Handling Post-Break-Up Resentment

[LBeyond]

It's been two years since Sio and I attempted poly, but the dissonance in our relationship is as strong as ever. I've looked through so many sites and articles, and all have such a bleak (and unacceptable) outlook on handling a one-sided break-up in poly situations. Especially when closing a relationship. To be clear, I don't want any questions asking if I really want to stay in my relationship or comments about it being unhealthy and a danger to my well-being. I do, and I know. Sio and I also both have therapists, psychiatrists, all working in tandem to help us through our difficulties, individual and mutual.

As a general recap for those unfamiliar with what's happened:

Sio has schizoaffective disorder with major auditory and moderate visual hallucinations, and over the years I've developed a somatoform disorder or narcolepsy (doctors still figuring all that out) which causes freak episodes of temporary paralysis or seizure-like spasms when I get exhausted or stressed (or, too happy; sex has put me unconscious before). Sio and I tried poly to let her explore her bisexuality, and while I fell for our lover, Sio did not. Paranoia and jealousy was too much. Unfortunately, in her attempt to "learn to get over it," she hid how she was feeling, directly lied about the amount of pleasure she experienced during our dates, all in an attempt to "give me what I want and make me happy." Since then, it's been difficult for both of us to get past everything and reconnect.

A lot of Sio's episodes cause her to relive intimate moments, hallucinating them in front of her--often blocking out her actual surroundings. During full break-downs, it's almost always brought up, including accusing me of cheating on her and bribing the kids to keep quiet. She is still caught in the loop of feeling like she's not enough, that it was only our lover Sara who made me happy, etc., and by God I feel horrible watching her go through the same motions day after day. I don't expect anyone here to contribute a lot to her frame of mind, since that's her therapist's realm, but it's pertinent to what I'm going through.

On my end, I suffered from a lot of guilt after the break-up. It wasn't pretty, and I felt like I failed to protect Sara from everything Sio and I were going through. To everyone's credit, Sara knew about the schizophrenia, communication was very open, and Sara let us know what she felt about different things as they came up. There was a brief time where we tried to stay friends, and then a year-and-a-half-long disconnect. With Sio's permission, I did have one conversation some time ago with Sara, apologizing for my part in what happened. The conversation did exactly what I needed it to; Sara was calm and pleasant, understanding, accepting of my apology and she relieved me of that pent-up guilt that was really tearing me apart. Afterwords, I turned to the guilt I felt towards Sio, and the feelings I'd helped instill in her, and the pain of loss I still felt.

We dated for two months, though I did spend some time talking with Sara beforehand to see if I might be compatible with her. It might seem odd to still hold feelings as strongly as I have years later, but she filled more needs of mine than I realized. I do attach quickly, but beyond that, the last ten years have led me further into isolation than I ever imagined possible. Close friends moving countries away, tensions rising in every social circle I was part of until they collapsed, and a lot of my closest friends dying at war or committing suicide. I have felt alone most of my relationship with Sio, because an intimate relationship is not enough for me. I need people, and I always have. That feeling of community... Well, having a second intimate relationship filled that need, and gave me a feeling of overfull. It was the happiest I'd been in a decade or more, and when it was gone, I felt that emptiness more than ever.

Combined with the constant reminders in Sio's breakdowns and episodes, the space between us I haven't been able to close, and the total lack of empathy from my wife, the urge to blame her for all of this pain is incredible. The good-intentioned, extremely misguided lies, the accusations and remaining jealousy, the occasional snipe at Sara for what Sio didn't like about her, has all been mounting. It's to the point that, at the end of the month, both our therapists are meeting with us to have a group discussion (which I can only hope for the best out of). But something that my therapist has not been able to offer me, and what I'm looking for, is some way to better handle my own resentment... I hate this feeling that creeps in towards my wife. Despite whatever negativity I've shared here, I have plenty of valid reasons to love Sio, and do all I can to work through this with her.

I constantly sit back, breathe, and remind myself of Sio and I's last ten years--every positive memory I can recall. But, beyond accepting that pain as part of life, is there any way to dampen it? Move past it, other than time? We've tried to have sex more often, watch more shows together, and tried playing some games... but so frequently something comes up, brings all the negativity to the surface, and I find myself distracted and disappointed, knowing I can't really say anything without becoming aggressive and accusing. It's like a mental crunch, where everything collapses and I go numb. Many times it ends in a paralytic episode, I'll pass out. I've really run out of ideas on how to manage my own thoughts. I'm remaining hopeful that the sleep specialist will help manage some of the causes, but I know that's only part of it all.

 

[Magdlyn]

This, of course, isn't a polyamory problem, but a problem with a spouse with a debiliatating psychiatric health disease, which treatment has not been able to relieve.

I'm sure there are plenty of articles, books and support groups for caregivers such as yourself. My sister has been to some support group meetings, in fact, which were free at her local library.

To me, I think you have to accept her rantings are just her disease talking, and aren't valid in your life. There is nothing you can do to help her, since it's not rational.

You can only help yourself. Do more self care. Relieve your stress. Get out, make friends, pursue hobbies. Do some mindfulness meditation when you are alone. Breathe deeply, relax your whole body.

If possible, spend less time with Sio. You sound very enmeshed and entangled, to the point where you let your medical conditions and hers overlap. Let her take responsibility for her own issues. You care for yourself.

