Is This the Final Red Flag? Hotwife, Poly, and Possible Rectification

[Magdlyn]

You have every right to be 100% sure you can trust her on the choice to use condoms or not. Being fluid bonded is great, but only if you can absolutely trust your partner. I'd say put that on the back burner for now. Wait until Covid is more in control, you are done with your degree, and have moved and settled into your new job. Give yourself plenty of time to rest and get back to normal. There is no need to pile on stressors. I'm sure you have PTSD from the extreme Covid care situation (like most of us do, only worse, since you're a first responder), and hardly have emotional bandwidth for dating issues right now, as it is!

As for getting yourself some new cool clothes, go for it! Treat yo-self! You deserve all the treats! All the self-confidence and self-esteem-building you need! Clothing, fresh haircuts, time to work out, a massage, healthy food, jacuzzi at the gym, whatever it is guys do to feel good. [virtual hug]

 

[tallbosguy]

You have every right to be 100% sure you can trust her on the choice to use condoms or not. Being fluid bonded is great, but only if you can absolutely trust your partner. I'd say put that on the back burner for now. Wait until Covid is more in control, you are done with your degree, and have moved and settled into your new job.

Well she wants to do it in a few months when they visit. Complicating this will be a period of very limited contact with her husband, who should be part of this conversation, in a short time.

you're a first responder

Close! I work as part of a coordinated crisis effort, so not only health stuff but housing, etc. I will say this, and I do not get political, but things are getting better in many places faster than what is reported.

As for getting yourself some new cool clothes, go for it! Treat yo-self! You deserve all the treats! All the self-confidence and self-esteem-building you need! Clothing, fresh haircuts, time to work out, a massage, healthy food, jacuzzi at the gym, whatever it is guys do to feel good. [virtual hug]

Thank you, I really do appreciate it alot! I took a drive this weekend to just find a secluded spot to let it all out. It feels a little better, but sort of like after cleaning out a messy room now I am looking at what needs to be fixed.

 

[GalaGirl]

The only other people I see are people in the worst stages of their lives at times, and then they get to go out and eat and drink and flirt. I feel like I am in the trenches of a war and they are back in the capital far away from it all.

I can imagine it super hard out in the "COVID trenches!" I hope you are getting support/help for yourself.

However it does bother me when she mentions how hard it was. I don't want to invalidate feelings, in my field we are trained (and I genuinely believe) that someone having it worse does not preclude a personal feeling of an individual in crisis, but some days I want to tell her how good they have it and that I need a little support too. When I did the other day her ability to respond was tepid, but I didn't know but for her the days have been fully scheduled with life. I can't fault her for that.

So tell her that.

And also seek support for you from people who share your "in the trenches" experience. Because while she can try to be supportive as best she can? She's not a front line worker and won't get it like another front line worker might.

But bonding is very, very special to me. I plan to explain the significance of sharing this and am happy to do so, provided she uses protection with the casual encounters. I worry a little she will see that as controlling but I absolutely do not want to risk anything...

You stating your preferences is "controlling" to you? Where are you getting that worry from? You seem to worry about coming off as controlling a lot.

Cuz if I ask you "Hey, wanna fluid bond next time we see each other?"

And you said to me "Well, I would only feel comfortable being fluid bonded with you and your husband if we all agree we are using BC/condoms with all other people. I prefer to limit the fluid bonding to just those three. I also don't want any oopsie babies, so I expect you'd have Plan B on hand? Because I believe _____ about abortions."

If I don't want to do any of that? I can just say "Ok. Thanks for telling me your preferences. I don't want to limit it to just 3 or use protections with other partners. So let's skip the fluid bonding between you and me then. And yes to Plan B on oopsie pregnancies as well as charting for TTA. "

Or you say "Well, since you don't want to do those things... let's skip the fluid bonding."

And that's that. Everyone free to make their choice. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything or being controlling. And not really in play here, since you are LDR and not getting to see her much anyway. If she's coming on vacation and you are open to discussion but do not want to fluid bond right then on that trip? Say so. Exercise your choices.

You know you slide if you drink? Don't drink around her on this trip. Exercise your choices.

As for clothes? Buy whatever you want to cheer you up. Exercise your choices.

