Religion, politics, sex .. and other taboo subjects

[vinsanity0]

A woman making moves on a guy is generally not threatening. Most likely she won't be too aggressive, she won't persist, she won't become a stalker. There are far more male criminals than female ones.



What group?

I was the only man in an office full of women. They can be quite aggressive. But you are right, I never felt physically intimidated by them.

I am 6'3". It kind of freaks me out that I could be considered intimidating. I hope I never made any women feel that way. Cat was a stripper when we met. I remember one time a guy grabbed her ass. She picked up a heavy glass ashtray and threw it at his head. I have very little experience with women who consider themselves weak.

The group I'm talking about is a Seattle poly group. A certain vocal faction had some pretty radical ideas.

 

[Ravenscroft]

Magdlyn, I do not in any significant way disagree with you. In all seriousness, I feel as though I am at a "wtf?" moment in my life. Like, I am in the same boat as

It kind of freaks me out that I could be considered intimidating.

I'm all of 5'9, & kinda on the skinny side. I do not feel "powerful" over anyone.

This has bothered me for 30+ years -- I do not DESERVE such power, & I do not WANT any such power.

That, perhaps, is why we need to TALK.

 

[Spork]

You are damn straight Ravenscroft, we need to TALK, all of us. I just really worry that this whole thing will get too mired in antagonism and feelings of offense and defense, that we won't get where we need to go as a culture.

I've been thinking about all of this ever since I got into poly and kink, because I do think that in spaces (including this site) where we come together and share ideas, and only insofar as I count the people who choose to do so, we have different approaches to things like consent, respect for ourselves and others, how we approach interaction with others. In doing different things with relationships, many have realized that we need new tools for how to negotiate all of the possible variables. We're stepping out of the established paradigm, and with all of this freedom, have to think in terms of "OK, now I can have anything, everything, what the heck do I want? And how do I interface that with other people in my life, so that we are all realizing our needs and values and happiness, here?" You HAVE to negotiate, or it all falls apart.

In the many cases where people have behaved badly but their intent was misguided more than it was monstrous, I really hate the idea that their careers and lives can be ruined when people speak against them. People make mistakes. Ignorance is curable. Let's fix what is broken, not wreck people out of anger.

(I just read an interesting Buddhist philosophy book on anger. Good things don't come of acting in anger, no matter how righteous or justified it may be. We can, and should try to, do better than that.)

I don't want men so afraid of the destruction of their lives that they dare not admit they've been wrong, and hence participate in the conversation that leads us to better and more respectful behaviors between the sexes.

I don't want women furiously demanding an accounting in blood for every time they felt violated, regardless of the intent of the man or men involved.

I want things to get better for everyone. Maybe this is how we get there. I don't know. I do know that there are plenty of regular guys, who, when you explain to them some best practices for engaging with women in the world, they get angry. I know plenty of men who think that they need to interact with women to get sexual gratification, and the appropriate way to do this, is to ply them with alcohol until their boundaries and "inhibitions" get loose enough, and then move on the goal. And if you told them that this was predatory or wrong, they get angry. HOW THEN ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO GET SEX?? One can say, well...maybe if you quit saying that "easy" women are trash, and allow us the freedom to enjoy casual sex without being shamed about it, you could have an easier time. Let go of the whole "there are two types of women, the kind you bang and the kind you marry" concept and maybe we could get somewhere here. That just makes them angrier. Plenty of guys still staunchly defend the status quo, even saying it is a matter of nature, evolution, biology, and that people like me who suggest it's a matter of choice in how we behave, are just being delusional, denying reality.

I could point ya'll to a forum where I argue this stuff almost all day, almost every day. Plenty of it out there.

But even if the muggles frustrate me half to death sometimes, I feel like, having SEEN better relating behaviors at work, and seeing them work well, in my own social circles...I have nearly an obligation to keep sharing these ideas. While I can't force anybody to change their stance by arguing with them, I do think that there are many people who are confused, who take my words in and it does nudge them to think about things. And occasionally, by wrapping a concept in a sneaky but more palatable shell of stuff they're willing to hear, I get it in there like stuffing a pill into cheese when you feed it to your dog...

 

[Nox]

I'm actually really happy with how this has all been treated. Until Ansari, there really weren't any situations where it wasn't obvious that it should be noticed and there should be consequences.

Once it came to a questionable situation, we pulled back and had some differing opinions. This is how it should be and how we move forward as a population. This is ok. This is not. This is why. We can disagree, of course, but it lets us feel out boundaries.

 

[Magdlyn]

I was the only man in an office full of women. They can be quite aggressive. But you are right, I never felt physically intimidated by them.

I am 6'3". It kind of freaks me out that I could be considered intimidating. I hope I never made any women feel that way. Cat was a stripper when we met. I remember one time a guy grabbed her ass. She picked up a heavy glass ashtray and threw it at his head. I have very little experience with women who consider themselves weak.

Magdlyn,

I'm all of 5'9, & kinda on the skinny side. I do not feel "powerful" over anyone.

This has bothered me for 30+ years -- I do not DESERVE such power, & I do not WANT any such power.

That, perhaps, is why we need to TALK.

I think it's really funny that both you guys, no matter your height and weight, are unaware or in denial of your relative physical strength superiority as compared to the average (non star athlete) woman.

