The story of Spork.

God, my poor Zen...he showed up late last night for all of a moment, but he had to go back to work to do a big project. He was supposed to be off and home around 10:30 or so, but he said he expected he'd be there until 2AM.

I went to a class on caning last night, which was interesting. And I talked to my Mom on the phone for a bit.

Otherwise though, life is uneventful, which is fine. Far better for life to be slightly boring, than for it to be full of disaster. I absolutely must call today and get Ninja set up with vision and dental appointments. I'm not going to bother getting him in to a regular doctor, as he seems healthy and has no complaints, at this point that seems like a good way to get us both exposed to flu and cold germs for no good reason, just going to a doctor's office. But he could certainly use new glasses and I'm sure his teeth are in desperate need of a cleaning...of course they will tell me he needs braces, again, which I can't afford and I'm not doing.

You know, I think it's nearly pointless to get braces when you are a teenager sometimes. I had them, for 4 years. And then I got them off, and my teeth were better...until my wisdom teeth came in, and now they're messed up again. Why could I not have waited until after my wisdom teeth came in, to get braces in the first place? That seems like it was a lot of suffering for not a lot of result, if ya ask me... So I am somewhat more inclined to let Ninja get those wisdom teeth grown in, before recommending to him that he get braces, as a young adult. I have known plenty of young adults who got invisalign or some other kind of orthodontics and it's worked out fine for them.

I have realized that I have a "rewards" thing through my cell phone plan for a free movie ticket on Tuesdays. Q says he is planning to have a friend over to the house tonight, and I wonder if Ninja would like to go see "The Shape of Water" with me, since I can get a free ticket and I really want to see it before it's done playing in theaters.
 
Both my boys got braces, one because his teeth were really messed up in about 4 ways and one because his bottom teeth were overlapping in front. Both of them had their wisdom teeth pulled by an oral surgeon who works with the orthodontist right after the braces went on. The younger one has a mouth like mine and the reason he needed braces was because his wisdom teeth didn't fit in his mouth. If I had gotten his wisdom teeth pulled earlier instead of forgetting about it, I could have saved the cost of braces. One reason parents do braces on teenagers is because insurance covers a lot more than they do on young adults. Not trying to guilt you about it, because since Ninja is over 18, that doesn't apply anyway, just giving you a perspective. And braces have changed a lot lately. My older son had an overbite, crooked teeth, there were gaps between his teeth, and his top and bottom teeth didn't align correctly for him to bite correctly. He only had braces on for 24 months. And because his wisdom teeth were removed early in the process, there's been very little movement in the placement of his teeth in the 7 years since he's gotten them off. Just some FYI.
 
Hannahfluke said:
Both my boys got braces, one because his teeth were really messed up in about 4 ways and one because his bottom teeth were overlapping in front. Both of them had their wisdom teeth pulled by an oral surgeon who works with the orthodontist right after the braces went on. The younger one has a mouth like mine and the reason he needed braces was because his wisdom teeth didn't fit in his mouth. If I had gotten his wisdom teeth pulled earlier instead of forgetting about it, I could have saved the cost of braces. One reason parents do braces on teenagers is because insurance covers a lot more than they do on young adults. Not trying to guilt you about it, because since Ninja is over 18, that doesn't apply anyway, just giving you a perspective. And braces have changed a lot lately. My older son had an overbite, crooked teeth, there were gaps between his teeth, and his top and bottom teeth didn't align correctly for him to bite correctly. He only had braces on for 24 months. And because his wisdom teeth were removed early in the process, there's been very little movement in the placement of his teeth in the 7 years since he's gotten them off. Just some FYI.
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Yeah, it's possible (probable) that we could have gotten that done earlier for him, mainly his issue is he's got one weird tooth, a top canine/cuspid that instead of coming in lined up with the rest, grew in FRONT of the other teeth. It's a little weird looking, but doesn't seem to cause him discomfort. At the point where we were told he should get braces, the place had this whole scheme involving thousands of dollars in cost, even with the insurance I had. It was more than I felt comfortable affording at that point, and it sort of got away from me. In retrospect, I should have taken him to a reputable orthodontist probably in about 2013 or 2014 when our money ways good.

Guilt?

I dunno. I either have a million reasons to be guilty as a mom, or rather I've come to the point where I'm just too tired for guilt. I failed my sons so profoundly in so many ways in the last several years...not least of it neglecting their medical, dental, and vision checkups, until or unless something was actually "wrong." Like broken glasses needing replacement or whatever. But not having the energy to drive them on a daily basis to keep on top of their grades and their chores and make them responsible...how I stopped planning family vacations, and we don't spend a lot of time together... How eventually since no one was willing to sit at a table with me and eat dinner, I just stopped cooking it, and everyone mostly gets to feed themselves now...not being able to keep it together with the ex, and the subsequent fallings-apart of his sanity and my own withdrawal into spending time with people who just...made me feel better. I mean, I can make excuses, but I've kinda been a shit mom during their teenage years. I know I wasn't always that way. I would say I was really a great parent until...I guess 2014 or so? That's when things started sliding downhill fast.

Now I'm just running out the clock. I cannot claim to being a great parent or even a good one, but I love them, I listen when they talk, I don't make their lives hell stressing them about this and that, I don't abuse them. It's not great, no. But I feel like, for the limited time engagement we have left, it's what I've got to offer. I haven't given up completely. Just...partially. Compared to how things used to be. Compared to the Mom I used to pride myself on being.

I'm not really beating myself up with guilt or shame, I'm just...tired. There came a point where trudging uphill got too exhausting and I'm laying in the grass now, staring at the sky. If there is a brushfire, I do what I can to put it out, but mostly I'm just waiting.
 
Spork said:
Now I'm just running out the clock. I cannot claim to being a great parent or even a good one, but I love them, I listen when they talk, I don't make their lives hell stressing them about this and that, I don't abuse them. It's not great, no. But I feel like, for the limited time engagement we have left, it's what I've got to offer. I haven't given up completely. Just...partially. Compared to how things used to be. Compared to the Mom I used to pride myself on being.
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For what it's worth, a well-known family specialist in our country claims that upbringing stops at 17, and in broken families at 14 ... meaning most of the values are ingrained before that and you can't make that much of a difference as the parent of young adults, and also meaning that in fact you should step back and allow them more responsibility for their own lives. Of course that's problematic with Q, but generally speaking, it's fine that you view your job as basically over.
 
