Boundaries vs Walls

[starlight1]

So I'm doing a lot of therapy. And I can't figure out how to determine when I am setting a healthy boundary in a relationship in poly, or a wall?

For example...

The current guy I have been talking to online (we haven't met in person) continually brings his other metamour into the situations with me. From the start he said he wanted to bring this other person on board, because they had in the past had a successful triad. (where all was sexual and romantic to all).

I explained I'm not sure I want that, but tentatively let things slide, like his first skype meeting including me and the metamour. I will give them both nicknames for the purpose of this thread.

Dave for my love interest.
and Fred for Dave's Partner.

I told Dave after the skype was over and in a private moment a few days later that I didn't appreciate him bringing on board Fred to our skype conversation when it was the first time I had seen him, and I wasn't aware that person was there! I felt like it gave both me and Fred no choice on if we wanted to interact with the other. Since then I have consistently said here are my ground rules for my own interaction with Fred:
- I prefer to speak and type to Dave alone.
- I prefer to know before hand when Fred will be around so I can choose if I want to interact and the same courtesy would be nice to be extended to Fred (but obviously not my choice because that's his relationship to deal in.)
- I prefer not to be told of any sexual fantasies either Dave or Fred have about me when they are engaging in sex and wondering what I might do in those situations. That's PRIVATE and THEIR sexual time, I don't care if they fantasize about trump or flying pigs, but I don't want to *hear* or *know* about it. lol.

I feel like these are reasonable things to ask. But I'm not sure at what point I am doing this to ease my own discomfort in the situation and building walls, when normally I am a bit more inclusive and not bothered, and how much is exerting healthy boundaries? I grew up in a family with *no* boundaries and I have boundaries pretty good with my kids, but with adult men (especially in relationships configurations) I capitulate.

So my question to reiterate is, how do you decide for yourself what is a wall (that pushes people away but is not for the benefit of your wellbeing or even preference necessarily) and a boundary (The thing you put into place to preserve your own sense of safety and wellbeing, and protects your identity of 'you'). Also if you have different meanings to walls and boundaries I'd be open to hearing that as well.

And how do you implement boundaries when you figure them out, especially if its the opposite of what the partner or metamour wants?

 

[anamikanon]

Sounds reasonable. I think you're rattled by Fred being present while you're barely getting to know Dave, which makes you a bit proactive in setting ground rules. As opposed to having anything against Fred. If true it may help if Dave realizes that you aren't thinking triad at this point, you're still figuring the two of you out and would like the space to do this privately between the two of you instead of feeling like you have a voyeur (who also may be fantasizing about you). In your place, I'd definitely find it invasive.

Explain that giving you this space will allow your relationship with Dave to thrive and not cut eventual possibilities off with Fred altogether because he ruins things for you when not wanted. Make it clear that you accept and appreciate Fred being in Dave's life, but you haven't consented to Fred being in your life.

More importantly, I think you may need a conversation about what kind of relationship you both are envisioning. Seems you're thinking of Dave and you, while Dave is thinking of Dave, Fred and you. In that case it could be a mismatch in basic needs/expectations from each other.

 

[vinsanity0]

I think a boundary becomes a wall if the other person can't deal with the boundary. That is not your fault.

I imagine that if I were in your situation I would feel like I was being interviewed by a couple. It would be hard for me to let myself have feelings for one person if the eventual outcome was contingent on me having feelings for another.

 

[SW1231]

I think a boundary becomes a wall if the other person can't deal with the boundary. That is not your fault.

This is a very interesting perspective. I have had serious trouble with creating boundaries in my life, poly or not. I am very trusting of people, typically, and it has led to my demise, in some instances. For me, the lines between boundaries and walls are VERY blurred. It's frustrating, because I want to believe what people tell me to be true, and at times, those verbal expressions do not sync with exhibited behavior. That makes me put up walls, so it can feel like a Catch 22, at times.

Figuring out where to draw the line has proven to be difficult.

 

[Ravenscroft]

The global question -- boundary, or wall? -- is hardly easy or simple to answer. FWIW, there's stuff that I've walled off (temporarily or longterm) simply because I didn't feel capable of working on it at that time, or maybe didn't see any pressing need to expend the effort.

As for the boys: you were bait-&-switched. That sets the whole situation back to zero, & everyone gets to begin again -- including you deciding whether you even want to contact (or be contacted by) someone showing interest.

Let's say I'd found myself in a situation analogous to yours: chatting with an attractive woman only tofind she's brought her girlfriend along to be part of the package.

