Relationship imbalance and partner insensitivity

[astrosneddy]

I did not realise how long I had made this post. I will break it into two parts because I am unsure how to shorten it.

Part 1

My wife and I have been “poly,” or maybe more ENM (CNM) for our whole relationship, coming up to 16 years. It was largely not active for much of this time, due to incorrectly going about it initially, and the fact that there was not an obvious community for us to lean on during that time. We did not even have the word “polyamorous” to use until we had been married and open for some time.

There is a long and arduous story about the trials and tribulations of that time, but what was most important and most played out during that time was that we loved one another above all else. To be concise, though, I am going to skip over much of it, with the more important facts of things.

Firstly, my wife is bisexual, and I am not. However, she was in denial about that for a while, and is only really starting to openly accept and explore it now. I can honestly say I am not bothered by her being with other people, although we have not really explored that where feelings are involved. But we have always been clear that we think the real thing we sought was something that had more connection than one-night stands and hook-ups.

We had a bunch of different experiences here and there. But eventually my wife decided she couldn’t do it anymore, as she felt too insecure and stated that she wanted to pull the pin on it. (We had made the decision in ignorance, that if either of us wanted to stop, we would stop.) I had become too invested at this stage, seeing ENM as more of a sexual identity than a choice. And while I was willing to stop, I did not think I could honestly say I could do so without issue, or that remaining faithful was certain, despite the fact I would not go seeking anything. I was honest and told her she ,as my priority, but I do not think I can be monogamous.

This started what she considered to be a don’t-ask-don’t-tell stage of our relationship. I do not consider it the same, as I did, in fact, both ask and tell during this time. It was just that our open communication around such things had become very strained. I also made many mistakes trying to encourage or instigate sexual activities between the two of us and others. This was not unicorn seeking, although it would have seemed this way, but an attempt to encourage my wife to not lose all hope about our ability to walk that path. Silly, I know, but we were young and did not have community support.

My wife was insecure about the relationship, and I wanted her to feel secure. Besides lying to her and saying, “I will be monogamous” I did what she asked. She told me she was threatened by a certain woman I was seeing (before the pin was pulled) and I stopped. She later (after the pin, when we did on occasion still have group activities) told me she did not want to have a sexual element with this woman anymore, but focus on the friendship, and I stopped trying to facilitate sex.

I am not claiming that I did everything correctly. In fact, I did much wrong, and in the things I did do, I most likely did them begrudgingly, and unintentionally built resentment and anger towards her, as a result. Our sex life crashed. She insisted she was still in love with and attracted to me, but there was nothing between us except for our friendship foundation and marriage title and familiarity. I found occasional sex in the form of an old friend I am not attracted to, who is a really average lay (sorry to be blunt) and represents everything I believed would not make my wife insecure at all. I literally only caught up with them on the rare occasion when I could no longer sit there and masturbate and look at myself in the mirror with any self-respect.

Things have now changed. Things are almost the entire opposite. My wife and I had a child, and we both turned 40. She began therapy and her whole life is changing for the better. I am really pleased for her about this. It made her realize she had ignored her bisexuality and I am aware that bi, literally means both, she was referring to the fact that she had not explored her attraction to females and had any sober and meaningful sexual experiences with women or relationships. This started her back into the polyamory lifestyle.

She has been talking about it all year, apparently, and I have not been ignoring her discussions, but in many years past we talked about this a lot, like after group sex or other things, and I would get my hopes up only to have them dashed. So I did not put any weight into things this time, to protect myself.

From my point of view, things seem to be moving very quickly now, but from hers, she has been moving slowly towards it all year.

I understand the difference, and that is fine, but there are some genuine concerns and issues I am having with how it is being approached, and how some or many of her actions and approaches seem insensitive and ignorant of my feelings, or the fact that I gave up so much for many years to make sure she was secure. I feel I am getting no sensitivity in return, despite the fact we both agree, in hindsight, that I should not have allowed her to veto things, and should have engaged in better, more honest and healing discussions. I remind you again, we had no community support and had to figure out a lot on our own. We also had no idea where and how our childhood traumas were going to play into things.