I've been sexually assaulted 3 times. The worst time involved a creep, a stranger, stalking me 3 blocks down a city street after dark, around 7pm. He had spoken to me first, but I was unaware he was following me. He then attacked me from behind in the hallway of my friend's building after I entered. As I recall, he was a skinny shorter skeevy kinda guy (maybe just about my height and weight at 5'7" 132 lbs), but I might have been raped if my (male) friend had not come running down the stairs since he heard me scream before the guy put his hand over my mouth while knocking me down.

When my 2 daughters were preteens I enrolled them in karate classes (just for self defense against creeps!). Their skills came in handy more than once. One time a neighborhood bully was teasing one of my daughters and went to hit her. She instinctively and accurately blocked his punch and he went rolling down the hill they were on.

A worse situation was when my older daughter was 13 and sleeping over at a friend's house, and the girl's drunk naked father came to where my daughter was sleeping and attempted to... well he wanted to fuck her. He put his hands on her. She used her karate moves as well as negotiating skills. She convinced him to go back to bed with his wife.

It's happened to every woman!! This disgusting behavior, this rape, this child sexual assault. So fucking gross.

 

[Magdlyn]

But back to Ansari. If you haven't read the article about this date gone wrong/sexual assault on babe.net, you should. To me it represents an important nuance or grey area yet to be properly addressed in media. There are many differences of opinion on how this date went. Perhaps more young women are on "Grace's" side, more men on Ansari's side. But I'm on Ansari's side, and this is why.

This young woman admits in the article that she was drunk at the Emmys after party and approached Ansari first. She was at the party with another man, but kept giving Ansari the eye all night. Before leaving, she gave him her number.

Then they texted for a week. Grace didn't seem to tell the babe.net reporter the content of those texts, how sexual they got, (despite sharing other post date texts which were photocopied into the article), but it seems Ansari expected intercourse when he took her on a date. Maybe she did share the texts, but they showed her own culpability on what Ansari expected, and so the reporter didn't think it made as trendy of a story... we don't know.

Mistake #1: she went to his place on the first date. They had wine. Then, lucky for her, he took her out to a fancy restaurant for dinner. Ordered a bottle of wine. Before finishing the wine, he said, Let's get out of here. (Code word for sex, duh.) She agreed, while thinking it was a bit of a rush to leave before they'd even finished the bottle or what was already in their glasses. She ignored her own instincts. Or was she just as eager for sex as he?

As soon as they walked in the door, he undressed both of them and sat Grace up on the kitchen counter, kissing and fondling her and then giving her oral sex. She didn't verbally object. She responded in kind.

When he went for a condom she said let's slow down and chill. Which she did by moving to the couch and sitting at his feet naked and giving him oral. Come on!

Then she reports she went cold and stopped blowing him or French kissing him. But he at that point was fired up from what they'd done and walked her to a mirror, humping her from behind and asking about fucking.

Was this all "assault" or did she just want more foreplay?

FINALLY she told him she was not going to fuck him after all, and put on her clothes and went to call an Uber. He got the message then, and made the Uber call for her.

When she left, he thought they'd done some sexual consensual activity, short of intercourse. She felt she'd been assaulted, she cried, and told several friends about it immediately by text, from the car and afterward. Somehow the story got to a babe reporter who talked to Grace, to her friends, read Ansari's text apology when Grace told him she'd felt bad the next morning. Copied and put that text exchange in the article. The reporter did not seem to contact Ansari.

To me this is nowhere near sexual assault. Women need to know not to give mixed signals. Some feminists say women feel SO unsafe around men that they are afraid to say a clear NO. Even to a "woke bae" like Ansari. (He addresses modern dating in his standup, TV show, and even wrote a book on it.) But imo this young 22 year old star struck woman made her first mistakes by going to his place on a first date, and proceeded to make more blunders when Ansari expected deep kissing and intercourse.

To me this is an obvious case of a very young naive 22 year old woman, just barely a woman, a girl really, getting in over her head with a sexually experienced, successful celebrity. Despite his "woke" attitudes, he was led to believe she was an easily bangable groupie. Turns out she wasn't. End of story.

 

[Spork]

I agree with you Magdlyn. Several thoughts about this.

I have had 50 partners in my life, 44 male and 6 female. The large majority of them when I was 14-18 years old. Out of that number, many were cases where my young self felt excited and empowered by the buildup of tension and desire and the opening overtures of the dance between boy and girl...and yet when it came to the act, I felt meh at best. However, I'd internalized that once you get a boy excited, it was nearly cruel to leave him there. So I went though with it. I would say the majority, within the first 30-60 seconds of penetration, I was just waiting for him to be done. Then most of the time I enjoyed a little post-sex chemical rush, the sight of sweat shining bodies, maybe a little conversation. I didn't feel awful or regretful afterwards or anything. But I've cast off ideas about sex being shameful due to my gender pretty early on. Plenty of times I felt like "Well, that happened. At this point, I'm not even sure why."

I don't believe, and didn't believe, that in having sex with a man, I was giving up some piece of my personal value that I'd never get back. Lots of women feel this way, in society. And in most cases I wasn't gunning for any kind of a serious relationship, so I didn't feel tricked if the dude spooked off later. I got a little annoyed if it was actually good and he didn't want it to continue when I did...but I got over it.