I don't know why her being curious about what you are up to today irked you so much. Almost like you jumped to conclusions that SHE was going to jump to conclusions. Maybe she does do that behavior and you find it annoying?

It's fine to just say "I need a change and a cheer up from all this COVID" like you did.

Or just not even answer the call/text when it comes in so you can just focus on your fun time clothes shopping. Exercise your choices.

I think you could be more your own person.

Galagirl

 

[tallbosguy]

So tell her that.

I did, I didn't go into details of what I posted here but while on their vacation she reached out, and I mentioned I needed a little extra TLC. She told me I didn't seem happy and kinda suggested it was due to life. I agreed to an extent, told her I really just needed assurance. She didn't do great at it - but this is not the norm. I am unsure if it was her schedule or if she felt I had picked up on what was going on. Either way I did some self care to help myself out. No disrespect to her as sometimes she has just been perfect about reassurance, but I am the far better one when it comes to this. (In fact, most partners have told me my introspection and ability to empathize/relate is great, thanks in part to this job and education.)

And also seek support for you from people who share your "in the trenches" experience.

I have, and I think after it is all through I will talk with someone more professional. Has anyone on here dealt with poly-friendly pros?

You stating your preferences is "controlling" to you? Where are you getting that worry from? You seem to worry about coming off as controlling a lot.

The reason for this is that the norms from my previous relationships are so different, I worry that perhaps though while they worked before it is not the norm and would be something controlling when applied broadly. Sort of like how helmets are normal for motorcycles but not any other type of automobile.

As I spent the morning cleaning my walkway the comparison of polyamory being a huge forest popped into my head. I know the paths I walked before, but this is new, and I wasn't sure if I was in exceptionally unique and rare circumstances before or if I was being reasonable relative to what other people who have explored polydom have done.

As for the question - what irked me was the tone I took "why all the changes?" as. As when I replied I got an "oh" and then "yes you should be happy." To me that signals that she was fishing to see if I was going to make changes specifically to go out and date and such, which felt a little restrictive to me.

 

[tallbosguy]

Exercise your choices.

I replied to this independently because one of my big fears is not being to overcome the... disgust?... I feel about that if it is not something exclusive. It is just so personal to me I feel it would lead to me dialing back our relationship greatly.

 

[GalaGirl]

I replied to this independently because one of my big fears is not being to overcome the... disgust?... I feel about that if it is not something exclusive. It is just so personal to me I feel it would lead to me dialing back our relationship greatly.

If the idea of fluid bonding with her and her husband grosses you out if they don't use condom rule with all their casual partners? Fair enough. That's where you stand. You don't have to "get over it."

Could tell her "No, thanks." Decide NOT to fluid bond. Leave it at condom rule for all. Keep things simpler on you.

Because you might be willing to fluid bond with just them, but don't want to connected with all their partners through them.

You plan on moving after grad studies -- could deal with the question of fluid bonding again when you are actually closer aren't dealing in LDR and COVID any more.

You have enough on your plate right now without that worry on there too.

Galagirl

 

[icesong]

As for the question - what irked me was the tone I took "why all the changes?" as. As when I replied I got an "oh" and then "yes you should be happy." To me that signals that she was fishing to see if I was going to make changes specifically to go out and date and such, which felt a little restrictive to me.

This is as much of a reach as assuming the anklet was a definite "I'm going out for casual sex" token. I mean, I'd ask that if a partner of mine suddenly started taking an interest in fashion etc that he didn't have before, not because I was worried, but because it would be out of character and I'd be genuinely curious.

It seems like you're considering her nuances more than her actual words, at least from what you write. I certainly am a person that puts too much value on hints and things left unsaid but hanging in the air, but I've noticed that it never really helps anything and despite people thinking I'm fairly empathetic, I get things wrong a lot. And in this case _perhaps_ you're feeling insecure about the possibility of dating and what it will do to your relationship with your LDR, even if it is in the future, and so you're hearing suspicion or disappointment that may or may not actually be there.

 

[Magdlyn]

Well she wants to do it in a few months when they visit. Complicating this will be a period of very limited contact with her husband, who should be part of this conversation, in a short time.

What C wants is what she wants. What her husband wants is none of your business. She can deal with him and his feelings about fluid bonding with a promiscuous person. What you want is KEY. You decide what you need to feel like you're having safer sex. Then speak your truth. Poly can't work without honesty, to oneself first, and then with others.

