How to deal with being shamed by society's labels
- Thread starter TheExplorer
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vinsanity0
Active member
That little snippet you quoted was not in response to the OP. It was in response to CTF, who apparently does not believe there are repercussions for people who are out. But yes, there was a bit of shaming going on there.
There is a difference between having a different view and discriminating against someone who has a different view. Can you name a valid reason to discriminate against poly people?
TheExplorer
Member
I think the reason why people discriminate against poly people goes straight back to the bible based view that polyamory is simply a way to justify adultery. Of course in the poly world we accept it when all of the parties know and consent to what is going on. But for someone with this bible mindset, the practice of polyamory is a severe moral sin.
I consider myself polyamorous but also have my take on things. For example, I know a guy in an open relationship who could have sex with anyone even without any long term relationship plans. I personally wouldn't do this on my watch because it would feel way too dirty and impersonal for me. But at the same time, I wouldn't cast harsh judgement on him because I know he is one of the kindest and most thoughtful people I have ever met.
So it essentially comes down to what's been discussed here...people willing to acknowledge and accept lifestyles different from they would feel comfortable doing, vs. casting harsh judgement on people who do things differently.
vinsanity0
Active member
The beauty of the bible is that one can twist it to justify just about anything. I've seen compelling biblical arguments for poly. I don't think religious reasons are valid for discriminating against anyone. Unfortunately, most religions (especially Christianity) do not allow for their practitioners to accept other lifestyles. Doing so invalidates their own belief system.
TheExplorer
Member
Yes apparently the bible is loaded with examples of men having multiple wives (but not the other way around) and even men fighting wars and taking ladies as prizes...
Shaya
New member
I found it interesting that in some areas of the world, a man can legally have multiple wives, but the reverse (a woman having multiple husbands) is legal no where in the world.
Funny though, we seem to have come to a consensus that MFM poly is more likely to work than FMF poly. Seems a shame MFM isn't legal given its relative stability.
Funny though, we seem to have come to a consensus that MFM poly is more likely to work than FMF poly. Seems a shame MFM isn't legal given its relative stability.
I didn't dismiss those circumstances, I've always acknowledged that friends & family came & do often have negative reactions... that, however, has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Dealing with a judgmental friend does not mean that society is judging & labeling you. One, two, or even a handful of people in your immediate circle, is not the definition of "society".
And that little "snippet" only proves that you really didn't pay attention to what I said... Nowhere did I say, or even imply that there were no repercussions for people who were out. I do think that this assertion that it's so prevalent is heavily over exaggerated. And the fact that you felt the need to put words into my mouth, rather than cite some evidence that there really was this widespread shaming & name calling that was asserted by the OP, sort of demonstrates that. Is there a bit of shaming out there? Of course... the operative phrase there, being "a bit", as it's clear that there are very few reported incidents to prove otherwise. Speculation of what "could" happen is not proof that it IS happening. Honestly, it's way too common nowadays for people to claim discrimination against anyone who disagrees. Have you ever lost a job, or been denied a mortgage? If not, then it's really not discriminating
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Emm
Stealth Mod
CTF, you're demanding evidence of some sort of organised action which nobody else has claimed exists. "Society" doesn't have an annual meeting at which it decides what to disapprove of for the next 12 months and then send out minutes reminding everyone about who gets to discriminate against whom. Societal disapproval is made up of the actions of individuals, each of whom have their own reasons for behaving in the way they do.
First of all, I'm not "demanding" anything. I asked for examples of "societal shaming/labeling" that many- including the OP- seem to indicate are so common. I asked for these because of the claims don't seem to match reality.
As for societal disapproval... you're partly right. Society is, however, the collective consensus of the majority. The stories of friends & family shunning are completely irrelevant to "society". Anecdotal evidence & society don't even belong in the same sentence as one another.