The ONLY time I experienced anything like assault, was when I was 14 (I think, that or 15) and a man who barely spoke English, and was in his mid-20's, came to our home...and I was trying to capture the feeling of, "I am so sexy, this man is really attracted to me" and let it go on even though my gut was saying "no, no, no"...I could not find a concrete REASON why I didn't want him...but eventually when it came to the act, I felt a panicky revulsion and tried to say no and get away. He became forceful and I was suddenly afraid I'd be hurt, so I let him do what he clearly needed to do, and then left him on the couch. I didn't feel all spiritually damaged and terrorized, just...gross. I washed a lot. I often say it was the same feeling one has if one steps in dog shit with a bare foot. It's not the end of the world, but it's disgusting. I locked myself in my room, he left at some point, I never saw him again. I told my Mom the next day that I never wanted to see him again. He didn't come back, or if he did I made myself scarce.

I learned then that if you aren't pretty darn sure you want to have sex with a guy, you had better not let it go that far. Don't be in a private place with him (like your home or his) for one thing. If you throw a guy all the signs that he's gonna get some, and then go to a private place with him...he has every reason to believe he is getting laid.

The problem is when we start talking about fault and blame and liability and who "deserves" any kind of suffering or punitive effects. Frankly, it's part of the entire "just world fallacy" that swirls around the whole concept of sexual assault, and that fallacy gets into a lot of victim blaming and so on. Do I believe the man who essentially statutory & date raped me deserves punishment under the law? No. In fact I do not. He was from another culture (rural Mexico) and he barely spoke the language. I gave him EVERY reason to believe he was going to have sex. I had a part in what went down. As life lessons go, this one was pretty cheap. I didn't get a disease, didn't get pregnant, didn't get harmed or killed. Just felt gross for a little while. Am I blaming myself or saying I "deserved" anything? Also no. I'm just NOT INTERESTED in blame, any more than I am interested in carrying an emotional load of trauma. It's long over and I don't care. If I could have him arrested today, I wouldn't. I want nothing to do with him or that.

Now a more significant problem in my eyes, is alcohol. I see again and again how alcohol muddies things up where it comes to consent. I don't know why so many people willingly drink, especially when sex or pursuit thereof is involved. I've never been drunk in my life, between a drunk father scaring the shit outta my child self and that incident where an acquaintance got drunk and was raped by a bunch of (also drunk) boys...and another time a drunk female friend tried to hug me with tequila vomit in her hair...I have so many reinforcing images in my mind that I cannot comprehend why anyone wants anything to do with drink.

Honestly? Guys loosening gals up with booze to get laid, women going along with it, and the fact that tons of normal people think that bars are where you go to find sex...to me, it's noxious rape culture exemplified. People think they NEED alcohol to relax enough to talk to other human beings, that is just madness. I mean, unless you are self-aware enough as a woman to understand you've got a consensual-non-consent kink or something.

Final thought (sorry about the long post, I know some people hate that, I'm in morning brain-boot mode over coffee right now)... What I really wish, is that I knew how to maintain my boundaries against a man who wants me, that I don't want to have sex with, without feeling bad about it. I always feel like I need to tread so lightly so as not to make him feel "rejected" and hurt his feelings, and I don't want to be hurtful. I feel like I need to carefully explain my reasons for saying no, and I need to have good reasons, and he'll try to talk me out of it, and... I have NEVER felt entirely comfortable defending my boundaries. The only alternative I know of, is avoidance. I'm actually dealing with this right now with someone I know, how to tell him to dial his behavior down and back off. It keeps getting more and more uncomfortable, and I'm going to have to actually have a talk with him. He apparently has the idea that I want to be cozy with him because I was friendly to him, and told him that I find him attractive, even though I also told him quite clearly that this doesn't mean I want to DO anything about that, and that I am in a very devoted relationship with Zen. I apparently gave him mixed signals. I should not have tried to boost his confidence by telling him he was a good looking man, should have kept my niceness to myself, and been socially colder to him. Can't project a bit of good mojo to somebody without them trying to take a mile, I suppose.

At least I know not to be in private with him.

 

[Ravenscroft]

I think it's really funny that both you guys, no matter your height and weight, are unaware or in denial of your relative physical strength superiority as compared to the average (non star athlete) woman.

You make radically sexist assumptions.

My first lover was a brown belt in judo.

Call her Meg. Here's a story I heard for years. I was out of town with my band, & there was a party on. Meg went out with our usual crowd. There was a big jock there who was hitting on Meg, & she wasn't interested. It got to the point where she suggested he should take it elsewhere. He asked how she'd avoid him, she mentioned the judo, & he smirked about "that kung-fu shit." Our friend Vince told me, "she smiled at him, a little sadly, put her hand on his shoulder, & he dropped to his knees screaming for her to stop."

Let's just say, she knew her nerve holds.

There's no way I would've crossed Meg's boundaries, but that was from respect as an individual.

So, my feeling is that any claims to "relative physical strength superiority" shows you don't know shit about judo.

Since Meg, I have always preferred to be with women who don't fuck around. I'm calmer, & not constantly needing to monitor myself in case of some misstep. Should I screw up, I hear about it.

I come from a family of strong-willed women. Maybe life in the city was different, but we were farm workers & laborers; long stories there.

My mother was all of 5'0 & maybe a hundred pounds soaking wet. Her father was an Army lifer, for years a drill instructor, a wiry guy I emulated, & he taught her how to defend herself. She loved me, & I have no doubt she would've kicked my ass if I'd hurt a woman; even if not physically, the mere idea that I might take some action that'd piss her off has pulled me up short of abject stupidity.