Look, I am a guy: I'd probably find this terribly flattering!! ...but I'd also need some time to think about it, wrapping my head around a situation that's gone significantly more complex, like from "one dyad" to "three dyads + one triad" & therefore with multiplied risk & downside -- scheduling issues, jealousy, what's gonna happen if one of those dyads goes faulty -- to balance the slightly increased upside.

That's NOT "building a wall." That's expecting to be treated civilly, without undue pressure or coercion.

Anyone who's told you that's "a wall" should (IMNSHO) be slapped until s/he bleeds from the ears.

You have rights -- don't help others take them from you.

 

[GalaGirl]

From the start he said he wanted to bring this other person on board, because they had in the past had a successful triad. (where all was sexual and romantic to all). I explained I'm not sure I want that, but tentatively let things slide,

To me ? If it is a joyous "yes" -- that's a YES!

Here it does not sound like "joyous yes" for a triad. So call it a "working no." Don't let it slide and be clear. Something like...

"I am not looking for a triad. If I change my mind later I can let you know, but you need to know I don't want a triad at this time. I am ok with a V at this time. "​

how do you decide for yourself what is a wall (that pushes people away but is not for the benefit of your wellbeing or even preference necessarily) and a boundary (The thing you put into place to preserve your own sense of safety and wellbeing, and protects your identity of 'you').

I guess to me boundaries are walls. Just waist high, with a gate I can open and close when I feel like it. I am in charge. I am the gatekeeper.

The other kind of "fortress wall" you seem to be talking about are ALL WALL. No gate. It's just a big ol' NO, NOBODY, NEVER.

I can talk over the fence to the neighbor, friend, relative, whoever and have a good time. But I don't invite ALL of them in closer to me.

Let's the the situation is (sex.) I have lovers who get invited to come in at the gate. I have relatives and friends that are NOT my lovers. They don't get to come in the gate at all. Doesn't mean I don't care about them or value them in my life, but I just don't see me being a lover to all and sundry.

If the situation is (seeing me in Pajamas)... I sure as heck wouldn't be in PJ's around the bank teller or grocery clerk, and not normally around my friends either. But in a special situation of "group vacation" I can choose to open the gate a bit more than I normally would in other situations. Because the vacation people might see me due to the hotel/camping arrangements? I will accept that I need to be more flexible about that gate. I might choose to bring a black t-shirt and red flannel plaid bottoms for "company PJ's" rather than something skimpy or sexy. The "gate" there becomes the style of pajamas. I still control the gate and how much I let them see of me.

You seem to have some preferences for your interactions with your potential/BF person Dave. Right now you seem to want to get to know Dave better without him foisting Fred on you for a triad.

(That's not a turn on -- triad's cannot be forced. )

I don't think your preferences at this time are unreasonable or unhealthy.

• You want to know who is present during Skype/speakerphone situations.
• You want to know if invitations to gatherings are going to be a (you + Dave) gathering, or if it is going to be be a (you + Dave + Fred) gathering ahead of time so you can choose to participate or not from an informed place.
• You don't want to be hearing TMI sex fantasy stuff from their side of the "V."

Someone who balks at these reasonable requests? I would wonder what their problem is. Are the trying to railroad me into a triad? Love bombing me? Seeking enmeshment and trying to glom on to me? What?

And how do you implement boundaries when you figure them out, especially if its the opposite of what the partner or metamour wants?

The other person doesn't have to like my boundaries. I don't put a fence up with a gate to help them interact with the world in manageable chunks. I put them up for ME so I can deal with interacting with the world in manageable chunks and not become the world's doormat.

If I have boundaries about something, I just make them aware. "Just to make you aware, I do/do not do X. Please respect that." Whether it's smoking around me or whatever it is.

If I don't want to be breathing smoke, and the person deliberately blows in my face after I asked them nicely not to? There's consequences I can do. I can go sit somewhere else.

If I don't want to be wearing pajamas in front of a bank teller, they cannot force me to. If thy try to bully me into changing into PJs, there's consequences I can do. I can report them, I can walk away and bank somewhere else, etc.

If you want to know who is present during Skype dates and the other person doesn't like it and keeps "sneaking" other people in to voyeur or whatever... there's a consequence you can do. You stop skype-ing with them. Interact in other ways.

If it keeps ON happening? You can walk away and not interact with them at all.

There's certain personalities who view other people having healthy boundaries as "challenges" to break down. They get off on mind games and running roughshod right over the person. I find it easiest to not deal with those types. It's not you "putting up walls" -- it's them being really FRESH!

