Which way to turn?

Yeah, that'd be a good place to start.
 
So Karma obviously finaly woke up and we talked and I don't feel like we made any progress at all.

I wish I could be the manipulative bitch he thinks I am. Maybe it wouldn't hurt as much. Maybe then I could just use people and get what I want without caring.

But I'm not, I can't and it doesn't matter.

Apparently neither of us trusts the other and I have no idea what to do about it.

I don't know what I did to make him believe that I am so manipulative, but I know what he did and I don't know how to get over it. And that of course makes me the bad guy. Because I don't know is an unacceptable answer. Maybe I should be the one who lives a life of lies. It seems he just wants answers regardless of what they are or if they mean anything.

I don't know is all I have right now. I'm sorry it isn't enough. Not being/having enough seems to be what I am good at.
 
Mohegan said:
I don't know what I did to make him believe that I am so manipulative, but I know what he did and I don't know how to get over it.
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Erm, I feel a little like I'm intruding on a private conversation, so I apologise if that's the case. I also feel like I'd like to make a suggestion, so I'm going to comment anyway.

You mention (like, a lot) that you're very upset about what happened in the past between you and Karma. Which is totally fair; what happened was very upsetting. But that needs to inform your decision about whether or not to be in a relationship with Karma. If you're going to decide to be in a relationship with him, which is apparently your decision, then you really do need to "get over it" by forgiving him.

I don't think people in loving relationships should be accusing each other of being manipulative. People should trust each other to clearly ask for what they want, and assuming bad faith about a partner's expression of genuine emotion is poisonous. That said, I can understand someone who is presumably feeling guilty also feeling manipulated when the thing that they feel guilty about is being brought up in the context of other disputes.

Look, maybe you can't forgive him. Which I totally get; I don't know that I would be able to. I'm not saying that you should. But you shouldn't be in a relationship with him and also not forgive him. That's going to make everyone miserable. What happened can't keep playing a role in decisions about the relationship other than whether or not you should be in it.

I don't have any special insight about how to forgive someone. I'd ask instead what the downside to doing it is. Imagine that you really did forgive him, and trusted him the way that you used to. What's the worst thing that could happen? Is it really that much worse than continuing the current dynamic?

I think it's worth pointing out that nothing in the above has anything to do with polyamory. It may not feel like it at the moment, but the situation would be exactly the same if you were going to try being monogamous again. You'd still need to figure out a way to repair that trust in each other before having a healthy relationship.
 
Mohegan said:
I don't know is all I have right now. I'm sorry it isn't enough. Not being/having enough seems to be what I am good at.
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It doesn't make any sense to me that you "don't know" what you need. Obviously, I hurt you. We keep coming back to this, and yet, when I ask you what I need to do to make it right, all you ever say is that you "need more time".

It's become very, very apparent to me that sitting around and waiting for you to magically heal someday is going nowhere fast. I've accepted my part in this situation. I've owned up to my actions.

And all you seem to want is to sit here wait. What am I waiting for? How is this helping anything? How long am I sitting here waiting around for this magical fix to your pain?

Waiting is not proactive. It's doing nothing - literally.

How is doing nothing going to help you? I don't understand this at all, and I don't understand how you "don't know" what you need me to do to help you. How can you not know? It's your heart and your mind.

It's like starting at something that I need the owners manual to fix, and you've got the manual and won't give it to me, but you're expecting me to fix it anyway.
 