I can relate, Spork. I feel like I've failed my kids in many of the same ways you feel you've failed yours. (Minus the medical/orthodontist issues. I did do braces on all 3 and all 3 had wisdom teeth removed after. There was some movement after but their teeth were seriously crooked before and are all much straighter now.)

Ruby (eldest) & I have a pretty great relationship now and I really like his fiancé. My relationship with Emerald has improved significantly...just that kid is floundering and I don't know how to help him. My relationship with Jade has been complicated since the divorce. I am hopeful it will improve next fall when she's away at college. My experience is that the relationship improves after they move out and have adult responsibilities of their own....hopefully, you experience that, too.

I had a therapist once tell me that a parent's role at active parenting/teaching ends around age 12...after that, it's more of a supportive role...a goal post/home base. I don't know how I feel about that, but I will say that is around the age I felt my influence slip. Parenting is just really hard.
 
Thanks, I guess it helps to hear that. I look back at my own broken family, and yeah, I had some good memories here and there during my teen years, but I was making my own self.

I just ask myself now, especially in Q's case:

What does he NEED, and where can he get it in such a way that he will ACCEPT it?

Because I could try and try to give him what I believe he needs in terms of guidance but if he has his heels dug in and won't accept it from me, or his Dad, or Zen, a particular counselor, or wherever, then it's pointless. It's just creating conflict when I want to help. Like giving him a self help book he will not read, and that he'll curl his lip at whenever he comes across it in his room. OK. Well, I'm holding off for a minute while I'm trying to sort out some things with Ninja, but pretty soon I'm getting Q into these viola lessons. I don't KNOW that he will bond with his viola teacher, and I don't need this guy to give him deep life advice (maybe eventually, if it works out like that), in order for him to be a force for good in Q's life. But you never know where you'll find that person who can make ALL the difference. I don't think it can be me, or his Dad, or Zen, or his brother...no one connected to the household. It's got to be someone on the outside. Someone he is receptive to. Just a healthy role model, or coach, kind of a person. Bit of a mentor. That is what he needs. And it's got to come to him disguised, because if I specifically presented someone to him as such, he will reject my intentions. Too much of my mojo coming through.

I had Aunt Jeanette. He needs an Aunt Jeanette. Someone unconnected to the stuff that troubles him, to help him find his way.

I lived with Aunt Jeanette for just under a year, and she changed the entire trajectory of my personality for the rest of my life. The right person in the right place at the right time can work wonders. I can try to facilitate that, but I don't think I can force it to happen. But I really hope he finds what he needs, somewhere, at some point.
 
I feel you on that, Spork.
I haven't commented about Q and his mental health problems although (or exactly because) reading about him is quite emotional to me - among other things it reminds me how difficult I must have been (and still am) to my parents with my depression. I was older (20) but still living at home and fully dependent when my mental health problems started.
I didn't threaten suicide (didn't even really think of it), ok, plus for me ;), but I still was negative, hard to be around, oversensitive, disagreeable and utterly self-centered. For years.
For me, these characteristics were simply growing out of feeling shitty and not having the energy to uphold any social masks (not to mention not seeing any meaning to it).
Most importantly, I didn't see any way out. I did take up therapy, and after a year I did improve but not as much to experience happiness and vitality every day and I still didn't see any way out.
The things that helped me eventually? Yoga, bdsm, learning about boundaries, the total turning upside-down of my value system that I experienced when encountering polyamory, accepting my emotionality, tantra, self-help, finishing my studies, spirituality? My parents don't approve of or don't understand half of them, and actually the things they try to lead me towards are often the exact opposites of what makes me happy. And that's why my inner life is basically a secret to them now. We have value clashes. So I keep it superficial.
Don't get me wrong, my parents are great parents with just a within-normal load of insecurity and a bit of emotional closeness, and pretty above average critical thinking, morality and work ethics. I respect and follow them in so many areas.
I still keep resisting some of their good advice though, even when I know it's good advice, just because it's either wrong time wrong place, or unworkable for me, or just because it's my mom and she said it so many times already. I also can't implement a lot of good advice from other people, but with parents it's special.
Do you have that voice of your mom in your head telling you what you should and shouldn't do? I do. I do not need to hear it from her in real life one more times, it has been played like a broken record in my thoughts over and over again, and generated enough guilt for me not following it for multiple lifetimes.
Yet I do realize how this works. No bad intention anywhere. And it's inspiring to see my mom work on herself and change in her own way lately -- I like to believe I've been inspiring for her too.

So I'm obviously projecting a lot of stuff on you and your son here, sorry for that. But ... helping someone with their depression is hard to impossible. Knowing what they really need is hard to impossible. That's why therapists often take this 'I'll just help create space and acceptance for you to figure out what you need' approach. I'm not saying don't try - obviously violin lessons or finding inspiring people could help. Obviously therapy can help. But if non of it does, it's not your failure.
My point is, IMHO, being a good role-model is the best you can do. Showing that people can work on themselves and grow is much more valuable than giving out books about it (although I'm totally into self-help books!). You've created a happier life for yourself over the past years. I think you can trust that this is a good example, and while your sons may not be in a place take inspiration in it now, they surely will at some point in their lives.

Wow, that got long. I hope it's not unwelcome. Anyway, as always, I wish you best of luck. Feel free to PM me if there's anything more personal in there.
 
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It's not unwelcome in the slightest, and I appreciate it!

The "voice of Mom" thing...I don't know. There have been times she has given me good advice, and then there are times, she and I have very different um...ways of living? She is more expressive of emotions, has different views on relationships, vastly different taste in partners, and makes life choices I find baffling. I'm cool and calculating and take a long view of everything, normally. I am, emotionally, fairly subdued. In fact, the more strongly I feel something, the quieter I normally am about it. If I am talking, it's because I'm thinking, not necessarily because I'm feeling. Though feeling does prompt a lot of thinking sometimes. I guess I'm saying that there is a big buffer of thought between my emotions, and words and actions. My Mom lacks that buffer almost entirely.