Galagirl

 

[starlight1]

Sounds reasonable. I think you're rattled by Fred being present while you're barely getting to know Dave, which makes you a bit proactive in setting ground rules. As opposed to having anything against Fred. If true it may help if Dave realizes that you aren't thinking triad at this point, you're still figuring the two of you out and would like the space to do this privately between the two of you instead of feeling like you have a voyeur (who also may be fantasizing about you). In your place, I'd definitely find it invasive.

Explain that giving you this space will allow your relationship with Dave to thrive and not cut eventual possibilities off with Fred altogether because he ruins things for you when not wanted. Make it clear that you accept and appreciate Fred being in Dave's life, but you haven't consented to Fred being in your life.

More importantly, I think you may need a conversation about what kind of relationship you both are envisioning. Seems you're thinking of Dave and you, while Dave is thinking of Dave, Fred and you. In that case it could be a mismatch in basic needs/expectations from each other.

Yes that's definitely the case.
I'm in the middle of talking with a lot of potential people before I move, so I'm having a lot of interactions with people.
In this case we spoke and he apologised, I also told him about this thread and plan on showing it directly. Seems the easiest way.

Thanks for the advice
Yes I completely agree there was a mismatch of expectations which was clarified and sorted as best as possible.

 

[starlight1]

I think a boundary becomes a wall if the other person can't deal with the boundary. That is not your fault.

I imagine that if I were in your situation I would feel like I was being interviewed by a couple. It would be hard for me to let myself have feelings for one person if the eventual outcome was contingent on me having feelings for another.

Yes it felt like that, but I think originally it was just enthusiasm and not knowing any other format than triad in past, that just happened and all were happy, and I don't think either realised how rare that actually is.

The boundary/wall sentence, best 1 line sentence I ever heard of a descriptor dividing the two. A little over simplified for me as I needed slightly a larger breakdown of examples (Such as gala) but I still think it makes a bad ass quote and would be great to have the in the quote section.

 

[starlight1]

The global question -- boundary, or wall? -- is hardly easy or simple to answer. FWIW, there's stuff that I've walled off (temporarily or longterm) simply because I didn't feel capable of working on it at that time, or maybe didn't see any pressing need to expend the effort.

As for the boys: you were bait-&-switched. That sets the whole situation back to zero, & everyone gets to begin again -- including you deciding whether you even want to contact (or be contacted by) someone showing interest.

Let's say I'd found myself in a situation analogous to yours: chatting with an attractive woman only tofind she's brought her girlfriend along to be part of the package.

Look, I am a guy: I'd probably find this terribly flattering!! ...but I'd also need some time to think about it, wrapping my head around a situation that's gone significantly more complex, like from "one dyad" to "three dyads + one triad" & therefore with multiplied risk & downside -- scheduling issues, jealousy, what's gonna happen if one of those dyads goes faulty -- to balance the slightly increased upside.

That's NOT "building a wall." That's expecting to be treated civilly, without undue pressure or coercion.

Anyone who's told you that's "a wall" should (IMNSHO) be slapped until s/he bleeds from the ears.

You have rights -- don't help others take them from you.

Actually I Was more worried I baited and switched THEM because I originally went yeah sure I'm fine with this, then went...actually no, no, no; I'm not!
And it was really jarring for me, but it kind of happened on that skype session, I realised 110% I had no desire seeing a potential partner with a partner before I had even established if this person was more than just potential. I was asking myself...do I have to interact with this person too? What if I don't like this person? What if their values and desires and time and energy are just things I don't even want to be around? I need to slow this all a bit down!

And after that I made the list.

He only suggested it was a wall once, and I simply said I didn't think it was, and he suggested I was intimidated by Fred, and I said no. And he accepted both amicably. Basically no one knows my own feelings or thoughts than me I had to explain.

 

[starlight1]

To me ? If it is a joyous "yes" -- that's a YES!

Here it does not sound like "joyous yes" for a triad. So call it a "working no." Don't let it slide and be clear. Something like...

"I am not looking for a triad. If I change my mind later I can let you know, but you need to know I don't want a triad at this time. I am ok with a V at this time. "​

Haha. Yes it's not a joyous yes, it was only a hesitant yes. And does really anyone blame me after the P and Trip scenario. That was a good example of Triangulation, gaslighting, and poly hell (at least on their side, I mostly was the outlier).

And yes. I am working on consistently keeping to this. That's the BIGGEST part of walls/boundaries I struggle with it keeping firm with them.

I guess to me boundaries are walls. Just waist high, with a gate I can open and close when I feel like it. I am in charge. I am the gatekeeper.