 

[GalaGirl]

I'm sorry.

Other than securing counselors, you sound like you still are struggling with a lot of stuff from your old post at http://www.polyamory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106925

She is still caught in the loop of feeling like she's not enough, that it was only our lover Sara who made me happy, etc., and by God I feel horrible watching her go through the same motions day after day. I don't expect anyone here to contribute a lot to her frame of mind, since that's her therapist's realm, but it's pertinent to what I'm going through.

What does your therapist advise you to do when your patient wife is having this sort of episode? How consistently have you been able to implement it?

She might be a patient, but you aren't actually happy in your marriage right now. She probably senses it. Then her illness makes her act out/react/go in a loop.

Are you doing anything to try to have less enmeshment with her? Better personal boundaries?

What are you doing about your own self care? I see the counseling and continuing to sort out the seizure thing. What about the rest?

I have felt alone most of my relationship with Sio, because an intimate relationship is not enough for me. I need people, and I always have. That feeling of community...

What have you been doing to build community in the last two years since the break up? Made any new friends? Started participating in a sport, hobby, church, volunteering, something?

Combined with the constant reminders in Sio's breakdowns and episodes, the space between us I haven't been able to close, and the total lack of empathy from my wife, the urge to blame her for all of this pain is incredible.

Could you be willing to articulate what it is you blame Sio for? Are you able to articulate? Could that help with the "mental crunch?"

Like....

“I think it is Sio's fault that _____.

“I think Sio should give me ___empathy? Other things? ___ and she doesn't.

I don't like that in the past she lied to me about ____. I have/have not forgiven her for that.

So later when she does behavior like the accusations and remaining jealousy, the occasional snipe at Sara for what Sio didn't like about her... it really pisses me off.

I resent her because I think she should / could be doing _____ instead.”​

We've tried to have sex more often, watch more shows together, and tried playing some games... but so frequently something comes up, brings all the negativity to the surface, and I find myself distracted and disappointed, knowing I can't really say anything without becoming aggressive and accusing.

What are you disappointed in? What's all this extra sex, shows, and games supposed to replace/fix/improve?

What trigger thing comes up? Are you able to list your triggers?

What is it you want to say so much that's been pent up so long? That you don't say because comes out aggressive/accusing? Have you said it to your counselor?

I've really run out of ideas on how to manage my own thoughts

Sounds like you too are “stuck in a loop.” I remember before you were struggling with self bullying. Has that gotten any better? Do you beat your own self up in your head any less?

Has your counselor been helpful in guiding you how to break out of all these layers of things? Helped you make not just one PLAN but a STRATEGY -- a collection of plans to address each layer? If they have... Are you actually DOING your management plans?

It's to the point that, at the end of the month, both our therapists are meeting with us to have a group discussion (which I can only hope for the best out of).

Maybe you can organize your thoughts for the big group session so you can get the most out of it?

I hope the joint counseling session is useful.

Galagirl

 

[kdt26417]

Hi LBeyond,

Have you tried journaling? a way to give voice to your angst and frustration without taking it out on your wife? You know that her issues are caused mostly by her condition, so it doesn't really help to try to reason with her. All you can really say to her is, "Honey, I see that you are hurting right now, and very upset. I'm very sorry about that, that must be very hard to go through." Since you can't talk to her, you need another outlet for the thoughts and emotions she stirs up in you. Start a new thread in the Life stories and blogs section, and just start writing in a stream-of-consciousness type style. Get your thoughts and feelings out there, don't hold back.

Post whenever Sio has another episode, just describe how you are doing in the wake of it, what you're doing to try to cope, and whether and how well it's working. Identify the pain you feel, and see if you can recognize what parts of your brain/body the pain is affecting. Give yourself permission to vent and be petulant, even ugly if you have to. Tell the good, bad, and ugly as it arises. If you need more privacy, journal in a notebook or a secret file on your computer. For even more privacy, delete the file or burn the pages each time you finish posting. Just don't let that stuff sit in there and fester. Get it out, even if it amounts to verbal vomit. Spit out the poison.

It's apparent just from what you've posted in this thread that you are suffering, you are still grieving the loss of Sara. Which, that too might be translated into apropos journal content. Express all that Sara meant to you, give voice to what you have lost, let yourself dream of getting her back someday even if you know that could never happen. Tell what you would do differently if there could ever be a next time, or even a time machine to go back and do it again. Write letters to Sara, even if you know you can't send them. There is profound longing deep in your soul, and it too needs to be let out.

You might already be doing all of this, but I mention it just in case. I'm curious, does Sio take medication to help manage her condition? Can her therapist prescribe something for her? You might have to experiment for a while with type/s and dosage, but in time you may arrive at a combination that reduces the frequency and severity of her episodes, without too many side effects. Again, you may already be doing this, but I mention it just in case. Magdlyn and GalaGirl gave excellent advice too, do your self-care and foster appropriate boundaries, don't get so tangled up in Sio's pain that it overlaps with your own. Do keep posting on this forum, and don't be afraid to ask for help. We're here to listen.

Kind regards and sympathy,
Kevin T.

 

[vinsanity0]

I agree with what has been said so far. I'll just add a little regarding your guilt. Sio told you she was fine with everything. She acted like she was fine with everything. You shouldn't feel guilty for believing her. That's on her.

I wish you luck with the upcoming group session. I know it's tough dealing with someone with mental illness.