Close! I work as part of a coordinated crisis effort, so not only health stuff but housing, etc. I will say this, and I do not get political, but things are getting better in many places faster than what is reported.

Thank you, I really do appreciate it alot! I took a drive this weekend to just find a secluded spot to let it all out. It feels a little better, but sort of like after cleaning out a messy room now I am looking at what needs to be fixed.

Good. Self care is so important.

 

[Magdlyn]

I have, and I think after it is all through I will talk with someone more professional. Has anyone on here dealt with poly-friendly pros?

I have in the past, and it helped me immeasurably. I've also talked to a couple of not so poly friendly therapists, and their advice was terrible and I fired them. Search around. Look for people who are good working with alternative lifestyles, identities, etc. Kink friendly, LGBTQ friendly therapists might be more open to and educated about polyamory and other open relationship arrangements.

The reason for this is that the norms from my previous relationships are so different, I worry that perhaps though while they worked before it is not the norm and would be something controlling when applied broadly. Sort of like how helmets are normal for motorcycles but not any other type of automobile.

If you're talking about condoms, poly people take using them very very seriously! We don't want to spread disease to an entire network. I just hope C and her h will be Covid free when they come to see you. How will that work? Will they self-isolate for 2 weeks prior? Will they have to get on a plane to get to you? I know you say there is less Covid in their area... but still. You can pick it up on a plane or in an airport, taxi, whatever. Some countries make you quarantine for 2 weeks when you arrive there, before you go to your final destination.

As I spent the morning cleaning my walkway the comparison of polyamory being a huge forest popped into my head. I know the paths I walked before, but this is new, and I wasn't sure if I was in exceptionally unique and rare circumstances before or if I was being reasonable relative to what other people who have explored polydom have done.

As for the question - what irked me was the tone I took "why all the changes?" as. As when I replied I got an "oh" and then "yes you should be happy." To me that signals that she was fishing to see if I was going to make changes specifically to go out and date and such, which felt a little restrictive to me.

You seem paranoid, maybe? And if she really was fishing, she is very insecure. I think you think she is really scared of you dating others and leaving her. It seems a bit selfish that she can go fuck anyone, but she's like, hoarding your loyalty because of her insecurity, or possible low self esteem. Is she ashamed of her exhibitionistic desires (the hotwifing)? Does she think she doesn't deserve your love? Do you need to talk more deeply about all this?

 

[tallbosguy]

This is as much of a reach as assuming the anklet was a definite "I'm going out for casual sex" token.

At first I was like, no! Lol. I might still be on that side of the fence, but after 3 years of learning tones and chats I think it was a minor flare on her side, it is pretty out of character for her to ask the question in the way it was structured unless she is stressed or bothered - then things become direct like a brain dump of sorts. I also notice alot of love bombing when she gets that way, and some comments like "you're a 10/10" are flattering and she has said it unsolicited prior, but are similar to how her behaviour has been before following heavy or serious talks. But you are absolutely correct with everything else, I shouldn't put much stock playing what if and all that aside, I should focus on finding a little happiness with my presentation.

You seem paranoid, maybe? And if she really was fishing, she is very insecure. I think you think she is really scared of you dating others and leaving her. It seems a bit selfish that she can go fuck anyone, but she's like, hoarding your loyalty because of her insecurity, or possible low self esteem. Is she ashamed of her exhibitionistic desires (the hotwifing)? Does she think she doesn't deserve your love? Do you need to talk more deeply about all this?

So a large part of why we became close, aside from our super compatible personalities, sexual kinks (mostly! aside from the number of partners and casualness), etc is this. Maybe about a year in she got really upset that I would hit a point in life and ghost her. A few months before that her H texted me saying he hoped my wife/gf/PP of the future would be okay with it, so I think it was a bubbling issue before it was presented to me, and that is okay! We spent alot of time reassuring each other, and since then have done so in person and electronically as well. We became close through it. I am not paranoid, and I know that sounds so "everyone else is crazy" but as I mention to icesong I have become really good at reading her tone on day to day texts. I also highlighted the follow up comments that she's displayed after former tough conversations. But you and icesong are right in saying - what is the point of speculation?

