Help! Newly opened couple. Need advice.

[justonepeanut]

Hi all,
So my wife and I recently opened up our relationship to Polyamory. A little background on us: We have been together for about 14 years, and although we talked in the past about swinging or polyamory, we always just kind of never looked for anything actively, and had said if we one day found something that maybe we would make a move on it. About a year ago (October) there was a Halloween costume party where we ended up having a drunken hookup with another couple. It was fun and a one night thing, no regrets as everyone was in one bed together and everything was very open.

We got a taste of something we liked and tried to pursue more with that couple. Long story short, the woman was Polyamorous but the man was just kind of a playboy who wanted to use my wife for sex and then quickly moved on. This left her hurt and angry and also upset me because it sort of cut short the relationship that I and the woman were beginning to form.

We moved past that and learned from it. We had returned to a Monogamous lifestyle until recently, when my wife mentioned that a long-term friend of ours had piqued her interest and she wanted to try Polyamory with him. I was a little skeptical in the beginning because our last thing had ended so badly. There are also outside stresses that I’m experiencing due to work, her quitting her job to go back to school and family members who are aging and needing care and attention.

After her first visit with our friend, things feel (from my perspective) like they’ve began moving very fast. I should add here that he lives about 2.5 hours away, so when she goes to see him it is not a simple 10 or 20 minute drive. It costs us extra gas money out of our budget and it causes her to want to spend extra time with him because it is such a long trip (which I get). It also takes more time away from our relationship. But I digress.... Within the span of 2 weeks either she has been to see him or he has been over here 4 days. And they’re planning to meet again in a couple of days. I should also mention that within that same timeframe that I’ve been at work for several days at a time (I work as a firefighter and am away from home for 24 hrs at a time). So my days with her are precious to me and already have felt thin, and now she is gone even more. (Sorry that last line is a little bitchy, it’s how I honestly feel.
So again, long and short of things, it has caused me pain (which I tried to shake off as normal first-time jitters) to know that she is having sex with another man. I can honestly say that if it were a woman, i don’t think it would cause me to feel this way.
I have tried explaining that what she is doing hurts me and I’ve asked her to pause or slow things way down while we try to find some counseling and figure out why I’m feeling this way. I don’t dislike the guy. He’s totally cool, and I know he will respect her and treat her better than the guy in the drunken swing situation did. I don’t distrust her (I don’t think). I can’t say that we don’t have some old baggage though. Again, some backstory: when we were newly dating (circa 2005), she ran into an old flame and asked to get coffee with him. They ended up kissing each other and he confessed his love to her. She ultimately told me about it and I forgave her. As far as I know, she’s never talked to the guy again. So I can’t say that we’ve never had a problem, but it was a long time ago and I don’t think I’m dwelling on that.... just added it here to give a full picture.
So she seems so obsessed and like she is chasing the high/excitement of the new relationship that she’s marginalizing our marriage.
It has caused me to have a severe mental health episode and I am still not sure that I’m really better. I’m actually feeling desperate to be honest. Im not sure if I can endure this style of relationship. I want to be open to it, and I’ve tried to analyze the “why” of what is causing me to feel pain.
I’m afraid that it may lead to a divorce if she isn’t willing to slow things down and/or make me feel like I matter to her again. I don’t want that. Not in a million years. I still love this woman but I’m afraid that I’m falling out of love with her.
She says that she doesn’t feel like anything has changed from her perspective, only that she’s grown by adding more love to her circle.
I feel like he and she have both gained while I’ve lost time that we had together.
I’m at the point of moving out and filing for divorce if she isn’t willing to pause the relationship with our friend.
I guess what I’m asking for is any advice that you can all offer.
Am I being unreasonable? I’m still not saying that we can’t pick things back up where they are, just that I want to work on a few things and understand what’s causing the pain before it kills what we’ve worked on for so long.
BTW: we are looking for a therapist near Vancouver, WA or Portland, OR if you all know of any (we found one but he is booked up for 6 months at the moment). We also have a couple of great books on the subject that we are both reading, The Ethical Slut (both about 2/3 done with this one) and More Than Two (haven’t cracked this one yet). We also want to attend a poly support group but haven’t made it that far yet.
The best comparison I can give from my point of view right now is that it feels like she is addicted to a drug (or alcohol, whatever) and I’m asking her to stop and she’s just flatly refusing. I can also say (to clarify) that I think group swinging may be more my speed/preference, but she has said that she feels too controlled or not trusted by that. Also, she has mentioned that she feels that the cause of my pain is that I don’t trust her. I don’t feel it’s a trust issue from my end, but her feelings are valid and need to be acknowledged.