I have encouraged my lovers to speak to each other, to compare notes, & to gang up on me if there are any signs that I am being a dick. The errors have been few.

Hiding behind easy claims to "sexism" of males is AT BEST an avoidance of conversation.

 

[Spork]

You make radically sexist assumptions.

My first lover was a brown belt in judo.

Call her Meg. Here's a story I heard for years. I was out of town with my band, & there was a party on. Meg went out with our usual crowd. There was a big jock there who was hitting on Meg, & she wasn't interested. It got to the point where she suggested he should take it elsewhere. He asked how she'd avoid him, she mentioned the judo, & he smirked about "that kung-fu shit." Our friend Vince told me, "she smiled at him, a little sadly, put her hand on his shoulder, & he dropped to his knees screaming for her to stop."

Let's just say, she knew her nerve holds.

There's no way I would've crossed Meg's boundaries, but that was from respect as an individual.

So, my feeling is that any claims to "relative physical strength superiority" shows you don't know shit about judo.

Since Meg, I have always preferred to be with women who don't fuck around. I'm calmer, & not constantly needing to monitor myself in case of some misstep. Should I screw up, I hear about it.

I come from a family of strong-willed women. Maybe life in the city was different, but we were farm workers & laborers; long stories there.

My mother was all of 5'0 & maybe a hundred pounds soaking wet. Her father was an Army lifer, for years a drill instructor, a wiry guy I emulated, & he taught her how to defend herself. She loved me, & I have no doubt she would've kicked my ass if I'd hurt a woman; even if not physically, the mere idea that I might take some action that'd piss her off has pulled me up short of abject stupidity.

I have encouraged my lovers to speak to each other, to compare notes, & to gang up on me if there are any signs that I am being a dick. The errors have been few.

Hiding behind easy claims to "sexism" of males is AT BEST an avoidance of conversation.

The reason I wrote that crazy ass novel yesterday, was that too many times this mess isn't about physical force and who can violently overcome whom. I think a lot of our um...rape culture problems?...I don't even know what to call it... come into play with things that many women are socialized to believe, and then they're set loose in the world and struggle to know how to set and maintain boundaries. Then you have SOME men who will absolutely take advantage of that, and trust issues evolve.

Right now, today, I am struggling with how to manage a social interaction where a guy is sniffing around me and continuously nudging up against my boundaries. Do you really think it's coming to a point where we are speaking plainly and he's saying "you can't avoid me" and I'm in a position to physically threaten him or he is physically threatening me? No! He's a sweet, adorable, gentle soul as far as anyone can tell, and he's trying to shmooze his way right into my pants with a smile. Thing about this is, a woman (I'm sure this has worked MANY times for him) who doesn't want to hurt his feelings and is full of "be nice" intentions, won't turn around and snarl at him. It will go on...and on...until he gets what he wants. Or, in the case where she does finally tell him to back off, he gets to claim it was all a perfectly innocent misunderstanding and he comes off the victim.

All along when I stiffen every time he hugs me, buries his face in my neck and goes, "mmmm" and tries to kiss me, when he sits next to me and puts his arm around me and I take it off, and when he offers to let me use his car and I say no, when he asks for access to my blog and I say no, when he cozies up to talk to me and I direct my attention at anyone and everything but him, and when he gazes at me longingly and I refuse to make eye contact with him. ALL of my nonverbal language is asking him to back off, but that's not the message he wants to hear, so he isn't hearing it. And when I finally say, "look...you want more from me than you're ever going to get, that is clear, and I'm sorry you feel that way. But you need to dial it down a few degrees, you're making me uncomfortable." And he's going to act like a kicked puppy. It's driving me mad, I don't want to be a puppy kicker!

THAT scenario is so so so much more common, Ravenscroft, than women doing judo holds to scare off blustering jocks.

And the girl I was before I was married, would have wound up in bed with this man. I know it. That's the part that kind of pisses me off. Adult me is struggling badly enough with how to handle this. If I didn't have a partner to be faithful to, I probably would not be able to stand my ground at all, actually. Because I have been conditioned very strongly to put the needs of others before my own.

And I am hardly the only woman who has. And that fact gets a lot of people (men and women both) in trouble. It's also one of the reasons we're pushing the message that consent isn't just "she didn't say no." We'd like if men would wait for an enthusiastic yes instead. It might help.

 

[Spork]

On another note?

Tonight at the BDSM club we have a "Women's Only Play Party." Pretty much every man I've encountered, and some I haven't (heard second hand from other women) has expressed that they would just love to go, and be the only man there. Whether they seem to think they'd get all the chicks, or just get to spy.

You know, when they've had Men's Only parties (and that has happened) I hadn't the slightest inclination to infiltrate them. Neither did a single woman I spoke to. We were glad a space was being created for the men. But somehow every guy is wallowing in fantasies of infiltrating ours. Not a one is thinking, "you know, I think it's good they are making a space where the women can get their party on without men being there." Not one. Even the ones who seem to generally be "respectful" of women.

Whatever this is about, whatever this says or means...I'm not loving it, gotta say.

 

[Magdlyn]

You make radically sexist assumptions.

My first lover was a brown belt in judo.

Call her Meg. Here's a story I heard for years. I was out of town with my band, & there was a party on. Meg went out with our usual crowd. There was a big jock there who was hitting on Meg, & she wasn't interested. It got to the point where she suggested he should take it elsewhere. He asked how she'd avoid him, she mentioned the judo, & he smirked about "that kung-fu shit." Our friend Vince told me, "she smiled at him, a little sadly, put her hand on his shoulder, & he dropped to his knees screaming for her to stop."

