Unclear relationship, from the metamour's perspective

[natkat15]

Unclear relationship, from the other woman's perspective.

Hi everyone,

I don't want to turn this into a novella, but I have 11 mos. of material to describe concisely. I don't feel like I can talk to friends, or even my therapist, because nobody in my circle is in an open relationship, not like this one, and I know forums can be used as support groups. It all boils down to empathy. Sorry it's more reading, but any feedback would be appreciated.

Disclaimer: I'm not relationship-savvy. Monogamous or otherwise. I'm introverted and focused on school, and I seldom commit to bf's longer than a month. Dating is on a back burner, but this relationship's been an exception. I'm looking for some clarity or validation for my confusion; by all means, feel free to express if you think if it's not valid. I'm thinking that I have gotten myself into a relationship that could be considered poly on my end, and open on the other end. It may be just how I'm seeing it, but it's a confusing situation for me on many levels.

A year ago, I started dating apps for casual sex. It was 6 mos. after a bad relationship, and I needed to start fresh. After 3 weeks of a casual hook ups, I met Tony. His profile listed personal info (he's 17 yrs older) and said "open" on it, so I guessed it meant open relationship. One of the first things I asked him on the chat was parameters, and all he told me was "as long as you know I have a spouse." Not very specific, but I figured we'd specify further on our date.

Our 1st date was amazing; we had instant chemistry and spent hours together. He gave me a run down of his marriage and how their open relationship works. Tony likes being around women and he likes building relationships - I started to detect a possible need for NRE. I asked about what started the o.r. and he told me. His wife is open and she does her own thing (I don't know details). I didn't feel like there were red flags, nor did I feel like I'd be seeing him very much anyway. He did tell me that their rules we strict at first and had slacked to accommodate a rule or two so that they could feel less constricted. They've been married for 15 years, and they seem to have a great marriage. He then showed me a picture of his wife. Yup. I'm practically a replica of this woman. Only difference is age (I'm almost 20 yrs younger). That's when my red flag went up. I told him I don't want to be confused with her. Tony told me he understood but was not worried b/c we were different enough for distinction. I'm still not 100% convinced.
After a week, he insisted that we date b/c he really likes spending time with me. He also told me that I'm the best he's ever had and I make him feel things that no one else has. I told him to stop saying it, b/c it was too much too soon. He brings it up rarely, but he still tells me how deeply he feels. Sounds mushy, right?

Fast fwd 11 months: we're still dating. Surprised? I am!
He comes to my place on a weekly basis, but I've been to his place once when wife was out of town 2 mo. ago. We've had one sleepover. We try to see each other weekly, either for sex or for lunch/dinner, but we miss some bc of schedules/travel. It feels like an addiction sometimes. We miss each other a lot if we skip a week. We don't always have sex on our dates - MOST of the time we do. The sex keeps getting better, which never happens with my bfs. Our time together also involves food, tv shows, movies, and we chat constantly on social media (on 3 platforms) about everything. He often calls me his and he says he's mine (this makes me a little uneasy sometimes). We even exchanged gifts for Christmas. *Side note: I occasionally see other people as well when an opportunity arises. I'm not dropping everything or saying no to sex bc of Tony.* Overall analysis: we're really good friends!

About 4 mos. ago, I had an emotional breakdown. I needed space to focus on school. I stopped seeing other guys, bc it they were more stress. Tony respected my space but he stuck around, and he tells me he wants to help when I have episodes. I.e. to make me happy when I'm sad or anxious. Even though I was trying to push Tony away, he deflected. He sends me love notes, photos, memes, and does whatever he can to make me laugh/smile.

We've talked about our relationship since then. He calls it a 'pseudo-relationship', which is a weird definition to me, but he knows commitment freaks me out. Also, I didn't realize that we had transitioned from fb/dating to that. I like discussing about those things before making assumptions, so I was confused at first. I still don't know what to do with it. Since then, he expresses having deep feelings for me. He's stopped seeing as many people (he shows me his phone every time without me asking), and now it's seems that he's more focused on me than before.

Where I'm confused is being called a "relationship", even with the emotional bond that we have, when I end up sleeping alone every night. He invests time/energy in me by chatting with me almost 24/7 and making room for me in his weekly schedule. It sounds like a lot invested as it is, but that's not enough to justify a "relationship", in my eyes. If he sees it that way, then are we in "poly" territory? The emotional investment that I am making with him, however, is more than just casual, so I feel caught in a gray zone. I reciprocate feelings that he has, don't get me wrong, but I can't justifiably do anything with them, either. I'm not expecting or asking him to dump his marriage for me, I never have, and I don't demand anything from him other than time together. I've been willing to roll with everything he's willing to give, bc I don't feel like I'm entitled to anything from him (time, love, etc.). His wife is entitled to it all, isn't she?