The other kind of "fortress wall" you seem to be talking about are ALL WALL. No gate. It's just a big ol' NO, NOBODY, NEVER.

I can talk over the fence to the neighbor, friend, relative, whoever and have a good time. But I don't invite ALL of them in closer to me.

Let's the the situation is (sex.) I have lovers who get invited to come in at the gate. I have relatives and friends that are NOT my lovers. They don't get to come in the gate at all. Doesn't mean I don't care about them or value them in my life, but I just don't see me being a lover to all and sundry.

If the situation is (seeing me in Pajamas)... I sure as heck wouldn't be in PJ's around the bank teller or grocery clerk, and not normally around my friends either. But in a special situation of "group vacation" I can choose to open the gate a bit more than I normally would in other situations. Because the vacation people might see me due to the hotel/camping arrangements? I will accept that I need to be more flexible about that gate. I might choose to bring a black t-shirt and red flannel plaid bottoms for "company PJ's" rather than something skimpy or sexy. The "gate" there becomes the style of pajamas. I still control the gate and how much I let them see of me.

You seem to have some preferences for your interactions with your potential/BF person Dave. Right now you seem to want to get to know Dave better without him foisting Fred on you for a triad.

(That's not a turn on -- triad's cannot be forced. )

I don't think your preferences at this time are unreasonable or unhealthy.

Thanks for the validation. Yes I said it felt forced and he agreed. But I said that words are weak and actions are more important and he needed to be more consistent with ACTIONS and not just words. And I explained the specifics below, except that I didn't say what I would do if that happens so I might add what will happen if boundaries are continually crossed....

Also the gate was such a great example, I could really get on board with the visual examples and descriptions. It REALLY helped me to see the different level of interactions, and that as an adult I choose at what level I want to interact with anyone. It seems like such an obvious thing but I'm only justrealising that I have this choice, and can enforce it as I like. Its one of the biggest reasons I took a time out from all relating, I realised there was so much noise going on around me and influencing decisions and I knew I was a pushover/suggestable, but I had no concrete way to stop. It's not just a matter of self belief it's also a structure and having understanding of what a boundary is and how to enforce it healthily. It's taking me so long to learn basic rights I have taught my kids? That seems so odd that I taught this regularly to my kids but didn't allow myself the same RIGHTS I felt were absolutely essential for everyone else.

• You want to know who is present during Skype/speakerphone situations.
• You want to know if invitations to gatherings are going to be a (you + Dave) gathering, or if it is going to be be a (you + Dave + Fred) gathering ahead of time so you can choose to participate or not from an informed place.
• You don't want to be hearing TMI sex fantasy stuff from their side of the "V."

Someone who balks at these reasonable requests? I would wonder what their problem is. Are the trying to railroad me into a triad? Love bombing me? Seeking enmeshment and trying to glom on to me? What?

These are good questions and I will be asking them. Updates later.

The other person doesn't have to like my boundaries. I don't put a fence up with a gate to help them interact with the world in manageable chunks. I put them up for ME so I can deal with interacting with the world in manageable chunks and not become the world's doormat.

This as I said before was just like, something I just wasn't grasping. That it's ok for other people to be upset about my boundary, and that's ok, its not the end of the world. I mean I understood this with my kids, but not in relation to me relating to other people. I found it so intensely uncomfortable to watch people be upset, and with my PTSD in some cases thought it meant I'd be physically harmed even if that wasn't truth (no fire but felt like fire) and so I just didn't see how I could stand there and calmly say, actually this is my boundary. However I am getting a lot of practice now with a certain family member and it's actually being done with a calm attitude on my end regardless of how angry they get at me for not agreeing to unreasonable requests. So progress is being made. Victim NO MORE.

If I have boundaries about something, I just make them aware. "Just to make you aware, I do/do not do X. Please respect that." Whether it's smoking around me or whatever it is.

If I don't want to be breathing smoke, and the person deliberately blows in my face after I asked them nicely not to? There's consequences I can do. I can go sit somewhere else.

If I don't want to be wearing pajamas in front of a bank teller, they cannot force me to. If thy try to bully me into changing into PJs, there's consequences I can do. I can report them, I can walk away and bank somewhere else, etc.

If you want to know who is present during Skype dates and the other person doesn't like it and keeps "sneaking" other people in to voyeur or whatever... there's a consequence you can do. You stop skype-ing with them. Interact in other ways.

If it keeps ON happening? You can walk away and not interact with them at all.