Let's just say, she knew her nerve holds.

There's no way I would've crossed Meg's boundaries, but that was from respect as an individual.

So, my feeling is that any claims to "relative physical strength superiority" shows you don't know shit about judo.

Since Meg, I have always preferred to be with women who don't fuck around. I'm calmer, & not constantly needing to monitor myself in case of some misstep. Should I screw up, I hear about it.

I come from a family of strong-willed women. Maybe life in the city was different, but we were farm workers & laborers; long stories there.

My mother was all of 5'0 & maybe a hundred pounds soaking wet. Her father was an Army lifer, for years a drill instructor, a wiry guy I emulated, & he taught her how to defend herself. She loved me, & I have no doubt she would've kicked my ass if I'd hurt a woman; even if not physically, the mere idea that I might take some action that'd piss her off has pulled me up short of abject stupidity.

I have encouraged my lovers to speak to each other, to compare notes, & to gang up on me if there are any signs that I am being a dick. The errors have been few.

Hiding behind easy claims to "sexism" of males is AT BEST an avoidance of conversation.

Well, you know I love you, Raven, but you're kinda mansplainin' a bit here. I went on at length about how my daughters' training in shaolin kempo karate came in handy at least twice (and maybe many times more I don't know about since they became adults). But just the same, no drunk naked adult man should be sexually attacking a virgin 13 year old at a birthday party in the middle of the night when she was innocently sleeping.

Another time I was raped and not just attacked with intent to rape: I accepted a ride home from a boring party from an acquaintance. The town was about 10 miles from my home and I was unfamiliar with it. He took me to a side road in some woods and I was forced to give him a blowjob. Even if I knew martial arts, I was in the dark, didn't know exactly where I was, no houses in sight, prior to cell phones. I was afraid for my life, basically. I knew he could overpower me or maybe even had a weapon such as a knife on him.

I spit his cum out the window in disgust but was afraid he'd take offense at that and still hurt me/cut me. Lucky for me, he was satisfied and just drove me home. When he dropped me off, he said, "I'll call you," as if it had been a first date or something!

 

[vinsanity0]

Spork, sometimes ya just gotta kick that puppy in the balls.

I'm seeing that we, meaning us normal guys, don't have this power. It has to be given to us. It's a lot like bdsm. Subs have the power. They give it to the Doms. It's a power exchange. If you are not willing to come right out and say you're not interested, then you are not communicating. Not everyone can understand non-verbal communication. So what if he acts like he's hurt or claims it was innocent? The point is to get him to stop. It's a lot better to quash it quickly than wait until you just explode in anger, which is what I used to do. Trust me, we can survive rejection. In fact, the obnoxious guys have probably been rejected lots.

Of course I am talking about the clueless guys. I don't know what to do about psychopaths.

Mags, how much time did the guy who tried to molest the 13 year old get?

So...besides continuing to not rape anyone, what can a guy like me do? I already call out guys when I observe bad behavior (in real life even).

 

[Ravenscroft]

Women: please make NO mean something.

I have repeatedly got in trouble for taking "no" at face value & actually stepping away, when it was meant "try harder."

Anything achieved by such a gendrist (sexist?) dichotomy ought be addressed for its effects in a polyamorous milieu.

 

[Leetah]

Vince, kicking actual, or convincingly feigned, puppies in the balls (even figuratively) tends to get one undesirable social attention. No matter that you stand there saying "He wouldn't stop jumping up on me!" while the "puppy" runs about whining or howling. One expects that "Geez, he was just being friendly, why are you such a jerk?" to be the attitude of bystanders. This is aside from feeling that one has failed to find a gentler solution.

Leetah

 

[Spork]

Spork, sometimes ya just gotta kick that puppy in the balls.

I'm seeing that we, meaning us normal guys, don't have this power. It has to be given to us. It's a lot like bdsm. Subs have the power. They give it to the Doms. It's a power exchange. If you are not willing to come right out and say you're not interested, then you are not communicating. Not everyone can understand non-verbal communication. So what if he acts like he's hurt or claims it was innocent? The point is to get him to stop. It's a lot better to quash it quickly than wait until you just explode in anger, which is what I used to do. Trust me, we can survive rejection. In fact, the obnoxious guys have probably been rejected lots.

Of course I am talking about the clueless guys. I don't know what to do about psychopaths.

Mags, how much time did the guy who tried to molest the 13 year old get?

So...besides continuing to not rape anyone, what can a guy like me do? I already call out guys when I observe bad behavior (in real life even).

We talked about the bolded bit yesterday in a class. No, actually, subs do NOT have all the power. You've got an interaction between two human beings, and both of them have power. "the sub can stop the scene at any time" SURE, and so can the Top. I've seen Tops safeword, so don't even think they don't or can't. And if it's a situation where they are playing in private, and the Top has the bottom tied up, the sub ONLY has the power if the Top is trustworthy and ethical enough to respect boundaries, and by god not remotely all of them are.

Sure, afterwards, the bottom can make a stink about a boundary violation...and maybe harm the reputation of the Top. Or, just as often, get branded attention seeking and drama making themselves if the Top is respected in the scene. The bottom MIGHT go to the hospital, but it's not that likely the Top is going to jail.