I can hear in my mind what she'd think about Zen, though, because she used to tell me her opinions of my boyfriends a lot. She'd think it's kind of gross that I'm with an "old pervert." I would need to remind her that I do not like young, pretty, dumb people or those who barely speak English so much, that I prefer older partners, and that I am also a pervert, in a way, and certainly in ways that make Zen and I well matched. The lack of intellectual engagement I saw in many of her relationships is "gross" to my sapiosexual self. But my Mom isn't a very typical Mom, any more than I'm a typical daughter.

She's glad I'm happy. She worried at first about my enjoyment of BDSM, and said that she has protective feelings about me, and that's why it concerns her. But we've had many talks since about the lines between hurt and harm, and what I am getting out of this. And of course I have glowing things to say about how wonderful Zen is for me.

Everyone, absolutely everyone, except maybe Old Wolf's family (with whom I no longer speak) is glad I'm not with my ex anymore. It was obvious to all, how unhappy I was with him, even when I was fooling myself about it.

I'm off subject here...drifting...it happens... But yeah, I don't find Q insufferable to deal with really, I feel a frustration, much as I did with his Dad, that I care about someone and they are hurting themselves (and sometimes me) emotionally, and I can't help. I want to help. Beneath every instance where he is difficult, is his own sweet self and he really is a good kid. There are layers of confusion and teenage drama swirling around him now, is all. Also, I really cannot help but laugh at some of the things he says and does, even when he isn't trying to be funny. Well. I don't always laugh where he can hear me. Like when he wanted to come home from school because his stomach was growling very loudly and it was embarrassing, probably due to gas, but also his friend has bronchitis, and he doesn't know what that is, but it sounds bad and maybe he's got that, too. Or he might catch it. Another day he complained that his veins hurt, but he figured it was a growing teenager body thing. Which just...seemed so odd and random.
 
Yesterday I did some financial stuff I'm happy about. I opened new accounts at a credit union because my bank got bought by another bank and my new account type at the new bank, will charge fees and have very few ATMs I can use surcharge free. I hate fees. Screw that! So, now I am a credit union member person. Go me.

Then I also did something I have been considering. I put $100 of my birthday money into a crypto currency. It is a big enough amount that maybe I can see an interesting return, and a small enough amount that losing it won't make me pull my hair out. I didn't go with Bitcoin but rather, one of the alternate coins that intrigued me. Reputable exchange, reputable currency, not that it means I won't lose my money or anything. It's gambling, plain and simple. I'm not normally a gambler, but I'm curious. There have been many things in the past that my inner voice told me I should participate in, and I talked myself out of it, and it later made other people money...so we'll see what happens. In the bigger picture I am just tired of sitting on the sidelines, whether I have had good reason to all my life or not. I want to play for a change.

Hey, Zen. I "bought a lottery ticket." :)

Last night Zen and I went to a discussion group. It was nice to get out and chat and network and such a bit. Of note, Jersey guy asked for access to my blog here. I said no. It is the latest in a long line of um...micro...no, not microaggressions lol...micro expressions?...something...that make me feel like he wants wants wants more than I am willing to share with him. I've been thinking I need to talk to him. I am just dreading putting a hurt look on his face. Zen mentioned that I sent mixed signals. Well maybe I did, when I told him that I found him attractive or in the warm attitude I have presented to him. But I also thought I've said clearly that I'm not seeking other partners, not poly, and devoted to Zen, and other things that would get it through that I like you but I'm not going to DO anything about that. And this goes back to what I complain about with the "outside" world and how people are...the assumptions.

If I say I like you, it means I am fond of you.
If I say I find you attractive, it means I enjoy your appearance, voice, or other characteristics.

Nothing means, "I wish to partner up with you for play, sex, etc" unless THAT is what I say to you. Do you see how I flirt with like 10, 20, or 50 people at every party? Do you think I have a willingness to do anything more than that with ALL of those people? That they've all got some sort of a...a chance? If only they were to pursue it?

*sigh*

Though...maybe I'm doing him a disservice though, because he has not explicitly asked for anything. Just these weird little nudgy behaviors that say, "I want to share something special with you. Let me in."

Fact is, I have come to the realization that I'm not and never have been very good at establishing and maintaining boundaries, with anything other than avoidance. I don't like to be mean, I always want to be nice. I want to make other people feel happy and good. Lift them up. The idea of delivering a rejecting statement in any way, and likely hurting a sweet person's feelings, does not appeal to me. And my subsequent feeling of mild anger (as defined by the book I just read) that I cannot simply be spared the experience of this, that he's going to make a puppy kicker of me...that my nonverbal cues of disengagement are being met with nonverbal cues of longing and desire... All of this makes me want to basically just avoid him.

Honestly I'm also bringing forward some anger at the fact that many of the sexual encounters I had in my lifetime happened because I didn't feel like I had a good enough reason to say no. To echo something I talked about elsewhere and I'm contemplating right now, in the face of this kind of persistence, in my youth, even if my gut was saying "I really don't want to"...if I did not feel I had a reason to say no, I often simply went along with it. Invariably I neither enjoyed, nor suffered, from the act itself...it just was...but it frustrates me I've always felt like saying no is mean, and unless I can back it up with good reasons and find some way (impossible) to do it that doesn't crush the guy under the weight of rejection, I'm being a cruel person. Anger is in the idea that if I deny a man's entitlement to enjoy my body, I am in some way wronging him. That in order to be kind I must give him what he wants whether I particularly want it or not.

I suppose I should not have told Jersey guy that the one boundary was genital contact. I gave him reason to believe, I guess, in saying so, that he could have whatever else he wanted? Mixed signals?

But our community is supposed to be one where people have to ask for consent. Not one where "my relationship has this rule" can be taken to mean, "OK I can then feel free to pursue you right up to that line, since that's where you said it was drawn." I mean...just because I tell someone that needles are a hard limit, doesn't mean they get to push me for a flogging scene. Right?