As for the other points;

I wouldn't say it is self-esteem but more of a "ticking clock" type panic. She is very confident with random people, but with me is really invested and supportive of me even beyond what I think of myself. And I know she is really scared of me dating others, she's mentioned it more than a couple times and I have fought that five alarm fire alongside her more than a few times. I know it is scary and hell, it is what I am going through now, but I know it is out of the goodness of her heart and her care. But she is concerned with the pretty typical "He'll marry a model genius" type.

As I mentioned before, she will not use the term hotwife and calls them "dates." Unless things are really hot and heavy, then she will use more liberal language, so I think you are right that she is a little ashamed. I also noticed that I am exempt from this language. I am a "relationship" and a boyfriend. Our dates are "trips" and not the other form of dates.

And I am not sure how to convey this aspect of my care anymore than I can over LDR. I have flown many hours to see her, and vice versa. I have told her that I am poly regardless if she was there or not, and that I would like to keep seeing her. Yet there is this worry by her, which while it is nice to reassure her and actually makes me feel valued (and hopefully vice versa) I keep fighting with her to defeat it. But we all know jealousy is a persistent son of a bitch.

What her husband wants is none of your business.

99.9% of the time, yes. But as I said he is a swinger, hardcore, and I know while she is too I think she is caught up in this to an extent- part of why she's fibbed despite our commitment to help each other and be clear. I worry that the pressure will not be a healthy nor stable part of it all if he has desires that are more liberal with fluid bonds, but we will cross that line when it comes.

I also know a close friend of theirs had an open relationship go terrible, so I think the suspicion of me being a "cowboy" is there since that happened recently as that is what happened to their friend, though I have been very readily clear that I want my own PP and have been very supportive of them. In fact, one of our earliest tough talks was that if things were to sour between them I would step out of the picture entirely as they were new and this can be tough for everyone. This policy is something I always ask for with newish couples, as to not pressure them with my pressence but rather let them reassure each other and strengthen their bond between each other.

Ironically, she's mentioned, him and I are very alike and different enough that we're unique but often when discussing stuff I will be told "OMG H is just like that."

 

[GalaGirl]

So a large part of why we became close, aside from our super compatible personalities, sexual kinks etc is this.

Are you saying part of how you became close is because she presents as "damsel in distress" and you like being the "white knight" because that makes you feel valued? But at the same time... you are kinda over it and no longer want to so do much reassuring and propping her up everything time she has a thing?

Yet there is this worry by her, which while it is nice to reassure her and actually makes me feel valued (and hopefully vice versa) I keep fighting with her to defeat it. But we all know jealousy is a persistent son of a bitch.

If she thinks you will run off with that "model genius" then gets her own self upset? She's the one doing self triggering behavior. Is it even your job to fix that?

Because you can be appropriately reassuring, and then tell her to stop doing that behavior. And that's it. Leave it to her to stop self triggering. Because her stuff is her job to manage.

You cannot perpetually fill her bucket if she's the one constantly kicking it over. It will get tiresome like you fill the endless black hole of need.

If you choose to give this one all your time and attention (the mission creep) so you are always busy being her bucket filler? How can you make space in your life to date new people locally and seek that primary you want?

And I know she is really scared of me dating others, she's mentioned it more than a couple times and I have fought that five alarm fire alongside her more than a few times.

Could try something new and just go date. Rip the bandaid off. And let her discover you are true to you word. You are still there. You still value your relationship with her. There is no doom just cuz you started dating other people.

Galagirl

 

[Magdlyn]

At first I was like, no! I might still be on that side of the fence. But after 3 years of learning her tones and having chats, I think it was a minor flare on her side. It is pretty out of character for her to ask the question in the way it was structured, unless she is stressed or bothered. Then things become direct, like a brain dump of sorts.

I also notice a lot of love bombing when she gets that way. Comments like, "You're a 10 (out of) 10," are flattering. She has said this, unsolicited, prior. But this is how her behaviour has been, following heavy or serious talks. But you are absolutely correct with everything else. I shouldn't put much stock in playing "what if."

So, she's paranoid and as GG says, you are constantly reassuring her you're not going anywhere, even after 3 years! I agree, it's time you date others. All these words are meaningless, if she's still panicking, lying ("fibbing"), and having 5 alarm fire behaviors.

