agree with all of what has been said here so far, in that if having an open marriage so clearly goes against her morals and values and she's being forced to compromise those only because she's trying to avoid divorce, that's not healthy and it's probably best if you pull the plug that she doesn't seem willing to pull herself.
There's no rule that says that post-divorce you both can't still love and care about each other and be friends and co-parents. But why continue a sexual relationship with someone who wants monogamy but will never be able to give you what you want to be happy in said sexual relationship? She may be making some strides to do more of what you want, but it sounds pretty clear that she's never going to fully get there.
There's no rule that says that post-divorce you both can't still love and care about each other and be friends and co-parents. But why continue a sexual relationship with someone who wants monogamy but will never be able to give you what you want to be happy in said sexual relationship? She may be making some strides to do more of what you want, but it sounds pretty clear that she's never going to fully get there.
Let me rephrase to explain the nuance. I believe she would not spontaneously want an open relationship. But at the same time, I think she gets the concept that I need space, my own life with people who can bring me things she can not, and I even think she might want to experiment herself having a life outside out couple (she recently started going out without me several times, which is a very new thing). Not just because she adheres to patriarchal values, but more because she realizes how many things she's
Therefore, if we stay together we could agree on a relationship that is open, where she may or may not have other romantic relationships, and that in itself is not necessarily unhealthy.
At the same time, I suppose that, if we are breaking up, she will probably look for someone who is definitely monogamous.
This is why I thought the possibility of divorcing but keeping an open relationship together not very plausible.
breathemusic
Active member
Oh no, I think I understand what you're getting at. But a life outside of you two as a couple and being able to enjoy hanging out with others, going out, doing things.... that's not poly, that's just having an active social life.
You said before "But I must admit she is doing some back and forth between that stance and then occasionally saying that I am being irresponsible, that I am losing all my moral values, so this makes me feel that there is a chance she revert to her old self."
This speaks VOLUMES to me that she fundamentally thinks that an open-relationship goes against her own morals and values. Not the fact that you need your own life and to do other things outside of your marriage, but the fact that you want to sleep with and/or have a romantic relationship with another person. And if she thinks that is "wrong" but is just accepting you doing that merely to not lose her marriage, then why do that to someone? Why want to continue a romantic relationship with someone who thinks that the way you're conducting your own romantic relationships is wrong?
If she didn't have a morals/values objection to what you were doing, I wouldn't suggest that one or both of you having other partners or having an open relationship was a problem. This is, after all, a forum about polyamory. The problem lies in the fact that she's compromising (at least based on your own description) her own morals/values out of a reluctance to divorce. And that's not a good reason to stay in a marriage.
I tend to agree, the chances of it working out are pretty slim. But I just don't want to rush my judgment, especially as long as her stance is unclear.
I found out that the concept of 'compromising morals/values' is very overrated. We are in an era where ideas get discussed freely, and people do not need to take a rigid stance for their entire life. Prior to meeting my wife, I had some firm ideas about religious education for my kids, about he things that matter in a marriage, and in spite of that, I made big compromises for my relationship to work. Turns out I did so many of them that I got totally drowned in constraints I did not wish, but I am sure that if she had done half of the way in the compromises (as opposed to me totally giving up my values) it could all have worked. All that to say that I think compromises are vital to the success of a marriage.
There's making compromises. Where the issue is small and each side makes concessions in order not to be arguing over small stuff. He likes his toothpaste. I like mine. Is it clutter to have 2 tubes in the small bathroom? Yes. Do we each put up with the clutter so each one can have their brand? Yes. We come to compromise.
Then there's compromising yourself and your values. It sounds like you spent a lot of your marriage compromising yourself/your values. To the point where you totally gave up your values. Went much too far. So you ended up unhappy and are now in a marriage you do not want to be in.
I agree that the chances of things working out with Wife sound slim.
I hope in your future relationships you don't do that. If a relationship requires you to give up major things you value or give up parts of yourself just to "work" --- the price of admission is much too high. It might be better to accept it is too big a gap to try to bridge and let it go. Not compatible in major ways.
Galagirl
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