Sorry for the huge post, thanks for any insight or wisdom that you all can share.

Best regards,

Cory

 

[Magdlyn]

Hi all

Hi Cory. Welcome to the board.

My wife and I recently opened up our relationship to Polyamory. A little background on us: We have been together for about 14 years, and although we talked in the past about swinging or polyamory, we always just kind of never looked for anything actively, and had said if we one day found something that maybe we would make a move on it.

About a year ago (October) there was a Halloween costume party where we ended up having a drunken hookup with another couple. It was fun and a one night thing, no regrets, as everyone was in one bed together and everything was very open.

We got a taste of something we liked and tried to pursue more with that couple. Long story short, the woman was polyamorous but the man was just kind of a playboy who used my wife for sex, and then quickly moved on. This left her hurt and angry, and also upset me because it sort of cut short the relationship that the woman and I were beginning to form.

So this experiment showed you that playing as 2 couples is difficult because it's complicated to try and mesh the desires of 4 people at once. It was a decision to break up with the woman you liked just because the man wasn't seriously interested in your wife. In polyamory, as you now know, even coupled people often don't expect a magical quad to happen. One on one dating is much more practical and possible.

We moved past that and learned from it. We had returned to monogamy until recently, when my wife mentioned that a long-term friend of ours had piqued her interest and she wanted to try polyamory with him. I was a little skeptical in the beginning because our last thing had ended so badly. There are also outside stresses that I’m experiencing due to work, her quitting her job to go back to school and family members who are aging and needing care and attention.

So, you didn't feel it was a right time for you to do poly, but your wife went ahead with it anyway, since she had a crush who was willing to date her despite her being married. She went ahead with it despite you expressing your unreadiness (I assume). Generally polyamory is best practiced when everyone involved is joyfully consenting. It sounds like you consented but not wholeheartedly.

After her first visit with our friend, things feel (from my perspective) like they’ve began moving very fast. I should add here that he lives about 2.5 hours away, so when she goes to see him it is not a simple 10 or 20 minute drive. It costs us extra gas money out of our budget and it causes her to want to spend extra time with him because it is such a long trip (which I get). It also takes more time away from our relationship. But I digress...

Within the span of 2 weeks either she has been to see him or he has been over here 4 days. And they’re planning to meet again in a couple of days. I should also mention that within that same time frame that I’ve been at work for several days at a time (I work as a firefighter and am away from home for 24 hrs at a time). So my days with her are precious to me and already have felt thin, and now she is gone even more. (Sorry that last line is a little bitchy, it’s how I honestly feel.)

So again, long and short of things, it has caused me pain (which I tried to shake off as normal first-time jitters) to know that she is having sex with another man. I can honestly say that if it were a woman, i don’t think it would cause me to feel this way.

Do you know why that is?

I have tried explaining that what she is doing hurts me and I’ve asked her to pause or slow things way down while we try to find some counseling and figure out why I’m feeling this way.

But she refuses to slow down at all, I take it? Have you stated this perfectly clearly? You feeling abandoned, not happy about the gas money, etc.?

I don’t dislike the guy...

I don’t distrust her (I don’t think). I can’t say that we don’t have some old baggage though. Again, some backstory: when we were newly dating (circa 2005), she ran into an old flame and asked to get coffee with him. They ended up kissing each other and he confessed his love to her. She ultimately told me about it and I forgave her. As far as I know, she’s never talked to the guy again. So I can’t say that we’ve never had a problem, but it was a long time ago and I don’t think I’m dwelling on that.... just added it here to give a full picture.

That is a very long time ago, and yet you find it comes up in your mind now that you're upset.

She seems so obsessed, like she is chasing the high/excitement of the new relationship so much that she’s marginalizing our marriage.