Why is it, that I feel like being so nice and friendly and open to people as my nature makes me want to be, socially, has created a situation where I don't feel entitled to have boundaries, or agonize over enforcing them...like maybe others I've known, like Old Wolf, who said you can't just go around being friends, especially with men, they'll want things and feel entitled to them...maybe he's right, and maybe in a sense this has to do with my reluctance to have and nurture close friendships despite really wanting to. I'm always afraid people will ask more of me than I feel ok giving them, and then I'll go through this and I'll have to either be mean, or vanish.

Boundaries are hard. It would be so much easier to disappear. But I need to handle this in a mature way, and that's not what that looks like. *sigh* Damn it.

(Disclaimer: I have just started shark week. I might be feeling more melodramatic than usual today. I will do nothing, and wait, because there is a good chance I will find more reasonable ways to see things and feel about things, at a later date. Fortunately I am not attending anything where Jersey guy is likely to be for a bit, I don't think.)

Oh. Also. This blog isn't on private internet property, so of course if someone I know finds it on their own then...so be it. But I have told only very few people in my real life, where it lives. I am 100% ok with any of THEM reading it, who already know where to find it. I ask however that you don't tell others where to find it, without checking in with me first.

The people who know where to find this, also know me well enough to know when I am processing and what I say is not the final word on my position. I should hope.
 
Just realized that I am going to a class on Sunday at the club, it's being run by the woman who used to actually run the club and she hasn't been back in a long time. I really want to go, to support her in this and to be there for her return to Voodoo and to show her the art I made that was at least somewhat inspired by her.

The class is on kissing and making out. There will be opportunities, for those who want them, to partner up and demo or do "hands on" I am sure. And Zen cannot be there because he has to work, but Jersey guy will be.

When I thought of this earlier, I was looking at the RSVP list and actually contemplating, since I noted that Hefe would be there, if I could see about getting partnered with him to "block" Jersey guy. I don't want to make out with him, I'm not comfortable with that. Hefe is a former partner, a dear friend, and someone I completely trust to respect my boundaries. I was thinking, I should talk to Zen about this idea, maybe ask Hefe if he'd be willing, perhaps beg Fire for a loan of her husband... And it hit me about ten minutes ago... No. NO. I don't need to get a man (even one I regard as highly as Hefe) to step in and help me with my boundaries. That is a lame-shit way to handle this. I don't need to make out with anybody, if the only person I really WANT to be making out with is Zen. (Or maybe one of a small handful of women I really like a lot.) No. I need to stand up for myself, and I think this event is going to put me in a position where I will need to.

I constantly decry the way people do things "outside" of my community and I am acting just like that. I need to walk my talk, and live the values I've been working so hard to build.

Probably a lot of people won't understand why this is a hard situation for me to deal with appropriately. But dealing with challenges is how we grow, and it's time for me to do that, I think, or at least it will be on Sunday.

The funny thing? When I had that moment of revelation where I thought, "no fuck this, just say no to him. Say no to everyone. Be there and observe, you don't have to make out with anybody. My god." It felt like a weight lifted off my chest. I sure do have a way of making things more complicated for myself than they need to be...
 
So Zen is having some job stress and worry. And I think that having a girlfriend adds layers to this. I think there is a bit of fear that job loss could make me see him differently or even leave him, or something. Or at the least that I am counting on him now that we live together and he worries about holding up his end of things...I would say it's entirely reasonable to concern oneself with making sure one's obligations do get met. But the more nebulous stuff I hope I have reassured him about.

I am not the kind of person who is all about career and ambition in that regard, or is overly impressed with a man who is. I mean, I dream of being able to make enough to live on, in a field of work that makes me happy and feels like I'm doing things I am meant to be doing, using my best strengths. Even if that never makes me wealthy, it would be so gratifying to have a career in something creative or social, the two areas where I feel most happiness and accomplishment when I do well. THAT is some ambition I can get behind. Even being an artist that is never rich or famous, but managing not to starve. That's cool. I'd love, alternately, to have just...basic financial security. And to that end of things, a job is a job is a job. You do what you need to do, get what you can, pay your bills, try to get ahead or at least keep your head above water. Jobs come and jobs go. That's just life. As long as you're surviving, you're doing alright. Otherwise, the wheel of fortune turneth as it will.

And man...I put up with an awful lot with the ex. He really struggled to hold a job. And I didn't even really LIKE him. At the end, sure, his joblessness was part of our problems that caused our relationship to end...but it was never great, never full of love like I feel for Zen, and ultimately it wasn't just him being unemployed. It was him sitting around the house going bonkers and behaving badly, smoking pot and drinking constantly, and refusing to even TRY to get work or to volunteer or to do anything purposeful at all. And most importantly, treating everyone badly because of his own flagging sense of purpose and mental health. That's not cool. That goes way beyond just losing a job.

I can't imagine Zen doing that. I just can't.

And the worst case scenario financially here, isn't a disaster. Thinking numbers...we should be ok. He would be able to get unemployment, I'm sure, and he can get by and make his obligations without necessarily making as much as he does now, so he should be able to find something else when he needs to. I just don't think that this whole thing is the end of the world, even if he gets fired, and besides....he kinda hates this job. Maybe he could find something better.

Significantly I don't think he is accustomed to the notion of having a partner who has his back. Who is part of his team, willing to help, to come up with ideas, to get him on her health insurance, to generally try and ease life's bumps and jolts in any way possible. He's been on his own for a long time, so he hasn't experienced all of the benefits of having a life-partner sort of person. Well he's got one now! I'm really happy actually, to be that for him, because he brings a great deal of happiness and good to my life.

So tonight I have a women's only play party I'm going to. I don't know if I will play or just socialize. I'm ok with either. It being shark week now and all... Ehh, I dunno. But I've signed up for a shift on the door, so at the least I'm showing up to help out. In all honesty I might leave early because I think I want Zen time more. We'll see. Probably depends on who shows up, too. I can think of a few ladies I'd happily just sit on couches and chat with for a few hours. *shrug* We'll see.
 