 

[Tinwen]

I believe the strongest way to deal with resentment is to find ways to fill that need (that you feel hasn't been fulfilled before). If the need is community, then finding one will help to stop resenting your wife for not having a community. Not everything can be done this way, but still, it should be attempted.

And do what Kevin says, if not publicly then in a private journal, he's spot on

I wish you much luck.

 

[LBeyond]

This, of course, isn't a polyamory problem . . . I'm sure there are plenty of articles, books and support groups for caregivers such as yourself.

There is a part of this that seems like a polyamory problem, at least in the event of one-sided break-ups amidst overlapping relationships. I turned to these forums for a few reasons, but I imagine someone here has ended a positive relationship in order to maintain a previous, perhaps longer-lived one. Though I do agree that the caregiver aspect is the more dominant, current problem between us, I was hoping for advice on moving past Sara and not resenting my wife for breaking off the triad. As for support groups, my therapist and I have both looked for a suitable one. The search continues.

What's all this extra sex, shows, and games supposed to replace/fix/improve?

A second intimate relationship fulfilled my need for other people in my life, and because I've pretty well failed to establish any community locally or online in the last two years, finding more fulfillment with Sio seemed like a plausible option. I was trying out advice I found on a couple different closing-up-poly articles, too.

You sound very enmeshed and entangled, to the point where you let your medical conditions and hers overlap.

What does your therapist advise you to do when your patient wife is having this sort of episode? How consistently have you been able to implement it . . . Are you doing anything to try to have less enmeshment with her? Better personal boundaries?

A constant problem I've struggled with for our entire relationship... I take walks occasionally, and she'll take the kids out to the store and her parents a while to give me an empty house. She gives me time for hobbies, but whatever is going on with me really mucks up my concentration, so I haven't been able to work on any of my projects since about the time I lost my job (mid-March). More physical hobbies are a no-go until my body recovers, so a lot of the time I feel sort of trapped at home. In general though, I think the main reason I'm so enmeshed is that, she's about the only other adult I talk with most days.

Do some mindfulness meditation when you are alone. Breathe deeply, relax your whole body.

What have you been doing to build community in the last two years since the break up? Made any new friends? Started participating in a sport, hobby, church, volunteering, something?

Have you tried journaling? . . . Write letters to Sara, even if you know you can't send them.

I spent most of my college years really figuring out how to manage my stress, calm myself, learn patience (mostly patience for myself). My therapist has only been able to give me a couple new techniques to try that I wasn't aware of. It's gotten to a point, though, that breathing and clearing my mind is impossible. I'm guessing it's the major sleep deprivation going on right now. I've had less than 7 hours of interrupted sleep over 3 days lol!

But I have attempted, nearly every month, to engage in some new community or activity, including reaching out to reconnect with old friends I haven't talked with in years. Unfortunately, the area I live in right now is extremely prejudiced, isolationist, and I'm a bit too outspoken to tolerate it. Sometimes I bite my lip and keep quiet, but the amount I have to sit down and shut up sort of ruins the point. I've been to several board and card game groups, dozens of online groups for a variety of PC games or things like D&D, attempted integrating into the local crafts community and was introduced to at least a half dozen people my wife thought I'd hit it off with. There's a lot of tension everywhere I go, and I can't help but wonder if I'm bringing too much stress with me, unable to cast it off. I more feel like my openness and otherness combined is a bit too harsh for most people; if it pertains to a conversation, I never really hide anything about myself.

This here is the only community I've felt accepted as part of for roughly ten years.

I've journaled (though I can never stick with it) and wrote no-send letters. Poetry and lyrical bits... I've talked with my therapist, a friend from college, a couple of guys I know online, and even my mother about the situation, but speaking it aloud doesn't seem to change anything no matter how many times I say it. I've never kept my stresses inside or hidden, so maybe there's nothing left to (verbally) release?

What does your therapist advise you to do when your patient wife is having this sort of episode? How consistently have you been able to implement it? . . . Has your counselor been helpful in guiding you how to break out of all these layers of things?

Don't get so tangled up in Sio's pain that it overlaps with your own.

Tbh, I don't feel like my therapist understands true psychosis... She's theorized several checklist-like approaches, things like Dos & Don'ts posted on the fridge to refer to mid-episode, but that's far too reliant on rationality. We tried similar measures early on, and they enrage Sio, worsen the problem exponentially. She sees them as a method of control, to use against her. After explaining my post-episode calming techniques and other ways to recuperate, my therapist has given me nearly nothing in terms of self-care or recovery. Point in fact, if little to nothing comes out of our planned group talk, I'll be finding a new therapist, but given it's finally scheduled, I want to at least see that through. There's not a lot of options here for mental illness, though, so unfortunately I'd be going to the same facility. The only other facility with therapists has no psychiatrists and, when I was speaking with their representatives, couldn't even answer my basic questions about what they offered to a prospective patient. It was disgustingly unimpressive.