I'm really thankful for the time that Tony gives me, but I'm very aware that my needs seem to be changing. That affects the relationship and I'm going to have to bow out at some point.
His wife hasn't brought up discomfort about our dating for so long, and I know that she's on the 'need to know' basis. So, she only hears about Tony's partners if it affects her schedule, health, etc. She obviously doesn't know EVERYTHING about Tony's relationship with me, right? I'd feel threatened by us if it were me. After 11 mos. of being with him, I think I have figured out Tony's m.o. and the role I play in his marriage. I don't think the affection is fake, but I'm still concerned it's supposed to be meant for his wife. I could be wrong. He IS the luckiest player in this scenario, so it doesn't help my confusion. Whenever I pull away, he follows like a magnet (not creepy stalker way).

If Tony's emotionally invested in both women, then will that have an effect on the status of each side of the relationship? He still tells me that he's not done with me, even when I tell him he can. I don't want to stop talking with him (why would I want to?) and the connection we have feels real, but I don't think the definitions and expectations of this relationship are very clear.

I just feel like I'm in some uncharted territory, here, emotionally, and I have a feeling that feedback and perception will most likely be varied. I'm new to the relationship concept, in general, so none of this is something that I want to try to control or destroy.

I just want to know this: Would anyone else be confused about how to feel or think about this relationship like I am? Poly relationships are not all concrete, but I feel the definitions are always shifting in this situation and I feel so confused. It feels like a mashup situation b/ween poly and open based on the level of emotions involved, but our time together doesn't justify it for what I have been expecting. Feel free to ask questions for clarity. Some sort of counsel or experience with this kind of situation would be much appreciated! AGAIN, sorry for making y'all read so much.

 

[del5]

Hi

Hey you there! I'm new here too and i came for some advice or just a new perspective.

I think I understand why you feel how you feel.

I think Tony is having a poly relationship with both of you. He obviously loves you (whatever loves mean), he has deep feelings for you, he takes care of you, he tries to be a part of your life, and you have a sexual life, for me that sounds as a relationship, so I understand why he call is likethat. And of course he has feelings for his wife. I think is totally possible, and what he feels for you doesn't mean big changes for what he feels for his wife.

but one thing is true: his agreements with his wife are of an "open relationship" which once meant having sex or sexual acts with other people, and how i understand it, some little changes, i imagine they added "dating" like netflix, eating, and whatever stuff dating include and that the wife obviously knows (according to tony). But, does these agreements include falling for someone? Telling someone else how special they are and, in other words, being a partner? Their agreements are okay with his poly feelings? I can't tell you what to do with this matter, but I think is awfully important to be honest and clear with partners and metamours (eventhough you dont consider yourself in a poly relationship, in a way, the wife is your metamour, and she is part of all this).


I dont think is crazy to feel werid with Tony calling your interactions a "realtionship". Of course you don't want him to break up with his wife, but I think is completely understandable to want more of a relationship to call it, wel, a relationship.

I think you know what you want in a relationship. It's okay to want that special person to sleep sometimes with you. And of course is super possible to say to the other person waht you need to feel comfortable in a relationship. Yes, you may want everything. You can ask for all the stuff! But of course, you need to make agreements, so all the stuff you want can make a place to the stuff the other person wants/can offer. It's important that you make a list (maybe just in our mind, maybe write it down) of the stuff you would like in a relationship, go crazy. Then look at all and put it in 3 boxes (imaginary boxes). 1) I can negotiate this; 2) I would really like this but I may understand if its not possible and maybe i can live without it or negotiate it in a way. 3) This is important for me, is not negotiable.

In a way, the wife is the primary relationship of Tony, they live together, they are married, the share economy, life goals, etc. And you are his secondary relationship, a secondary reltiosnhips sometimes just means that you aren't sharing the big stuff (like money and a palce to live), but sometimes it is useful to clasify (just for a moment) because we can realize the real possibilities with the secondary person and that the may depend on the agreemetns of the primary relationship, in this case, that's how it is. Sometimes there are no limits with the secondary in terms of love and sex and family goals, but I guess this is not the case. Disclaimer: i use primary and secondary because is helpful to understan things, not implying that in this case, you are less importante or something like that. Or that you need to call yourself or anyone with those words.

