Difficulty getting needed transparency

M

MightyMalthus

New member
Hello all...fairly new to this website but not to this lifestyle.

My issue revolves around the transparency, or rather, the LACK of transparency, that I'm getting from my person. To make a long story short, we've been together almost 18 months and I have struggled getting across how my need for her transparency when she pursues other relationships almost always gets lost in the shuffle of her desires to pursue these relationships.

A few months into our relationship, she dealt with an issue between us by sleeping with someone she knew previously and not telling me about it until some days later. Normally, that would have been my cue for an immediate exit from the relationship, but I dug this chick and thought we might be able to get through it. We did, but I made very clear that I required transparency and disclosure from her BEFORE she followed through on her pursuits. In other words, while I am OK with her being intimate with others, I am in no way OK with not knowing about it until after the fact. In addition, I said that I need to know beforehand when she makes plans to spend time with her companions. Playing the cuckold is not something I ever agreed to, and it does not suit me in the slightest. Bear in mind that I have never sought to curb her appetites nor have I ever demanded that she ask my permission; what I seek is an open conversation and a clear understanding as to where things are headed.

Sadly, that conversation has been an ongoing one in the ensuing year or so, and I find myself at the point of either leaving the relationship or severely downgrading my commitment to it. My view on this has been clear and consistent the entire time: she is free to pursue other relationships with the caveat that she proactively addresses it with me before any intimacy takes place. Her response to my reactions to these multiple breaches in protocol is either that I am just jealous or that my need for this transparency is unreasonable. The obvious result of this is that my trust in her has been utterly compromised.

I'm sure all of you can see the dilemma, and your thoughts are most welcome. I thank you all in advance for your time. Be well.
 
Hi Malthus!

I've been poly for about 5 years now, I have 1 girlfriend and 4 lovers. I have definitely tried to navigate situations like yours before.

From what I read, it seems like what you need and what she finds reasonable are at odds with each other.

I've definitely had lovers who have different ideas on how to be polyamorous. Some are more heirarchical, others are more anarchistic. I fall somewhere in between: I don't like "primary" or "secondary" type labels, and I want more commitment than just a "whenever we see each other" type attitude.

It also seems like you want something from her; you have a vision for where the relationship is going and what it should be. Is that vision shared between you two? Is she looking to you for the same thing that you're looking to her for?

I was in a relationship with someone who was more of a relationship anarchist: no commitment to anyone, no labels, her time is hers. And that's awesome. I'm more of an egalitarian polyamorist: no heirarchy, nobody has veto power over my relationships, but I still want a regular commitment of time and emotions to develop things deeper.

The situation ended up with something similar to yours: she kept wanting to have more independence, time for herself, explore other lovers, explore different aspects of her life; while I kept asking for more regularly scheduled time, feeling like she didn't care about me enough, all of that.

What ended up happening was I broke up with her, healed up for about 7 months, and now we are back together. I let go of the idea that my relationship with her was headed towards some kind of strong commitment for each other. I was able to let go of my expectation that she meet my needs. In order to have the relationship work, we basically had to meet at the lowest common denominator, which, in our case, was to not have any regularly scheduled weekly dates, let her go about her own life, and we would meet up when she had time or when she wanted to. We still love each other, are still super hot for each other, and she's busy doing her own things.

This freed up my time and emotional energy so I could start dating other people. Now I'm seeing someone who is much more compatible with me, on many more different levels. And this wouldn't have been possible if I kept spending my energy trying to change or fix my previous relationship to force it to be what I wanted it to be; I had to accept it for what it was.

So, my advice is:
- consider what it is you want from a relationship
- is that what you're getting out of this relationship? (I'm guessing not)
- what kind of relationship does she want?
- if what you want is not the same as what she wants, let it go.

"Letting it go" can come in many different forms:
- breaking up
- letting go of your expectation that she do what you want (and subsequently freeing yourself to go look for what you want)
- can you think of any other ways?

I hope this was useful for you. Please let me know your thoughts!
 
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The fact that you want to do something in a particular way doesn't automatically make that the objectively correct way to do it or require anyone else to agree to adopt your method. She prefers to run her life differently, and her preference is just as valid as yours.

If "I must be told first" is a hard boundary for you, and "I must have the freedom to be spontaneous" is a hard boundary for her, then you may be fundamentally incompatible. It's not simply a matter of one of you being right and the other being wrong.