Spork
Active member
And this comes right back to my point that, until open polyamory is as common as, say, openly belonging to some other sort of a minority, you won't get the sort of institutionalized discrimination against it that is the question of the thread.
When being gay was a dirty secret and not an openly lived identity for many people, you could say, "there is no discrimination"...sure, a majority had their opinions, but since they didn't have brave targets walking around to sling real life consequences at, it wasn't a big deal, right?
But as homosexuality became more of a public reality, the questions arose such as whether it is a thing you are born, or a thing you choose. I imagine that many who asked those things, with an eye towards fixing what they saw to be an aberration, either through some kind of reprogramming like these abominable conversion camps, or through maybe medical treatment or genetic therapy if indeed it is biological... Ah, but in time, many, especially in more progressive areas, have come to decide that there is nothing wrong to be fixed. And I do think that shifts in "majority" thinking (as compared, say, to the mindsets of the 1950s or prior) will help other groups such as the polyamorous, be treated fairly. If most people believe that your love life is your own business and has no bearing on other aspects of how you should be treated, well, that is all to the good, right? But there are still plenty of right wing pundits out there aghast that "consenting adults" is the standard. Who would pontificate to the masses that this is not a godly way, that marriage is between ONE man and ONE woman, and anything other than that is against God, nature and all that is good.
And so it becomes a matter of politics.
And if ever polyamorists come "out" en masse, as gay people have fought to do, and threaten the safe little worldviews of the narrow minded, by demanding to be acknowledged as living valid lives, then I expect there will be a certain amount of possible backlash, and some politics will start to flare up about it. People will talk more about whether it is "born that way" or a choice, as though that even matters. The more progressive will shrug and ask, "who cares?"
Until this administration, I honestly thought that the United States was happily marching towards more socially liberal attitudes, with gay marriage being more widely accepted, and the pot laws being relaxed...a more general state of freedom for people to choose their paths, so long as they aren't harming others. That these mindsets were gaining ground. But it's not just the great orange arse that concerns me, our entire government is now dominated by the right.
I guess it is worthwhile to ask... Let us use the gay comparison here, if you are a gay man in a rural Bible Belt town, and you don't dare come out because you know how people talk, and you know how violently they can react to things they don't approve of, and you'd rather not be beaten or killed...or let us say you would be transgendered, if only you did not live in a place where just a few months ago they murdered the last person who contemplated transitioning... If you choose to not put your life in danger, and so hide or suppress yourself deep into a closet in order to be safe...
Does that mean that there is no discrimination?
Does a troll exist on the internet even if you don't feed him?
And again full circle, I would argue that there are some dangers that a reasonable person can intuit about the world around them, without necessarily having seen the reality come full to fruit. I have never seen a train run over a human being before, but I still won't fool around on the tracks.
If you're in a place where you look around you, and the people you know are fairly intelligent, openminded folk, who don't mind others being different so long as they aren't being harmed or affected, and who would likely be fine with a poly family living next door, then COUNT YOURSELF LUCKY. Because there are still plenty of places in the US where that just is not the case. I have seen enough discrimination and ignorance aimed at plenty of other kinds of diverse people who happened to not be cis-het-whitebread-normalsauce in some way, that I don't really feel a need for statistical proof. And what you think of, when you hear "society" is gonna have a lot to do with what flavor of society is walking around in your immediate environment. If you think that the residents of middle-of-nowhere Arkansas, or Missouri, or Kentucky are going to be as accepting and non-discriminatory as the population of California, or more to the the point, the Pacific Northwest for instance, you will be sorely mistaken.
Again, we're debating two entirely different points here. Since it seems to have been overlooked, I'll say it again. I'm not advocating that anyone "come out" if they have reason to believe it'll be negatively received by those they need to get along with. Hell, you might recall that I was the one suggesting that coming out to your spouse may not be the greatest idea of you feel there's a chance it could end your marriage/relationship.