I worked the door for the Women's Only Play Party, and then spent the rest of the evening pretty much chilling with a friend and having some conversation, and watching the activity in the dungeon. I didn't play.

I had a lot of really wonderful time, conversation, and sexual fun with Zen over the weekend. It's good to be in love. Sometimes I feel like I should devote more of my blog to talking about that, but it's hard to put into words...it's simple but it's not, I just have really big feelings for him. Words fail me. There are times I want to crawl all over him like a bug. I can't get enough. We have made it well past 2 years now, and my feelings for him have not diminished at all.

The showdown I expected at the Kissing & Making Out Class yesterday did not happen. I thought we'd have a time at the end where people would be pairing off and trying techniques that the class leader showed us. That didn't happen. In fact, the class really had little focus on the subject as described. "Making out" is...fairly intuitive. I guess. It would up being a class on getting and respecting consent more than anything, and the discussion-group-effect took over at some point, and we were then just talking about the business of consent and boundaries, how to get a yes and how to take a no, and all sorts of things like that.

So Jersey guy did not have the opportunity to corner me and try to get me to make out with him. And I did not have the opportunity to tell him no, nor to have the discussion that really should happen, about how I need him to back off with the bids for an intimate connection with me. Frankly, this is not all about me, either, I would love for him to succeed and find happiness and fulfillment in our community, but he just isn't going to get that with me. He's wasting his time focusing so much on me, and he needs to put that energy into connections that might actually get him somewhere.

Now that I think about it, this might actually be happening. There was a woman there, sitting by him, and I did not assume they had a connection, but when I was outside smoking after the class, they came out of the club at the same time, and she said something to him before she went to her vehicle, and he came over and said his goodbyes...maybe he has connected with someone. I don't know. I hope so. I would feel let off the hook, if such were the case, but I know I've got work to do in how I interact with other people, in respecting my boundaries better than I have.

Just thought of a parallel actually. Remembering in dating, the fact I wished I could express loving feelings to someone when I felt them, without them freaking out that I was getting all serious, I sadly realized it's just the way things are that I've got to do a little dance and play a little game and keep things to myself until I give the other person time and we each figure out where the other stands, and we then can both say it at the same time when we're on the same page. Because feeling something for someone who doesn't feel it back...even if you don't NEED them to, and even if you don't intend to escalate the relationship...feels intrusive. Like too much. You can't just be genuine, and let them be genuine, and be where you are. That really has gotten to me in the past. And the same thing, I find someone nice and fun and attractive, I can't just say those things so that they know someone is seeing value in them, they won't find it uplifting, they'll see it as an invitation to TAKE something I didn't offer them. Guess I have to keep my positivity to myself? Act like everybody is shit unless I'm willing to hand them the keys to the kingdom? But that isn't the person I want to be, though.

I don't want to play games. I don't want to be closed off or guarded to people. I want to be able to put positive mojo into the social world around me, just for its own sake. But I guess the more common thing is that interactions between people is more often about what they can get and take from each other, not genuine basic appreciation detached from expectations, hopes, or entitlements for gain. Is it too much, to hope for, to try and be a small force of change, throwing pebbles in the pond?
 
Haha I'm laughing to myself a little bit, Spork. You aren't making a distinction between how men react to a compliment from a woman, and how a woman reacts to a compliment from a woman.

Women can be very complimentary to each other, and it can build our self esteem. A woman can tell another, oh your eyes, your hair, your breasts are so lovely. What conditioner do you use, what moisturizer, what kind of bra do you wear, do you take a certain vitamin? It doesn't mean, can I feel you up, can I put my fingers in your vagina?

But tell a straight (or bi) guy, your biceps are great, your ass looks good, you're funny, you're attractive, you're smart, and he thinks, Oh, that means I can kiss your neck, rub your boobs, put my dick in your vagina.

But since I'm well and truly bisexual, I have to respect boundaries with other women. If I say to someone, you have a lovely rack, your hair is beautiful, it may or may NOT, be sexual. If she's straight, it's just talk. It's me saying, I want to learn how to do my hair that way, get my ass in better shape, how do you do it? But if the other woman is gay or bi, it may be one or the other. It may just be talk, supportive or educational. But, if she's gay or bi, it may mean we are going down the road to sex. That's when we have to rely on more subtle cues. This is more than just "girl talk," this is or could be, courtship behavior.

With a straight guy, it's all courtship behavior. This guy in question, he thinks/hopes you're flirting, and he is horny, he wants to get laid, so he is understanding your compliments as a real gesture on your part to get him to think he can put his dick in your vag.

You telling him you're open to anything but genital contact merely means, OK, I can't fuck her vagina. But maybe I can fuck her mouth, her armpit, get a hand job, put my dick between her feet, between her boobs. And he'll take when he can get. lol And maybe, just maybe, you'll change your mind and let that dick slip into your vagina at some point.
 
Magdlyn said:
Haha I'm laughing to myself a little bit, Spork. You aren't making a distinction between how men react to a compliment from a woman, and how a woman reacts to a compliment from a woman.

Women can be very complimentary to each other, and it can build our self esteem. A woman can tell another, oh your eyes, your hair, your breasts are so lovely. What conditioner do you use, what moisturizer, what kind of bra do you wear, do you take a certain vitamin? It doesn't mean, can I feel you up, can I put my fingers in your vagina?

But tell a straight (or bi) guy, your biceps are great, your ass looks good, you're funny, you're attractive, you're smart, and he thinks, Oh, that means I can kiss your neck, rub your boobs, put my dick in your vagina.

But since I'm well and truly bisexual, I have to respect boundaries with other women. If I say to someone, you have a lovely rack, your hair is beautiful, it may or may NOT, be sexual. If she's straight, it's just talk. It's me saying, I want to learn how to do my hair that way, get my ass in better shape, how do you do it? But if the other woman is gay or bi, it may be one or the other. It may just be talk, supportive or educational. But, if she's gay or bi, it may mean we are going down the road to sex. That's when we have to rely on more subtle cues. This is more than just "girl talk," this is or could be, courtship behavior.