If you think that justice gets served in even a significant proportion of actual rape cases, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you, friend. And that isn't even getting into the kink scene and consent/boundary violations. I can see things as being pretty good from my own perspective because I function in a community, and I'm known and trusted, I've got social support...but so many people only play privately and have nothing to do with any kind of a community, and nobody is doing even the imperfect work of policing anything about those interactions. God, the most well known portrayal of BDSM marketed to the masses is lambasted by practitioners as being a great illustration of an abusive relationship full of consent violations and pathologizing the lifestyle, for crying out loud.

Anyhow. Though.

You aren't really seeing the point, that for me, and for many women, it's not even about how society will judge us or anything. I meet someone, I genuinely LIKE THEM, and I'm enthusiastic about them and want them to feel welcome in my social group and I want to connect. I'm chock full of positive mojo. Then some guys take that to mean, "Oh, you will fuck me, yes?" and I'm like "Damn it, why...you've just ruined it."

Now, in order to defend my boundaries, I've got to hurt the feelings of someone I want to be nice to, probably torch a friendship, create an awkwardness in our social space, I'm the mean bitch who "friend zoned" and "rejected" him.

If he would read the strong nonverbal cues I am putting out, we might not have this problem. And I'm getting damn tired of guys being like, "you can't expect me to read signals, I'm not some kind of a mind reader" because a DOG, like an actual canine goddamn dog, can read nonverbal signals, my cat can read nonverbal signals. And recent research that was done shows that in fact men can interpret nonverbal signals. They showed them, many men, videos and photos and asked for their feedback on what was being conveyed.

Men love to play stupid about this, but in fact they are DELIBERATELY ignoring these cues because for them, the pursuit of sex is more important than respecting other human beings. I heard enough talk growing up, from guys who treat it like sport, conning women out of sex and "scoring" and how women are stupid and easily fooled and a hundred other things. So you're a guy who prides himself on not being "that guy"...great. Maybe you've always held yourself to higher standards, or maybe you were totally that guy in your youth and you just grew the hell up. I didn't always behave well when I was young either, it's cool. The other thing guys can do when they are going through life not raping people, is paying attention to the mentality of the men in the world around them and for god's sakes stop repeating the party line and letting dudes off the hook for bad behavior.

You hear some bullshit? Don't smile and swallow it.

Is it socially uncomfortable to consider being in a group of men and telling them to take their "locker room talk" and shove it up their asses? Hell yes, I'm sure it is, I've been around friends making bad jokes and saying awful things, you don't want to be the "sensitive snowflake" who is "offended."

But if I've got to be socially uncomfortable just to push back against guys who think they are entitled to some kind of intimacy I don't want to give them, hey... Maybe sometimes it's just what we have to do, I dunno.

 

[vinsanity0]

Vince, kicking actual, or convincingly feigned, puppies in the balls (even figuratively) tends to get one undesirable social attention. No matter that you stand there saying "He wouldn't stop jumping up on me!" while the "puppy" runs about whining or howling. One expects that "Geez, he was just being friendly, why are you such a jerk?" to be the attitude of bystanders. This is aside from feeling that one has failed to find a gentler solution.

Leetah

So your goal is to just make the guy the jerk? It's very convenient to blame others if you don't put in the work.

 

[Spork]

So your goal is to just make the guy the jerk? It's very convenient to blame others if you don't put in the work.

The problem is that the puppy in this case isn't really a puppy, he's a man. A grown ass human being. The reason this is happening (and I've done a ton of thinking and talking about this lately) is that he is so used to being perceived as non-threatening, he's cute and small and has a soft voice, that people let him into their perimeters easily. He is very much used to being allowed to glide right by people's boundaries, because he's seen as cute and harmless.

But I'm supposedly in a community where we don't even hug without permission, where explicit conversations guide consent and behavior. What he is doing, is a little like if the following conversation happened at a social event, and the actions to follow as such:

(Two people who just met)
Top: "I am really good at flogging, and really like to do that. I'm also into needles."
bottom: "Oh, I love flogging. My favorite thing, really. Not a fan of needles though, they are a hard limit for me."

At next event, this Top walks right up to the bottom and begins to hit her with a flogger.

bottom: "Dude what are you doing?? We didn't plan a scene!"
Top: "Hey, what's the problem? If you didn't want me to flog you, you shouldn't have told you me you liked it...innocent misunderstanding... Don't overreact, it's not like I was violating your limits, I wasn't trying to stick a needle in you or anything..."

And if the bottom points out that just because she said she liked flogging in general, doesn't mean she wants to do it with him, he gets all butt-hurt and says "sure, you like it with that guy, but not with me" and sad like she insulted his value as a person.

Do you see where this is problematic?

Only instead, I had told this man, and not even directly but in general group conversation, that I enjoyed the freedom to explore friendships without jealousy or possessive behavior from my partner, and I could be friends with men, flirt, even be affectionate, and we had done this very cool negotiation that the only hard limit was genital contact between me and other dudes. (I've described this in other threads, you guys know about our own little version of OPP which is fairly monogamish.) I also told the new guy, who was drifting around a social event awkward and alone, that I think his prospects in the community are good, I think he's a good looking man, attractive, and there are women who are into his type.

He has taken this to mean he is allowed to try and get closer and closer to kissing my mouth, nuzzle and moan into my neck, ask to read my blog, offer to loan me his car, and follow me around constantly at every event gazing at me like I'm the answer to all his life's longings, whether I am hand in hand with my partner, to whom I am COLLARED, or not...and it's been getting, well, more than a bit much.