There were other questions that I felt were directed more towards what I wanted to discuss--my struggle with resentment towards my wife and, jumbled together in that, my loss of Sara... but I know Sio's mental health, and my own psychological maintenance is important. Juggling all of that has and will continue to be a work-in-progress for our entire life together. Constantly switching medications when one's effectiveness falls off, or new ones are invented, learning better ways of communicating and navigating her episodes, possibly ways to prevent the bulk of them... When I said I don't expect anyone here to contribute a lot to her frame of mind, I think I meant more generally, we're doing everything we can and should to work towards a healthier, sustainable life together in regards to her schizophrenia. Schizophrenia is such a case-by-case disorder to begin with, that I know it's between her, our doctors and myself to manage it. I just also know that it's all pertinent information if I'm asking for advice on how to move past resentment, because her episodes make it all the more difficult to.

 

[LBeyond]

I remember before you were struggling with self bullying. Has that gotten any better? Do you beat your own self up in your head any less?

Talking with Sara that one last time took a bulk of that self-bullying off of me. I'd really felt like I had mismanaged Sio's episodes so poorly, and got caught up in them, that I'd unintentionally threw it at Sara. I still sometimes have to deal with that feeling of, "I let this happen. I should have known better," but like my therapist says, I have no idea what would've happened if I told Sio, "No. Never gonna happen."

Could you be willing to articulate what it is you blame Sio for? Are you able to articulate? Could that help with the "mental crunch?"

• At the simplest, and at the risk of sounding melodramatic, Sio broke my heart. She took Sara away from me.
• There are many times that Sio has spoken terribly about Sara, even after I've asked her to stop it, explained that it was painful to me.
• After ten years, most of what she tries to do to comfort me is the exact opposite of what I want or need, and calmly telling her, "No, this only hurts me worse," typically ends up with her crashing, and me having to console her instead.
• Talking about when things hurt me in general leads to her feeling attacked, getting defensive. I hear "I haven't done anything wrong!" and "Don't even start this again" too many times.
• She tells me I've killed her idea of love, that our love is cheapened, and that she can't keep sharing me with her.
• She has no empathy for my part in what happened, demands that I change how I feel about Sara, and occasionally uses her reasons for disliking Sara to try convincing me out of my love for her.

I feel like a lot of these things are addressed in so many of the pre-opening-up reading, that something somewhere should help Sio understand more about what happened, why it's not as damning as she perceives it. I know that passion will fade over time, and that it will take me a long time, and it's not something I can force, but Sio's lack of empathy and understanding ramps up her jealousy and impatience with me. I believe the schizophrenia mucks things up between me saying something and her hearing what I've said, too, since there seems to be no tone of voice or volume I can use without her saying "Stop yelling at me." I can preface a conversation with, "Look, I'm not angry or upset, just what you said/did there... it hurt," and that's all it can take to start an argument.

What trigger thing comes up? Are you able to list your triggers? What is it you want to say so much that's been pent up so long? That you don't say because comes out aggressive/accusing? Have you said it to your counselor?

Eh, like I mentioned, any emotional variance can be a trigger. Sex, stress, physical pain (one time Sio sack-tapped me, it hurt, and I stopped moving for about 40 minutes) or just about anything. That's one big reason my sleep doctor things narcolepsy may be a big root cause: Cataplexy.

When Sio gets defensive, or starts trying to force conversations about Sara, it's hard to not get upset. There are so many times what could be a simple, adult conversation turns to emotional overload. I do try to avoid these sorts of conversations, or tone them down, but sometimes I can't. Sometimes she's already beyond that point, and it's extremely difficult to always keep myself measured--especially if I feel a cataplexic episode begin. There have been times where the conversation was forced long enough, that I've ended up catatonic on the bed, her on top of and shaking me, yelling at me to respond. When a bad conversation is going on, and she's not in an episode, it's hard not to accuse her of abusing me. It's hard not to accuse her of the lying in our triad, of taking Sara away from me, etc., etc. I feel that way a lot, but not only did all three of us decide on a veto power, Sara and I both didn't want Sio to continue feeling the way she was. I made my choice, and it was a painful one, but to turn around and throw that at Sio isn't what I want to do. I just don't know how to twist that around properly in my head, so what I feel matches what I think.
edit: and yes, this is a main topic with my therapist, but it's not something she's offered any real attempt at a solution for. Just, "keep reminding yourself you love her" and other common sense bits.

 

[Tinwen]

Is there any option for the two of you, no matter how radical or distant, to move to a more progressive area that is less bigotted and has better mental healthcare available? It sounds like it would improve things a lot.

Besides that, finding propper (sleep?) medication for you seems crucial.

 

[GalaGirl]

I was hoping for advice on moving past Sara and not resenting my wife for breaking off the triad.

I believe every person is responsible for their own self and what they want to be doing. Their consent to participate in things belongs to THEM. So if your wife no longer wanted to participate in a triad? She could tell the other people "Hey. I don't want to do this any more. I'm bowing out." So "triad" has ended.

Then it's on the other two people what to do. They too can stop. Or they choose to keep dating each other.

It's hard not to accuse her of the lying in our triad, of taking Sara away from me, etc., etc. I feel that way a lot, but not only did all three of us decide on a veto power, Sara and I both didn't want Sio to continue feeling the way she was. I made my choice, and it was a painful one, but to turn around and throw that at Sio isn't what I want to do. I just don't know how to twist that around properly in my head, so what I feel matches what I think.

Sounds like you found out the hard way the veto does not work. Even though you all agreed to veto? And even though you did keep the promise to veto and all stop if one stops?

You didn't really want to pull the plug. Your heart wasn't in it. But you did anyway. YOU made a choice. You have to make your peace with that.