jkelly said:
You mention (like, a lot) that you're very upset about what happened in the past between you and Karma. Which is totally fair; what happened was very upsetting. But that needs to inform your decision about whether or not to be in a relationship with Karma. If you're going to decide to be in a relationship with him, which is apparently your decision, then you really do need to "get over it" by forgiving him.
I have chosen to stay. And I have chosen to forgive. That doesn'e take away the pain or the break in trust. I can't just "Get over" 8 yrs of lies.
I don't think people in loving relationships should be accusing each other of being manipulative. People should trust each other to clearly ask for what they want, and assuming bad faith about a partner's expression of genuine emotion is poisonous. That said, I can understand someone who is presumably feeling guilty also feeling manipulated when the thing that they feel guilty about is being brought up in the context of other disputes.
No they shouldn't be accusing eachother of manipulation. But apparently we both have trust issues. My point was-I haven't done anything to result in said accusations.
Look, maybe you can't forgive him. Which I totally get; I don't know that I would be able to. I'm not saying that you should. But you shouldn't be in a relationship with him and also not forgive him. That's going to make everyone miserable. What happened can't keep playing a role in decisions about the relationship other than whether or not you should be in it.
I have forgiven, I don't believe forgive and forget are the same thing nor do I believe that forgive equals get over. I have forgiven him for the lieing and the cheating. Not completely for breaking my heart, but I'm trying. But I don't think that means I should walk away from my marriage. Does love mean nothing? Does time to heal from pain mean nothing? Because I am hurting I should walk away? That clause wasn't in my vows.
I don't have any special insight about how to forgive someone. I'd ask instead what the downside to doing it is. Imagine that you really did forgive him, and trusted him the way that you used to. What's the worst thing that could happen? Is it really that much worse than continuing the current dynamic?
The worst thing? He could do the same damn thing all over again. He could convince my friends to lie to me again so I once again don't know which of them I could trust. He could take every promise we are making and throw them out the window. I lov emy husband, I don't want to walk away, but I am petrfied of having my shattered into little pieces again.
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Karma said:
It doesn't make any sense to me that you "don't know" what you need. Obviously, I hurt you. We keep coming back to this, and yet, when I ask you what I need to do to make it right, all you ever say is that you "need more time".
Well time heals wounds. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. As I told you tonight, in the past when I have gone through something similar I walked away. You mean to much to me, who we are, who I am with you all means to much to me to walk away. So this is new ground. I can't slap neosporin and a band aid over my heart and move on like nothing happened.
It's become very, very apparent to me that sitting around and waiting for you to magically heal someday is going nowhere fast.
How? She's stayed the night what 3 times? And only this last time was able to get through the night without crying, without wanting to go to you. Only recently have I gotten to the point where I don't need to hear your every phone call. I've been able to let you go out with her, alone, and not have an issue with it. I'm moving as fast as I can. I'm making huge steps forward, as I see it. I don't see us sitting stagnant, I see a week ago me realizing the good she's brought us, me. I see me making attempts to include her in our activities, wanting to get to know her, to spend time with her. How is waiting going no where? B/c it's not like we're just waiting. The only two things I am not okay with are you staying the night with her somewhere other than here, and you having sex with her. I'd say that in a little over 2 months I've gone pretty far forward pretty damn fast.

And all you seem to want is to sit here wait. What am I waiting for? How is this helping anything? How long am I sitting here waiting around for this magical fix to your pain?

Waiting is not proactive. It's doing nothing - literally.
See above. I don't see it as standing still, I see it as needing time to move forward slowly at my pace.

It's like staring at something that I need the owners manual to fix, and you've got the manual and won't give it to me, but you're expecting me to fix it anyway.
It's because the damn manual is written in a language I don't speak right now. Mr not in touch with emotons should be able to understand that. Do you get how hard it is to dig around in a wound while being emotionaly disconnected? Did you forget I cried like a freaking child for hours two weeks ago and didn't even know why? And I'm supposed to know how to get over everything and heal a wound I've never had? I'm not withholding the manual. I'm trying to perform heart surgery, and guess what-that shit's a lot harder than baking a cake.
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I feel like I am being asked to do the most terrifying thing in the world. "trust me it will all be okay". And I am so emotionaly run down and so sick of not having the answers I am ready to just say do whatever you want. Obviously going at my pace isn't working for anyone so lets go at yours and see how long I can survive. I don't know what else to do. I'm being as honest as I can. I'm sorry that isn't enough.
 
Mohegan said:
I feel like I am being asked to do the most terrifying thing in the world. "trust me it will all be okay". And I am so emotionaly run down and so sick of not having the answers I am ready to just say do whatever you want. Obviously going at my pace isn't working for anyone so lets go at yours and see how long I can survive. I don't know what else to do. I'm being as honest as I can. I'm sorry that isn't enough.
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You never told me that you were crying in bed while she was spending the night with me on the couch - not my fault, you should have told me that if you expected me to be aware of it. This is what I'm talking about with you clamming up on me all the sudden - I had no idea this had even occured. In fact, most of the 'progress' you've spoken of is stuff I had no clue about, because it was all stuff that was going on in your mind - that you didn't let me know about.