A large part of why we became close, aside from our super compatible personalities, and our sexual kinks (mostly! aside from the number of partners and casualness), etc., is this. Maybe about a year in, she got really upset, thinking that I would hit a point in life and ghost her. A few months before that, her H texted me saying that he hoped my future wife/gf/PP would be okay with it.

I think it was a bubbling issue before it was presented to me, and that is okay! We spend a lot of time reassuring each other. We became close through this. I am not paranoid. I know that sounds like, "everyone else is crazy," but as I mentioned to icesong, I have become really good at reading her tone on day-to-day texts. I also highlighted the follow up comments that she's displayed after former tough conversations. But you and icesong are right in aking, "What is the point of speculation?"

I wouldn't say it is self-esteem, but more of a "ticking clock" panic. She is very confident with random people. But, she is really invested and supportive of me, even beyond what I think of myself. And I know she is really scared of me dating others. I have fought that five-alarm fire alongside her more than a few times. I know it is scary. Hell, it is what I am going through now. But I know it is out of the goodness of her heart and her care. But she is concerned with the pretty typical, "He'll marry a model genius" type.

As I mentioned before, she will not use the term "hotwife." She calls them "dates." Unless things are really hot and heavy, then she will use more liberal language. I think you are right. She is a little ashamed. I also noticed that I am exempt from this language. I am a "relationship" and a boyfriend. Our dates are "trips," and not the other form of dates.

I have told her that I am poly, regardless if she was there or not, and that I would like to keep seeing her... While it is nice to reassure her and it actually makes me feel valued... I keep fighting with her to defeat it. But we all know jealousy is a persistent son of a bitch.

99.9% of the time, yes. But as I said he is a swinger, hardcore, and I know while she is too, I think she is caught up in this to an extent- part of why she's fibbed despite our commitment to help each other and be clear. I worry that the pressure will not be a healthy nor stable part of it all if he has desires that are more liberal with fluid bonds, but we will cross that line when it comes.

So both C and her H are hardcore swingers, and yet they want to be in a fluid-bonded network with you. That just sounds risky. I know I've imagined scenarios where I might be fucking a stranger (whether one-on-one, or in a group sex session at a swinger event), and he's behind me doggie style, and since I don't know his own ethics, I could imagine him actually being a creep, and deciding he doesn't like the condom, and just quickly pulls his penis out, removes the condom, and then puts his dick back in me, without my knowledge.

Men can be creepy! Men can be selfish, uncaring, and not even be thinking about their own safety. They just want to have that full sensation, to get their rocks off quickly in heat of the moment.

Please note, I am not a swinger, so this was just my imagination. I am sure it happens though, especially when people have a few drinks in them. And you know this, because you did it. And you spoke of "losing control," as if you or your partner couldn't catch HIV or other STIs before you ejaculate. STIs can be passed through pre-cum.

I also know a close friend of theirs had an open relationship go terrible, so I think the suspicion of me being a "cowboy" is there, since that happened recently... to their friend... I have been very clear that I want my own PP. I have been very supportive of them. In fact, one of our earliest tough talks was that if things were to sour between them, I would step out of the picture entirely.

Ironically, she's mentioned, him and I are very alike and different enough that we're unique but often when discussing stuff I will be told "OMG H is just like that."

 

[Marcus]

Men can be creepy! Men can be selfish, uncaring, and not even be thinking about their own safety. They just want to have that full sensation, to get their rocks off quickly in heat of the moment.

Just like women, and everything in between, correct.

This war of the sexes shit is so tired.

 

[Magdlyn]

Just like women, and everything in between, correct.

This war of the sexes shit is so tired.

It is. But I've never been raped by a woman, myself.

 

[tallbosguy]

I agree, it's time you date others. All these words are meaningless, if she's still panicking, lying ("fibbing"), and having 5 alarm fire behaviors.

I am unsure how assurance would be meaningless. With all due respect, it seems pretty harsh, no?

As for me dating others, it is a topic to bring up in the near future when I feel better and our schedules allow for some time on the phone.

And you know this, because you did it

At her suggestion, yes I did. This was not what you suggested because what you said above is rape under changing the condition of consent. And what you mentioned about STI's, etc is why I stopped... that moment of logic over emotion caused me to hit the brakes and send that idea right through the windscreen.