Now he could have taken all of my avoidant eye contact, stiff body language, saying no to him reading my blog, and turning my face away from his kissy lips, as indicators that "hey, maybe she isn't into me like that"...but he's not. He doesn't want to hear that answer. And because he's probably gone through his life being cute, sweet, non-threatening, he has been allowed to get away with pushing the boundaries of others before, I have little doubt.

The other thing that I, as a woman, am very used to?

The likely response when I wind up having the talk with him.

- Attempts to argue me out of my position.
- Declarations of innocence.
- Attempts to tell me the things that I did wrong to make him think what he thought.

All on top of my own desire to apologize profusely for daring to be positive and kind to him without offering him also my body as proof I actually like him, to fall all over myself apologizing for letting him think what he thought, to apologize for his hurt feelings, and to ultimately feel bad just because someone wanted and I had the temerity to not give.

I've spent my whole life being expected to bear responsibility for other people's feelings. Get hit? You must have made him mad. Get raped? How dare you leave the house looking sexy. Doing constant management on the emotional states of abusive people to render them less likely to punish me for their own bad feelings. You think this should be easy?

It is not.

 

[vinsanity0]

Spork, most guys think I am insufferable because I point out their stupidity when it comes to women. My biggest pet peeve is the guys who play the Numbers Game by hitting on every woman they come in contact with. They are a big reason guys like me can't have a normal conversation with a woman without her being suspicious.

I find it hard to believe I am vastly more evolved than the average guy. When I was younger I didn't have to actually hit on girls to get laid. I didn't realize it wasn't like that for everyone at the time. So I guess that's why I developed my "style", which has always been to wait for women to hit on me. Because of that I have only been with women with strong personalities. It seems to have skewed my whole perspective on the male/female dynamic maybe.

Anyways, if the friendship gets trashed because you have to put your foot down, that's on him. I have a platonic friend I hang out with. I have to admit that after our 4th or 5th beer I get the urge to see if ahe wants to take things further. I don't because I don't want to trash a friendship. She can be mildly flirtatious but she isn't hitting on me and I like that.

 

[vinsanity0]

The problem is that the puppy in this case isn't really a puppy, he's a man. A grown ass human being. The reason this is happening (and I've done a ton of thinking and talking about this lately) is that he is so used to being perceived as non-threatening, he's cute and small and has a soft voice, that people let him into their perimeters easily. He is very much used to being allowed to glide right by people's boundaries, because he's seen as cute and harmless.

But I'm supposedly in a community where we don't even hug without permission, where explicit conversations guide consent and behavior. What he is doing, is a little like if the following conversation happened at a social event, and the actions to follow as such:

(Two people who just met)
Top: "I am really good at flogging, and really like to do that. I'm also into needles."
bottom: "Oh, I love flogging. My favorite thing, really. Not a fan of needles though, they are a hard limit for me."

At next event, this Top walks right up to the bottom and begins to hit her with a flogger.

bottom: "Dude what are you doing?? We didn't plan a scene!"
Top: "Hey, what's the problem? If you didn't want me to flog you, you shouldn't have told you me you liked it...innocent misunderstanding... Don't overreact, it's not like I was violating your limits, I wasn't trying to stick a needle in you or anything..."

And if the bottom points out that just because she said she liked flogging in general, doesn't mean she wants to do it with him, he gets all butt-hurt and says "sure, you like it with that guy, but not with me" and sad like she insulted his value as a person.

Do you see where this is problematic?

Only instead, I had told this man, and not even directly but in general group conversation, that I enjoyed the freedom to explore friendships without jealousy or possessive behavior from my partner, and I could be friends with men, flirt, even be affectionate, and we had done this very cool negotiation that the only hard limit was genital contact between me and other dudes. (I've described this in other threads, you guys know about our own little version of OPP which is fairly monogamish.) I also told the new guy, who was drifting around a social event awkward and alone, that I think his prospects in the community are good, I think he's a good looking man, attractive, and there are women who are into his type.

He has taken this to mean he is allowed to try and get closer and closer to kissing my mouth, nuzzle and moan into my neck, ask to read my blog, offer to loan me his car, and follow me around constantly at every event gazing at me like I'm the answer to all his life's longings, whether I am hand in hand with my partner, to whom I am COLLARED, or not...and it's been getting, well, more than a bit much.

Now he could have taken all of my avoidant eye contact, stiff body language, saying no to him reading my blog, and turning my face away from his kissy lips, as indicators that "hey, maybe she isn't into me like that"...but he's not. He doesn't want to hear that answer. And because he's probably gone through his life being cute, sweet, non-threatening, he has been allowed to get away with pushing the boundaries of others before, I have little doubt.

The other thing that I, as a woman, am very used to?

The likely response when I wind up having the talk with him.

- Attempts to argue me out of my position.
- Declarations of innocence.
- Attempts to tell me the things that I did wrong to make him think what he thought.

All on top of my own desire to apologize profusely for daring to be positive and kind to him without offering him also my body as proof I actually like him, to fall all over myself apologizing for letting him think what he thought, to apologize for his hurt feelings, and to ultimately feel bad just because someone wanted and I had the temerity to not give.

I've spent my whole life being expected to bear responsibility for other people's feelings. Get hit? You must have made him mad. Get raped? How dare you leave the house looking sexy. Doing constant management on the emotional states of abusive people to render them less likely to punish me for their own bad feelings. You think this should be easy?