I was not left in the dark with all her changes. We both started dating-app profiles. We were walking down the path together, although she had made it clear she wanted to date solo and not together (which I did not want either, although still enjoy and desire group activities with her). She had a little luck with dating, going on two dates with women after starting her profile.

She still does not know how to proceed there, how “it all works,” dating women, making moves etc. This resulted in her deciding to start chatting with guys again. I didn't have a problem with this because she explained it as being for research, not about looking for genuine connection, but comparing the formula of how the process works with guys, as she knows that formula, and seeing how it can apply to women. She then went on two dates with men and I was still fine.

I have my own stuff going on during this time. I got diagnosed with ADHD, and lost my job, so was not really in the position to go dating, etc. Instead, I focused on getting a new job and sorting out what my neurodiversity meant for myself and my family. I am still doing that.

As far as I knew, she was seeing or chatting with four to six people. I know now that it was/is just one. Things did not work out or progress with the two women, and one of the men called things off, as things had changed in his life. The other two people were random group sex she had after a night out she had at a place we used to go together (where I'd always tried to have the night end with some group activity, as it is somewhat of an erotic club, and it is common for people to leave together for such things). But I stayed at home with our child that night, and she went out and had the night I'd always wanted us to have, that she always vetoed.

I feel like she keeps shifting the goal posts and unilaterally making decisions that affect us both, by presuming my response, instead of discussing it. I also do not want to invade her privacy, but she is not sharing near enough with me for me to understand where she is at, and not be shocked or surprised by it.

 

[astrosneddy]

Continued from part 1

She also uses the past to justify her actions or desires, based upon what I did in desperation to not be entirely a sexless adult, and ignores the why of that. Instead, she says: I had sex, so she can, which is true. Again, I am not stopping her. But I think it is not fair to equate someone I slept with, from my childhood past, simply a booty call with no emotional attachment, to someone you have just met, who fills you with NRE and you have only known for 3 months.

I see this has turned into a longer and more drawn-out thing, so I will try to wrap it up.

I am in a place of great insecurity right now. While I support her and believe we can do this, I realize there are great holes in our relationship from our past, things I do not understand, that I want to understand. I cannot support her unconditionally, as she would like me to, without that context. I feel taken advantage of.

She is asking me to support her in ways she was not able to support me, or would not support me. I am not asking her to stop, but slow down, or more directly, be a part of making sure our relationships foundation is solid, before moving away from it, and do the work to go forward in polyamory correctly this time. We have hardly discussed anything, despite her insistence otherwise. We do not know what our wants/needs/boundaries/agreements or anything are.

She has made many presumptions along the way that have hurt and demonstrated a real insensitivity to me. For example, the woman she asked to stop having a sexual component with, to focus on the friendship: she decided to tell her she is attracted to her and start up a kind of FWB thing with her, without checking with me (not that she has to) but without even considering that it could upset me, or that I might have been interested in this woman myself. Her reason was: it had been so long she did not think I was interested. But this feels like an insult, because I only stopped acting on any interest because of her expressed request for me to do so. And I never stopped making it clear I was interested. It is like she is employing cognitive dissonance to justify her behavior.

I am struggling to proceed here. I want to let her do as she wants, but she has begun treating me like some sort of prison warden. One moment it is like I am the obstacle in her path to freedom and sex, and the next I just restricting her and trying to punish her for the past. I am not even stopping her from doing anything, I am just honestly expressing my feelings about things. We have had some bad conversations, but I am the only one of us both attempting nonviolent communication, non-accusatory communication, non-shaming communication and active listening, as we both are terrible with interrupting each other.

She was about to have sex with a guy she has known for about 10 weeks and called it off the night before due to, as she put it, having no idea what other currency she had to prove to me that she takes our relationship seriously.

I was insisted she did not do so, but she had already. And now she has proven to herself that I am the obstacle, despite it being self-imposed. Now she wants to know when she can get back to it with him, etc., and I am being positioned as the person who hit pause, despite it being her.

I am bothered because when I stopped, because she requested it in the past, there was no room to ask when it might change. It was left open-ended and I was expected to deal. Now she is admitting to genuine upset and feeling parented, because when pressed for an answer as to how long this “pause” might take, I said maybe Feb-March next year, as that is when our couple's therapy is likely to take place.

