When 3 become 4 .....

L

ltasn

New member
So, things have been going really well in our little cosy shuffling into polyland. MrJ has finally settled down, MrsJ and I have become really good friends, much to MrJ's amusement sometimes.

I will preface this by saying I am a 16 hour flight away from the J's. MrsJ is well and truely monogamous at this point but is in 100% support of MrJ and myself. A meet up is in the pipe line for next year :D but we have a kitchen table type thing going on (if skyping in counts lol) and the couple of complications that were leftover from pre coming out days are mostly sorted.

Enter MsL. MrsJ and I am trying our hardest to make MsL feel welcome but we are failing miserably. The main problem is, and this is full on ALL MrJ's fault, that MsL and MrJ had a sleepover meet up recently (she is 4 hours flight away from the J's). Neither MrsJ or I had ever spoken to MsL and our reactions were mixed and varied over the weekend. During the weekend, MrJ adds MsL to our group chat. We have all discussed what bad timing this was, but the consequence is, she read back over out chat to "get a feel of us" before talking to us and now feels like an intruder or a zoo exhibit (her words). Both MrsJ and I have read over the chat and can't work out what was said that she has got this from (she was not mentioned in the chat at all, neither was the then upcoming weekend much).

MrJ would love us to all get along and her to become one of our inner possy. She is quite..high strung.... and I am trying to engage, I really am but she has already started causing drama and I am not sure how to handle it.

Any advice? I admit, objectively speaking, we probably look like a tight little group to an outsider, but we are excited to get to know her but I just feel I take 1 step forward and 2 steps back atm.

Todays drama was because MrJ had shared with me a gift she had sent home with him for his kids (I happened to be skyped in with the family caos when the kids received it.) :confused:

ETA: the latest drama was he didn't drop everything (i.e. a phone call to me and dinner with his family) to answer her call.....
 
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Let me repeat back what I understand in my own words. You correct me if I get it wrong.

BACKGROUND

  • MrJ and Mrs J are married.
  • You are MrJ's LDR partner who is 16 hours away.
  • The three of you have settled into kitchen table poly as much as is possible with Skype and things.
  • You and MrsJ are friends.
  • MrsJ is monogamous for herself, but poly supportive

RECENT BEHAVIORS

MrJ started dating MsL.

  • MsL is 4 hours away. Without checking in, MrJ just up and added MsL to the private group chat for the 3 KTP people. Surprise to you and wife.
  • Without checking in, MrJ just up and had a sleepover meetup with MsL. Surprise to you and wife.
  • You and MrsJ have mixed feelings about him doing this like this. You would prefer he do his calendar stuff like _____ and at least ____ about the group chat. You have/have not made him aware of these preferences.

Meanwhile, MsL also has behaviors you don't love.

  • She read back over the group chat and now feels like an intruder or exhibit at the zoo. (How do you know this? She say so? MrJ? She has some feelings. And....? Not really yours to solve. Nobody asked you to do anything. And really if she's upset because her new BF dumped her in a group chat without her knowing? That behavior she can resolve with him.)

  • MsL sent a gift with MrJ for his kids, and she's mad you were on skype when he gave it to them to open. (Her problem to sort with him, not yours.)

  • Ms L is mad at MrJ because he didn't drop everything to answer her call when he was already doing dinner with his family and a call with you. (Her problem to solve with him, not yours.)

CURRENT PROBLEM

  • MsL seems high strung to you and kinda drama.
  • You aren't sure how to handle it.

Why do you have to handle anything? Who is making requests of you?

If the problem is that MrJ keeps telling you TMI details about his new relationship and it makes you annoyed hearing about it? Tell him to stop.

And that he can solve his MsL things between them. You don't have to be his relationship coach on the side on that one.

If this is the first new person he is dating since you? Let him work it out and shake out the kinks himself.

Like don't be mean, but don't sweat it either. Be basic polite. But if you see drama brewing don't run to jump in it. You aren't the one who picked out a drama person to date. It's his deal.