It has caused me to have a severe mental health episode and I am still not sure that I’m really better. I’m actually feeling desperate to be honest. I'm not sure if I can endure this style of relationship. I want to be open to it, and I’ve tried to analyze the “why” of what is causing me to feel pain.

Maybe you haven't read yet about NRE, new relationship energy. It's like infatuation. It's a common hormonal state in new relationships, where the excitement is extreme, leading to a certain brain chemistry that causes something like an obsession. It can cause issues in partnered people new to polyamory. It can cause people to neglect their established partner. I don't know if it helps to know you are not alone in being in this situation. Your wife (who needs a nickname) and her friend (who we also recommend a nickname for) are both experiencing uncontrolled NRE.

With experience, many polyamorists learn to be aware of their NRE and make sure to not neglect their established partner while feeling it.

I’m afraid that it may lead to a divorce if she isn’t willing to slow things down and/or make me feel like I matter to her again. I don’t want that. Not in a million years. I still love this woman but I’m afraid that I’m falling out of love with her.

Yeah. It's only been 2 weeks of this experiment. Probably some slowing of her roll and some counseling is a better idea at this point.

She says that she doesn’t feel like anything has changed from her perspective, only that she’s grown by adding more love to her circle.
I feel like he and she have both gained while I’ve lost time that we had together.

I'm sorry she's got tunnel vision from her NRE and isn't hearing you.

I’m at the point of moving out and filing for divorce if she isn’t willing to pause the relationship with our friend.

I don't think it's time to file for divorce yet, but moving out for a while might send a strong message. I assume there are no kids involved who need your care?

I guess what I’m asking for is any advice that you can all offer.
Am I being unreasonable?

No, you aren't. You're hurt. You're frightened. You feel neglected. You fear losing her to another man. You think maybe you've already lost her forever so you may as well divorce. You feel desperate. Those are your feelings and thoughts. Your feelings are valid. Your thoughts are confused.

She's got NRE and isn't listening to you. Her feelings differ from yours, and she is too swept up in her excitement to take your feelings to heart.

I’m still not saying that we can’t pick things back up where they are, just that I want to work on a few things and understand what’s causing the pain before it kills what we’ve worked on for so long.

BTW: we are looking for a therapist near Vancouver, WA or Portland, OR if you all know of any (we found one but he is booked up for 6 months at the moment). We also have a couple of great books on the subject that we are both reading, The Ethical Slut (both about 2/3 done with this one) and More Than Two (haven’t cracked this one yet). We also want to attend a poly support group but haven’t made it that far yet.

I didn't find Ethical Slut so helpful. More Than Two is good. The best one out there is for couples is Opening Up. I am glad your wife is at least willing to read some books on the subject. I'm sure NRE is addressed in MTT, if not in Ethical Slut.

The best comparison I can give from my point of view right now is that it looks like she is addicted to a drug (or alcohol, whatever) and I’m asking her to stop and she’s just flatly refusing.

That is exactly what is happening. Her brain chemistry is altered.

I can also say (to clarify) that I think group swinging may be more my speed/preference, but she has said that she feels too controlled or not trusted by that.

And that is valid. Some people are polyamorous. Some people are just polysexual. Although you seemed to have developed feelings for that woman one year ago.

"Group swinging," as I mentioned above, can become lopsided, as you experienced yourself. And yes, if you only want your wife to have sex while you are having sex, in a swapping situation, it can seem like you want to keep an eye on her in hopes it will protect your original couplehood.

Also, she has mentioned that she feels that the cause of my pain is that I don’t trust her. I don’t feel it’s a trust issue from my end, but her feelings are valid and need to be acknowledged.

Those aren't "feelings," those are thoughts and hopes. You have stated it's maybe a tiny bit of mistrust stemming from 15 years ago, but it's mostly that you feel neglected, almost invisible, and that she is also neglecting her household duties (and eldercare perhaps).

From her perspective however, it must feel great to have a man pursuing her, since she's probably been lonely for many many nights due to your job requiring you to be gone for a day or two at a time.

You two have work to do. This is a good place to vent and get empathy. Your problems are extremely common. You're not alone.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry you are struggling with poly hell stuff.

