Mono needing advice

[CTF]

I'll agree to disagree with you, too. I have only the laboratory of my own life to go on and in my experience, relationships go much, much, much better and significant transitions go much, much, much more smoothly and harmoniously when the partners turn away from the blame-guilt or perpetrator-victim model of conflict and instead embrace a generous, compassionate spirit of "we did this together." In all of my years, I have never observed or been involved in a one sided intimacy that was truly a genuine intimacy.

Of course relationships go better in those cases, but that wasn't what I was getting at. Whether one partner feels like a victim or not, doesn't change whether or not they are victims. Some can put the blame, anger and hurt aside & move on, but that doesn't in any way mean that they share a responsibility for what their partner did to them.

And what about the cases where some never considered poly for their entire lives, and thus, never considered it to be who they were. Then one day, they discover it, and can identify as such in an extremely short period of time? Kind of like discovering a food you never even heard of, and now it's your favoraften just one bite... Happy mono, intimate couple, and it all gets unraveled in a month... no trouble brewing, just an immediate self discovery that takes your partner by surprise.

 

[dingedheart]

I didn't sit my husband down and drop a bomb so much as I spilled my guts one day after about a week of sitting on how I would tell him that I needed to open the marriage. Another man (whom I met in the PTA) had begun to show interest in me and in the beginning, I chuckled about this with my husband. He and I always had an emotional intimacy and so including him on the fun was just part of an overall closeness that we shared. I figured it was a passing flirtation, but the mutual feelings blossomed. I had always been open to the concept of a non-monogamous marriage, but my conservative husband would affectionately laugh at the thought. Very soon after the mutual feelings developed with PTA Dad, my husband sensed something was different and he asked me about it. That's when I had a difficult talk with him about my need for us to seriously consider poly. I don't know how people cheat because for me, it wasn't physically possible to sit on this secret for very long - maybe it was a week. I wasn't driven by guilt or ethics or anything other than I just couldn't contain such a secret. It didn't fit at all with the kind of relationship that my husband and I had - and though he didn't have words until we talked about it, he could feel that something was very different.

We bumbled our way through a year of poly, but ultimately it was not something that fit with our relationship. Of course, he had feelings of anger, but not really betrayal because he could see how my wanting additional partners was an extension of who he'd always known me to be - the experimental, questioning traveler. Likewise, I owned up to having chosen a conservative, ultra stable tenured college professor as my mate. Neither of us blamed the other for being who we'd always been and as we worked our way toward what was once unthinkable - separation - we did it with care. He did feel angry for a few months, but I didn't sink into guilt and instead let him have his distance. I think that anger is part of intimacy at times, as is fear and other negative emotions, but in a genuinely intimate relationship these feelings move through fairly quickly. Even as we were separating - and some days it was painfully so - we were intimately connected. It's no surprise to me that my husband found a wonderful new parter soon after moving out. She is a lovely woman and much better suited to his monogamous, stable, traditional preferences. My husband was an enormous stabilizing presence that I needed for creating a family, but I was never a "plant my flag forever" kind of person and when I suggested poly in our marriage, part of him was angry for sure but the bigger part of him was not surprised at all.

We're almost officially uncoupled now and ours is by far the happiest divorce I know. He's over here almost every day that he is not with his GF, who lives about five hours away. Many days, our kids are off doing their own things and it's him and me hanging out with the dogs. He's had his own place during the separation, but we kept the kids here and didn't do the typical "dad's place/mom's place" back and forth. The initial plan was for me to let him have his time here with them while I overnighted in his apartment, but my leaving the house during his visits was never really necessary. His GF has been here a few times, once for Thanksgiving, and it's not a breeze for me having her here, but my husband and I talk about it and are finding our way. I've dated this whole time and he's gotten to the point where he gives me very helpful relationship advice. We've even given feedback about the experience of being married to the other, which is enormously helpful going forward in our subsequent relationships.


So, yeah, there have been some mammoth changes and some pretty intense feelings, but no, none of this came out of the blue.

Last sentence is sort of key here .....sort of yes and no. He didn't see it coming but it wasn't incredibly shocking either.

So what was the anger about ? I was anger at the loss of time and money....my investment if you will. I remember think I'd really like the cost of her ring and the wedding back...and then the time machine to get back all those yrs.