And if she makes drama about the fact that yeah... she's dating a guy who comes with 2 other partners? Well, she and him can sort that out. Or break up because it is not working out.

MrJ would love us to all get along and her to become one of our inner possy.
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And for that to happen it has to be all people voting "yes." Not just him. He can want/wish it, but that doesn't automatically make it so.

He sounds like in his excitement to make it all be a tight 4 people thing?

He's not giving you and wife enough info for time management. Maybe oversharing info about whatever little thing is bugging her. So it affects your adjustment time.

And maybe rushing her too. Which affects her adjustment time.

He could chill some maybe. Let it unfold how it wants to unfold and not try to MAKE it be a certain way. YKWIM?

Galagirl
 
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GalaGirl said:
Let me repeat back what I understand in my own words. You correct me if I get it wrong.

BACKGROUND

  • MrJ and Mrs J are married.
  • You are MrJ's LDR partner who is 16 hours away.
  • The three of you have settled into kitchen table poly as much as is possible with Skype and things.
  • You and MrsJ are friends.
  • MrsJ is monogamous for herself, but poly supportive

RECENT BEHAVIORS

MrJ started dating MsL.

All correct

  • MsL is 4 hours away. Without checking in, MrJ just up and added MsL to the private group chat for the 3 KTP people. Surprise to you and wife. Yep
  • Without checking in, MrJ just up and had a sleepover meetup with MsL. Surprise to you and wife. No the sleepover was planned, discussed at length and supported by us.

  • You and MrsJ have mixed feelings about him doing this like this. You would prefer he do his calendar stuff like _____ and at least ____ about the group chat. You have/have not made him aware of these preferences.

see above

Meanwhile, MsL also has behaviors you don't love.

  • She read back over the group chat and now feels like an intruder or exhibit at the zoo. (How do you know this? She say so? MrJ? She has some feelings. And....? Not really yours to solve. Nobody asked you to do anything. And really if she's upset because her new BF dumped her in a group chat without her knowing? That behavior she can resolve with him.)

I know because she told me. We (MrsJ and I) have been making an effort to get to know her. I was chatting to her separately and things were very up and down during the chat and this was one of the things she told me she was feeling. She's not upset per se she is upset as for some reason she thinks that we resent her? I don't actually really know

  • MsL sent a gift with MrJ for his kids, and she's mad you were on skype when he gave it to them to open. (Her problem to sort with him, not yours.)
Yep, and I agree, I jst hate seeing MrJ so stressed about it all
  • Ms L is mad at MrJ because he didn't drop everything to answer her call when he was already doing dinner with his family and a call with you. (Her problem to solve with him, not yours.)

    CURRENT PROBLEM
    • MsL seems high strung to you and kinda drama.
    • You aren't sure how to handle it.

    Why do you have to handle anything? Who is making requests of you?
    No one is making the request, but if I have to interact with her, online at least, then I need to be at least civil

    If the problem is that MrJ keeps telling you TMI details about his new relationship and it makes you annoyed hearing about it? Tell him to stop.

    He hasn't done this, so not an issue

    And that he can solve his MsL things between them. You don't have to be his relationship coach on the side on that one.

    If this is the first new person he is dating since you? Let him work it out and shake out the kinks himself.
    Yes it is. I think that is the issue here. I have just sort of fit seamlessly into their lives and they mine and this is much more bumpy

    Like don't be mean, but don't sweat it either. Be basic polite. But if you see drama brewing don't run to jump in it. You aren't the one who picked out a drama person to date. It's his deal.

    And if she makes drama about the fact that yeah... she's dating a guy who comes with 2 other partners? Well, she and him can sort that out. Or break up because it is not working out.



    And for that to happen it has to be all people voting "yes." Not just him. He can want/wish it, but that doesn't automatically make it so.

    He sounds like in his excitement to make it all be a tight 4 people thing?