With a straight guy, it's all courtship behavior. This guy in question, he thinks/hopes you're flirting, and he is horny, he wants to get laid, so he is understanding your compliments as a real gesture on your part to get him to think he can put his dick in your vag.

You telling him you're open to anything but genital contact merely means, OK, I can't fuck her vagina. But maybe I can fuck her mouth, her armpit, get a hand job, put my dick between her feet, between her boobs. And he'll take when he can get. lol And maybe, just maybe, you'll change your mind and let that dick slip into your vagina at some point.
Click to expand...

I know, and frankly it bugs me. Hell, there is a woman at the club... I'm bi, though obviously leaning somewhat straightish, and she is bi, too, I believe, or pansexual probably, and she has done some scenes that really exposed all of her parts, and I thought "My god, her body is like...perfect." I mean, I'm really critical of the appearance of my ladybits, yanno? It's a point of some sensitivity to me. I know, I know, they are all different, and normal and variety and yay vaginas and all that. But I've got in my mind what I wish mine looked like, and they don't look like that and that isn't ever going to change. Hers...are my own idea of perfect. I feel a combination of admiration and envy.

But my envy or jealousy feelings don't engender anything negative at her. I don't hate her for having what I wish I did, I only hate myself for not having it, or I feel...diminished. I can admit, it's not a pleasant quality, a sort of egotism really, I guess, or narcissism, this making things personal that aren't. What I feel toward her, in this specific instance, is entirely positive, even if what I feel toward myself is not. I don't know any better way to put it.

But I also know that humans are humans, and women are women, and we are all critical of ourselves. The most beautiful women I've ever known are prone to tearing themselves to painful little bits over flaws they think they have. So I feel like, "if I have the chance to express to someone that I find some part of them appealing, I want to do that," because fuck if I don't appreciate it when others do it for me! It pushes back the negative self-talk, and affirms me. And so I am quite keen to do that for others. With no other goal in mind but to put some sincere good mojo out there for them.

And so, I told her, she has the most beautiful lady parts I've ever seen. She awkwardly thanked me, but did not assume I meant anything further by it.

Women can do that. Even that. You're right. If I wanted more than that with her, I would be going more out of my way to spend time around her, and I'd be asking her if she wanted to come over, and I'd be trying to set up times to spend together, and I'd be asking her if I could kiss her, or I'd be asking if she wanted to do a scene...I would be communicating not in innuendo, but in plain language. I think I'd have to.

And I think that's why I've been with so many men, and relatively few women, despite a hundred girl-crushes on women I adore and admire. Men will take the unspoken, or a compliment, or flirtation...and push to make something happen. When you're down to fuck them, that's great, I get to be lazy and they'll do a lot of the work of making an encounter become a reality. (Zen was quite the exception to this, because I spent 2 months sending signals that he didn't believe could possibly be real; I had to message him and say, "If you are waiting for consent...you have it. Want to have sex?" lol! But it's a big part of my love and admiration for him, he's not a typical guy...the rest try to sell themselves as different, and most of them aren't...he really is.) Women, though. You can send signals back and forth all day and nothing might come of it, because we're both used to a male doing the "push" to make a thing happen, and if neither of us pushes, then nothing happens. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.

I do think that many men in our community are absorbing some of the messages that indicate a need for clearer communication and consent, and not to assume that A means B. But Jersey guy is still kinda new, which is why I don't place his actions in a predatory or boundary violating category, but more of a frustrating misunderstanding I need to clear up, but dread doing so because it's likely to be uncomfortable for us both.
 
Well, I got the vision stuff taken care of for Ninja and also got new lenses in my glasses. But I need a filling, and he needs a bunch of 'em, so we go back to the dentist next week. After he recovers from all that, we need to schedule with an oral surgeon to have his wisdom teeth out, two of them are coming in really wonky and my dentist believes it will be best done under general anesthetic (which he doesn't do.) So. The whole Job Corps thing gets pushed to the right a little bit. But we're gonna get done what we must, because it's better than sending him off only to have him develop painful dental issues.

I get to enjoy my Zen tonight, he's not working, and I'm really thankful for that.
 
I've decided to go to First Fridays tonight. This is kind of perfect. Zen won't be there, I will be there, I'm almost 100% sure Jersey guy will be there. I'm going to ask if I can use the dungeon space for a private conversation, and take him aside for a chat. Why is this all so damn perfect? The timing couldn't be better, I've got a discussion group on Sunday where the topic is "boundaries." Ha! I will generate some fodder for my contribution, I am sure.

I feel pretty good about this. I think it will go well. I've got a good idea of the things I want to say to him.
 
I just had an interesting experience on my last break.

A man, and a trans man, came out to the smoking area. They work for the office upstairs, which is a different company than the one I work for, and it's a call center. So the people who work there, can be kinda...colorful. (I refer to their behavior, not to the trans man, in saying so.)

I overheard them loudly talking, it would have been hard NOT to overhear them. The trans man was chewing out the other man, because the other man got passed over for a corner office, and didn't fight for it. The other man was the manager in charge of the trans man. And he told this manager, he felt ashamed to be on his team, because he wouldn't stand up for himself, and said, "I'm going to call your wife tonight and tell her not to suck your dick, because only a real man deserves to get his dick sucked." Literally said those words, to his manager, out in the smoking area.

Ya know, I was uh...pretty shocked. And I'm not an easy person to shock.

I think this behavior is inappropriate no matter who is saying it, but I also think that a cis man saying something that inappropriate to a female coworker would be risking a lot more, in terms of work consequences.

And particularly in light of Jersey guy and how I believe that he's gotten away with boundary pushing behaviors in part because he is small and cute and inoffensive looking. As compared to some of the bigger, scarier looking men I know, some of whom actually overcompensate for being outwardly perceived as threatening, by being way over the top sweet and nice...

There is a certain PRIVILEGE that exists in not being perceived as threatening to other people. I've seen women in bars during ladies' pool, get rambunctious and wild in ways I usually don't see men doing. Getting away with groping other women, in ways men could not, because it's assumed that this woman isn't a threat.

And I think this trans man, who is still a small and slim person and who has a voice that still is a little womanish, is used to having the female privilege of being able to sling some vulgarity and aggressive behavior without it coming off as serious as it does when a (typical cis) man does it.