I'm still interested how a struggling mono stays on there side of the street.

And also the comment about the poly bomb not changing relationships, to me that's a new concept and worth looking into with fresh eyes.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I'm still interested how a struggling mono stays on there side of the street.

Each person stays on his side of the street in a healthy relationship. You don't need to let things go so far as to be an addict or a codependent or a struggling mono before you learn this very important element of intimacy, which we're talking about here: Disentanglement or loving detachment, as it's called in recovery-speak. Seeming "bombs" like the poly-bomb, an affair, etc. often serve to allow the partners to be separate in a relationship in which there has been a lot of enmeshment. Enmeshment and intimacy feel one and the same to someone who's been raised in a codependent family and more often than not, goes on to repeat these patterns in his own romantic relationships. But they are, in fact, very different. For someone who was not raised with emotionally healthy parents modeling healthy boundaries and healthy communication (like most of us!) healthy intimacy must be consciously learned. Many of us (like me) don't realize that we need to learn how to have true intimacy until after we have failed miserably at what we thought was an intimate relationship. This "failure" can be the greatest blessing of our lives, for it can bring us face to face with ourselves and if we make use of this opportunity, can show exactly where treasure lies if we dig deep enough.

And also the comment about the poly bomb not changing relationships, to me that's a new concept and worth looking into with fresh eyes.

When one partner introduces the need for "more" in a relationship, what unfolds has everything to do with what has gone before. Some couples heartily embrace the emotional challenge and changes, whether they remain a romantic duo or not. Some couples are indeed "blown apart," but the experience will always come out of how the couple have been relating as a couple all along.

 

[Marcus]

Enmeshment and intimacy feel one and the same to someone who's been raised in a codependent family and more often than not, goes on to repeat these patterns in his own romantic relationships. But they are, in fact, very different.

I have really enjoyed this back and forth because it has prompted you to thoroughly explain the fundamentals of a healthy approach to relating to other people. It's been a fantastic read and I appreciate you taking the time to write it all out. I hope that everyone takes a moment to read through what you've said and then internalizes it.

You are on POINT with this concept!

 

[dingedheart]

I have really enjoyed this back and forth because it has prompted you to thoroughly explain the fundamentals of a healthy approach to relating to other people. It's been a fantastic read and I appreciate you taking the time to write it all out. I hope that everyone takes a moment to read through what you've said and then internalizes it.

You are on POINT with this concept!

I agree and I've enjoyed having a small part in this. I think it's really good to hear from different sides of the fence. I wonder if it would be helpful for lurkers that happen to find themselves in a mono marriage and are planning to announce the suggestion of opening up to their spouse if they first start a program of disentanglement? Spend 6 months actively doing that and then drop the bomb / spill your guts.

 

[BathedInSalt]

This thread has been really helpful to me as Newbie/semi-lurker.

 

[Marcus]

I wonder if it would be helpful for lurkers that happen to find themselves in a mono marriage and are planning to announce the suggestion of opening up to their spouse if they first start a program of disentanglement? Spend 6 months actively doing that and then drop the bomb / spill your guts.

Personally I think steps 1-3 of that Disentanglement article are basic relationship maintenance; some version of this is probably going to exist in any healthy adult relationship. Waiting until there is a potential catastrophe around the corner to start thinking about whether or not we are hopelessly enmeshed and how to break free from it is a bummer of a way to approach relating to a loved one.

But sure, regardless of the kind the association has been thus far, it's never to late to work free from this kind of codependent coupling. Might as well start now!

Note: I'm not putting that article down at all. I actually enjoyed hearing it put clearly into words, I just think it's wasteful to look at it as an impending crisis solution.

 

[dingedheart]

Each person stays on his side of the street in a healthy relationship. You don't need to let things go so far as to be an addict or a codependent or a struggling mono before you learn this very important element of intimacy, which we're talking about here:

I trying to plug what you're saying into my experience and maybe that's where I'm having a problem. I believe I was staying on my side of the street before the poly bomb and with in reason after.
Demotion, displacement, and intrusion have been identified as 3 universal affects when there is a surprised move to open up a marriage. Let's table the enmeshment part for a second. Whatever level of intimacy you had demotion occurs, displacement is felt and if there's any level of openness and honesty there is going to be intrusion or intrusions. All that came to your side of the street. As the old expression I was on my side of the street minding my own. Business and then this happened. Now to your point add crippling codependence or enmeshment and you're half way to poly hell. I believe the women responsible for the coining poly hell talks about NRE fogged behaviors that exaggerate these already brewing feeling and how not to make the situation worse. It's been a long long time since I read her article but I don't recall her suggesting that the people who find themselves in poly hell have screwed up expectations or are codependent assholes operating on their partners side of the street.