But yesterday we had a nice chat where she apologized - unsolicited - for being busy and telling me how much she liked me. I really appreciated it as it was unexpected and helped comfort a bit of that discomfort as I continue to walk this journey. Thank you everyone as always.

 

[Magdlyn]

I am unsure how assurance would be meaningless. With all due respect, it seems pretty harsh, no?

I just mean that if you've been reassuring her for 3 years and she's still have 5 alarm fire panic attacks, maybe you could try something different. I mean, I think that's why you're here. It seems she only feels better when you "reassure her" for a short time, and then loses it again? I could be wrong.

As for me dating others, it is a topic to bring up in the near future when I feel better and our schedules allow for some time on the phone.

At her suggestion, yes I did. This was not what you suggested because what you said above is rape under changing the condition of consent. And what you mentioned about STI's, etc is why I stopped... that moment of logic over emotion caused me to hit the brakes and send that idea right through the windscreen.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply you were raping her. (I was replying to Marcus, who complained about the "battle of the sexes," from a place of privilege, I believe, as a white Western male.)

I meant that some guys she swings with might play fast and loose with the condom use, so the only safe thing for you to do to protect yourself would be to use condoms with her. If I had a swinger bf who was having rather frequent anonymous sex, "swinging hardcore" as you called it, I'd never go bareback with him. She might think her "dates" are using condoms correctly, but you can't be sure with randoms. In my opinion.

But yesterday we had a nice chat where she apologized - unsolicited - for being busy and telling me how much she liked me. I really appreciated it as it was unexpected and helped comfort a bit of that discomfort as I continue to walk this journey. Thank you everyone as always.

 

[tallbosguy]

I meant that some guys she swings with might play fast and loose with the condom use, so the only safe thing for you to do to protect yourself would be to use condoms with her. If I had a swinger bf who was having rather frequent anonymous sex, "swinging hardcore" as you called it, I'd never go bareback with him. She might think her "dates" are using condoms correctly, but you can't be sure with randoms. In my opinion.

Ah no worries, I just sat down from the day! I didn't want people to think I tried something like that.

I mean, would I love a fluid bond? Absolutely. I am going to see how once things are safe in terms of COVID this could be, like if she wanted to get a test before (I offer it to anyone). But also, if that is something she does with everyone it won't be with me, even if clean.

And yeah, your first point is right but I notice like me it comes with her times of crisis. I don't mean to make folks think that she is like that everyday, but is very similar to me in which it crops up with major stress and a combination of seeing the other in a way that we perceive to put ourselves in a position of "loss" no matter how true or not that is.

 

[MeeraReed]

Hmm, okay, so one thing I forgot to mention when describing my complete-autonomy, pro-casual-sex approach to poly is that my partner and I use condoms regularly, both with ourselves and with other partners. It is such a normal default for me that I didn't even think to mention it. It's just part of what I/we need to do in order to maintain sexual freedom. (I don't even think of it as a "rule" that my partner and I have, since it's what we would each be doing anyway if we were single, I guess).

I personally don't use the term "fluid bonded" and am skeptical of the idea of connecting barrier-free sex to emotional intimacy. It just doesn't have that significance for me. Like, it's purely practical. Sometimes my partner and I are able to not use condoms--like if he's just had negative test results and no other partners--but these are always temporary periods. Condoms are the default. (And for me, I actually like them for practical reasons even if I were monogamous and weren't on birth control--I don't always like ejaculate in me! Sometimes the cleanup is easier with a condom!)

My partner does prefer the sensation without condoms, but he considers condoms a reasonable price for not having a closed poly arrangement. No big deal to him.

Anyway, I just don't ascribe emotional significance or emotional bonding to whether or not we use condoms.

For you, clearly fluid bonding is very emotionally significant. So I would caution you to think carefully about doing it with C. I personally wouldn't want to go barrier-free with someone whose partner is a swinger.

Also, if C isn't on birth control...??? Yipes. One of the reasons my partner is so careful about using condoms with casual encounters is to prevent pregnancy, because he can't know for sure what a casual partner is doing for birth control.

Another thing to think about: if you get a primary partner someday, would you want to not use condoms with her? And would you then want to use condoms again with C? And would that be emotionally difficult for you and C to "downgrade" from fluid-bonding to barrier sex?

