DeepBlue on her path...

[CTF]

This entire thread strikes me as a bunch of blame-the-victim nonsense: Is polyamory tearing your relationship apart and ruining your life? It's your own fault because you don't handle arguments well!

Devastated by a betrayal? Maybe you should think about what you contributed to the situation! Maybe you brought it on yourself!

As I say, nonsense.

Thing is, it's not about one argument or one betrayal. It's the slow erosion from the constant drip of hard choices and bad compromises that become inevitable when trying to maintain more than one serious commitment outside the bounds of any established institutions.

Blame the victim? Do you not see the irony in that statement? Someone who poly bombs their spouse is not a victim of anything. Clearly, the communication problems are just as much their doing as it is their partner's. And falling in love with someone else because they want their "needs met" doesn't make them any less guilty than the partner who sleeps with a coworker because he/she flirts with them.

Now, it's true, sometimes it's not about one argument or betrayal, but sometimes it IS. Sometimes the one argument or betrayal is so massive that it's impossible to overcome. And to a firmly mono spouse, poly is that huge.

 

[dingedheart]

Still, it's an interesting and valid point. From DeepBlue's writing here on this thread I didn't realize they had already agreed on divorce (it has been stated elsewhere - did you, or not?) If you're already in the divorcing process, then yes, partners will probably be less accommodating.

From her other thread ( http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89565 ) in which she discussed her husband's stance, and them reaching agreements on a post-nup, and working on child custody, it seems to me they are actively in the process of disbanding, or at least prepping for it. But you're right, nowhere has she stated either of them have formally filed papers to that effect.

I'm not sure it's a hardening of the heart as much as seeing things for what they are. The dynamic has changed. Elements of demotion, displacement, intrusion have been introduced. And now for her to be upset or stressed at some guests visiting might seem silly to him.

When I read this I had the memory of my wife's reaction when I retired wearing my wedding ring. One day she said, "I notice you're not wearing your wedding ring. Did you lose it?" "No, not at all. I retired it." That triggered a very emotional (tears) strange reaction from her. Really nothing to do with hardening of the heart. It was not to do with the terms and conditions on which those rings were exchanged. Sorry you're melting down over this, but I don't care.

As for the topic of the thread I can't think of many fights, arguments, discussions pre-poly that I thought would result in damage to the relationship which would then need repair. I was raised in a family that had strong opinions, and loud discussions, and everyone was free to disagree and still be loved and respected. After some cooling off and reflection, maybe an apology or 2 was needed, and then life moves on.

I don't know if I'm splitting hairs here or not.

And with this mindset, it should be noted I'm not married anymore, too. So there is that.

 

[Tinwen]

...

In DeepBlue's case, somewhere in this thread she stated that the fights started after her daughter was born, not with poly. So that's why I think you may be exaggerating poly's influence a little. But of course a poly/divorce changing dynamics could lead to an escalation now.

 

[dingedheart]

In DeepBlue's case, somewhere in this thread she stated that the fights started after her daughter was born, not with poly. So that's why I think you may be exaggerating poly's influence a little. But of course a poly/divorce changing dynamics could lead to an escalation now.

I'm not trying to exaggerate. In fact, I could be completely wrong. I was just trying to give you an alternative idea as to why something such as this became such a big deal. It's just something to keep in the back of mind.

And I missed the part where this could have happened yrs ago. I was under the impression this was something out of the ordinary in terms of the level of blind stubbornness.

 

[Emm]

At DeepBlue's request I've moved a large chunk of the posts regarding her situation here from the relationship repair quiz thread. If I've moved one of your posts which you believe should remain where it was, please flag it using the "report post" icon

at the top right and I'll move it back.

 

[DeepBlue]

Thank you, Emm!

And thank you, GalaGirl, I really appreciate your posts in general. You have that gift to make me see things very clearly. I will try to respond to some points later.

And no, my husband and I have not filed for divorce, yet.

We have tried to sort out our finances. We haven't figured out anything else yet.

The fighting got a lot worse after our daughter was born, not after I told my husband I wanted to do poly. But he is stressed about poly. He feels insecure. And that probably did influence the argument we had about the visitors. But we have fought just as badly, before. We are good at many things, but we are horrible at solving conflicts. I am really bad at it.

 

[DeepBlue]

Days over something so simple to solve?

I get that you were asking him for help in solving a stressful problem, but if he's just being no use and doing circular conversations, you could accept sooner that he's no help at all, and stop having that conversation, not keep it going for days building grudges.

Just move on and solve your stress yourself.

You could have called his relative sooner if they could reschedule. There. You solved your own stress.

Yes, I could and probably should have solved my stress problem all by myself. Doing exactly that: solving problems by myself (problems where I had the expectation that my husband would contribute to the solution) is something I have grown accustomed to over the years of this relationship. It is the easy way with him, in general.

I was okay with that most of the time, as long as it concerned only me. Since our daughter has been born, that has changed. I am no longer willing to behave as if I am single while I am not single. Also, I am not willing to let go of this relationship. That's why we fight. (But I should probably pick my fights wiser.)

Or followed through, and gone to the hotel, if you can afford it. Take a mini break, enjoy room service, swim in the hotel pool, and not deal with visiting relatives. Solve your stress that way.

I loved reading that suggestion, and I regret that I didn't do it.

Why not take the argument break? You seem to keep it going.

If you still will feel the same tomorrow, then feel the same tomorrow, but with a break.

I feel bad about being ignored in my needs. It is something that makes me feel like I need to get out of this relationship. And I did not want to carry that feeling for days. (I ended up doing it, nevertheless. But that's why.)

I don't know why you suggested going to a hotel if that was not something you were actually willing to do. You could offer things you are willing to do, not make suggestions that don't work for you. That's not good problem solving.