    I think this is spot on. It has been a little bumpy for him with some related stuff but that is mostly resolved now and I think he just wants it to all be fine and dandy between all of us.

    He's not giving you and wife enough info for time management. Maybe oversharing info about whatever little thing is bugging her. So it affects your adjustment time.

    And maybe rushing her too. Which affects her adjustment time.

    He could chill some maybe. Let it unfold how it wants to unfold and not try to MAKE it be a certain way. YKWIM?

    I agree. The issues, and those that came out of the weekend have had some positive though, in communicating and workshopping them the 3 of us have grown closer and settled more into our relationship. I know some has been discussed with MsL but I am not sure of the outcome of that

    Galagirl
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  • Thanks for the blunt clarity :)
 
A few things:

I would consider it a huge violation of privacy if someone added a new person to an ongoing group chat. That’s basically giving them unfettered access to listen in on your conversations for the last ___ months/years. MrJ sounds like he has really poor judgement. If he wanted his new girl to be able to chat with all of you, he could have simply created a new chat with everyone in it.

You say that you have never spoken to her — how are you learning about all this drama? Is she writing it directly in the chat? Or is she talking to him and he is passing along info to you?

If it is the latter, I would try to keep an open mind. Everything that you know about her will be filtered through the lens of his interpretation.

“ Todays drama was because MrJ had shared with me a gift she had sent home with him for his kids (I happened to be skyped in with the family caos when the kids received it.)“
—> If you are hearing about this third hand from him, it could easily be that what upset her was the realization (or perception) that you are on Skype with him “all the time” and that she feels like she could never match that level of engagement. Or, depending on how he explained things to her, it could mean that she has the perception that her gift was something he shared with you because it needed to meet your approval or something.

it.)

“ latest drama was he didn't drop everything (i.e. a phone call to me and dinner with his family) to answer her call.....“
—> Again, it seems likely that there is some room for interpretation/bias If you are hearing this from MrJ. Was she really upset that he didn’t “drop everything”? Or was she annoyed that he didn’t respond to her call and didn’t text her to let her know he was going to be busy and so he left her with radio silence for 16 hours?

Who knows? Communication is hard — particularly in a new relationship and particularly long-distance. Details and nuances get lost in translation. Maybe she wasn’t even the one being dramatic — maybe that was his interpretation.

If you are getting this info from her directly (via the group chat), keep in mind that you do not know her and have not spoken to her. Again, things get lost in translation — people have different texting styles and you cannot interpret tone very easily ... especially when you have not talked in person.

I think it sounds like the most important element here is that MrJ needs to develop better boundaries. And maybe do parallel poly with this relationship until it is better settled on his end?
 
My simple answer is MrJ is a sloppy hinge.

MsL's drama can be summed up as not your circus not your monkey. She is his issue to deal with. Just because they are in a relationship does not mean it is your problem.
 
How can people have relationships primarily over group chat / group Skype? Maybe short term fascinations, but I wouldn't take anything seriously that was conducted mainly online/texting/messaging/video calling. You're not 3 becoming 4, you're one couple and two more people sitting in their living rooms.
 
FallenAngelina said:
How can people have relationships primarily over group chat / group Skype? Maybe short term fascinations, but I wouldn't take anything seriously that was conducted mainly online/texting/messaging/video calling. You're not 3 becoming 4, you're one couple and two more people sitting in their living rooms.
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Karen, just became it's not your way of doing things, doesn't mean others don't have a rich relationship primarily in an online setting. Ease up on the shaming talk, please.

Itasn, I agree with MsEmotional that adding her to an existing group chat was bad form, and it's clearly created some of the problems you're now all dealing with. But what's done is done and she's going to have to do her own work to recover from whatever she's perceived.

There does seem to be a few things that aren't your problem to resolve. I'd suggest that a phrase such as, "you'll need to talk to ____ about that directly" is a handy go to so you don't end up fuelling her issues.