ASk yourself, 'what is a relationship for me?' What do i need from a relationship? Which of it is negotiable? Which isn't? It could be: being totally honest with everyone involved, it could be he possibilty of sleeping together.
Can you imagine yourself having a relationship with Tony knowing you will not live together?(for exmaple)
You, and him, already make an emotional, time and sexual invest. You just gotta think in you right now and in your needs, don't think too much in how to call it. You can ask for things, its not selfish, because when you put your needs in the table, then you know the truth. Maybe hearing from him that he can't give you some things you need to be in a relatioship, helps you clear things up. Maybe he doesn't agree to everything, but you both find ways to give you more of what you want. Talking honestly about this, can only help "in the long way". (I don't know how to say this in english, my first language is spanish).

And of course, if you are going to continue a relationship with him, think if you are okay to hide it from the wife. Are you up to the responsibility of her knowing about it?

I hope i helped. Sorry if i used to many poly vocabulary.
You can answer and we can keep talking.
I send hugs for your confusedself


disclaimer 2: when i say "relationship" it doesn't have a concrete meaning, sometimes it means "romantic relatinoship like boyfriend-girlfirend" sometimes it just means a way to call "something going on with someone else". I hope it doesn't freak you out because of you noncomitment feels.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi natkat15,

I think the thing to do here is figure out what you can and can't control, and what is and isn't acceptable to you, and if the situation is unacceptable, then you should break up with Tony, as that's something you can control. You can't control how Tony handles things with his wife; you can't control what he tells her or if he's honest with her. You yourself can contact her; that's something you can control (if she'll talk to you). You have to decide if that's something you want to do.

Whether the situation is acceptable is really something only you can decide. There's no major rules being broken here as far as I can tell, so I wouldn't fault you for wanting to continue to see Tony. On the other hand, some people would be unsatisfied if they were in your position and there's nothing wrong with ending it if that's the case.

Of course you can always talk with Tony and ask/request things ... He's the one who'll decide how he'll respond, but you can bring it up. Then make your decisions based (in part) on whether what he offers you is acceptable.

It sounds like right now you're just trying to figure things out, which is fine, take as much time as you need. If you'll keep us posted on this thread we can probably give further advice.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you struggle.

I think maybe you are overthinking it a bit too much. I could be wrong. But to me it seems to boil down to one of these statements.

I want to be here with Tony like this -- a casual FWB thing.

• He wants to change it to "serious relationship" so I have to tell him "No, thank you" on that suggestion.

I want to be here with Tony... but NOT like this. I want to change it to X.

• So I have to ask him if he is up for that or not.

I do not want to be here with Tony at all.

• So I have to break up with him firmly and not be "pushing him away" or "hinting" at it so he breaks up with me first so I don't have to do it.

Which one are you going for?

I'm thinking that I have gotten myself into a relationship that could be considered poly on my end, and open on the other end.

People arrange themselves how they want to be in their networks. Are you not happy in V where it is poly on your side and open on the other side? What about it makes you unhappy?

About 4 mos. ago, I had an emotional breakdown.....Even though I was trying to push Tony away, he deflected.

If you don't want to be with him any more? Don't "push him away." Just break up. Be clear. Don't hint.

We've talked about our relationship since then. He calls it a 'pseudo-relationship', which is a weird definition to me, but he knows commitment freaks me out.

If you don't like his word and prefer he use a different word, TELL him. Calibrate so you are speaking common language.

To me "hook-ups" are one time flings. There's no hanging out.

"Booty calls" are regular sex partners, but we don't hang out like friends.

"FWBs" can be regular sex partners AND we hang out like friends.

Booty calls and FWBS to me only last a year or so. Otherwise emotions start developing for me. Then I either have to stop sharing sex so booty calls go back to "nothing" or FWB go back to "friends only, no more benefits" or I accept it is becoming more like "Lovers/BF/GF" stuff. So I have to ask if the partner is up for reframing it that way or not.

Do you want to be with him? I cannot tell. I could be wrong but sometimes your post reads like you trying to convince him to break up with you so you don't have to do it. Is that what is going on?

It sounds like a lot invested as it is, but that's not enough to justify a "relationship", in my eyes.

What DOES constitute "relationship" to you? is that what you want with Tony? Does Tony meet your personal standard for that?

• If so, keep going.
• If not, ask to change it so it does meet your personal standards or end it.

Keep this way easier on yourself. Stop over analyzing. Especially if thinking around in circles just ends up confusing you. Sometimes simply taking concrete action clears up the fog.