I cannot deal with this "one rule for you, another rule for me" thing that seems to be going on. I have attempted to be clear in my communication, but she has not heard me 90% of the time. She goes back to the fact that I am insecure about another guy, another penis, which is not the case. It is the how of it. It is the fact that she is upset that this might not happen cos she has invested time in this and that there is another human involved. And EVERYthing she complains about, or is feeling. are things I know myself from our past. I felt them, I experienced them, and I was not entitled to complain or be upset or make her feel guilty for it. But that is how things play out now.

I am lost cos I cannot find information about this online. Imbalance, and insensitive actions, being presented as my fault, being relegated to the role of punisher, when all I have done is follow the guidelines I have read from what successful polyamory looks like. I need advice on how to proceed here.

We have just finished Polysecure, and that showed me that what I want is to move forward, feeling that security in my base. But it seems like she is not interested in doing the work, although she says she is. Her focus keeps coming back to when she can have sex with this guy. I probably would not mind, but it is the question coming all the time, before we have really even sat down together and begun trying to understand our relationship.

I am sick of feeling like it is all my issue, as well, given she seems unwilling to acknowledge this disparity between the way she wants me to handle things, and how she did. It is like she wanted me to be the bigger man in the past, and the bigger man now. I can absolutely support her, but without context or a good framework in doing so, everything I do feels like I am being taken advantage of, taken for granted, or as disposable. I cannot do so and feel a sense of self-respect or dignity.

Please tell me this experience is not unique to me and that there is some advice out there for those of us who have had a similar path.

I want to end, noting that while I have spoken harshly in some regards, she is an incredible woman. Most of these issues are miscommunications, not actual intended actions from her. But it does seem off, in that she is not a stupid person, and she knows me well, 16 years well. It is not unreasonable to expect her to recognize some of these things.

I also know I am problematic myself. I have been emotional, upset, insecure etc. But much of my life is in a state of upheaval. I am needing her support in a similar way to how she needed it from me in the past, but she is very apprehensive to provide it.

 

[Bobbi]

There’s a lot in this to unpack, so I’m just going with the overall story. You don’t have miscommunication, you have no communication. Communication takes effort to listen AND understand the meaning of what’s being conveyed. This needs to happen with both people. One topic at a time without switch tracking. You have many years of bad communication habits that need to be unlearned, but ithis would take work by both of you, either with a therapist or, if you are really willing to work yourselves, a good podcast or three.

The thing is, there has to be a desire for change. Love won’t create that, nor will assuming it will all work out if you let it go long enough.

She is seeing a therapist that has been super helpful. Great! Now you two need to see one to help you talk about the important things.

I think if you don’t get this sorted, one of you will have had enough and the relationship will be over.

 

[astrosneddy]

There’s a lot in this to unpack so I’m just going with the overall story. You don’t have miscommunication, you have no communication. Communication takes effort to listen AND understand meaning of what’s being conveyed. This needs to happen with both people. One topic at a time without switch tracking. You have many years of bad communication habits that need to be unlearned but it would take work by both of you either from a therapist or if you are really willing to work yourselves, a good podcast or three.

the thing is, there has to be a desire for change. Love won’t create that nor will assuming it will all work out if you let it go long enough.

She is seeing a therapist that has been super helpful, great! Now you two need to see one to help you talk about the important things.

I think if you don’t get this sorted, one of you will have had enough and the relationship will be over.

I think you are correct on that last point. She doesn't seem to think that's the case. I feel her distance, but she doesn't. We are both going to therapy. Mine has just begun, and in the new year we will be getting couple's counseling from an experienced well-recommended therapist.

I think the bad thing is, we used to have great communication, or the willingness to have it. But now it feels like like getting blood from a stone.

I'm not trying to get you to take sides at all, but I really need help identifying if I'm being entirely unreasonable, or if any, some, most, or none of the way I'm feeling is justified or not. I'm unsure whether I'm right to stand by my feelings, and the sender of injustice or insensitivity to the past, if not. I do not want to sit with these feelings if the view is I'm not within my rights to feel this way.