Instead of trying to change her behaviour, why not look at the rules you want to enforce and work out if you really need them. Why do you feel the need to know every step of her dating life? What does that protect you from?
 
MightyMalthus said:
A few months into our relationship, she dealt with an issue between us by sleeping with someone she knew previously and not telling me about it until some days later
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Did she tell you about this sexual encounter before or after she had sex again with you?

MightyMalthus said:
Playing the cuckold is not something I ever agreed to, and it does not suit me in the slightest. Bear in mind that I have never sought to curb her appetites nor have I ever demanded that she ask my permission; what I seek is an open conversation and a clear understanding as to where things are headed.
Click to expand...

The 'cuckold' issue might be a bit of ego getting in your way. In my opinion that isn't going to do anything but cause problems.

Having said that, you want it the way you want it. If it's a boundary that is important to you, you'll need to make sure that is understood and take action if it is not respected. Or change your expectations about her respecting the boundary and embrace the new regime.
 
Marcus said:
Did she tell you about this sexual encounter before or after she had sex again with you?
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I was out of town when it happened so by the time I got back, yes, I knew. It might also be worth mentioning that after we talked through the original issue, she ended up dating him for about 6 weeks after that. I knew about it and while I was still nursing my pride, I was supportive of the journey. I was not that sorry to see him go, but I did my best to be positive about it.

I would have fewer problems with the cuckold aspect, but her disclosure about it was an active attempt on her part to wound me, and it worked. It was utterly humiliating. So yes, I'm absolutely sensitive to it, and while I agree that the male ego is a funny animal, I am dead set on not being put in that position again. If this situation had not originally happened, I doubt we would be having these issues, or at the very least I doubt I would feel as strongly about it.
 
Emm said:
The fact that you want to do something in a particular way doesn't automatically make that the objectively correct way to do it or require anyone else to agree to adopt your method. She prefers to run her life differently, and her preference is just as valid as yours.

If "I must be told first" is a hard boundary for you, and "I must have the freedom to be spontaneous" is a hard boundary for her, then you may be fundamentally incompatible. It's not simply a matter of one of you being right and the other being wrong.

Instead of trying to change her behaviour, why not look at the rules you want to enforce and work out if you really need them. Why do you feel the need to know every step of her dating life? What does that protect you from?
Click to expand...

Oh, I have no desire to know every aspect of her dating life. We are both independent people, and I am not in the habit of prying after gory details. Sometimes I'll ask certain things, absolutely, but that's wholly out of interest about her night. I have never asked to see her phone to scan messages or tried to catch her being deceptive. That's creepy. :) If anything, I give her great distance on those occasions I know she is spending time with someone; no calls, no texts etc, I don't intrude on that time at ALL. With every other aspect of this, I think I'm very understanding and patient.

And yes, you're right, I understand this is not about one of us being right and the other wrong. But as you may read from my other responses within this thread, my need for this transparency is born out of the desire to not have her interactions used as a weapon against me as they were initially. It's a way for me to feel safer within the relationship and a simple statement of intent on her part completely satisfies me.
 
I am sorry you struggle.

My view on this has been clear and consistent the entire time: she is free to pursue other relationships with the caveat that she proactively addresses it with me before any intimacy takes place.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify the timing... you mean you want her to tell you before she shares sex with Other Person?

Not her share sex with Other Person, and tell you she's been with other people before she next shares sex with you?

If you prefer to be told before, and she's not willing to tell until after and neither is willing to change on the timing? Then it sounds like you are fundamentally incompatible. That would be one issue.

her disclosure about it was an active attempt on her part to wound me
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my need for this transparency is born out of the desire to not have her interactions used as a weapon against me as they were initially
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That doesn't sound like loving behavior. :( That sounds like another issue.

The obvious result of this is that my trust in her has been utterly compromised.
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You also don't trust her. That's a third issue.

My view on this has been clear and consistent the entire time: she is free to pursue other relationships with the caveat that she proactively addresses it with me before any intimacy takes place. Her response to my reactions to these multiple breaches in protocol is either that I am just jealous or that my need for this transparency is unreasonable. The obvious result of this is that my trust in her has been utterly compromised.
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Seems like she's not going to change her behaviors. You could stop expecting her to meet your request. Also sounds like she's dinged you a few times. How many strikes before you decide to call it quits?

You might have to change your "staying" behavior since you don't want to practice this way or get into anything "cuckhold-y." It doesn't turn you on.