Anyways, I'm finding it just another interesting...thing...to contemplate today.
 
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Had some interesting conversations with Zen this weekend.

There has been nebulous...stuff...floating around in my emotional landscape that I haven't wanted to look at too closely. Sometimes it's just easier not to work on things that are complicated, to think instead about easier stuff. The Jersey guy problem was "easy stuff." My discomforts there weren't hard to figure out, and the "what should I do about this?" question was easily answered. Though I still have not found the opportunity to talk to him, he didn't show up to things this weekend. I could wonder if maybe word got back to him through some channel that he was making me uncomfortable, and so he's vanished as a response to that, but it's just as likely that he got busy with work or had a health or family issue. There's no telling, so no use guessing, and the world doesn't revolve around whatever is related to me of course. If he shows up at some point, we'll talk. If he disappears, well, it's a shame, but I hope he finds happiness.

No, the heavy stuff was with regard to Worm King and my lingering thoughts about him, and the state of non-poly in my relationship with Zen (the "One Penis Policy" and yes, I know, there are always issues with that, and no, I'm not the magical exception here...though I try to tell myself otherwise.)

1. The Worm King. Why do I continue to sometimes (and notably only sometimes, not remotely always, nor even often) think about him and miss what we were doing?

A.) Because I don't actually want a relationship with another person. I don't want to carve out the time and space in my life for it, and my relationship needs are ABUNDANTLY met. Worm King is not a relationship kind of guy. One simply cannot have that with him. One can, MAYBE, every several weeks or months, get together for an evening of conversation and sex. That is all he does, and he doesn't grasp for anything more. So when I feel sexually restless (when the insatiability factor kicks in) he seems like um...supplemental dick? In my mind. That's silly, but there it is.

B.) Out of 44 male partners, exactly 2 have really pushed the right buttons for me. With Worm King it was a spark, but a strong one. With Zen, it's a conflagration. But others? Well, they were fun, but there was always something missing. I am guessing that's the "natural Sadism" streak in these men. But regardless, I have zero interest at all in other guys in my world that I have, or haven't had sex with, except a little bit of lingering...something...slightly like a sore tooth, for Worm King. But I wouldn't give up Zen for him, for anything, for any or all of the men I could possibly have. No one is like Zen. If having Zen, means not having others, I'm coming out on the winning end, and I'm well aware of that fact ALWAYS.

C.) I think that part of my restless feelings, when I'm alone and Zen is working late, is simple boredom. It feels a lot like being hungry, but not knowing what you want, and having a full kitchen but nothing appeals. My Zen isn't home and I'm wandering around and I can't settle to anything. I could clean, but don't feel like it...could do art...don't feel like it...could watch TV...nothing is on...could read...I've read my books a million damn times... Even masturbation is unsatisfying and a nap feels like a waste of time, and anyhow I'm full of restless energy. It's a hungry mind more than a hungry heart. And Worm King was interesting. Intellectually stimulating.

So I think that's what's behind the fact that he crops up in my mind occasionally. It's not a longing of the heart. It's not pining for an emotional thing. It's a restlessness that is both sexual and intellectual, when I am forced to be apart from Zen due to our schedules and can't seem to entertain myself.

You know what is actually the best balm for this? The jigsaw puzzle I'm working on right now. I'm serious, it is. It's exactly that kind of thing that really helps.

And I don't realistically want anything to actually do with the Worm King. Not only is he a total flake, in ways that are just unacceptable (not very respectful of my time or scheduling, back when we were trying to get together in 2015) but also, I don't trust him to be ethical and safer with sexual health practices. He is a no go on a bunch of levels. So I might have thoughts now and then, but I do nothing about them.

Also, I know that even if Zen could find some way to agree to "let" me he would not be happy about it. It would hurt him. I am protective of his feelings. I do care about that, but I don't like the idea of making decisions because of that, and I'll get to that piece in a bit.

2. The "OPP" situation.

A.) I mentioned to Zen I'd like to think of it more in terms of "neither of us will have sex with another partner without the informed consent of one another" because it feels somewhat fairer than "<Spork> isn't allowed to..." Yes I know he isn't likely to give consent, at least not without being totally backed into a corner and that would be awful and hurtful, so I wouldn't consider it lightly. Certainly not in any of my present circumstances. I also know that he isn't very likely to find another woman who "checks his boxes" the way I do.

We're just...monogamish. And that is ok.

B.) Reality? All I really want is to date my friends nonsexually, go do things with them, which is one of those "I need to work on this" things in a long list of such in my life. And to play at parties, possibly with others. I don't feel like I am missing out on anything, in not being poly, even though it was nice to feel like I had a freedom to make my choices just for myself, when I was.

C.) Relationships do involve dealing with things that don't feel comfortable. Zen loves porn. It's not reasonable for me to ask that to stop, and even though I feel like if only I were a better lover or had a better body or this or that or whatever, sometimes, maybe he wouldn't still need it as he always has, that is not reasonable or rational. Those are feelings. I can understand very well in my mind what the reality of that situation is, but can I talk my heart out of feeling what it feels? I doubt it. I've tried. I guess what rubs me wrong, is that I could have sex or a relationship with another woman, and so could Zen, but I could not with another man (if I wanted to) BECAUSE it makes Zen feel uncomfortable...though I believe that my discomforts are my problem, that means HIS discomforts, are also my problem. I feel like the woman in this situation has to bear all of that and convolute herself around it, and the guy gets to say, "well it's only right and natural for me to feel this way. I, the man, am supposed to be reacting to every hot woman in my environment, and I'm also supposed to expect you to look at, and think about, no other man but me." Other women are ok, not a threat, not competition, because the male partner likes them, but other men are a problem, because he doesn't. His tastes and preferences have all the weight, his discomforts are to be assuaged and given all the weight...my preferences as the female partner, my needs, wants, thoughts, feelings, had better be what he wants them to be, or I'm doing wrong.