It's not so much resenting Sio for taking Sara away from you. It's you being mad at you for keeping a veto promise you didn't like rather than choosing to say “You know what? Not keeping this veto promise. I accept you bowing out. I don't want to. Can we talk about a V? Or marriage dissolution?”

Since you decided to keep going with the marriage and make the best of it?

How about giving all of you the newbie pass for making some mistakes?

• Forgive Sio for lying during triad time. Maybe at the time she thought it was true but later changed her mind and didn't know how to speak up.
  
• Forgive you for going along with the veto. Maybe at the time you thought it made sense, but later on discovered veto felt bad, but didn't know how to speak up.
  
• Forgive Sara for whatever needs to be forgiven there.

Just so you can find peace in yourself again. You have SO many other things to be dealing with.

I've pretty well failed to establish any community locally or online in the last two years, finding more fulfillment with Sio seemed like a plausible option.

If what you need is more people, spending extra time with Sio is NOT a plausible option to me to fix that.

You spend time with Sio to spend time with Sio.

You do not spend time to Sio trying to make her be more people. She can't. She can only be one.

So if you resent that she cannot be ALL the company you need – your expectations there might need adjustment.

At the simplest, and at the risk of sounding melodramatic, Sio broke my heart. She took Sara away from me.

If you blame wife for that? Rather than accept YOU chose to let Sara go because you chose to honor the veto agreement rather than buck it? I'm not sure how you are going to let the resentment go.

Resentment is thinking you were treated unfairly somehow. I do not think it is unfair for Sio to decide she doesn't want to do stuff any more. So she stops doing it.

I do not think it is unfair for you have to be responsible for your own self and your own choices. And if Sio asks you to keep the veto promise? And you don't want to do? Could NO and choose otherwise. That you didn't? That your doing.

It points back to being really enmeshed with wife and needing to work on being your own person more, owning your own choices, etc.

There are many times that Sio has spoken terribly about Sara, even after I've asked her to stop it, explained that it was painful to me.

You cannot control her talking. Esp with her illness. You can control your listening. You can control your reaction to when she brings it up again.

Either leave the room when she's going on about it, take a walk, find a way not to take it personally on board, say “No, This is for the therapist.”

If wife sulks or whatever? Separate yourself from her feelings. It's ok for a patient to feel things, some of them grumpy things. It is NOT your job as caregiver to make the whole world pie for them.

If wife gets physical with you, hits you, is abusive? You may have to rethink if you can actually be her caregiver while still remaining safe yourself.

Which may be hard if you are hanging on to the marriage so “all this was worth something.” And not think like you lost Sara and then end up losing the marriage too.

I'm not telling you to leave your wife if that's not what you want to do. But I do suggest you air that bucket of feelings out with your therapist if you haven't already.

If you are basically just going through the motions of marriage right now in the hopes of "fake it til you make it?" Call it what it is and talk to therapist about that. Also talk about what happens if you keep faking it but don't arrive at making it? What's the plan then?

If part of the reason you resent Sio is because you have made her your albatross and feel obligated or guilty in some fashion? Well... talk to therapist about that too.

After ten years, most of what she tries to do to comfort me is the exact opposite of what I want or need, and calmly telling her, "No, this only hurts me worse," typically ends up with her crashing, and me having to console her instead.

Ten years is stuff before Sara.

Even if the actual thing that would comfort YOU is a heart to heart with a person, if wife cannot provide something like that due to her limitations? You are gonna have to accept what she CAN provide and seek elsewhere for that other kind of comfort. You have a patient wife. If she lacks skills in comforting you... you may just have to TELL her what to do that might be good enough effort for you. "Hon, I'd love a cup of tea." or something. Let her do that act of service, thank her, and find other ways to comfort yourself.

It's hard to be in a patient relationship. The caregiver shoulders a lot. And it's flat out lonely. Add caregiver lonely on top of your other lonely -- I sympathize. It's a lot.

And that you yourself may need a caregiver of your own and your wife is not capable? And you resent her for that? Well, another thing to talk to therapist about.

She tells me I've killed her idea of love, that our love is cheapened, and that she can't keep sharing me with her.

HOW is she still sharing you with Sara? I thought you were all broken up and you stopped talking to Sara?

She has no empathy for my part in what happened,

Well, if wife has no empathy? You have to accept that part. So you can stop banging head on that wall. Seek empathy from therapist.

demands that I change how I feel about Sara

That part? You can feel however you want about Sara. Wife has no control over that.

You CAN stop talking to wife about Sara and keep your Sara things private.

and occasionally uses her reasons for disliking Sara to try convincing me out of my love for her.

Well, if you stop talking to wife about Sara? And when wife tries to force a convo about her you tell wife "Look, I'm putting it behind me and moving on. I don't want to talk about Sara any more. I'm over it all" and then hold the boundary? Then it's pretty much done.

Wife can take it how she wants to. That you are over Sara.

You can take it how you want to. That you are over harping on this with wife.

Save your Sara stuff for you, and talk to therapist only about Sara.

I feel like a lot of these things are addressed in so many of the pre-opening-up reading, that something somewhere should help Sio understand more about what happened, why it's not as damning as she perceives it.

Honestly after 2 years? If Sio hasn't done her reading she's not gonna. Could accept that.

And if she found it super damaging? She's allowed to have her experience of it. Could accept it was super damaging TO HER.