 

[GalaGirl]

I hope you feel better for the vent and airing out some. I could be wrong in my impression and have missed things, but, FWIW, this is what pops out to me.

She has been talking about it all year apparently, and I have not been ignoring her discussions, but in many years past we talked about this... after group sex or other things, and I would get my hopes up, only to have them dashed, so I did not put any weight into thing this time to protect myself. From my point of view, things seem to be moving very quickly now, but from hers, she has been moving slowly towards it all year.

You said you weren't ignoring it, but you weren't listening, in order to protect yourself. So basically you were not listening either way. Do you see that?

I also made many mistakes trying to encourage or instigate sexual activities between the two of us and others. This was not unicorn seeking, although it would have seemed this way, but an attempt to encourage my wife to not lose all hope about our ability to walk that path.

You were pushing group sex on her? Did you not respect her "No" at that time? Can you see that might not be a fun thing to relive for her, and so she's not interested in sharing group sex with you anymore?

You can go have group sex on your own.

The other two people were random group sex she had after a night out she had a t a place we used to go together where I always tried to have the night end with some group activity as it is somewhat of an erotic club, and it is common for people to leave together for such things. But I stayed at home with our child, and she went out and had the night I always wanted us to have that she always vetoed.

Is this some kind of FOMO? You really seem to want to do group sex with your wife and get moody that she does not want to share that with you anymore.

My wife was insecure about the relationship, and I wanted her to feel secure. Besides lying to her and saying, “I will be monogamous,” I did what she asked.

So how was the lying helping?

You dumped the one woman she had issues with and took up with your friend. Were you open during that time, or was it cheating?

I am not claiming that I did everything correctly, in fact I did much wrong. The things I did do, I most likely did begrudgingly, and unintentionally built resentment and anger towards her.

But why even do this, rather than break up, if things were no longer compatible?

I understand the difference, and that is fine, but there are some genuine concerns and issues I am having with how it is being approached, and how some or many of her actions and approaches seem insensitive and ignorant of my feelings or the fact that I gave up so much for many years to make sure she was secure, and feel I am getting no returned sensitivity,

If you over-gave in the past, or gave grudgingly, that's on you. You didn't have to do that, or do self-neglect.

She doesn't have to "get even" and treat you poorly now. But she also doesn't have to over-give or give grudgingly, like you did, either. Can you see that?

Despite the fact that we both agree, in hindsight, that I should not have allowed her to veto things, and should have engaged in better, more honest and healing discussion, I remind you again we had no community support and had to figure out a lot on our own. We also had no idea where and how our childhood traumas were going to play into things.

And this time around you have more experience. You know to watch out for:

• Bending over backwards at one's own expense
• No vetoes
• More honest and healing conversations
• Seeking community support and a counselor
• Healing childhood traumas

For example, with the woman she asked to stop having sexual component with to focus on the friendship, she decided to tell her she was attracted to her and started up a kind of FWB thing with her, without checking with me (not that she had to) but without even considering that it could upset me, or that I might have been interested in this woman myself. Her reason was it had been so long she did not think I was interested.

If this is now open on both sides, for casual or group sex, FWBs, and full-on polyamory, you could talk about the new agreements and safer sex practices, at a minimum. Say NO if she wants to you "gate keep" her sex life. She can share sex however she wants to. It's her body. She is responsible for her choices.

You get to share sex however you want, too. It's your body. You are responsible for your choices. So long as people maintain safer sex agreements, set this aside.

Date your own people, though. Don't try do group sex together or date the same person.

But this feels like an insult, because I only stopped acting on any interest because of her expressed request for me to do so. And I never stopped making it clear I was interested. It is like she is employing cognitive dissonance to justify her behavior.

You need to own your choices more. Take more personal responsibility. You could have DECLINED her request back then.

Taking it personally, like an insult now, is what? You carrying a big resentment chip on your shoulder all these years?

If you never stopped making it clear that you were interested in open marriage, why did you tune her out last year when she brought up polyamory? Or is the problem that you want ENM or CNM and group sex, but do NOT want polyamory?

What cognitive dissonance? There are two very long two posts, covering a lot of data. I'm not sure I read it well.