Disentanglement or loving detachment, as it's called in recovery-speak. Seeming "bombs" like the poly-bomb, an affair, etc. often serve to allow the partners to be separate in a relationship in which there has been a lot of enmeshment. Enmeshment and intimacy feel one and the same to someone who's been raised in a codependent family and more often than not, goes on to repeat these patterns in his own romantic relationships. But they are, in fact, very different. For someone who was not raised with emotionally healthy parents modeling healthy boundaries and healthy communication (like most of us!) healthy intimacy must be consciously learned. Many of us (like me) don't realize that we need to learn how to have true intimacy until after we have failed miserably at what we thought was an intimate relationship. This "failure" can be the greatest blessing of our lives, for it can bring us face to face with ourselves and if we make use of this opportunity, can show exactly where treasure lies if we dig deep enough.

Again going back my early days I/ we had very separate lives not really enmeshed. Both of us had loads of outside interests and activities.

When one partner introduces the need for "more" in a relationship, what unfolds has everything to do with what has gone before. Some couples heartily embrace the emotional challenge and changes, whether they remain a romantic duo or not. Some couples are indeed "blown apart," but the experience will always come out of how the couple have been relating as a couple all along.

In my/ our case ( what I've been told) what has gone before actually some of those issues predate ME. But that aside after that decision was made she either couldn't see through the NRE fog OR because of what had gone before in our marriage she didn't care. Or a combo of both.

 

[FallenAngelina]

I believe the women responsible for the coining poly hell talks about NRE fogged behaviors that exaggerate these already brewing feeling and how not to make the situation worse. It's been a long long time since I read her article but I don't recall her suggesting that the people who find themselves in poly hell have screwed up expectations or are codependent assholes operating on their partners side of the street.

People who develop codependent thinking are not assholes, but likely were raised in homes where their own ideas, needs, desires and feelings were rendered invisible and submitted to the ideas, needs, desires and feelings of their parents or caretakers. Codependent thinkers usually are doing the best they can, but don't feel that their life is their own. I doubt very much that Kathy Labriola specifically refers to codependent thinking in her articles about poly hell, but that kind of thinking is quite apparent here and on every forum in which relationships are discussed. Certainly, not every single person in poly hell is interacting in a codependent way, but many are. Awareness of this phenomenon can be enormously helpful for a person (like me) who recognizes herself in some of the thinking patterns and wants to change into a person who has a much more joyful experience in life.

From:
Codependent or Simply Dependent: What’s the Big Difference?

How might codependents be characterized?

Their self-esteem depends on the validation of others (i.e., they can’t self-validate or, independently, approve of themselves).
Their (fragile) sense of self-worth and well-being is extremely vulnerable, making them highly sensitive and reactive to others.
Their ability to assert their needs in a relationship (and, assuming they’re in a committed one, not just with their partner but with others as well) is highly constrained. And if they do assert them, they’re likely to feel guilty afterwards.
Their sense of responsibility centers more on the other person’s feelings, needs, wants, and desires than on their own. Consequently, others’ attitudes, actions and reactions typically govern what they say and do.
Their basic ability to set boundaries with others—and possibly others' requests of, or demands on them—is highly restricted (as it was originally with their intrusive parents, who regularly “used” them to compensate for the nurturing they themselves never received from their caretakers).
Their behavior is largely dictated by an underlying fear of being alone, and so feeling abandoned, spurned, or rejected.
Their feelings are experienced as less their own than tied to another’s behavior.
Their sense of themselves in situations of discord is that they’re victims, unable to be heard, sympathized with, or understood.
Their (compulsive?) loyalty to others can go substantially beyond what’s warranted, and may end up hurting them.
Their personal values are second-guessed, sacrificed, or ignored when they conflict with another’s. To protect a relationship, they’re actually ready to forfeit their own integrity.