All the best, from someone else in a LDR.
 
Evie said:
Karen, just became it's not your way of doing things, doesn't mean others don't have a rich relationship primarily in an online setting.
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I met my husband and also my now BF online and have enjoyed several other friends, FWBs and lovers that began online. From this experience, I am firmly of the mind that you really do not know someone until you spend most of the relationship time with them in person. I don't think anyone needs an explanation about the pot holes of online relationships. No doubt, the people involved are sincere and have enormous feelings for one another, but there is simply no way to have a complete and truly informed experience of a person unless you're primarily with them in the flesh. If you've never spent a lot of time with someone in person, you just do not know them and you don't have a feel for the real relationship.
 
You probably look like a tight little group because you act like a tight little group. Judging from your post, this is not a relationship in which all members are autonomous. It sounds like joining the "inner circle" is required in order to date one of the members. What if MsL isn't into that? It's up to her and MrJ to work out those details. Personally I would not appreciate being forced to be friends like that. I'd rather get to know someone before having all that dumped on me. And if I found out my meeting someone was, in a sense, voted on like that? I would be in the wind in a hot second.
 
Thank you for more info.

It sounds like MrJ adding her to the group chat without telling her or anyone else was jarring for all people. Could chalk it up to being new to it still, resolve not to do that again with new potentials in future, and everyone moves on.

If the main issue is the MrJ is trying to get everyone to be a super tight 4? Kinda pushing people toward that? His behavior can be a turn off for all.

Him not letting this unfold naturally at its own pace and letting it become what it wants to become more on its own? He could chill out a bit.

His ideal in his head might be a tight 4 but that requires a 4 person "yes." Not 1 person dragging the other 3 behind.

In real life, he might have to be ok with a different shape polycule than he imagines. Esp when 2 partners are LDR.

Give this all some room to BREATHE.

I know because she told me. We (MrsJ and I) have been making an effort to get to know her. I was chatting to her separately and things were very up and down during the chat and this was one of the things she told me she was feeling. She's not upset per se she is upset as for some reason she thinks that we resent her? I don't actually really know
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If she does not clearly state if she's upset or not? And the moment has passed for you to ask clarifying questions and you don't want to be "fishing" for explanations? And nobody made any actual requests of you?

Don't worry about it. Let it GO.

This is what I'm talking about with drama and not just jumping in it. Continue to be basic polite/friendly and expect adults to handle their OWN emotional management.

If she's struggling to articulate she can turn to him. He's the one she's dating. You don't have to be her support system just because you are his other partner.

Asking for help is fine. Nobody has asked you anything. If they do? You can consider ACTUAL requests people make of you and decide if they are reasonable before agreeing to do it or not.

But if she's "hinting" and being all "dramatic" heavy sighs and whatnot? That's a drag and you don't have to play that game. So don't bite and let MrJ deal with it. Your partner dating someone new is not supposed to be work for YOU.

Yep, and I agree, I jst hate seeing MrJ so stressed about it all
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Presumably if he chooses to date more people he is prepared to deal with the emotions and stresses that come along with dating. Could leave him to it.

Why does it bother you to see him stressed doing something he presumably signed up for? :confused:

No one is making the request, but if I have to interact with her, online at least, then I need to be at least civil
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Where are you NOT being civil? I don't read that anywhere. :confused:

Galagirl said:
If this is the first new person he is dating since you? Let him work it out and shake out the kinks himself.
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Yes it is. I think that is the issue here. I have just sort of fit seamlessly into their lives and they mine and this is much more bumpy
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WHO is putting this unrealistic expectation on you? That every partner he dates will unfold the same way as your story with him did?

I think it is realistic and reasonable for any new change to have its OWN story and maybe come with some bumps. It's not realistic or rational to expect perfect seamlessness from all dating attempts.

Again... just because your shared partner is dating them? Doesn't mean you have ANYTHING in common with them. Other than basic calendar talk and basic polite? You don't HAVE to hang out with them online or otherwise. They don't HAVE to have a super tight place in your life.