THAT is the feeling, that chafes me, and that I want to avoid, conceptually. That's why it's a problem. The whole, "My discomforts are my problem. I need to deal with them. His discomforts are also my problem. I need to live by a set of rules to make sure he doesn't feel them." situation....that FEELING...is a residual thing from my past. It is not Zen making me specifically feel this way exactly, it's whenever anything strikes an echo off of the machinery that has been built over my lifetime, I feel almost panicked. And then quickly, I stow it away and don't think about it, because it upsets me and it doesn't feel fair, and I don't want to deal with it, and I'm just being difficult, complicated, processing, my god will she ever stop... And Zen doesn't deserve to have to deal with this shit...

I have to sort through all of that. It's my own stuff. It goes deep. It's a mess. I'm sorry I am not easy and pretty through and through, and it's all...this...stuff... I mean who wants to be dragged through it? I don't want to deal with it, and it's my own head.

But. Zen and I made a start, even if it began with both of us feeling a little bit ambushed.

And then we had the wonderful sex, and the wonderful snuggles and the sharing of activities and so much bonding and time together, until I felt so full of his good energy that there was not ROOM for anything else, and I didn't CARE about any of the complicated blahblahblah of figuring out in words, why the fuck I am uncomfortable with the way things are, when I actually don't even WANT anything that isn't allowed. The question of "wtf is my problem?" is very easy to set aside when he is making me feel wonderful...which is every time I'm in his presence, or have any contact with him at all.

Or when I'm working on a jigsaw puzzle, I guess.
 
This post resonates with me, Spork. Blue & I are trying to make a go of it again. Part of doing that is my agreement to a OPP. He never handled my dating other men well before. And my preference at the moment is for a gf, not another bf... so I agreed. Even when we didn't have the OPP, I dated other men infrequently, so it felt like a minor concession when I made it. It was my choice and I really am not up for another man at the moment but it does chafe a bit. Especially since his relationship with his LDR gf is deepening and they are spending twice as much time together as when I agreed to the OPP (as in 2 out of 5 weeks instead of 1 out of 5...during which time we have minimal contact at best, because her preference is isolated relationships.) Obviously we have other issues that amplify the discomfort I feel regarding the OPP.

The discomfort I feel is the same one you mentioned...the disparity in the amount of personal work and emotional labor between Blue & I...which is a recurring theme in other areas of our relationship. That doesn't seem to be the case with you & Zen...it sounds like it's isolated to this one thing. So, while the disparity is not fair or equitable, in your case, I would probably be ok with it. In my case, I'm finding myself increasingly not ok with it.
 
PinkPig said:
This post resonates with me, Spork. Blue & I are trying to make a go of it again. Part of doing that is my agreement to a OPP. He never handled my dating other men well before. And my preference at the moment is for a gf, not another bf... so I agreed. Even when we didn't have the OPP, I dated other men infrequently, so it felt like a minor concession when I made it. It was my choice and I really am not up for another man at the moment but it does chafe a bit. Especially since his relationship with his LDR gf is deepening and they are spending twice as much time together as when I agreed to the OPP (as in 2 out of 5 weeks instead of 1 out of 5...during which time we have minimal contact at best, because her preference is isolated relationships.) Obviously we have other issues that amplify the discomfort I feel regarding the OPP.

The discomfort I feel is the same one you mentioned...the disparity in the amount of personal work and emotional labor between Blue & I...which is a recurring theme in other areas of our relationship. That doesn't seem to be the case with you & Zen...it sounds like it's isolated to this one thing. So, while the disparity is not fair or equitable, in your case, I would probably be ok with it. In my case, I'm finding myself increasingly not ok with it.
Click to expand...

A thought I had this morning, after I wrote that long ass post, so I didn't add on any further at that point...was that I'm also still doing work to figure out who I am, and what my needs are to be emotionally and psychologically healthy, in the years following a long stretch of really bad habits in my life, and an unhealthy dynamic in my marriage. Magdlyn mentioned somewhere she believes I have PTSD from that relationship...I don't know if I'd go quite that far, but I definitely have unprocessed junk that surfaces sometimes.

Part of that process is figuring out my philosophies and values and aligning my life with them.

And it is hugely involved in me feeling like I have a NEED to pay some attention to myself, and make space in any relationship for my feelings and thoughts and needs and such to...matter. I remember too clearly the feeling of panic, like I was chained physically, the same feeling that you get when you need to get a garment off and you cannot seem to escape the damn thing and you feel trapped...only I felt like my identity, my personhood, my rights as a human being, were under constant threat, because my ex did not recognize them. Because I was managing his stuff constantly so there was no room for me there.

And I guess this is a piece of the puzzle, in that I need to feel like I'm doing things for MY OWN REASONS. Not to manage my partner's emotional state and guarantee him perfect comfort and security.

My readings of Buddhist sourced ideologies don't suggest that one should reasonably be working to manage other people's feelings at the expense of our own, either.

I don't want to be doing things for the same old reasons that I did in an unhealthy relationship. Accepting the OPP because it's what Zen wants, feels uncomfortably like what I might want is unimportant as compared to his comfort and security. And my comfort and security is taken for granted. It's mine to manage. Take it back further than that, and I struggle to ask for what I need from men that I care about. Probably a childhood thing, I wanted affection and recognition from my Dad and he became more and more absent as his marriage to my Mom was falling apart. And I remember being a teenager and learning to be bisexual so that my boyfriends could look at other women, and I could be like, "Hey, it's cool, I like her too. I'm cool like that. I don't nag like other girlfriends do." Give everything, ask for nothing.

The fact that Zen is so giving really throws me off my game. Our relationship is amazing, but I've started realizing that like...I seem to need affirmations that he desires me, because he's not...using me for anything. He's just giving, and I'm not used to that really. I don't know what to do with it. Sometimes I need him to tell me what he wants, so that I know he wants ME.

Also, when I was poly, and living on my own, I felt like I was reclaiming myself and my ability to make choices FOR myself. It was scary at times, but...it was also healing.

So, making my sexual decisions based on good sense and what I know I need and want and is good for me...that is different, somehow, even if the results of it are the same.

The restlessness is another thing, and probably the easiest solution to that is for me to just buy more puzzles or do more projects or...something.
 
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