Yet codependents—and this is one of the most fascinating aspects of their character—may not, outwardly, look dependent. That is, they can disguise, even beyond recognition, their urgent reliance on others to confirm their fundamental worth. How? By saying and doing things that make them seem quite in command, even controlling. Having learned in childhood to please and placate their parents, most of them can be "managerial" with others, and in ways that convey a contrary message about themselves.

 

[dingedheart]

Personally I think steps 1-3 of that Disentanglement article are basic relationship maintenance; some version of this is probably going to exist in any healthy adult relationship. Waiting until there is a potential catastrophe around the corner to start thinking about whether or not we are hopelessly enmeshed and how to break free from it is a bummer of a way to approach relating to a loved one.

But sure, regardless of the kind the association has been thus far, it's never to late to work free from this kind of codependent coupling. Might as well start now!

Note: I'm not putting that article down at all. I actually enjoyed hearing it put clearly into words, I just think it's wasteful to look at it as an impending crisis solution.

That's a really good point but couldn't this take us back a step further as to how and why someone in a mono marriage might be pushing /requesting for an open marriage. The jackets too tight ....almost feels like a straight jacket the reflextive fix is poly. What faster way of disentanglement than to start parallel romantic relationships ....time splits ....dates/ romantic time by appointment.

 

[dingedheart]

People who develop codependent thinking are not assholes,

They are around here . If there's even a whiff of codependence things get nasty quickly.

I doubt very much that Kathy Labriola specifically refers to codependent thinking in her articles about poly hell, but that kind of thinking is quite apparent here and on every forum in which relationships are discussed. Certainly, not every single person in poly hell is interacting in a codependent way, but many are.

Thanks for putting her name in here I can never remember the spelling of her last name and I don't want to screw it up. Seems odd that with all her experience counseling couples that codependence wouldn't have got a mention in that article. If she out there maybe she could jump into this discussion .

From:
Codependent or Simply Dependent: What’s the Big Difference?

How might codependents be characterized?

Their self-esteem depends on the validation of others (i.e., they can’t self-validate or, independently, approve of themselves).
Their (fragile) sense of self-worth and well-being is extremely vulnerable, making them highly sensitive and reactive to others.
Their ability to assert their needs in a relationship (and, assuming they’re in a committed one, not just with their partner but with others as well) is highly constrained. And if they do assert them, they’re likely to feel guilty afterwards.
Their sense of responsibility centers more on the other person’s feelings, needs, wants, and desires than on their own. Consequently, others’ attitudes, actions and reactions typically govern what they say and do.
Their basic ability to set boundaries with others—and possibly others' requests of, or demands on them—is highly restricted (as it was originally with their intrusive parents, who regularly “used” them to compensate for the nurturing they themselves never received from their caretakers).
Their behavior is largely dictated by an underlying fear of being alone, and so feeling abandoned, spurned, or rejected.
Their feelings are experienced as less their own than tied to another’s behavior.
Their sense of themselves in situations of discord is that they’re victims, unable to be heard, sympathized with, or understood.
Their (compulsive?) loyalty to others can go substantially beyond what’s warranted, and may end up hurting them.
Their personal values are second-guessed, sacrificed, or ignored when they conflict with another’s. To protect a relationship, they’re actually ready to forfeit their own integrity.

Yet codependents—and this is one of the most fascinating aspects of their character—may not, outwardly, look dependent. That is, they can disguise, even beyond recognition, their urgent reliance on others to confirm their fundamental worth. How? By saying and doing things that make them seem quite in command, even controlling. Having learned in childhood to please and placate their parents, most of them can be "managerial" with others, and in ways that convey a contrary message about themselves.

I look at this list and 1,2,4,6,8 and triple star number 8 applies to my then wife not me. I don't think I'm being stubborn or a dick but I just don't identify with anything on the list. This is one of those few instances were I wish I had enough contact with her to ask her what her take is on this list and if she thinks anything on this list applies to me. Sadly I prefer not to open that door because I don't want hear how shitty her life is. Nonetheless isn't this the opposite of what you're suggesting ? And could codependence be a motivating factor in wanting poly relationships ?

 

[GalaGirl]

And could codependence be a motivating factor in wanting poly relationships ?