I agree with Mags. Just too much piled on, then this gungho NRE thing.

You have firefighter schedule, her stopping work to go back to school, eldercare. Each of those by ITSELF is a big stress thing. Much less clumped together. That's not like 1+1+1 makes three. It might make 4 because you have to count 1 for "ugh, and not like stand alones, but in a pile!" stress.

Then the stress of adjusting to poly rather than some one night thing? That's another stressor.

Now you are thinking if this doesn't calm down maybe divorce. That's another one.

Where ARE you on the stress scale really?

Where is she?

https://www.stress.org/holmes-rahe-stress-inventory

Is this the BEST time to be doing poly? Because time and energy is a finite resource. You only get 24 hours to spend in a day. Love might be infinite but time is not.

She sounds like she's caught up in NRE. And because she's chosen a "short distance" long distance thing and the cost of gas and all... wants to make every visit "count."

Rather than focus on whatever she's doing over there with him?

Tell her you would like to make date times with her. Your work and stress has you feeling disconnected. And you would like to reconnect. Focus on what YOU need on this side of the V.

And let her handle her own problems on that side. If she's attending to you and attending to him and learning how to be a hinge and balance both sides? Allow some space for the learning curve.

And resist the temptation to dump blame on the new dude. It's easy to blame the "outsider" or the "other relationship" as the cause of the stress. Maybe even more comfortable.

But it is your WIFE choosing her behaviors and if she just sucks at her time management? That's not the new BF doing it. It's her. She may end up discovering she might be WILLING to do poly but is not ABLE to do poly well. But let it be her discovery.

Then she cannot fight with you and flip it around on you like you are raining on her parade. IME? NRE people don't always LISTEN. It's not just "love is blind" but "love is blind and deaf."

She says that she doesn’t feel like anything has changed from her perspective, only that she’s grown by adding more love to her circle.

Don't get sucked into making be about "love." That is subjective and to me? It's like a murky area side trip people get into.

Instead ask her how her time management and calendar things have changed lately. Because that IS objective. And if she's spending time on drives over there? Spending more gas money. That IS something that changed.

Over here we have 4 accounts. All joint in case one of us dies.

But one is "fixed spending." Like the mortgage. Always the same. So I do the autopay bills out of that.

Another is "flex spending." Like groceries. That can change. Not always the same.

Another is "DH Allowance." He can do whatever with it and I don't complain.

Because another is "GG Allowance" and I can do whatever and he doesn't complain.

Then the house bills are all on track and if he buys tons of music and I go out lots with my friends? It only affects the individual doing that spending.

Like time? Money is not infinite. So... maybe think about how you want to handle funds so as not to cause strain or stress on the marriage. If she's broke in her acct? Too bad. Learn to do cheaper dates then. But nothing to do with you or the house bills. All her problem.

I feel like he and she have both gained while I’ve lost time that we had together.

You have lost time. Because you no longer have "automatic dibs" on her free time.

In recent past, did you take the time to ask her out and get on her calendar? Or just assume? That's an adjustment for some couples. To go back to actually asking each other out again.

I’m at the point of moving out and filing for divorce if she isn’t willing to pause the relationship with our friend.

After only 2 weeks? BREATHE.

Unless more was going on in the marriage before this? Or venting some frustration?

Am I being unreasonable? I’m still not saying that we can’t pick things back up where they are, just that I want to work on a few things and understand what’s causing the pain before it kills what we’ve worked on for so long

You say a woman wouldn't bother you as much. How come? What is different?

Other than time loss, what other jealous things are there? (Jealousy = I have something I am afraid someone else will get or take away.)

You used to have dibs on her free time. Now you have to actually schedule. She will too if you start swinging on your side. It's part of the price of admission.

Is there envy things? (envy = someone else has stuff I want for myself.) Sounds like you envy him having her pink fluffy clouds NRE attention. When was the last time the marriage got some of that kind of energy? Has it gotten in a rut?

BTW: we are looking for a therapist near Vancouver, WA or Portland, OR if you all know of any

That's a good first step. Keep looking. See if any do online appts via Skype or something in case you get seen sooner like that.