I know. It is not good problem solving. I am not really sure why I do this. It has not been the only time. I say stupid things when I feel pushed into a corner and don't see any way out that will actually be okay for me. And solving that problem by myself is not okay for me, either. It will solve that conflict, but it will not solve the conflict that I don't want it to be like that between my husband and me. It actually has not happened in previous relationships or in fights with other people that I say such stupid things.

If it is that he doesn't want to be partners any more -- how about just having that conversation up front, rather than all these draining side trips?

I tried initiating that conversation. He says he does not want us to separate. I mean, we had that discussion now, after this particular fight, but we have had it multiple times during the past year, mainly because I will not continue this kind of fighting forever. If it doesn't change, I will definitely leave, eventually. It is not what I want for my life.

Which makes me wonder if this is a case of of him getting "louder and louder" with the chronic arguments because he doesn't really want to be doing poly? Is that what all this is really about?

I don't think so. Me wanting to live poly adds to the way we fight, and yes, maybe he is now less inclined to bend. But he has never been willing to, in the first place.

 

[GalaGirl]

He says he does not want us to separate. I mean, we had that discussion now, after this particular fight, but we have had it multiple times during the past year. Mainly, because I will not continue this kind of fighting, forever. If it doesn't change, I will definitely leave, eventually. It is not what I want for my life.

He could list what he is up for and what he is not up for.

He is not willing to separate.

Is he willing to step it up and listen to your needs instead of running right over them?

Is he willing to learn how to do better conflict resolution so your are solving problems together, rather than "me vs you?"

What is he willing to do/change to make staying together doable?

Does he understand that this has been a longstanding problem in the relationship, and that if it doesn't get solved, eventually you will want to leave?

Galagirl

 

[DeepBlue]

He is not willing to separate.

That's changed. He is now more willing to separate.

Is he willing to step it up and listen to your needs instead of running right over them?

Maybe. I am really not sure. He certainly does not want to listen to me when we are talking, the two of us, only.

Is he willing to learn how to do better conflict resolution so your are solving problems together rather than "me vs you?"

Maybe. He thinks that I have to change, not him. But we will see.

What is he willing to do/change to make staying together doable?

I don't think he wants to do much. He is pretty much on the "I don't want to share you" side. And... well... that means we will separate, and then, he is not willing to do much.

Does he understand that this has been a longstanding problem in the relationship? And that if it doesn't get solved, eventually you will want to leave?

Not really. The only longstanding problem that he recognizes is that "sometimes, she [that's me] is too emotional." That I have reasons to get to that point doesn't seem to matter.

We have finally found a counselor who had time to give us an appointment. We have seen him, once. My husband did most of the talking. I felt... left out? I don't know. For example, the counselor was asking "How are you today?" obviously addressing the two of us, and my husband responded very long. I never got to say how I was. Also, "Do you think there are any problems in your relationship?" and my husband again responded very long. I did not get a chance to talk about it, at all. Time was up.

So I hope the next session will be different. We were asked to define goals of those sessions. The one goal we were able to agree upon was "improving our communication as parents." I hope that will work.

We are at a really bad point in our relationship right now. I felt trapped for a while. (It is a bit better now.) My husband would threaten that if I left him, I wouldn't be able to keep my job, and he would not pay any support then (which is against our law, btw). He would also say things like "If we split up, we will not able to be good parents, anymore. We will not be able to communicate," and that really scares me. But I hope we will work that out with the counselor.

He went to see a lawyer to ask how divorce will formally work. I am glad he finally did that, because it put an end to the financial threats.

Of course, I have not seen Salt in the meantime. We talk on a regular basis. I would really like to see him. But that would violate the agreement with my husband to not see him.

 

[kdt26417]

It sounds like things have improved marginally ... at least the two of you are seeing a counselor, that's somewhat hopeful, even if the first session didn't work out quite like you would have wanted. I still think a divorce is likely, but at least there's hope of it being an amicable divorce.

Hang in there ...

 

[anamikanon]

Sorry to sound pessimistic, but I think the lawyer will probably turn out more useful than the counsellor. In my observation, once deliberate unkindness enters a relationship, it is very hard to reverse it. Whether or not Salt works out, you may end up having to ditch husband in any case. Perhaps you will feel better if you meet a lawyer as well and have an endgame in sight. Not necessarily start proceedings, but have clarity on what needs to be done so that doing it is not a hypothetical difficulty, leaving you stranded with an unpleasant partner before you are ready to move on. It may allow you to stress less about his behavior as well and in turn allow some detachment to bring perspective for you both.

Also you taking a specific action that makes the separation more real may encourage him to take a hard look at the larger picture and see whether tantrums about what isn't to his preference are helping the two of you - and perhaps make more functional choices. While you have talked about it but done nothing, mentally, you still remain someone within his influence to treat how he wishes. I can't really explain this better, but I have seen this happen many times, where extreme reactions sober down and get way more functional once the possibility of a separation becomes more real and you are forced to look at what you will lose with the change.

If nothing, the next time you stress out, you will know that this is now a temporary feature of your life and motivate you to make plans for a future you anticipate instead of fixating on how he could be different.

 

[DeepBlue]

I don't feel the need to see a lawyer. Actually, I think I will simply agree to be represented by my husband's lawyer for the divorce. (That is possible, and rather common.) Unless we really get into a financial or custody battle. Which I am very much trying to avoid. My husband may say some really stupid things, now, but I don't think he is really willing to take any of it before a judge, either.

We will fix a date of separation in our "post-nup-pre-nup"... that's a pretty clear step towards a divorce. One year of separation can be followed by officially filing for divorce.

 

[kdt26417]

Sounds sensible enough.