You're missing the point. I don't want to "just do what I want". I want to FIX this. I want to figure out what the problems are and correct them, not just coerce you into giving me "permission" to do whatever it is I want to do, and not just sit around doing nothing except watching you wallow in the pain of past wounds. That doesn't fix anything, or at least it doesn't have any real results that I can see. Waiting is not doing something. You can say that 'Time heals all wounds" all you want, but all I've ever seen time do to an emotional wound is cause it to fester. People wait and wait, hoping it gets better, but because they don't confront the issues and fix them, they just get bitter and the problem festers and never goes away, it just turns into a grudge that gets held the whole time the person is "waiting" for time to heal the wounds for them.

I don't know what else to do for you. I don't know what you need, and apparently you don't either. I want to confront your feelings so we can at least figure out what it is that you need, but we keep going around in circles.
 
I have a lot to think about.To process and to try to figure out the solutions to. I'm off to bed. Hope everyone has a great weekend.
 
I'm sorry karma, but from what I am reading, you are being selfish. YOU CHEATED! You might see that as nothing, but one does not get over it in two months. Fortunately we have all been a witness to the journey you have been on and I can tell you that M, from what is written here, has been working very hard FOR YOU! Herself also buy mostly, FOR YOU! Read back, read what it used be like and see. To me its still fresh as a daisy. To M it is too. You do not have the market cornered on how fast someone should heal from YOUR mistakes I reckon. It DOES take time; you broke one of the most sacred of trusts, a trust between a wife and her husband. When you made your vows, in front of everyone you love, you said you would never do that. YOU FUCKED IT UP! You don't get to whine about how long its taking to heal from the wounds of that I think. Somethings do not take words, they take actions to heal and now you seem to be fucking up again by whining about how you want to have sex with your girlfriend rather than doing nice things for M and spending time working on the process of healing WITH HER.

I'm sorry, cheating and affairs is a big trigger for me. Having been through the gammot of it. I am still getting over what I did to someones wife that was over a year ago! She didn't know and I didn't know she didn't know that I was fucking her husband. I also cheated and lost a good relationship forever because of it. I am friends with all my exes but one because of it. It STILL breaks my heart and that was almost 20 years ago! I struggle with Monos having cheated at least once a week still and he didn't even cheat on me! He had an affair for 2 years plus several other short term affairs that came before. I have forgiven him but don't forget. I hope to hell his wife is getting over it. She HATES me because of it I'm sure. She sees me and our relationship as discusting and less than it is to us because of her pain. She barely talks to him and his daughter hasn't in 2 years! Cheating and affairs are not easily over come by someone who loves you. Out yourself in her shoes for awhile and check your motivations. A little compassion would suit you better I think. I certainly hope your girlfriend isn't pushing this or I would have a whole lot more to say about that.

You are a lucky, lucky man to have such a woman. Don't take it for granted and whine. I would never stay with someone who cheats on me, NEVER and she has chosen not only to stay and plug away working on it, but has embraced your girlfriend. COME ON! That is a HUGE gift! Where do you get off complaining?
 
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Thanks RP I appreciate that.

So after even more talking, crying and fighting we got down to the point that he sees progress, now. Apparently things I thought were obvious, weren't. I don't need to wait forever, I need time to catch my breath.

I need him to show me I'm special, that I matter. He talks about taking g/f out to dinner, opening doors for her and so on. When do I get that? When do I get treated without scheduling it myself?

He keeps asking what I need-I need to feel I'm special and important. I need to feel like I matter. Like losing me would be as detrimental as almost losing her was. I need to feel secure in my marriage so I can fel secure in what they have. I need to feel like my feeling matter, that they aren't just something to conquer and solve on the way to getting what he wants.

He said last night he felt like there was a time where I went stereo typical wife - I hooked a man so I don't need to try anymore. Well I'm not the only one who did that.

I need to know he feels as lucky as he says he is. I need to hear meaningful compliments. They were flowing freely when we first got back on board with fixing this and now they've drifted away.

I am a person with emotions, feelings, quirks not a problem to be solved.

I feel like there is little care about me and a lot of care about how to fix the problems.