It is not.

Well the guy sounds like a manipulative jerk. Why are you worried about hurting his feelings?

I guess I didn't phrase what you quoted exactly right. I just think if women nipped that crap in the bud more guys might eventually learn.

I don't know what it is in our lizard brain that compels us to have to fuck. They call it thinking with the little head. If it's any consolation, gay guys are just as bad.

 

[Magdlyn]

Well the guy sounds like a manipulative jerk. Why are you worried about hurting his feelings?

I guess I didn't phrase what you quoted exactly right. I just think if women nipped that crap in the bud more guys might eventually learn.

Yeah, I wouldn't stand for that soft cozy little guy moaning into my neck! But I'm from New York near Manhattan. We are direct. Outspoken. In general. Even the women, we say what's on our minds. New Yorkers get a bad rep for being rude. But really, we are just honest and we don't take bullshit.

People from other regions, I understand, are more passive-aggressive. More, say one thing to someone's face, something else behind their backs. That's why, if you can make it in NY, you can make it anywhere. People in NY aren't gonna blow candy colored rainbows up your ass.

Not that I always had no issue what asking for what I want. I can be too long suffering... I was worse in the past. Once I turned 40ish I stopped caring so much about pleasing people. I put myself first. I am compassionate, I am kind, I am even nurturing. But I don't have time to "suffer fools gladly."

Can men not read non-verbal clues? If a dog or cat can, why can't men? Well, for the most part, dogs and cats ARE non verbal. Besides the occasional bark or meow, cats and dogs live on more subtle clues, and posturing. Body turned sideways to look bigger when threatened. Hackles raised, teeth bared. From a dog, a stare is a threat: "I see you. Don't fuck with me."

Men in our culture are trained to hold in their emotions. To deny them. To not even be able to identify them. So, if they can't even ID their own feelings, they sure as hell can't ID others' feelings, unless they are hit over the head with them like with a 2 by 4.

Women are trained to communicate subtly. We are second class citizens so we need every weapon in our arsenal just to survive. Men are alpha, they can bumble along all brash (like Trump) and be hugely successful. They get by on bravado. They bash along uncaring about others' feelings, and get rewarded (by other men) for being so brash and "ballsy." Women do great communicating with other women. One hand waved sideways, one side eye, it says it all. But it's been dangerous for us to be really direct with men. It can get you a black eye or worse. It's a fucking fine line we have to walk.

Let's kick a few men in their stupid balls. They deserve it. Wake up call time. We are coming to the point where it is safer and expedient to be direct. It's unsafe to be underground and sotto voce now.

I don't know what it is in our lizard brain that compels us to have to fuck. They call it thinking with the little head. If it's any consolation, gay guys are just as bad.

Ha. I'm like a guy in that. That is partly why I ID as gender queer. I love to fuck. I am horny every day. I'd have sex every day if I only could! (2 partners and I can't get laid every day, darn it.)

It's testosterone. BUT.

Loving to fuck, feeling compelled to fuck, does not mean it's OK to rape, or even to come on too strong to women, to get them drunk, to drive them to a dead end road where they have to fuck or face death, to make them feel beholden to have sex with you when they aren't ready, or interested at all.

Men have a responsibility, just as I do, to not "use" women (or other men) as objects to fuck into. We must masturbate. I know, it's not as fun. But we need to take the edge off, more than once a day if necessary, just to keep the horniness a little tamped down, so we don't harm a woman with our own sexual drive. Take responsibility. Simmer down. We may put our own needs first, but that doesn't mean other people don't have integrity and a separate consciousness.

I think there is a fine line we have to walk to get the best sex. We have to let it be known we want sex, but on the other hand, respect the boundaries of the people we want to fuck, and also realise that there IS more to life than sex. There is more to an attractive potential partner than his or her genitals and sexual desirability.

Good thing for me, I am sapiosexual. So, talking about interesting topics, art, music, travel, philosophy, religion, cooking, etc., is foreplay for me. Being turned on by someone's mind leads me to want to fuck them. I am totally turned off by a physically attractive person who is stupid, or unmannerly, or right wing, etc. Are men really so indiscriminate they will fuck any woman who is remotely attractive, or anything with a vagina, basically? I guess they are? Most are? Testosterone is so strong they are completely devoid of taste or preference other than "has a vagina."

All that being said, I like to be pursued by a guy. I like to feel wanted. If I like a guy, I want him to come after me. It's fun. I don't know why I feel this way. It's my submissive side. Sub space is really freeing.

On the other hand, I can also get much joy out of just "taking" someone. I'm a switch. But Topping is easier. Too easy. Being in charge is too easy. It's challenging to sit back and wait for someone else to make the first moves. But I find it more rewarding in the end. It's like.... Topping is like charging straight down an open American highway. Bottoming is like meandering in the woods in a strange country, being open to what new and strange adventures are around each bend, each tree, each boulder. It challenges me to be open and flexible. Topping leaves me with a feeling of, "Yeah, I did that. Case closed." Bottoming feels like, "He led me to this or that space, this or that feeling. Wow, that was strange, it hurt, it felt good, it was a little scary, I was led out of my comfort zone, I took a risk, I stood on the edge of a cliff, I grew as a person after that."

Ugh. Lol. It's hard being an artist and intellectual. Life is so complicated.