The emotional investment that I am making with him, however, is more than just casual, so I feel caught in a gray zone.

What's the gray zone?

If it started out like (FWB) and it is now turning into (lovers/GF/BF) stuff... call it what it now is. Decide what you want to do about that.

I reciprocate feelings that he has, don't get me wrong, but I can't justifiably do anything with them, either.

What are you wanting to do that you are not getting to do? Have you ASKED for it?

I'm not expecting or asking him to dump his marriage for me, I never have, and I don't demand anything from him other than time together. I've been willing to roll with everything he's willing to give, bc I don't feel like I'm entitled to anything from him (time, love, etc.). His wife is entitled to it all, isn't she?

Do you not believe he could treat ALL his dating partners well? Is he treating you poorly somewhere?

If you believe his wife is entitled to good treatment and anyone else gets scraps... why are you choosing to participate in such a thing?

Have you been too passive or hang dog about it? Like "I'll take whatever scraps people have to give" and now you find you don't like that going around with that attitude? Change your attitude.

If it's that you are not giving yourself permission to enjoy it because you are fearful or something? Take the risk. Find out whatever happens -- you CAN handle it. Rather than "holding back" in relationships.

I'm really thankful for the time that Tony gives me, but I'm very aware that my needs seem to be changing. That affects the relationship and I'm going to have to bow out at some point.

What are the needs?

If your needs have changed? Inform him. He cannot be a mind reader. Maybe he is willing to oblige. But you actually have to ask.

If he's not willing to oblige and these things are deal breakers to you? If he no longer meets your personal standards or what you are looking for? Could end it.

If he does meet you needs for now, but you know you want to end it because X? Define the break up point X so you both know what it is and what to do when it arrives.

Was this like a short relationship defined by your school work? Like "We can date until graduation. After that I move on to my next school....so then it's over." Nothing wrong with that if both are clear and on the same page about it. Could enjoy it while it is here.

It seems like you want something "clear cut" laid on the table. You could lay it there yourself and create your own clarity.

He still tells me that he's not done with me, even when I tell him he can.

I don't get why you talk this way.

If YOU don't want to be with him, don't be. End it.

If you DO want to be with him, act like it. Stop being all "there's the door... if you want to go..."

After 11 mos. of being with him, I think I have figured out Tony's m.o. and the role I play in his marriage. I don't think the affection is fake, but I'm still concerned it's supposed to be meant for his wife.

What does this mean?

Are you saying he comes to you to get hot and bothered so he can go home to fuck his wife? And you feel like a sex toy rather than a person?

Are you saying you feel guilty like you are "taking something away from the wife" if he treats you nice when he's with you?

Could you please be willing to clarify?

Whenever I pull away, he follows like a magnet (not creepy stalker way).

Why do you pull away? If you want to end it, why not just END it? If he follows and you want him to stop it, you are not able to tell him to cease and desist following you like a magnet?

I don't want to stop talking with him (why would I want to?) and the connection we have feels real, but I don't think the definitions and expectations of this relationship are very clear.

Could clarify and define to YOURSELF what is and is not acceptable behavior from Tony. And then spell it out to him yourself so he is clear on what behavior you expect from him. Can he do it or not? Then ask him what he expects of you and you tell him if you can do it or not. Have the conversations you need to be having.

You are allowed to take up the space you do in this world. If you have been "shrinking" yourself in this V because you are worried the wife is "entitled to everything" -- and you wind up not feeling so good? You could stop behaving like that so you can start to feel better.

I just want to know this: Would anyone else be confused about how to feel or think about this relationship like I am? Poly relationships are not all concrete, but I feel the definitions are always shifting in this situation and I feel so confused. It feels like a mashup situation b/ween poly and open based on the level of emotions involved, but our time together doesn't justify it for what I have been expecting.

To me, not all polyships are arranged the same. Participants arrange themselves the way they want to be practicing their thing together.

If in your polyship you find that you want more clear cut agreements, definitions, and/or expectations? I think you could get on with making them with Tony. If you have just been "floating along" with whatever he's willing to give and not asserting yourself in the relationship from fear of "taking things away from his wife" or something... and you find it leads to you feeling confused or blah about the relationship?

That's you not advocating for yourself very well. Stop doing that "floating along" behavior and do more "speaking up" behavior. It is possible to state what you hope for or what you would like from the relationship without being aggressive, or a bully, or an asshole about it.

Participate in the relationship and in the things that concern you. Tony cannot be a mind reader.