While for YOU it was eye opening.

You can't talk her out of her experience any more than than she can talk you out of your love for Sara.

You could work on detaching yourself from some of your wife's stuff. Let it be only HER stuff. And her stuff she can sort out with her therapist.

You are already spouse and caregiver to Sio. You do not also have to be free bonus therapist when she's got one.

(cont)

 

[GalaGirl]

I know that passion will fade over time, and that it will take me a long time, and it's not something I can force, but Sio's lack of empathy and understanding ramps up her jealousy and impatience with me.

You could decide to take your Sara grief private, and not try to process it so much with wife. Then you have all the time and space you need to do it in without side interruptions from her.

If you aren't telling her your private things, I'm not sure what she'd be jealous of. Other than I guess you having personal boundaries and NOT telling her everything in the world.

“Yeah, I see you don't like that. Sorry.” Then change nothing and keep holding your personal boundaries. She can go tell her therapist how it pisses her off when you hold personal boundaries.

I wonder why you keep looking for empathy and understanding from Sio rather than accepting there is none? My mom had a hard time with that with my Alzheimer dad. Her expecting normal adult husband stuff out of a person who no longer remembers things, is "time traveling" etc. was not a realistic expectation. He just isn't that guy any more. His illness is/was eroding him.

Have you even had TIME to grieve wife's dx? That dx has only been two years ago, and you had other things to grieve in that space – your own dx, the break up, etc. You are under a heavy load.

I get how some of that burden can feel like a dam bursting.

And how that can impeded new friend making if you burst at them. It comes off as INTENSE and like “whoa. This person is too much! I don't want to be friends like that.”

Which sucks for helping you feel less lonely. It may be that you shelve making new friends in real life for a bit and stick to participating in online forums when time allows.

I believe the schizophrenia mucks things up between me saying something and her hearing what I've said, too, since there seems to be no tone of voice or volume I can use without her saying "Stop yelling at me." I can preface a conversation with, "Look, I'm not angry or upset, just what you said/did there... it hurt," and that's all it can take to start an argument.

That's a lot of words to process. That would piss off my dad too. And he would say things like that too. “Stop yelling” is not actual volume of the speaking to him. It's how many words are coming in at him. More than he can take.

In the early years of my dad's dx, mom would try to reason and explain things to him like that. Made him go defensive and act out WORSE because it was like “word bullets” to him – way more than his brain could process. So he'd feel attacked. So he'd blow up back. And mom would get all upset. And it would go in this side argument over who was the real attacker because he's not attacking, he's defending himself from her peppering him with too many words.

I asked her why she explains so much to him when he is losing words and the ability to think hard stuff. All she's doing when she approaches with long windy things is REMINDING him that he's losing words and abilities and that PISSES HIM OFF.

She would tell me "Because he needs to understand..."

And I would tell her "No, he doesn't. YOU want him to understand. “

It was some big fight about him understanding that he has to take out the trash in time for the pick up and the garage getting stinky when he misses the window. I asked her why she can't just say “Time to take out trash.” Just skip to the action part.

She said because he complains she is bossy. I laughed and asked when has Dad NOT complained? His basic mode of existence is complaining. And she IS the boss now. She arranges the schedule for the patient.

I asked her why she couldn't just take it out. She said because then he complains she is doing all the jobs. Then I asked her why his job can't be washing the car – something she doesn't care if it gets done on time or not. Because if he does it, great on time. If he misses, oh well. Can still drive a dirty car. He has a job he can be in charge of. She has no stinky garage.

I asked her also why she's assigning a man who time travels in his head time based jobs. How is that sensible? She stared at me with her mouth open.

Now that she's been his caregiver for 10 years, she is past all these newbie caregiver problems. So maybe a part of your struggle is adjusting your expectations to keep pace with your wife's illness?

When Sio gets defensive, or starts trying to force conversations about Sara, it's hard to not get upset.

Have you tried saying “I don't want to talk about her any more. I"m over it” just to stop dealing in this facet of things?

You have SO much going on as it is.

There have been times where the conversation was forced long enough, that I've ended up catatonic on the bed, her on top of and shaking me, yelling at me to respond. When a bad conversation is going on, and she's not in an episode, it's hard not to accuse her of abusing me.

Since you recognize some of her behavior is abusive and inappropriate, and at this time you plan to stay in the relationship, I will leave it to your therapist to help you address this problem.

Again... I hope the group session is helpful.

Hang in there.

Galagirl

 

[LBeyond]

I believe every person is responsible for their own self and what they want to be doing . . . YOU made a choice. You have to make your peace with that . . . Resentment is thinking you were treated unfairly somehow.

Agreed, and when I think about it, I recognize that. I'm just struggling to reconcile what I think and know vs. what I feel, and the sentiment, "Sio broke my heart," is definitely a way of conveying the resentment-building feeling, rather than how I understand the situation. I'm aware of it, and trying to find better ways to fight it. Sara didn't want to be the cause of Sio and I's relationship failing; Sio and I didn't want to lose each other. At the earliest, I felt like the two of them sort of made my decision to honor the veto for me. I've worked past that to some extent, but still have a lot of lingering grief that I occasionally project onto Sio. I don't think that Sio deserves any resentment, and have felt from the start that it's an internal problem of my own and focus on it as such.