The problem is, that there is this assertion that there's this widespread hatred/discrimination against poly folk. And the thread itself didn't ask the question, I DID. The OP merely made the claim that name calling & judging is commonplace. I was the one who challenged it by asking for examples/evidence. And I'm sorry, but having the closed minded friend who lectures you is not evidence of societal shaming.
And to compare it with the plight of homosexuality is a bit nuts. The reasons there was less chatter in the past is because there was widespread evidence of people being killed.
Now, I've never claimed that there was no discrimination. I have, however, questioned how much actual discrimination is actually taking place.
Spork
Active member
I've reached a point where I've said everything that I can to make my point in the back and forth between us, CTF...I'm personally resetting to address the OP.
First of all I would say that given what I've seen in this forum and in my real life poly community, people are far more worried about managing the internal issues of trying to have multiple relationships. Most of the troubled posters here are more concerned with that.
But I will take YOU at your position that even if that part were going ok, you feel that the external stuff would still be an issue for you.
And I agree personally in that I feel that there are segments of society, probably depending on your geographical location (different parts of the US, even if we aren't talking globally, which is another whole thing, since this IS an international forum) where judgmental comments, rude looks, or worse, are probable.
I see it as having two main choices... Either you stay in the closet, or you deal with whatever may happen to you if you choose to be open about your poly. Only you can judge what results are likely, based on your situation and the other human beings around you. Just like in another thread about how to go about coming out, there is something of a spectrum between the two. You can be fully closeted, or fully out, or you can try to manage what social circles you are out to, and which you aren't.
I've seen and heard about people losing family ties with family members who were not understanding. I am fortunate, my family is so used to me being weird, they only say, "Well...as long as you're happy." It is easy for me to envision someone being judged harshly by the communities around them, if they lived in more conservative areas. I am lucky. Despite our reputation for being conservative here in Colorado Springs, I haven't seen a lot of that. Most people I know are either supportive and interested, or at least say, "Well, it would not be for me, but whatever floats your boat, I guess." The very few people who have been judgmental about my poly, or my BDSM activities, have been ones that I could easily do without, in my social life, and in no position to leverage any negative consequences against me, or did not see fit to do so. (My ex was VERY judgmental of poly, but did not see fit to make an issue of it in court, lest he be saddled with the task of raising both of our kids, which he didn't want.)
Which brings me back to YOUR story... If you do not feel strong enough to stand under the possibly judgmental gazes of those around you, then you'll want to either keep your poly life a secret, or else surround yourself with less judgmental people. They are out there, though I cannot speak to your odds in the area where you live.
starlight1
Active member
I cannot say much about my particular circumstance because I was in court with my kids, and the protection around that. But poly can and was used as a way to stop me from having my kids. This was in the UK.
I said fuck it, and stuck it to the man knowing i'd most likely lose my kids but at that point being so sick of being controlled in non-poly ways about my life with the UK, that I was very very much at breaking point with the whole thing.
Now I practice undercover because where I live is some liberal some conservative. I also care about the people involved and what happens for their social circles and life building etc. I wish we could all be open without societal pressure or consequence but the truth is all choices have a consequence.
When I chose to dye my hair black and wear rocker chick clothing, I was treated vastly different in airports due to social profiling than when I dressed conservative with honey blonde hair.
Consequences abound everywhere and to act like they don't is naïve.
I said fuck it, and stuck it to the man knowing i'd most likely lose my kids but at that point being so sick of being controlled in non-poly ways about my life with the UK, that I was very very much at breaking point with the whole thing.
Now I practice undercover because where I live is some liberal some conservative. I also care about the people involved and what happens for their social circles and life building etc. I wish we could all be open without societal pressure or consequence but the truth is all choices have a consequence.
When I chose to dye my hair black and wear rocker chick clothing, I was treated vastly different in airports due to social profiling than when I dressed conservative with honey blonde hair.
Consequences abound everywhere and to act like they don't is naïve.