You haven't actually said in the post what you HAVE been expecting. I think articulating what it is you want to yourself could help you "unconfuse" yourself.

• If what you want is more overnights -- ask for them.

• If feels like he wants to change to "serious relationship" and you don't want to? You like keeping it "casual fuck buddies? " Could say "thanks for the offer to kick it up a notch. But no, thank you. For me I want to keep it casual. I have to decline on that serious relationship offer at this time."

• If you are thinking you are like "scraps" or "disposable" and feel bad as a result? Then it has to start with YOU not talking or thinking about yourself that way.

• If you don't want to be with this guy --- you have to stop "pushing him away" hoping he takes the hint. You have to actually break up once and for all.

What would be your desired outcome in this situation?

Galagirl

 

[natkat15]

Thank you!

Thanks for all of the feedback! I REALLY appreciate it. It's been very encouraging.

It's a relief to actually write this stuff down somewhere and get some perspective on both the alleged situation (how I'm seeing it) and how I'm reacting to it. Sorry that my ideas are muddled by details; a curse of a brain that analyzes from small to big. Clearly, it's a lot more dramatically presented than it could be since I was kind of desperate to write it all out and lift some of the weight from holding it all in. I needed to get it OUT in the open since I haven't really talked to anyone I know who has experience with poly relationships that could provide some sort of ease after hearing me word vomit about it.

GalaGirl, a lot of the stuff you're asking is stuff that I've thought before and kind of swept it under the rug because it was snowballing the overthinking.

I'm NEW to personal relationships. Period. No idea how to start or cultivate one according to my needs or expectations. A result of trying too hard in previous attempts, I think. And that could be obvious from how I was writing before. I don't want to come across as "wah, poor me" - though, typing a purge of thoughts will definitely come out that way.

It's not a miserable situation, so I'm ok with exploring possibilities and speaking up more for myself, for sure. I'm not USED to it with regards to romantic partners, since my experiences haven't been the most nurturing, but I'm willing to stick up for myself. I am confident enough in my life to lay out my needs and ask for things, and I'm ok with saying no to things, too. But all of that skill has been applied outside of situations that aren't so sensitive. It's definitely a new and terrifying skill to build, but it's gonna have to do if I want to feel better.

Have I asked for anything that I want from Tony? Bottom line: nope.

Naïve me didn't realize that I was allowed to, I guess. At least, in this situation. It's a duh factor for a lot of folks, that yeah, I AM allowed to in my own relationship, but I'm green here. Boundaries were never really established on their end, like, how far can I take it, so I haven't really been expecting anything beyond whatever Tony and I have been doing. Kind of a "let's go this way, and see if it turns out" approach instead of constantly trying to rein it in, I think.

When I said I was "pulling away" from him, I was referring to how depressive symptoms include isolation and I am used to people giving up when I do it. Tony didn't specifically cause it (I don't know what did), but some of his behavior could've contributed a little. It's definitely not a rational behavior to push people out in that state, but it's a real feeling and those episodes are often what kill relationships. I was acting out chemically, not rationally - meaning, it seldom reflects accurate emotion, so I end up regretting falling-out behaviors. I was wanting to convey from that paragraph that I was pleasantly surprised that this time yielded a different result. I could've put it like that originally.

To clarify: the most confusing part of all this comes down to knowing what I want to develop from this. Or what CAN develop from it? I'm kind of under the impression that we're not all on the same page, since meeting or interacting with Tony's wife becomes an awkward subject. For both of them. So, I guess that's not on the table at the moment. Which is fine. I don't know why I'm feeling like I'm walking on eggshells, but it may be how Tony presented their relationship to me.

I so often feel like the status of this relationship is solely my responsibility. Though, I now realize that I'm not. That's not fair. But, I'm responsible for me. I think I'm trying to carry weight that's completely not mine to carry. And I now consider it dropped as I'm typing this out.

In conclusion: I have no idea what I want or what I'm expecting from Tony. Maybe not a great start, since I'm not really up for actively searching and being 'blah' about any relationship BUT I know what I don't want. I can be clear about that.

Again, I really appreciate the comments/questions!! Keep 'em coming!

 

[Magdlyn]

Hey natkat, welcome to the board!

At face value, it sounds like you have a relationship with Tony like many of us poly people have with our significant others. You're busy with school, you're introverted. A once a week date full of good feelings and great sex can be just what some people in your situation would like. (Maybe you'd want more once your schedule is less demanding, I don't know.)

There's this term we use, "relationship escalator." In mono culture, the steps are something like this.