We also have a couple of great books on the subject that we are both reading, The Ethical Slut (both about 2/3 done with this one) and More Than Two (haven’t cracked this one yet). We also want to attend a poly support group but haven’t made it that far yet.

Also good.

How about Non-violent communication? Marshall Rosenberg is on youtube and does many books but I like this one best.

Living Nonviolent Communication: Practical Tools to Connect and Communicate Skillfully in Every Situation

https://www.amazon.com/Living-Nonvi...communication&qid=1568293921&s=gateway&sr=8-6

Here's the method cheat sheet.

Here's feeling inventory.
https://www.cnvc.org/training/resource/feelings-inventory

Here's need inventory.

https://www.cnvc.org/training/resource/needs-inventory

The best comparison I can give from my point of view right now is that it feels like she is addicted to a drug (or alcohol, whatever) and I’m asking her to stop and she’s just flatly refusing.

New Relationship Energy IS like a drug. There's hormones and brain chemistry stuff going on.

https://consciousreminder.com/2017/06/27/amazing-brain-science-love/

Which is why I suggest you to STOP talking about that side of the V and let it be her problem and let it run its course.

If one dating partner is a strain, ask if she will agree to date this guy but not MORE new people.
Not be like kid in a candy store.

And instead talk about THIS side of the V. And not like you are trying to hamstring her or prevent her from seeing the friend. But because THIS side needs its fair share time and care also. Don't be so eager to secure the new relationship that the established one is taken for granted.

If she wants to have two partners, great. So... where's the date time on this side? Is she willing on her part to manage her time better? And you on your part will remember you aren't the only person on her dance card so you DO actually have to ask her out or agree to a standing date. Not just assume.

I can also say (to clarify) that I think group swinging may be more my speed/preference, but she has said that she feels too controlled or not trusted by that.

So maybe it could be swinging on your side and poly on hers? You go swing on your own. She does poly on her own.

Also, she has mentioned that she feels that the cause of my pain is that I don’t trust her. I don’t feel it’s a trust issue from my end, but her feelings are valid and need to be acknowledged.

Agree that you don't trust her huge right now.

You have NEVER see this side of her, because you have never done poly before with her. So you don't know how she is and handles herself.

You would LIKE to trust her. And it would help you if she took it slower.

Like...

My youngest is about to take out learner's permit. I WANT to trust the teen driver. But I've not been driving with this one yet. I do NOT feel great if I'm in the passenger side and they go ZOOOOOOOOM down the street. They might have an idea of how it is supposed to go, but no actual experience. They have never driven! So... slow please, in this empty parking lot. Then we can move on to residential streets with little traffic and grow from there.

I assume she was once a new driver. Framed like that can she see your side better? You DO trust her small and WANT to trust her big.

How would she like to help GROW the trust in this new poly area?

Because she has to grow trust in YOU too. That you won't hover, that you won't act out like a jealous bear, etc.

You don't sound unwilling to try. Just sorting stuff out and wishing she would chill some and maybe both communicate with each other better.

So rather than talking like "trust" is this on/off light bulb switch?

Talk about it like a plant you are both trying to grow together. It's here. A small plant. Now what? How can it grow bigger? What can each one do for it?

I trust my teen not to be a nutjob. Otherwise I wouldn't even take them to do the learner permit! Small plant trust.

But they don't get their own car or even a set of car keys to the family car they practice with. That's BIG tree trust and that has to be grown over time.

Galagirl

 

[vinsanity0]

I don't think she needs to slow down. Rather, she needs to schedule her time more wisely. There are plenty of opportunities for her to schedule her time with the other guy around your work schedule. This just doesn't occur to her yet because of the NRE. A gentle nudge in that direction might help.

Something you wrote jumps out at me. You "forgave" her for choosing you over an old flame? Him expressing his love for her was out of her control. She chose you. That should be in the pro column, not the con column.

Now it's only been a couple weeks and you are ready to jump to divorce. Sounds like you are catastrophizing a bit. Give yourself some time to get into the groove. Transitioning takes some time. It took me months to get in the right frame of mind when my wife and I first opened our marriage, and I am predisposed to non-monogamy.