One moment it is like I am the obstacle in her path to freedom and sex, and the next I just restricting her and trying to punish her for the past. I am not even stopping her from doing anything, I am just honestly expressing my feelings about things. We have had some bad conversations, but I am the only one of us both, attempting nonviolent communication, non accusatory communication, non-shaming communication and active listening, as we both are terrible at interrupting each other.

You two need to work on communication. You have a long history of bungling along due to youth, lack of education, lack of resources. What are the excuses/reasons now for bungling along and not dealing with the communication issues?

Is some of that true? Are you trying to punish her for past things? If you hold resentments from the past, you could let them go, or just end things with her, so they no longer apply. Hanging on to those is not serving you well.

If she wants you to support her unconditionally, you can say no. There are conditions. List them. Safer sex practices might be one of them.

I've loved my DH a lot, for decades. But if he goes bonkers and starts having unsafe sex, hitting on minors, kicking dogs, beating up old people, or robbing banks, I'm out. I don't have to consent to put up with ANYTHING from a partner, even a long-term one.

Internet people might be able to help you with one or two things, but there is SO MUCH here. I think you'd do best talking to a poly counselor and figuring out if you are even compatible for doing polyamory together and help sort out poly agreements and help navigating this new chapter.

I am not clear on what you want.

Maybe what fits best is being open to ENM/CNM on your side, and poly on her side, and no more group sex with her. You can do that with other people.

You might even consider individual counselors for each person to address childhood traumas.

Here are resources:

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory

Polyamory-Friendly Professionals Directory

www.polyfriendly.org

I am sick of feeling like it is all my issue as well, given she seems unwilling to acknowledge this disparity between the way she wants me to handle things, and how she did. It is like she wants me to be the bigger man in the past, and the bigger man now. I can absolutely support her, but without context or a good framework in doing so, everything I do feels like I am being taken advantage of, taken for granted or as disposable. I cannot do so and feel a sense of self respect or dignity.

What is it you need, an apology from her for past behaviors? Do you need to apologize to yourself for being a people pleaser and not saying NO? Both? Other things?

Do you hold onto grudges for a long time?

Where can you two meet in the middle, so you can start this new chapter on a clean slate?

Sometimes it is helpful to break things down in detail. Other times that just keeps it in a stuck place. It's better to share ownership to be able to MOVE ON. Like you say, "Fine. We both had a share in the situation making." Nitpicking who did what just keeps it stuck. If something was so bad it is unforgivable, BREAK UP so both can move on.

Talk that over with your counselor.

When I am needing her support in a similar way to how she needed it from me in the past, she is very apprehensive to provide it.

I get you are seeking a new job plus have an ADHD dx.

In the past, you overdid things when you put her first. Now, to make it "fair," you want her to overdo things too? When do things get to be a "normal amount" here, rather than taking turns overdoing it and being miserable from overextending yourselves?

I encourage you both to speak to poly counselors. Otherwise you risk making the same kinds of bungling-along mistakes you both did in the past. Do it differently this time.

You could stop oversharing details about other people dates/sex. Just share the basics for safer sex practices/sex health. The rest sounds TMI and seems to aggravate you. You sound really enmeshed with each other, like you two need to detangle some. Is that part of the childhood trauma? Abandonment stuff?

The biggest common thread I see in reading all that is: "What about me!? What about our sex life?!" Is that true?

 

[GalaGirl]

I think you are correct on that last point. She doesn't seem to think that's the case, but I feel her distance, she doesn't.

There could there be codependency here. In doing her therapy this past year maybe she's moved towards being healthier. Do you perceive it as "loss" or "abandonment," when really it is a "healthier her"? Maybe that's something to talk about when you set up your counseling.

 

[astrosneddy]

Thank you for your reply, I appreciate it. I've answered some of your questions below.

You said you weren't ignoring it, but you weren't listening to protect yourself, so basically, not taking it in. Do you see that?

Absolutely. I agree I did miss this, as I was caught up in my diagnosis and what I needed to do to be my best well-managed self, so it didn't interfere in my loved ones' lives. That's on me. But I do think she was also aware that when I was out I was not really aware, and did not make sure to get clear consent on certain things.