Some people hit it off. Some just don't. Even in metas, friendships, etc.

I think this is spot on. It has been a little bumpy for him with some related stuff but that is mostly resolved now and I think he just wants it to all be fine and dandy between all of us.
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What is NOT fine dandy? :confused:

Sounds like you hit a bump, talked it out decently enough with MrJ. That seems fine enough.

Presumably he's doing same with MsL. So.... where is problem? :confused:

Is the problem your OWN anxiety around all this?

Galagirl
 
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Thank you for the replies.

You're all right, maybe I am worrying about this for no reason. I am a very laid back person and I just detest drama llamas, I haven't got time for that crap, so maybe I have been trying to make things "right" instead of just letting it be what it will be.

Maybe we have all been looking at this the wrong way. Yes, MrJ and MsL's relationship actually has little to do with us. If it evolves, it evolves, if it doesn't it doesn't.

I have already had a long discussion with them about not poking the bear, but not changing what and how I say things after MrsJ commented she supposed now we won't have any more fun in group chat for fear or more drama.

I suppose I just wanted her to feel welcomed and didn't want us to be seen as this exclusive little group who wasn't welcome to others.

Oh and MrJ has admitted he had fcked up in all this and made some terrible decisions, and yes, his stress is of his making (I have actually said this to him more than once lol) but it is not nice watching someone you love struggle and I am the type of person who wants to problem solve.

FallenAngelina, I appreciate the differences in LDR and Rl but with respect, everyones experience is different and you are only reading a selection of words on a page, not the whole experience. But I thank you for your perspective.

This is all new to me and it really does feel like making up the rules as we go along. I really appreciate all the different perspectives it forces me to think and look at things a different way which is very helpful to order my mind.
 
FallenAngelina said:
If you've never spent a lot of time with someone in person, you just do not know them and you don't have a feel for the real relationship.
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The real relationship is what you make it. If the primary means of conducting the relationship is online then this is absolutely a real and valid relationship, and the visits are delightful additions to that. At a distance, the knowledge of the other person is indeed different than having to navigate a cohabiting relationship, but that doesn't negate that the people in that relationship are a hell of a lot more than "sitting in their lounges".
 
Hi ltasn,

One possible way to approach this would be to ask MsL directly: "What can I do to help you feel more welcome in our group?" This way MsL knows you value her perspective/opinion. You are coming directly to her for insight on what to do. This might also help her realize that you are doing the best you can, that she is already welcome by you at least. Other than that, you can just be civil and polite, and ask her how she's doing, and what's going on in her life. This shows her that you have an interest in her, and want to know more. This is only one thought/suggestion, but maybe it could help you get through the thorns with which MsL has surrounded herself. I really think you're trying, I really do. It's apparent in your writings.

Sincerely,
Kevin T.
 
Maybe we have all been looking at this the wrong way. Yes, MrJ and MsL's relationship actually has little to do with us. If it evolves, it evolves, if it doesn't it doesn't.
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Yup. Let it unfold how it will.

And how that branch works out (or not) with the other branches of his polycule? That's another process.

You're all right, maybe I am worrying about this for no reason. I am a very laid back person and I just detest drama llamas, I haven't got time for that crap, so maybe I have been trying to make things "right" instead of just letting it be what it will be.
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If you are normally laid back... what's cranking you up?

If you detest drama llamas... well, what is the drama? I've read about some discomfort as new people learn about each other, but nothing DRAMATIC HORRIBLE! Do you have anxiety "what if this? What if that?" going on?

If you haven't got time for crap... Where DO you want to spend your time? And are you spending it there?

What is "wrong" that you are trying to make "right?"

I have already had a long discussion with them about not poking the bear, but not changing what and how I say things after MrsJ commented she supposed now we won't have any more fun in group chat for fear or more drama.
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You don't have to change how you normally are in group chat. Welcome the new person, and then live as normal. If she doesn't want to do group chat right now because she got overwhelmed and it was too soon, be ok with that. Try again later. Or maybe it just isn't her thing.