Of course, you may decide poly is not for you. Then you need to cross that bridge when you come to it. For now give yourself some time to process.

 

[GalaGirl]

To clarify -- I meant slow down long enough to talk calendar with existing partner. Slow down long enough to better organize her schedule and time management.
She doesn't have to stop dating the new fella.

And slow down. Not just leap to divorce.

This seems to the biggest sore spot at this time:

Within the span of 2 weeks either she has been to see him or he has been over here 4 days.

Like not enough ALONE time with wife because she's gone or here's this BF over. So not alone.

And they’re planning to meet again in a couple of days.

Are you feeling like "And where do I fit in now in your schedule, wife?" Justonepeanut?

I should also mention that within that same tieframe that I’ve been at work for several days at a time (I work as a firefighter and am away from home for 24 hrs at a time). So my days with her are precious to me and already have felt thin, and now she is gone even more. (Sorry that last line is a little bitchy, it’s how I honestly feel.

Maybe Justonepeanut can describe his work schedule in a 2 week thing? Does your schedule stay same days or jiggle around in rotation? I know nothing about firemen schedules.

But I can sense that it frustrates you that she's not accounting for the fireman schedule so she has time to spend with you too. It's not like a 9 to 5 gig.

She needs a learning curve space and time with the new person... but you need reliable connection time with her too.

How to best balance those things? Slow down long enough to figure that out so you both weather out this NRE phase better.

Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

To clarify -- I meant slow down long enough to talk calendar with the existing partner. Slow down long enough to better organize her schedule and time management.
She doesn't have to stop dating the new fella.

And slow down. Not just leap to divorce.

Like not enough ALONE time with wife because she's gone, or the BF is in their house.

Are you thinking, "And where do I fit in the schedule now?" justonepeanut?

That's a thought, not a feeling.

Maybe justonepeanut can describe his work schedule over a 2 week period. Does your schedule stay the same days, or jiggle around in rotation? I know nothing about firemen schedules.

I can sense that it frustrates you that she's not accounting for the fireman schedule so she has time to spend with you too. It's not like a 9 to 5 gig.

She needs a learning curve space and time with the new person, but you need reliable connection time with her too.

How to best balance those things? You could both slow down long enough to figure that out, so you both weather out this NRE phase better.

That was my meaning too.

And one more thing to consider is, does Cory want the new bf, who is his actual platonic friend, having dates and sex with his wife in his own house? Is that uncomfortable? These are all common things poly couples need to figure out, that takes calm comfortable respectful communication. That entails "slowing down" from a mad headlong rush into infatuation and the "la-las."

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Cory,
It sounds like you have five main concerns: your wife is

• dating another man (rather than a woman),
• taking it way too fast,
• spending less time with you (of what little you had),
• getting caught up in NRE,
• neglecting your marriage.

You need her to change one or more of the above five things, so that you can breathe and get your bearings. Otherwise how can you stop and figure out where the pain is coming from, if it's overwhelming pain? Ask her which of the five things she'd be willing to change.

You would prefer group swinging, rather than poly, but she refuses to do that. When she first asked to start dating this man, your gut instincts warned you that it was a bad idea. You ignored those instincts because you love and trust your wife, and want to make her happy. But now Pandora's box is open, and she refuses to close it again. If I were you, I'd feel regretful about originally giving my consent to this, probably even resentful that she took advantage of my goodwill. Tell her how you feel.

Here are some resources for finding poly-friendly therapists:

• http://openingup.net/open-list/
• http://polyfriendly.org/index.php
• http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=333894
• http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?p=333927
• http://www.lovemore.com/whydonate/polyamory-professionals/
• https://ncsfreedom.org/resources/kink-aware-professionals-directory/kap-directory-homepage.html
• http://therapists.psychologytoday.c...edium=link&utm_campaign=topnav_find_therapist

If you can't find a poly-familiar therapist, but can find an open-minded therapist, ask them to read, "What Psychology Professionals Should Know about Polyamory," a 36-page booklet by Geri Weitzman, Ph.D., Joy Davidson, Ph.D., and Robert A. Phillips, Jr., Ph.D.

Hopefully that helps.
Sincerely,
Kevin T.