Is this some kind of FOMO?

Absolutely, in that it is something I enjoy. It's not actually something I instigated, just something I tried to do. Now, in this instance, it feels like running my face in it. "You weren't good enough in exactly the same circumstances previously for me to want to engage in this. Now, one night without you and two random people and it's on." This feels painful, like she's being selfish.

I didn't push group sex, either. I probably expressed that incorrectly. I've also never taken a 'no' as anything but a no. She did not have to get drunk to have group sex. She would get drunk, make a move on someone and start group sex. I joined in because I was not really in a position to not, without making a scene, and because I found it pleasant, but I never had any awareness of what was happening until it did. What I encouraged was a way of us finding that experience without her getting blind drunk. I was trying to ascertain when we went out, if that was on the table or not, because it was hard to be in the position of not knowing if we were going to see so and do because you plan on drinking and having sex, or if we're just hanging out. It turns out she doesn't know until she's that drunk. I felt like I couldn't settle into a night so uncertain.

You dumped the one woman she has issues with and took up with your friend. Were you open during that time?

Yes, she stepped away from poly and we moved to an open framework that she was not interested in partaking in, and also lost all interest and libido for sex.

So how was the lying helping to feel secure?

I'm not sure what you're referring to. I don't think I lied, but again, I'm not sure what you're referring to.

If you over-gave in the past, or gave grudgingly, that's is on you. You didn't have to do that or do self-neglect.

I didn't know then that I had a choice. I didn't have a poly community then. All I had was the person I cared for most telling me they felt insecure and asking me to help them not be, by doing what they asked of me. I'm older now and more aware of my psychology, but was not that aware then.

She doesn't have to "get even" and treat you poorly now. But she also doesn't have to over-give or give grudgingly like you did, either. Can you see that?

I don't feel she has to, either. I don't think it's asking anywhere near too much that someone you care about, who cares about you, treats you and your feelings with respect and honor, and if they were going to make requests of you that they themselves were not able to fulfill, they approach such things with a level of sensitivity and mutual respect. Not favor your individual needs over your long-term friend and partners.

If you never stopped making it clear you were interested in open marriage, why did you tune her out last year when she brought up polyamory?

Mostly because she would do so often, and I would think that what I'd invested in was about to pay off, and that my actions helped her find that security in our relationship, only to find out out that was not the case, and have to lower my expectations. So I had no reason to think this instance was any different.

In the past you over-did things in putting her first. To make it "fair," do you want her to overdo things now too? When do things get to be "normal" here, rather than taking turns overdoing it?

That's true. I did too much. But it's not fairness I want. I can accept I will not get that. I want a sense of balance. So far, our journey into polyamory has worked entirely as she's needed it to. Now, when I find myself needing support, as she did then, it's not available to me. All I want is to feel considered.

You have a long history of bungling along due to youth, lack of education, lack of resources. What are the excuses/reasons now for bungling along and not dealing with the communication issues?

That is one of my core points. We messed up before. She's going forward confidently and I'm glad to see her shine like this, but she's doing all the same things we did wrong then: not communicating, presuming how I feel, giving part of the information so that consent is not given with full clarity. And when I bring up what we need to do with us first, beforehand, she takes it as an offense.

Are you trying to punish her for past things? If you hold resentments from the past, you could let them go, or just end things with her so they no longer apply.

I do not want to punish her. I feel like that's what she's doing to me, though. I just want to feel secure in my relationship with her, as she needed to. And I want to feel respected for what I did in our ignorant youth, even if it was the wrong way to go about it, cos I was working with everything I had at my disposal. She has much more to work with now, and still isn't. It feels like everything I did meant nothing to her, or she just doesn't care.

Is that part of the childhood trauma, abandonment stuff? There is such thing as clinging to each other too much.

Yes, definitely childhood traumas are playing out here. We're actually able to be an exceptional support and team, but with these feelings of imbalance here, and not being able to understand the past, I find it hard to progress forward as she wants. I cannot pretend the past did not happen, like she seems to be able to do. I'm shaped by my past, while she seems focused on shaping herself with her future.