I think it is possible. I knew a woman who wanted to do poly so she'd have "extra back ups" around should one partner fail to prop her up. I wouldn't call that healthy relating. But I guess she was being honest about what she wanted.

I thought a healthier approach could be to work on herself and become able to self validate and then not need others to validate her.

Then she could be in relationships because she wanted to be with certain people. Because she appreciated them for THEM.

Not because she needed them to do certain things for her.

Galagirl

 

[Ravenscroft]

This is another area where I have difficulty "putting myself in their shoes," though I do try. I've had people suggest that there's something wrong with me because I don't seek validation from others.

Sure, when I'm learning something new (music, mechanic stuff, whatever), I've learned to ask for demonstration & to have my first attempts briefly critiqued, because I thereby learn faster & better.

But outright praise makes me twitchy; heavens, why would I want to seek for it? When I was in a band in 1979, we played a town where I had a few friends. After the first set, one guy ran up to the stage, raved about how GREAT we were (really, we weren't ) & tried for handshakes all around. I found it creepy. Meanwhile, I glanced over at another friend, who simply grinned & gave me a thumbs-up -- now THAT made me feel good.

 

[FallenAngelina]

Nonetheless isn't this the opposite of what you're suggesting ?

Really, the basic point I'm suggesting is that taking blame-guilt and victim-perpetrator out of one's relationship thinking makes for a much happier life all around. It's one of the first things people learn to heave overboard when they start learning how to allow genuine intimacy into their lives. Alcoholics, addicts and codependents merely take to the extreme what many of us were taught and that is to look to others for validation and guidance in how we "should" feel. Any time that we are worried what someone thinks of us, fearful that someone doesn't love us enough or the right way, resentful of another's "disloyalty," (to name only a few indicators,) we are venturing into codependent territory and therein setting ourselves up for a whole lotta turmoil. Learning to fill ourselves up (emotionally and spiritually) and recognizing our constant participation in how our relationships evolve, whether we are pleased with the unfolding or not, is called staying on our side of the street. It's a mindset of emotional generosity, a spirit of loving detachment and a foundational aspect of all truly intimate relationships.

 

[Shaya]

My message is to Elle, whom I'm not sure if the specifics of the last few pages would have been interesting to her as a new member with a specific life crisis. I'd like to extend some empathy to you, Elle.

For what it's worth, I thought your opening post was going for humor and i thought you did it well. You sound mature, intelligent and well-grounded. I find it hard to imagine anyone with that level of insight to willingly want to engage in a parent-child dynamic with their partner. To me, your husband did some stupid things and you tried to make light of it. If you're telling him off in a manner reminiscent of the way you'd scold someone who ought to know better, well, that's because he's acting like a horny teenager who is finding that polyamory means that the world is suddenly an open oyster. Maybe some people are like that when they have resigned themselves to one sexual partner for life only to suddenly realise that polyamory ethically opens them to a whole world they can potentially fuck. I can imagine that being exciting, though I can't imagine losing my job over it or having unprotected sex and hiding that fact for a month. Unprotected sex can kill you.

Like you said. Stupid. Be angry with him. He's not behaving as a responsible adult. Am I encouraging you to keep him in the dog house forever or to ignore introspection regarding any potential role of yours in the matters leading up to these events? No, and my expectation is that a mature and intelligent adult like you wouldn't do that.

Your specific question is can you close your relationship? I'd say temporarily yes, if he has no active romantic interests that would be hurt in the process and he agrees, because I feel that you need him to prove he can be a responsible husband first and a playboy second. I feel you need him to prove to you that polyamory is not just a way for him to ethically enjoy a sex or dating addiction (besides, he falls short ethically in the way he's doing it anyway). I say temporarily because I don't feel he will agree to be in the dog house forever, and because I feel that an ethical monogamy should make allowances for renegotiation as the situation and the people in it change over time. But that's just my view on monogamy and I'm certain there are many other equally valid views.

As for 'senior members' on this forum who have closed their relationship? Myself, Anamikanon and powerpuffgrl1969 are in closed monogamous relationships i think. A few others are perhaps temporarily monogamous but not closed. Others are polyfidelitous and closed. All, i think, are open for renegotiation at either an approximate set time in future or if the situation changes. I think. Not sure. 'All' is a big claim.

Welcome to the forum, I hope you stay. I like your humor.

-Shaya.