He's off to pick up g/f for their weekend together. I'm not feeling very social, I may spend the weekend with a book.
 
You are an incredibly special person Mohegan. I don't know that i could forgive cheating AND still allow the relationship that had started in cheating and hurt me to continue. It's one day at a time and one issue at a time. Sometimes it's even hard to figure out what it is that you need. Be kind to yourself, let yourself feel whatever you have to and ask for what you need.

-Derby
 
Derbylicious said:
You are an incredibly special person Mohegan. I don't know that i could forgive cheating AND still allow the relationship that had started in cheating and hurt me to continue. It's one day at a time and one issue at a time. Sometimes it's even hard to figure out what it is that you need. Be kind to yourself, let yourself feel whatever you have to and ask for what you need.

-Derby
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Thanks Derby I appreciate that. At a pause in the fighting I asked if he had talked to her yesturday and he hadn't. Then he asked how I can do that, how I can be so hurt and still care about them. To want them to work.

I love him, and he loves her. He obviously gets things from her to fill needs I can't, so who I am to tell him he can't love someone. I don't believe love can just be ignored, just walked away from. I can't tell him he can't be with someone he loves. That's a little more selfish than I am willing to be.

I wish things had gone the way we talked and planned. That we met someone together, got to know them together. But that it isn't how it happened so there's a lot we have to work through, but that doesn't mean they can't work.
 
We went to the local carnival. Karma won me a monkey and won g/f a dragon. Now we are playing with herbs and making incense.

I'm doing a bit better. I think we are back in the same chapter if not the same page.
 
Make that I was feeling better. This rollercoaster is getting really old. I went to wal mart for all of 20 min. Come home and Karmas got a hickey on the side of his neck. Last time he warned me and I think that's why I was okay with it. This time it was just walk in the door and ta da! He didn't say a word about it.

I don't know why it bothered me, other than I feel like they waited for me to leave-more sneaking. So of course my mind ran to- how much can they do in 20 min, did they have sex? Other than when he kisses her, they aren't very affectionate around eachother and it really makes me feel like they waited for me to leave. Probably wasn't the case, but it still hurt.

So I find myself wondering how the hell I'll handle them having sex if I can't handle a damn hickey. Maybe it was the surprise of it. Or maybe it was the territorial feeling- like that's mine to mark. Which he isn't. He's his own.

He also asked if they could share the bed with me tonight. I dunno how to answer that. He says he can't sleep with 3 in the bed, yet now he wants to?

Karma says he has a hard time with not knowing how I'm feeling or what to do to fix it. I wish I could show him how it felt to be the one with the pain and confusion and still have no answers. I'd love to get back to normal and stop riding this rollercoaster. I'd love to know when a certain thing will set me off and when it won't and what it is in the first place.

He's looking to me to solve the problem and I have no idea how. I hate this, I hate feeling this way. Being so emotionaly charged is a good thing most of the time, but right now it's a curse. Right now my heart hurts and hate that feeling. I hate feeling so weak and at the mercy of an unknown god.
 
I'm feeling better today. Karma and I stayed up and talked until 6am after g/f fell asleep. Then had some alone time while she was home doing homework. I found some things on healing broken marriages and gaining back trust. I tried some of the exercises-writing down why I can't trust him and analyzing the severity of those reasons. Discussing why I want to trust again. And some more thought on what I need. We talked a lot and not just about us, about a lot things going on around us right now. That was part of what I needed. Part of our disconnect came from losing who the other was in this mess. I am feeling more connected to my husband. More aware of what goes on in his brain. Hopefully we can keep moving forward for awhile before I drop out again. Adjusting to not being on the meds in the midst of all of this is really hard. I think it is part of why my emotions keep going all over.

Karma and g/f are going to a party tonight so I have some more time to think. I was invited as well, but I'm really not feeling well, so I chose to stay home.
 
M, you are a very special person. I have been through, and still going through, my own issues and problems. You are such a strong person. I hope that I can be as strong as you. Don't give up, don't quit. Continue to communicate with Karma, if he truly wants to keep you in his life, I think he will learn and compromise. Good luck. And remember, YOU CAAAAANN DDDOOOO IIITTT!!!!
 
Been doing a lot of reading and a lot of thinking today.