You cannot control her talking. Esp with her illness. You can control your listening . . . If wife gets physical with you, hits you, is abusive? You may have to rethink if you can actually be her caregiver while still remaining safe yourself.

I've called abuse hotlines, and it's part of how I realized the extent and severity of my position... That process of rethinking happens every night, and while yeah, a good part of me doesn't want to feel "like I lost Sara and then end up losing the marriage too," it's more the up-time compatibility I don't want to lose. It feels like Sio and I have overcome Hell itself sometimes, and someone as devoted as she's proven herself is worth a lot to me. That said, part of me is facing the, "So, my wife gets sick and I abandon her?" mentality... There's nothing hidden from my therapist, and there's no faking anything between Sio and I. The love is real, for both of us, but becoming more fragmented the longer we struggle to resolve the triad fallout (or her illness progressing, or both).

It's hard to be in a patient relationship. The caregiver shoulders a lot. And it's flat out lonely . . . You CAN stop talking to wife about Sara and keep your Sara things private.

I do instruct her, often, but for whatever reason, simple gestures like food, drinks, physical closeness, quiet, don't register to her as helpful. There's a need for instant gratification in her, and when I don't seem better (since I haven't had time to self-regenerate) she worsens. She can often tell if I'm upset, or thinking about things, and she feels compelled to fix it. She was raised to believe that, if she couldn't comfort her husband, she had failed as a wife, rather than to understand some things a person needs to figure through and recover from more naturally. I consistently attempt to stop the Sara conversations, but Sio's adamant about discussion. The less I talk about it, the more paranoid she gets; partly because she knows the feelings still exist in me. And that is how she still feels like she's sharing me. Contact with Sara isn't necessary for Sio to feel like she's sharing me, just knowing I love her. That, I'm aware, is Sio's challenge to overcome. I can't help her any more with that, since we've discussed it more than I've wanted to and I've nothing more to say to help her understand the way I do.

Honestly after 2 years? If Sio hasn't done her reading she's not gonna. Could accept that.

She still refuses to actively research her own schizophrenia... so yeah, at some level I accept that, but it's infuriating. Any time I've shared anything with her, she says it just reinforces that she should divorce me so I could go back to Sara, missing the points I want to convey entirely. Holding my own boundaries in the face of such aggressive pessimism seems like a dance. How much do I hold back before I do more damage than discussion would cause? But, I do appreciate this way of looking at it:

You are already spouse and caregiver to Sio. You do not also have to be free bonus therapist when she's got one.

Without going too specific, a lot of how you described your mother and father's relationship carries over... and yeah, I don't believe I've had any time to allow for grieving of just about anything. Early on in our relationship, my parents were going through a nasty pre-divorce period that ended with me cutting ties with them for several years; then my wife had a bone tumor in her neck, along with a half-dozen suicide attempts; 5 house moves, one caused by family problems on Sio's parents' side; the schizoaffective diagnosis; the triad breakup; and my own medical, accompanied with loss of job and financial stability. It's been a gauntlet, for sure.

This is something I've discussed with my therapist. She attempted to use a REM-like process of blinking lights and vibrating paddles to help me reprocess trauma, but eventually stopped doing it because, in her words, "There was too much for her to find an area to focus on." Since then, nearly every session begins and ends with questions about my sleep study information, and "Well, we'll just wait for the results of all that." Another reason why, if nothing good comes out of the group conversation, I'll be finding a new therapist. I get no empathy or comfort from our discussions, despite her being a nice enough lady who does earnestly care. She just doesn't seem to be a fit for me.

“Stop yelling” is not actual volume of the speaking to him. It's how many words are coming in at him. More than he can take.

I hadn't considered this... This might be the first new perspective I've heard of that might do quite a bit in helping my way of talking with her.

 

[GalaGirl]

She can often tell if I'm upset, or thinking about things, and she feels compelled to fix it. She was raised to believe that, if she couldn't comfort her husband, she had failed as a wife, rather than to understand some things a person needs to figure through and recover from more naturally.

When you have SO many things to grieve, could you tell her you are thinking about something else even if you are thinking about Sara? Like "Yeah. I look sad because I haven't had good sleep. I feel really run down. Could you please be willing to make up the bed so I can try to get an extra nap?"

Redirect her to things that are (if not actually useful to you) not harmful?

Because if the only thing that will help you is time, you just have to let the time pass as best as possible. And Sio will have whatever wigginz in the meanwhile, but hopefully fewer and further between as you progress with your own grief and she's not noticing you sad as much because you aren't sad as much.

I consistently attempt to stop the Sara conversations, but Sio's adamant about discussion.

What's she want to know?

And that is how she still feels like she's sharing me. Contact with Sara isn't necessary for Sio to feel like she's sharing me, just knowing I love her.

Would it ease any for you if you told Sio you don't love Sara any more? Cuz you can love her privately in your head all you want. But you also have to live life with Sio.

My mom used to get stuck on "The Truth" with Dad.

Like Dad misplaces his wallet and yells that one of us stole it because we're out to get his money. Mom would argue with him that he dropped it behind the nightstand. He would insist he did no such thing. Then they would argue rather than GO LOOK. Because he does NOT like any hint that he is losing skills/abilities even if true. And she does NOT like being accused of stealing.

Me? I'd side step it all, go looking, and go "Oh! It fell back here. The cat must have knocked it down." And no, the cat did not. I've seen Dad not notice when he drops stuff in the house.