Meet someone (in real life or on a dating site)
Have some good chats
Meet
See if there is chemistry
If there is, start having sex
Share activities (movies, cooking meals, doing dishes, pet care, household projects, etc.)
Determine how often you want to see each other
Date according to desire and schedules
Maybe fall in love
Meet each others' friends and family
Have sleepovers (as often as desired or practical)
Start leaving fresh underwear and toiletries at his/her house
Start taking little vacations/trips together
Move in together
Get married
Combine finances
Buy a house
Get a pet if you don't already have one
Have kids
Grow old together (or divorce, ha!)

So! In poly relationships, we may not always follow this path. We can and do choose to stop at any stage. We may be satisfied at any one point.

To answer your question: shouldn't all his love be going to his wife? you make assumptions based on our mono culture default. In poly land the answer is NO! Poly people can love more than one. Obviously he loves you. Do you love him? Are you in love, but calling it "an addiction" to keep yourself from acknowledging you want to move to a different floor on the elevator? Which one?

Personally, I like sleepovers, I like to to take little sightseeing trips. I like a man who takes interest when I talk about my friends and family, even if he doesn't meet them often or at all. I like a man who can help me around the house sometimes, hammer a nail, lift heavy things.

You decide what more you want, if anything! And then request it. He is being a good "hinge" in his V, it sounds like. Respecting his wife and her need to know only basics. Chatting you a LOT. Cheering you when you're down. Etc. But you are allowed to have other needs and desires too! When you figure out what they are, let him know. He might just be waiting to fulfill you more! Or he may not. You won't know unless you discuss it.

Perhaps he and his wife have a "no overnights with others" rule. But there's a good chance they don't. Many many poly people, married, partnered or independent, do like overnight visits.

Stop feeling like a second class citisen. It sounds like there is potential for an expansion of this relationship, if you want it. He actually sounds like a pretty great guy.

 

[GalaGirl]

I am glad you feel a bit better for venting.

I'm NEW to personal relationships. Period. No idea how to start or cultivate one according to my needs or expectations. A result of trying too hard in previous attempts, I think.

To me? If there have been previous attempts, you are not new. And you are in a relationship right now, so it's been started. I think the part where you are struggling is advocating for yourself and speaking up.

I am glad you realize you could do that more.

It's not a miserable situation, so I'm ok with exploring possibilities and speaking up more for myself, for sure. I'm not USED to it with regards to romantic partners, since my experiences haven't been the most nurturing, but I'm willing to stick up for myself. I am confident enough in my life to lay out my needs and ask for things, and I'm ok with saying no to things, too. But all of that skill has been applied outside of situations that aren't so sensitive. It's definitely a new and terrifying skill to build, but it's gonna have to do if I want to feel better.

I don't know if it could help you, but how about just taking all evaluation words out of that? I quote just to visually block it off. Then it becomes something like

In this situation...

• I'm ok with exploring possibilities and speaking up more for myself.
• I'm not used to doing it with romantic partners, but I'm willing to.
  • I can lay out my needs and ask for things.
  • I'm ok with saying no to things.

I've done it before in other situations. It's a skill to build in this situation.
I have to do it if I want to feel better.

Take the "emotional temperature" down some so you aren't triggering anxiety.

Have I asked for anything that I want from Tony? Bottom line: nope.

Naïve me didn't realize that I was allowed to, I guess.

Try asking directly for what you want. Right now you seem to want some clarity. So I encourage you to talk with Tony about it. You are always free to ASK. Just as he is free to respond with "yes" or "no" or something else.

To clarify: the most confusing part of all this comes down to knowing what I want to develop from this. Or what CAN develop from it? I'm kind of under the impression that we're not all on the same page, since meeting or interacting with Tony's wife becomes an awkward subject. For both of them. So, I guess that's not on the table at the moment. Which is fine. I don't know why I'm feeling like I'm walking on eggshells, but it may be how Tony presented their relationship to me.

If there's eggshells you are putting on the table? Stop putting them there.

If someone else is putting them on there? Ask them to stop.

Not everyone you date is going to be a long haul runner. That's just a fact of life. I get being shy on the first few dates but after a point? You have to start actively participating in getting to know this person and ask what they are seeking. Explain what you are seeking. No hemming and hawing and no walking on eggshells. Just polite, direct, assertive conversation to see if this is going to work out or not.

Feeling awkward goes away through confidence. Confidence is grown by doing. It does not fall out of the sky. It's like a muscle that grows with exercise. Could exercise the skills you want to strengthen.