Normally, that would have been my cue for an immediate exit from the relationship, but I dug this chick and thought we might be able to get through it
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I don't see why you chose to "override" your own preferences. Next time don't go against your own grain -- no matter how much you dig the chick or think she's groovy. "Not compatible" is not going to suddenly become compatible just because you have a crush on the person. :(

I think in your shoes I would let this one go. You don't sound like you feel safe dating her, or like you have matching dating styles. Rather than keep trying to fly a kite that won't fly... it might be better to stop trying.

Galagirl
 
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MightyMalthus said:
I would have fewer problems with the cuckold aspect, but her disclosure about it was an active attempt on her part to wound me, and it worked.
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You actually believe that this person willfully brought you harm?

Whether or not you are actually correct, you *believe* you are correct, which means you don't trust this chick as far as you can throw her and you think that she is so emotionally fucked up as to actually go out of her way to hurt you.

I don't get it, why are you continuing to associate with this person? :rolleyes:
 
Nothing much to say. Your post is sound. You have nailed the problem. This is fundamental mismatch in expectations in how the relationship should be conducted. Neither is right or wrong, but unless a compromise is reached, you will keep feeling betrayed, because there is no realistic way to control what she does, if she doesn't want to act as you wish.

Downgrading definitely sounds like the bare minimum due. If you are less invested in her, you may have less of an issue with this. Perhaps you may not be able to handle it altogether. But at least to me it looks like status quo is one where you will keep hitting this rock over and over with each wave.

MightyMalthus said:
A few months into our relationship, she dealt with an issue between us by sleeping with someone she knew previously and not telling me about it until some days later.
Click to expand...

This is actually separate from the overall problem of mismatched expectations on how much information should be shared. Dealing with an issue between you by sleeping with someone else is a dysfunctional way of handling problems between the two of you, and this will need work indpendently addressing the problems more functionally.

Even if she is averse to disclosing her relationships to you before the fact, it should not prevent working on developing better handling of problems between the two of you. If you can achieve this, perhaps the mismatch will not be such a big issue.
 
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This seems to be less about transparency and more about an objection to weaponised cheating (from your PoV, since you weren't informed, and then get informed in a manner calculated to hurt)

I understand that a lot of people do hurtful things to get back at partners. I don't call it love, but I see relationships forgive and thrive regardless. Also may be worthwhile to see what it is she was getting back at you for, and see if it could be something that hurt her and left her without negotiable solutions between the two of you. This is not to say it happened. Also not to say what she did is right even if it happened. More like owning your side of the conflict and meeting her halfway to finding a way that these deliberate hurts don't happen again.
 
I love Qarzan's message. I thought it was really insightful and wise. Acceptance of what it is, of who we are and who the people we love are is a powerful thing.

Qarzan said:
I let go of the idea that my relationship with her was headed towards some kind of strong commitment for each other. I was able to let go of my expectation that she meet my needs
Click to expand...

Qarzan said:
And this wouldn't have been possible if I kept spending my energy trying to change or fix my previous relationship to force it to be what I wanted it to be; I had to accept it for what it was.
Click to expand...

Qarzan said:
"Letting it go" can come in many different forms:
- breaking up
- letting go of your expectation that she do what you want (and subsequently freeing yourself to go look for what you want)
- can you think of any other ways?
Click to expand...

Thanks, your words helped me too.
 
Hi MightyMalthus,

You say that you've been trying to discuss, with your person, for about a year so far, the transparency that you need. And I get the impression that your person has offered zero compliance with that need. You can't force her to do as you wish, so, you have to decide whether you're going to tolerate her behavior. If you can't tolerate it, then you have to break up with her. :(

With sympathy,
Kevin T.
 
Hi guys, sorry for the long delay in writing this response, life has a way of becoming a very needy primary. :)

To make a long story short, I've decided to end the relationship as soon as I get back home. Thank you all for your thoughts and well wishes, I appreciate your support and the time you took to express your views.

Onwards.
 
Sounds like you made the right call for you. I think that's a good thing. I wish you the best going forward.
 
I had a relationship where something similar happened.

In hindsight, things that contributed were:
- she has anxiety
- I have anxiety
- she has had a lot of dysfunctional relationships
- I have had a lot of people drop out of my life and do not at all trust people will stick around unless they *are* around, regularly, or we talk at least
- I'm very happy with my sexuality and feel no ties to anyone else's beyond my husband's
- I think she has mostly been judged for her sexuality and talks about how she wants to open up and be more free
- she avoids confrontations as much as possible
- I avoid confrontations until the worst case scenario is better than continuing to feel like shit.