Some of this, (or much) is kind of, "What about me?" But that's not intrinsically a negative. My feelings are valid in this matter. I'm willing to be incorrect on much of it, but my feelings and the actions taken that have hurt me are real. I'm allowed to want to feel secure in my base and home. And it's reasonable to expect someone who loves you to want to help. Not take it on, I don't think it's hers to fix, but we have always been a team. This isn't how teamwork works.

 

[GalaGirl]

Thank you for more info. I hope airing out helps you some. It doesn't really change my suggestions. You have a LOT going on and I think it is best to talk with a counselor.

Absolutely, in that it is something I enjoy. It's not actually something I instigated, just something I tried. Now, in this instance it feels like running my face in it. You weren't good enough in exactly the same circumstances previously for me to want to engage in this, not one night without you and two random people and it's on. It feels... painful and selfish.

I didn't push group sex, either. I probably expressed that incorrectly. I've also never taken a 'no' as anything but a no. She did not have to get drunk to have group sex. She would get drunk, make a move on someone and start group sex. I joined in because I was not really in a position to not without making a scene, and because I found it pleasant, but I never had any awareness of was happening until it did. What I encouraged, was a way of us finding that experience without her getting blind drunk. I was trying to ascertain, when we went out, if that was on the table or not, because it was hard to be in the position of not knowing if we are going to see so and do because you plan on drinking and having sex, or if we're just hanging out. It turns out she doesn't know until she's that drunk. I felt like I couldn't settle into the night-- so uncertain.

This whole thing is... weird. Do not engage in group sex with her anymore, at least not until you talk all that out with a counselor. Drunk people cannot consent. You have enough going on here without piling on group sex issues at this time.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. I don't think I lied, but again I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Forgive me. It was a really long post. I meant this part.

My wife was insecure about the relationship, and I wanted her to feel secure. Besides lying to her and saying, “I will be monogamous” I did what she asked.

Were you lying about being monogamous? Why?

That's true, I did too much. But it's not fairness I want. I can accept I will not get that. I want a sense of balance. So far, our journey into polyamory has worked entirely as she's needed it to. Now, when I find myself needing support that she did then, it's not available to me. All I want is to feel considered. But I do not.

What do you need to feel considered? Are you able to articulate it? Is she caught up in in NRE and doing poly hell things?

kathylabriola.com - ARE YOU IN POLY HELL?

COMMON PITFALLS IN OPEN RELATIONSHIPS Many people who are in a primary relationship stumble into an outside relationship either by choice or by chance, and once involved, things can go beautifully or can go terribly awry. Here are some of the most common problems that develop and some ideas for

www.kathylabriola.com

That is one of my core points. We messed up before, she's going forward confidently and I'm glad to see her shine like this, but she's doing all the same things we did wrong then. Not communicating, presuming how I feel, giving part of the information so that consent is not given with full clarity. And when I bring up that we need to do with on us first beforehand, she takes it like an offense.

Is it HOW you say it? Like you say: "We need to do this" and she gets defensive, like, "Who made you boss of all?" Are you both defensive listeners? I noted there were communication issues. Could they be playing into this?

I do not want to punish her. I feel like that's what she's doing to me though. I just want to feel secure in my relationship with her as she needed to. And I want to feel respected for what I did in our ignorant youth even if it was the wrong way to go about it, cos I was working with everything I had at my disposal. She had much more to work with now, and still isn't. It feels like everything I did meant nothing to her, or she just doesn't care.

I think this is something for a counselor But I will rewrite it without things from the past in it. Maybe it helps you to see it that way:

• I want to feel secure in my relationship with you. Things that help me feel secure are:
  
  • I want to feel respected/ respectful behaviors like ___ done towards me.
  • I want you to work with me / cooperation/ collaboration / working as a team.
  • I want to know you care about my well being by doing __ and not doing ___.

That might help you talk to her better. If you bring up past stuff and her ears shut down like, "Oh, no, not this again" it's not helping you with present-day stuff. Maybe focus on present day stuff for now, and leave the past stuff to process with a counselor. It is A LOT.

I cannot pretend the past did not happen, like she seems to be able to do.

Maybe she's not pretending it did not happen, she's just moved on from it more than you.