(One reason I don't say "fluid bonded" for myself is that I don't think it's an emotional "downgrade" to change to barriers for practical reasons.)

The more you write about C, honestly, the more I want to revise my initial assessment of your situation. I don't think you're being controlling about her casual encounters. It sounds like she might be a little controlling of YOUR dating encounters. I'm wondering if she wants to "fluid bond" with you mostly because she knows it's emotionally significant for YOU and she wants the security (for HER) of taking things to the next emotional level with you.

That is perhaps a harsh judgment. But she is starting to sound a little more vague about what she wants / who she is than I initially thought. She doesn't actually identify as a hotwife? She is vague/tells you only after the fact about her encounters? When you tried to relate her casual flirtations to your experience with casual makeouts back in college, she got a little defensive and demanded that you'd have to tell her about a casual makeout now.

I'm seeing what you mean about the double standard.

 

[tdh]

I meant that some guys she swings with might play fast and loose with the condom use, so the only safe thing for you to do to protect yourself would be to use condoms with her. If I had a swinger bf who was having rather frequent anonymous sex, "swinging hardcore" as you called it, I'd never go bareback with him. She might think her "dates" are using condoms correctly, but you can't be sure with randoms. In my opinion.

Having dated a few women who also were swingers (who really run the the swinging community from what I can tell as an outsider), this is not something they ran into. Swinging community tend to have strict rules and guidelines requiring protection and regular tests and remove people who do not follow the rules. Removing protective sexual barriers without the consent of the sexual partner is not what the swinging community is about. It's about having sexy fun with communication and consent.

That being said some do practice swinging with other partners, usually if everyone in the group has been tested recently with limited risks, unprotected at times. Usually if this happens it is usually in private.

@tallbosguy If you have multiple partners in a non-closed group, protection is always recommended for all partners safety. Part of the biggest issue you appear to have stated is you can't ever really know your risk because her husband or her might just forget to tell you about sexual interaction to allow you to share the bond you want to. Unsolicited apologies for an action is nice but it is a lot harder to deal with if a health risk happens.

(One reason I don't say "fluid bonded" for myself is that I don't think it's an emotional "downgrade" to change to barriers for practical reasons.)

Never looked at it quite this way but I agree. Actually in using barriers can be more emotionally close then not because you show your care about your partner(s) health enough to protect them and yourself at all times. That can be just as emotional in my book then unprotected sex.

 

[Magdlyn]

Having dated a few women who also were swingers (who really run the the swinging community from what I can tell as an outsider), this is not something they ran into. Swinging community tend to have strict rules and guidelines requiring protection and regular tests and remove people who do not follow the rules. Removing protective sexual barriers without the consent of the sexual partner is not what the swinging community is about. It's about having sexy fun with communication and consent.

That being said some do practice swinging with other partners, usually if everyone in the group has been tested recently with limited risks, unprotected at times. Usually if this happens it is usually in private.

As I said, I am not a swinger, although I have dated a couple of men who currently were, or had been.

I think in this situation, it's not an organized swinger group, but more of the hotwife sitch, where she dresses up in sexy clothing (and maybe that ankle bracelet) and goes to a bar and picks up random guys? I mean, hotwifing involves that, with a dash of cuckoldry pleasure for the husband. So some random guy from a bar is more of what I was thinking of, than a swinging community, with proper sex health rules, and the authority to kick someone out if they don't follow said rules.

@tallbosguy If you have multiple partners in a non-closed group, protection is always recommended for all partners safety. Part of the biggest issue you appear to have stated is you can't ever really know your risk because her husband or her might just forget to tell you about sexual interaction to allow you to share the bond you want to. Unsolicited apologies for an action is nice but it is a lot harder to deal with if a health risk happens.


Never looked at it quite this way but I agree. Actually in using barriers can be more emotionally close then not because you show your care about your partner(s) health enough to protect them and yourself at all times. That can be just as emotional in my book then unprotected sex.

I'll just say that at one point, my nesting partner Pixi preferred me to use condoms with my male lovers for quite some time, even though I am past menopause and infertile, and even if we knew how sexually active the guy might be with others. For her, it was an emotional, slightly possessive thing. But she got over it a few years into our relationship.

I like going without condoms for the ease of going between different sex acts, vaginal and oral. I hate oral with a condom, yuck, the latex tastes terrible.