Boundaries were never really established on their end, like, how far can I take it, so I haven't really been expecting anything beyond whatever Tony and I have been doing.

They do not set boundaries for you. YOU set your boundaries for you. YOU express what you are willing to do, and not willing to do.

They each set their own boundaries for what each of them is/is not up for also.

It's like you keep looking to them to set the tone, but then get annoyed you feel second class. How about you all set the tone for yourselves? Don't take on the weight for everyone -- just each one carries their own bag. Each one is responsible for speaking up for their own self.

Then you can focus on sorting out what lines up and what does not and where compatibility lies.

Kind of a "let's go this way, and see if it turns out" approach instead of constantly trying to rein it in, I think.

I think there's a middle path. You don't have to rein things in. But you also don't have to "see how it goes" like fishing in the dark all over the universe. You can express what you are and are not up for. Then there's still plenty to explore, but it's within the general ball park stadium.

Maybe advocating for yourself and defining what "in the ball park" is to you could help you feel more confident participating here.

HTH!
Galagirl

 

[phylhotwaxpainter]

Hi everyone,

I don't want to turn this into a novella, but I have 11 mos. of material to describe concisely. I don't feel like I can talk to friends, or even my therapist, because nobody in my circle is in an open relationship, not like this one, and I know forums can be used as support groups. It all boils down to empathy. Sorry it's more reading, but any feedback would be appreciated.

Disclaimer: I'm not relationship-savvy. Monogamous or otherwise. I'm introverted and focused on school, and I seldom commit to bf's longer than a month. Dating is on a back burner, but this relationship's been an exception. I'm looking for some clarity or validation for my confusion; by all means, feel free to express if you think if it's not valid. I'm thinking that I have gotten myself into a relationship that could be considered poly on my end, and open on the other end. It may be just how I'm seeing it, but it's a confusing situation for me on many levels.

A year ago, I started dating apps for casual sex. It was 6 mos. after a bad relationship, and I needed to start fresh. After 3 weeks of a casual hook ups, I met Tony. His profile listed personal info (he's 17 yrs older) and said "open" on it, so I guessed it meant open relationship. One of the first things I asked him on the chat was parameters, and all he told me was "as long as you know I have a spouse." Not very specific, but I figured we'd specify further on our date.

Our 1st date was amazing; we had instant chemistry and spent hours together. He gave me a run down of his marriage and how their open relationship works. Tony likes being around women and he likes building relationships - I started to detect a possible need for NRE. I asked about what started the o.r. and he told me. His wife is open and she does her own thing (I don't know details). I didn't feel like there were red flags, nor did I feel like I'd be seeing him very much anyway. He did tell me that their rules we strict at first and had slacked to accommodate a rule or two so that they could feel less constricted. They've been married for 15 years, and they seem to have a great marriage. He then showed me a picture of his wife. Yup. I'm practically a replica of this woman. Only difference is age (I'm almost 20 yrs younger). That's when my red flag went up. I told him I don't want to be confused with her. Tony told me he understood but was not worried b/c we were different enough for distinction. I'm still not 100% convinced.
After a week, he insisted that we date b/c he really likes spending time with me. He also told me that I'm the best he's ever had and I make him feel things that no one else has. I told him to stop saying it, b/c it was too much too soon. He brings it up rarely, but he still tells me how deeply he feels. Sounds mushy, right?

Fast fwd 11 months: we're still dating. Surprised? I am!
He comes to my place on a weekly basis, but I've been to his place once when wife was out of town 2 mo. ago. We've had one sleepover. We try to see each other weekly, either for sex or for lunch/dinner, but we miss some bc of schedules/travel. It feels like an addiction sometimes. We miss each other a lot if we skip a week. We don't always have sex on our dates - MOST of the time we do. The sex keeps getting better, which never happens with my bfs. Our time together also involves food, tv shows, movies, and we chat constantly on social media (on 3 platforms) about everything. He often calls me his and he says he's mine (this makes me a little uneasy sometimes). We even exchanged gifts for Christmas. *Side note: I occasionally see other people as well when an opportunity arises. I'm not dropping everything or saying no to sex bc of Tony.* Overall analysis: we're really good friends!

About 4 mos. ago, I had an emotional breakdown. I needed space to focus on school. I stopped seeing other guys, bc it they were more stress. Tony respected my space but he stuck around, and he tells me he wants to help when I have episodes. I.e. to make me happy when I'm sad or anxious. Even though I was trying to push Tony away, he deflected. He sends me love notes, photos, memes, and does whatever he can to make me laugh/smile.