I think part of my issues with Karma having sex with g/f or even staying at her house, is that I don't like to share. An interesting revalation. The hickey issue was definitaly territorial. Yes my mind went to all the past issues and the are they lieing and sleeping together anyway. But I think the bigger part of the issue was that they did something that did not involve me.

With the hickey thing, I find hickies gross and tacky. I think I took it as she was trying to mark territory and that's my territory you are marking up.

Somewhat irrational and wrong. But I think that is where it was coming from.

Something else I discussed with Karma was that I don't see them being intimate. I only see them kiss when he kisses her. They only snuggle together or even sit together if I push it. I really dislike when people tip toe around things. For example if someone close recently dies and people don't bring up that person or for bad when they do, for fear of bringing up the pain. Now I get that it is out of concern for my feelings, but I'm never going to deal with those feelings if everyone is hiding things and tip toeing around the subject.

Karma confirmed that this is exactly why they aren't more intimate around me and last night at the party ( I ended up feeling better and went late) they did kiss more. And Karma asked if that was enough affection. I had to laugh because he made it seem like I was grading him. I just want things to be natural. If you want to make out with her in a corner, do it. But don't forget that I'm still here, that's all I ask.

I read a lot of articles on jealousy and I really don't think that is what I am feeling. But I don't think it is really the trust issues either. If I say it's okay for them to sleep together-they aren't breaking a trust. And so far they have honored any request I've made, so again they aren't breaking a trust.

In some ways I think my fears are patialy to blame on my OCD. Before I go further, I am not one to blame all my problems on my illnesses. But I also acknowledge that they play a large role in how I react to things in my day to day. OCD has to major parts- obsessions and compulsions. As a kid I was all compulsion. I had rituals for cleaning, checking, counting etc. and if I didn't do them then something would happen- I'd get a disease, my mom would die on a business trip, my dad would get called back up to duty and go to war, the house would catch fire, and on and on. Through work with a therepist I had all but the cleaning under control by middle school.

Karma used to joke that I would rather clean than have sex. And for the most part he was right. Because when we met I was suppressing a sexual assault, and later on I was in too much pain for sex. Cleaning calmed me and helped me keep my mind from racing- sex didn't.

But I have slowly got myself under control there as well. I have limits to how often I clean, when it is imparitive and when something can be let go for a few days. It has really been helpful.

After talking the other night though, I think I may have not cured anything. Only replaced the compulsions with obsessions. And all the worst (and my imagination can come up with some worsts) case scenarios, all the what ifs, all the horrible devious things I could ever imagne have become my obsessions. I will run myself in circles into a downward spiral thinking of some of the most rediculous and unlikely scenarios.

So my next step is to talk with Karma when I get to those points and lay all the irrational crazy stuff out on the table. We've agreed to talk it through and I am hoping this will help me see how unlikely it all is. Very similar to the behavior therepy for the compulsions.

So in a nutshell I'm back on the up swing. Back to taking control of my life. Back to finding the root of the issues and solving them. Part of it is my insecurities. But they are mine to deal with. No one allowed them to manifest but me and no is responsible to take them apart but me. Karma and I are going to work on reconnecting and building security back into out marriage. That one we are both at fault for and it take us both to fix. And I will work on my obsessing. Writing them down and discussing them with Karma. He's really good at helping me see rational vs irrational fear.

I think I am on the right track, and I hope this shows him I am not asking for more time to just stand still and do nothing. I am asking for more time to straighten all this out and save us from even larger issues down the line.
 
Still doing well. Karma stayed home with me today even though g/f called and wanted him to come over. We were supposed to go to DC to the Native American Museum, but I'm in a lot of pain so we postponed til later in the week. We talked about tomorrow, but I think Thurs or Fri may be better. We'll see how I feel.

He's helped me do laundry, cooked an amazing dinner of lobster ravioli, salmon and homemade alfredo sauce, cleaned up the living room and played some card games (we're dorks and play magic the gathering).

No deep life altering conversations today, just some good fun hanging out. It was nice, peaceful. I appreciate the time he gives me and am trying to be more aware of it.