There's certain personalities who view other people having healthy boundaries as "challenges" to break down. They get off on mind games and running roughshod right over the person. I find it easiest to not deal with those types. It's not you "putting up walls" -- it's them being really FRESH!

Galagirl

Yup most of my life was this way with people who liked to deliberately sabotage my boundaries. I was the "weak scapegoat" in my bio family house. I was physically the smallest, and also the most timid, I didn't speak up for my self, and I was constantly bullied by most of my family members except my grandma.
My brother, my mother, my dad, my ex husband..and uncles...I've not had many partners like this now, I don't think Dave is being this way, I think that's more a possible misunderstanding than deliberate meanness, it seems to be benign walking over boundaries rather than intentional. Intentions in this matter too I think, and willing(and able) to learn and change.

But like I suggested to other people I am keeping an eye on it and monitoring if it gets worse or better and if it doesn't it simply means were incompatible for anything further.

Thanks for the input Gala.

 

[GalaGirl]

Glad the "gate" visual helped some.

as an adult I choose at what level I want to interact with anyone. It seems like such an obvious thing but I'm only just realising that I have this choice, and can enforce it as I like

You do have this choice and you can enforce it as you please. You set your boundaries for YOU.

Your willingness to participate in things or not belongs to YOU.

I am glad you realize all that and will be looking out for that more.

I found it so intensely uncomfortable to watch people be upset, and with my PTSD in some cases thought it meant I'd be physically harmed even if that wasn't truth (no fire but felt like fire) and so I just didn't see how I could stand there and calmly say, actually this is my boundary. However I am getting a lot of practice now with a certain family member and it's actually being done with a calm attitude on my end regardless of how angry they get at me for not agreeing to unreasonable requests.

Say your family member makes a request of you. And you say "No, thanks. I am not able to do that."

It's ok for them to feel angry or disappointed or upset that you won't do the thing. They feel whatever they feel. But they cannot start kicking all your furniture and stabbing the cat and throwing all the vases. That's not appropriate expression of upset. That's acting out. And you are within your rights to say

"I see that you are upset. But (list the behavior) is not appropriate behavior. I suggest you go home and sort yourself out. I'll expect an apology/restitution for the inappropriate behavior."​

Your boundary is that (you expect guests to behave in your home.)

If I get mad at your house and smash your vases? I would be crossing that line.

I would have to apologize, and offer to buy a new vase and replace the ones I messed up in order to make amends. I would also have to demonstrate self control the next time.

Otherwise the consequence that YOU can do is never let me in your house again.

I don't have to LIKE that boundary. You do not put it in place for me to like. You put it in place for YOU -- so you can feel safe in your home.

You don't have to feel afraid when someone else is upset. What's the worst that's gonna happen? The angry relative takes their tantrum self home and never talks to you again because they are too prideful/vain to apologize for bad behavior? Win for you. Never have to deal with tantrum like that again!

I hope the talk with Dave goes well, and he straightens up his behavior when you make him aware that you don't like this "triad pushing."

Galagirl

 

[starlight1]

This is a very interesting perspective. I have had serious trouble with creating boundaries in my life, poly or not. I am very trusting of people, typically, and it has led to my demise, in some instances. For me, the lines between boundaries and walls are VERY blurred. It's frustrating, because I want to believe what people tell me to be true, and at times, those verbal expressions do not sync with exhibited behavior. That makes me put up walls, so it can feel like a Catch 22, at times.

Figuring out where to draw the line has proven to be difficult.

I am sorry you are having confusion too, but I hope this thread is helping.

That's what was confusing me here, was the actions vs words, because he was telling me on the face of it that he's fine with no expectation between me and Fred, but his actions were encouraging a kitchen table type poly, and me going hold up I don't know if I even want to be in the same space as Fred.

 

[GalaGirl]

When "talk" and "walk" do not match, I go with the walk. Keeps it a whole lot easier on me.

Because talk without supporting action is cheap and/or one could be lying. Where behavior I can see with my own eyes or hear with my ears if it is happening or not.

It's frustrating, because I want to believe what people tell me to be true, and at times, those verbal expressions do not sync with exhibited behavior. That makes me put up walls,

I think it is ok to start out with low wall with a flexible gate. And then put up higher walls with no gate if I find I am with an untrustworthy person. Some people are just not safe to trust at their Word.

That's not me putting up walls for no reason. They've given me reason to be extra cautious -- their talk and walk do not match.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi starlight1,

I think that asking Dave not to invite Fred along on skype sessions (without your prior consent), that is not a wall, that is a boundary. It was uncool of Dave to do that to you.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.