Oh, and we don't in hindsight have very much in common. Like she actively hates some of the things I love, and vice versa. (Not judgmentally, just... not to our tastes.)

We had been dating around 18 months, and I started to feel like there was some distance. For maybe 6 months before that, I'd said that I felt like she didn't have much time for me, and that made me feel like she didn't really care about me. So she'd been trying. But it kind of tapered off.

And I was strongly considering becoming fluid bonded with her - but then I met several guys that she had dated once or twice, and she had mostly slept with them. She didn't tell me until weeks or months later.

Then there was a further wtf moment when I invited her to a party I have every year, and she asked if she could invite her girlfriend. And I was like.... you have a girlfriend? Oh. Okay, sure I guess. (She has never told me how she met this lady or how fast it was or how long they had been dating by then.)

And then I barely see her for the next 3 months. And she's always busy with work, or not feeling up to it. And I invite her over for dinner one evening, and she says sure... and she doesn't come until 10.30, when I tell her I need to go to bed at 11.30 at the latest. She eats the reheated food, I try not to be resentful that she chose to stay working late at a job she hates instead of spending time with me. We have sex, and then afterwards I tell her I love her... and I just feel right there in that moment, she doesn't love me anymore, and she's never going to say it back to me again.

So yeah, we broke up a few months later (I didn't see her at all in the meantime, and the breakup was a direct result of me asking if she actually wanted to spend time with me).

Because it would have screwed up a friend's party the next week, we talked it over maybe a week later.

She felt like I was judging her for having a higher sex drive. (I wasn't. It's just the truth. It was even something I *liked*, because I dislike initiating sex.) She felt like I wanted to control her when I wanted to know who else she was seeing. I didn't, I wanted to *share her life*. I wanted to know what made her happy, what was happening to her. She felt like I wanted to be on the relationship escalator, spend more and more and more time with her. I don't, and never did. I don't even want to spend so much time with my husband, who I live with. She was extremely surprised by that. She felt like I wanted to control her sexuality, tell her who she could and couldn't sleep with. And just... no.

Anyway, we broke up. We are kinda vague acquaintances now. We make out at orgies when we're both in the mood. I see her at kink munches but we don't talk much, although we have several mutual friends. I've seen her maybe 5 times in the last year since we broke up.
 
Ravenscroft said:
She is nonmonogamous, but comes up short in being polyamorous -- no particular interest in communicating readily & freely.
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That is all it is, really. And we get a LOT of people like that here! They are just serial daters, or people who like very short, very casual sexual hookups. They may be Don Juan Narcissists. They run for the hills at the first sign of conflict instead of working things out through proper respectful communication. They lose interest when NRE wanes, and are on to the next hit.

Non-monogamous? Sure. Polyamorous? Not a bit.
 
To clarify, I don't see anything wrong with serial monogamy or generalized nonmonogamy. It's simply where I don't choose to go.

And grouping those other options under "polyamory" seems only to add to confusion. I am a communication fiend -- it facilitates learning about myself, & about people very important to me. Without deep & free-flowing communication, at least in potential, it ain't polyamory.

That said, I don't need to be "kept in the loop" with every niggly little detail... but if something's bugging me, like I see a looming downside, I will do my best to ask well-considered questions, & I would like to receive answers as thorough as needs be.

Like, I had a lover with the recurring habit of intercourse "accidents" that set her to worrying obsessively about being pregnant. (Me, I'm a condom fanatic.) I mean, we're talking panic attacks, insomnia, problems at work, various physiological problems, random shouting, sobbing jags... the whole package.

When a guy who'd publicly sneered at condom use began love-bombing her -- which she found flattering :rolleyes: -- I asked whether they were using some sort of birth control.

Her response: "Well, I don't see where that's any of YOUR business!!"

Let's just say that I took a bit of a hiatus at that point. And sure enough, the next six months had no less than FOUR incidences of her calling me up at all hours, distraught, because "OMG!! my period is two days late!!!" Suddenly, I was "the only one" she could talk to about it. It got old very quickly, & I'm certain this became apparent in my voice.

(With her all to himself, he got bored & moved to California. I never mentioned it again, she was very contrite, & we started over.)

Did I need her to volunteer such info? No -- what I needed was her being willing to discuss something that worried me, to do so one-on-one, & to trust that I wasn't asking from meanness. Lacking that, I felt that our "poly" basis had ceased to exist... & I am polyamorous, period.
 
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