But the lie saves face for Dad -- because it is easier for him to accept the cat bumping things than Dad accepting he is losing skills. He will frown and go "Silly cat! Getting into everything!" And I don't have to listen to seniors arguing.

Is it "The Truth?" No. I lied to soothe him and make the day go a whole lot easier. Does the cat care I blamed him? No. Is dad gonna cuddle the cat still? Yes. All while telling the cat to stop taking things that aren't his.

“Stop yelling” is not actual volume of the speaking to him. It's how many words are coming in at him. More than he can take.

I hadn't considered this... This might be the first new perspective I've heard of that might do quite a bit in helping my way of talking with her.

They taught us that in Alzheimer class. Not to get too stuck on the LITERAL word meanings but to listen for the feelings behind the words. Like the patient is trying to get some idea across, but is making do with shrinking vocab. Dad cannot express "Use less words, too many confuse me" He goes "stop yelling."

Less words is better over all. I taught my mom "last 3 words." Like make it short, and make the last 3 words COUNT.

"Trash out please" is more effective than "don't you remember this is monday and we have to get the trash out in time for the garbage collection?"
Last three words there are "the garbage collection" which is a big "huh?" And then the WHOLE long list of 17 words in front is just "word bullets" or "yelling" to Dad. And he STILL isn't being told what to do with "the garbage collection." Just a pisser all around! Disturbing him from whatever he was doing to do word bullets at him and then leave him with mysterio "the garbage collection."

Esp if the patient is going through a whole day of this -- struggling to keep up with other people who are too "loud" and too "fast" and too "confusing" is it any wonder they get crabby?

So if mom goes "Trash out, please" instead he will tell her she is bossy but then go do it. Which is better overall.

Here's some links

https://www.thesilverpages.com/alzheimers-communication-tip-no-more-blah-blah-blah/

https://www.alz.org/help-support/caregiving/daily-care/communications

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DnMmJiNaxw

are some I used to go to. There's prob some for schizophrenia patient communication that might be able to help you a bit better but maybe those give you things to think about for improving patient communication.

That process of rethinking happens every night, and while yeah, a good part of me doesn't want to feel "like I lost Sara and then end up losing the marriage too," it's more the up-time compatibility I don't want to lose.

That may not be in your hands. It may be up to the disease progression.

It feels like Sio and I have overcome Hell itself sometimes, and someone as devoted as she's proven herself is worth a lot to me. That said, part of me is facing the, "So, my wife gets sick and I abandon her?" mentality...

No. It's accepting personal limitations. Mom had to accept that with her OWN aging, there will come a day where Dad and his care needs are going to be more than she can do with my help. Unless he dies in his sleep, there's gonna be a time to move him to a care facility where there are others to help out. Right now he can bathe and toilet himself but when the day comes that he CAN'T? Dude, we cannot do it. She's a little old lady and even with my help he's a BIG dude!

It may be more like "my wife gets sick, and I care for her on my own as long as I can. Then I have to let others help."

The love is real, for both of us, but becoming more fragmented the longer we struggle to resolve the triad fallout (or her illness progressing, or both).

They call Alzheimer "the long goodbye." I don't know what they call schizophrenia but is sounds like maybe similar.

You have my sympathies in this challenging time.

Galagirl

 

[PinkPig]

My mother had dementia. My father is on the spectrum. He's very literal and exacting. There was a period of time that my mother believed she was a young woman, her grandmother was alive, and her children were school aged. My father would show her pictures of me and my siblings as adults and tell her these were her children. And when she would continuously ask for her grandmother, he would tell her she had passed away. He believed it was the right thing to do because it was the truth. But it wasn't my mother's truth. In the reality she existed in, her grandmother was alive, we were school aged, and my mother was younger. Telling her otherwise just confused her, upset her, and in the end, made no difference. Even if he convinced her he was telling her the truth (which only happened very rarely), fifteen minutes later she'd forget and the whole thing would start back over. I chose to exist in my mother's reality. Whenever possible I just listened and commented on her feelings.... but if the situation called for it, I lied. If she was really upset because she didn't know where her children were and I couldn't redirect her, I would lie. I'd say they were at school or a sleepover. Sometimes, the truth just makes things worse. My aunt is schizophrenic. During her breaks, until her medicines are adequately adjusted and working, her reality is very different than the reality we all exist in. Until the meds are adjusted and working, convincing her that her reality is all in her head is not going to happen. It's just not. I think Gala is right that it may be easier for you both if you just let Sio believe your feelings for Sara have faded. It may be easier to redirect her and move on when she becomes fixated, if she believes that you are no longer in love with Sara. I know that doesn't leave you with Sio as a support person... but it seems that due to her illness, she is not capable of being a supportive, empathetic partner, anyway. You will likely need to seek that elsewhere.

I also wonder if maybe you are not letting your feelings for Sara fade because staying stuck in the past is less painful than facing that this is your current reality? If so, working on accepting where you are will help. I may be off base .... if so, please disregard that comment.

Have you looked for an online support group for spouses of people with your wife's condition? I would think that could be incredibly helpful.

I don't know if it will help you but the book "When Things Fall Apart" by Pema Chodron was helpful to me.

 

[hedgehog]

It's been two years since Sio and I attempted poly, but the dissonance in our relationship is as strong as ever.

I'm with Magdlyn on this one.