I suppose I just wanted her to feel welcomed and didn't want us to be seen as this exclusive little group who wasn't welcome to others.
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You cannot control how she feels. You cannot control how she sees something. These things are all on her.

What you can do is frame your expectations of yourself in ways that YOU can do/control. Like "When he dates new people, I want to be friendly and polite to them if I bump into them."

That you can do. And it sounds like you have been meeting that.

How the new person takes it is up to them, but YOU are meeting your own expectation.

Oh and MrJ has admitted he had fcked up in all this and made some terrible decisions, and yes, his stress is of his making (I have actually said this to him more than once lol) but it is not nice watching someone you love struggle and I am the type of person who wants to problem solve.
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It's fine to solve problems. So long as they are yours, or you have actually been asked for help by the problem owner.

Be ok with things in life not being nice all the time. Sometimes the not nice is NECESSARY.

Just jumping in and trying to "fix" stuff for everyone when nobody asked you for help and it isn't really your problem just to assuage your own anxiousness?

Be easier to address your anxiety directly rather than "from the back door."

It's not the same thing, but sometimes you HAVE to let people deal with their own discomfort even if not fun to watch.

I don't do the kids' homework for them so they don't have to struggle so I don't have to feel anxious watching them struggle. How will they learn to do it?

If I get anxious watching kid2 freak out at the dentist, I give hugs. And expect them to go through with the cleaning, maybe let them bring a teddy bear. Address appropriately. Me jumping in the chair to do it for them and "fix the problems" -- what does that solve really? Their teeth will still not be done and why do I need double cleanings on mine?

It's ok that this is all new to you. But I would focus on your own stuff rather that on what the other people are doing/not doing.

Could focus on how YOU can keep your anxiety in check, and how to be a polite metamour to new people he dates while keeping your own healthy boundaries.

Rather than being all up in how he dates new people and whether or not he screws things up. If he's stepping on your toes you can say "Dude, back up there some."

But if he's basically hand wringing on his own? Well, that's part of the price of admission to dating new people. The period of time where a person has to sweat it out wondering if they are initially compatible or not and then later, if they are deeply compatible or not. Not everyone he dates will be a long haul runner. Let him have his process. Which includes sweating it out.

Do you want to go through this "rolling out the welcome mat" stress over EVERY potential he sees? Or only for the ones that look like they are actually gonna stick around for a while?It's ok to wait and see and just be basic polite in the meanwhile. You do NOT have to insta-BFFs with the new person just because you, MrJ and MrsJ practice KTP.

It may wind up that with THESE people in this branch of the polycule he does KTP, and with these other people in these other branches he does other open models. He cannot just shoehorn MsL into things because he has some fantasy about a tight 4.

Galagirl
 
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Thanks Galagirl, You have given me much food for thought.

I am not a stressy person generally, I am very go with the flow, so I am not sure why this particular situations has got me like it has.

I think maybe I have been feeding off some of MrJ's stress and I can now see I need to just let him get on with it, be supportive but step away from the situation(s) so to speak.

I think MrsJ has also fallen into the same trap and we are probably feeding off each other. Coupled with the first time having to deal with a consensual sleepover arrangement, we have both got too caught up in the swirl of emotions we were dealing with and closed ranks so to speak.

MsL has had a few poly relationships but we have been told she generally does not meet her partners partners so this is new to her. I have no idea if this is by choice or pressure from MRJ, but given her personality, I can't really see her doing so just to please him.

Funny you should say I am not responsible for how she feels. I tell my kids this over and over again...not sure why I am not following my own advice.

I am embracing the sit back and let them deal with it approach. It has made me a bit twitchy about a couple of things, but you are right, not my monkey, not my circus.

Thank you.
Time will tell.
 
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