We've talked about our relationship since then. He calls it a 'pseudo-relationship', which is a weird definition to me, but he knows commitment freaks me out. Also, I didn't realize that we had transitioned from fb/dating to that. I like discussing about those things before making assumptions, so I was confused at first. I still don't know what to do with it. Since then, he expresses having deep feelings for me. He's stopped seeing as many people (he shows me his phone every time without me asking), and now it's seems that he's more focused on me than before.

Where I'm confused is being called a "relationship", even with the emotional bond that we have, when I end up sleeping alone every night. He invests time/energy in me by chatting with me almost 24/7 and making room for me in his weekly schedule. It sounds like a lot invested as it is, but that's not enough to justify a "relationship", in my eyes. If he sees it that way, then are we in "poly" territory? The emotional investment that I am making with him, however, is more than just casual, so I feel caught in a gray zone. I reciprocate feelings that he has, don't get me wrong, but I can't justifiably do anything with them, either. I'm not expecting or asking him to dump his marriage for me, I never have, and I don't demand anything from him other than time together. I've been willing to roll with everything he's willing to give, bc I don't feel like I'm entitled to anything from him (time, love, etc.). His wife is entitled to it all, isn't she?

I'm really thankful for the time that Tony gives me, but I'm very aware that my needs seem to be changing. That affects the relationship and I'm going to have to bow out at some point.
His wife hasn't brought up discomfort about our dating for so long, and I know that she's on the 'need to know' basis. So, she only hears about Tony's partners if it affects her schedule, health, etc. She obviously doesn't know EVERYTHING about Tony's relationship with me, right? I'd feel threatened by us if it were me. After 11 mos. of being with him, I think I have figured out Tony's m.o. and the role I play in his marriage. I don't think the affection is fake, but I'm still concerned it's supposed to be meant for his wife. I could be wrong. He IS the luckiest player in this scenario, so it doesn't help my confusion. Whenever I pull away, he follows like a magnet (not creepy stalker way).

If Tony's emotionally invested in both women, then will that have an effect on the status of each side of the relationship? He still tells me that he's not done with me, even when I tell him he can. I don't want to stop talking with him (why would I want to?) and the connection we have feels real, but I don't think the definitions and expectations of this relationship are very clear.

I just feel like I'm in some uncharted territory, here, emotionally, and I have a feeling that feedback and perception will most likely be varied. I'm new to the relationship concept, in general, so none of this is something that I want to try to control or destroy.

I just want to know this: Would anyone else be confused about how to feel or think about this relationship like I am? Poly relationships are not all concrete, but I feel the definitions are always shifting in this situation and I feel so confused. It feels like a mashup situation b/ween poly and open based on the level of emotions involved, but our time together doesn't justify it for what I have been expecting. Feel free to ask questions for clarity. Some sort of counsel or experience with this kind of situation would be much appreciated! AGAIN, sorry for making y'all read so much.

Sleepovers are a touchy thing for a lot of people. It is for me. My husband went on one very recently and I tried to get past it. I couldn't. So as for right now, sleepovers while not off the table, we need to have a discussion about it. It does make me cringe you have not met his wife yet. You should have. I would have felt more comfortable if I knew her, knew what she actually wants, and if I could trust her. (I'm very guarded, as any dynamic added to a relationship has the potential for damaging it.) And that maybe where his wife is coming from; maybe that was a rule he broke.
A lot of people will say that's not his responsibility but I disagree, especially in a marriage. Yes it is on her as well, yet as a lifetime partner he does have a responsibility to his relationship with her. And there are hierarchies! Just as he put you before the other people he was dating, his wife will come before you. That's the reality of his relationship. But he also has the responsibility to not hurt you and to be upfront with both of you. Again COMMUNICATION.
You need to figure out what you want and if those wants align with what you get out of this relationship. People can have feelings for more than one person, his feelings for you are more than likely real. Is your relationship still in the honeymoon phase? It sounds like it might be.
To quote Dan Savage, you knew what the price of admission was. The question is do you want to invest the cost. You knew you would be sharing him with his wife and that because of their rules, your relationship would not be equal to theirs. Can you accept that he loves his wife? It does sound like you two are more than just friends- which may or may not be against their rules. Again, that's his responsibility not yours! Is he breaking their parameters? I can't help but to think that there maybe something he's not letting you in on. You need better communication.
I come from the place of being a wife. We try to make it abundantly clear to our respective relationships that we take precedent. That the other will always be there.