I at times have painted Karma in a bad light, and while I have been honest with everything I have posted here, it has all been from my pov. Except for the few times he's commented. He is a good guy. He has good intentions, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. This blog has given me space to dump out the contents of my heart and at times my brain, and get feedback from others. I truly appreciate that. I guess I just wanted to state that along with all the pain and misery, there is love and joy. He knows he screwed up, I know I screwed up and we are both trying to work together to put it back the way it belongs. It hurts like hell but we can do it. I love facebook bumper stickers and I found one the other night that said " what do you do when the one that broke your heart into a million pieces, is the only one who can put them back together?" Pretty fitting.

Well I'm off to take some pain pills and try to get some sleep. Hope everyone has a great day.
 
Today is another good day. I was in a lot of pain when I woke up, but I decided to take a new approach as rest doesn't seem to be doing anything. So I worked out instead. Through research I've discovered some Dr's feel the achey pain comes from lack of protein. So after working out I tried a protein shake-gross! :D So I'm gonna get some fresh fruit, frozen yogurt and use protein powder to make my own.

But aside from being a little worn out, I'm feeling much better physical than I have the last few days.

I've also been reading, journaling and constantly trying to figure out the root of my issues with Karma and g/f sleeping together. I still don't know the root of it. I don't know what the big issue is. That bothers me. I don't like not knowing how to fix something.

I do know that right now it doesn't bother me. I know he loves me. I know he is committed to making this work.

But I can't help but have that fear in the back of my mind. I read an article today about how to recover from an affair and the woman said "Because of all the work I did on myself, my self esteem is at an all time high. I no longer worry my husband will cheat again" How do you know he won't? How does your self esteem keep your husband from cheating? That just seems delusionsal.

Which beings me to my realisation of the day. I'm affraid to trust him again because I am affraid of the pain and the humiliation of being the fool again. Everyone knew but me, yes I had suspicions, but EVERYONE knew but me. Because he promised he's never hurt me that way again. So I kept talking myself into believing his lies.

I don't want to go through that again. So it doesn't matter how much work I do on myself. He broke a promise and I'm affraid to fall for that again.


On another note. G/f called earlier and said she was stranded at school. So Karma took off and got her then stayed at her place for a bit. He came home and thanked me for not getting mad. And I wasn't. I was a little irritated that I had to ask what she wanted instead of him telling me and asking if I minded. Simple courtesies seem to get ignored as far as she is concerned. But it is what it is and progress is being made. My irritation had nothing to do with her and everything to do with my personal pet peeves with common courtesy.

But whatever that is a constant battle. He's home now and I am going to enjoy spending some time with my husband.
 
Today has been about aha moments for me. I've decided to take better control of my life. And came to answer about yesturdays blog.

I will not magicaly lose the fear that he will cheat again, simply by doing self work and gaining confidence. But I will gain the ability to not fear it so deeply. I will not be made the fool if he does decieve me again because I kept my word, put my all into fixing things and it won't be looking like the fool when it falls.

But I WILL be the fool if I refuse to fix things and put my all into fixing things because I am gun shy.

When I was a kid I was in a riding accident and was terrified to get back on a horse. My grandfather told me if I hung onto that fear, I would never ride again and would never get any better. It was best that I get on the horse again.

I didn't for years and years. Finaly my cousin convinced me to ride with him. I was able to let my fear go and enjoy it. I haven't ridden alone since, but I no longer fear horses. I no longer have the desire to ride with the wind in my hair. I can't help but feel I took something from myself because of fear.

I don't want to miss out on the amazing things my life and my marriage have in store. I don't want fear to rule my life. I don't want to be the one to blame for allowing fear to take away my joys.

I'm not completely ready to tell Karma and g/f to go ahead, but I'm a lot closer. I hate who I am when the depression and anxiety take over. That's part of what I need to work on. Part of the security I need to regain.

I walked for 2 miles today, did some strength training, cleaned the house, meditated and found a lot of answers. This weekend will be ours without g/f. I'm looking forward to some more time to show Karma how much I love him.
 
My husband, Nerdist, has lived his whole life dealing with fear. Its my belief that everyone has a life struggle and his is fear. He has worked hard on it and has come leaps and bounds in the last couple of years.

One of the books that started his journey of work is called "feel the fear and do it anyways" by Susan Jeffers. It has become a part of his make up now and I often remind him to "feel the fear and do it anyways" perhaps you will find it a good read also.
 
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