ADHD can happen alongside other conditions. Maybe some of that is playing into this, along with the communication problems.

I'm shaped by my pay while she sends focused on shaping herself with her future.

Did you mean "pay"? Maybe this was a typo for "day."

Are you worried you don't have a place in her future? Maybe you two want to talk out, "What about me?"

Some of this, (or much) is kind of, "What about me?" but that's not intrinsically a negative. My feelings are valid in this matter.

Yes, they are valid. But if the core concern is that part in bold, how about talking about it more directly? What place do you hold in her future? Does she still want to be together? In what way?

IS that the core concern? That's the vibe I was getting. (I could be wrong.)

If it is not that you are worried about what place you have in her future, could you articulate what your core concern is, or the top 3 concerns? It's okay if you can't right now. But if you could list top 3 that might help you at the counselor intake.

I'm guessing...

• While I'm glad wife has been doing therapy and working on herself, I don't know what place I hold in her future.
• Wife wants to jump into doing polyamory without making shared agreements first or _____ needed steps first.
• I think I'm being punished for past behaviors.

Would those be it?

 

[kdt26417]

Hello astrosneddy,

What are these great holes you speak of in your relationship with your wife? What are these things you don't understand, that you want to understand?

To an extent, it sounds like your wife is gaslighting you. She is making you question your own sanity, she is making you doubt your own perceptions and recollections. Also she is not accepting your consent, she is trying to pretend that you do not consent. Again, gaslighting. Guilt-tripping. Also she is subjecting you to a double standard. Things were one way when she told you to stop the ENM/poly, now she has privileges that she didn't allow you to have. Double standard. One standard for you, another standard for her. I don't blame you for feeling crappy about all of that.

Are You in Poly Hell?
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[astrosneddy]

Hello astrosneddy,

What are these great holes you speak of in your relationship with your wife? What are these things you don't understand, that you want to understand?

To an extent, it sounds like your wife is gaslighting you. She is making you question your own sanity, she is making you doubt your own perceptions and recollections. Also she is not accepting your consent, she is trying to pretend that you do not consent. Again, gaslighting. Guilt-tripping. Also she is subjecting you to a double standard. Things were one way when she told you to stop the ENM/poly, now she has privileges that she didn't allow you to have. Double standard. One standard for you, another standard for her. I don't blame you for feeling crappy about all of that.

Are You in Poly Hell?
Sincerely,
Kevin T.

I really appreciate that, Kevin. I do feel like that, but I also have real issues trusting myself and my feelings. I have ADHD, so maybe my recollections are incorrect. But she is still doing those things. I do feel gaslit, but I do not believe she would do so intentionally.

It is the double standards and unbalanced privileges I am having issues with. I obviously can't express it correctly. I'm not sure how it's fixed. I don't want her to go through what I did. But at the same time it seems unfair. And while I know life isn't fair, it feels insincere and insulting to be expected to just move past these things without them being addressed, or at least respected, in the way we move forward now.

I will look at this poly hell thing. I think it might be useful.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi astrosneddy,

I think maybe what you are looking for in your wife, is simple acknowledgment that she has it easier than you did. Maybe some thanks for making things easier for her, maybe a simple apology for making things harder for you. That and you would like her to work with you, as a team, not just tell you how it's gonna be, or do it her way without consulting you. Am I on the right track?

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

 

[astrosneddy]

Hi astrosneddy,

I think maybe what you are looking for in your wife, is simple acknowledgment that she has it easier than you did. Maybe some thanks for making things easier for her, maybe a simple apology for making things harder for you. That and you would like her to work with you, as a team, not just tell you how it's gonna be, or do it her way without consulting you. Am I on the right track?

Sincerely,
Kevin T.

Very much so. In fact, the more resistance I've felt to anything like that just compounded what was a little issue into something that's got me spiraling.

 

[astrosneddy]

Thank you for more info. I hope airing out helps you some.

Doesn't really change my suggestion though. You have a LOT going on and I think it is best to talk with a counselor.



This whole thing is... weird. So do not engage in group sex with her any more. At least not til you talk all that out with a counselor. Drunk people cannot consent. And you have enough going on here without piling on group sex issues at this time.



Forgive me. It was just a really long post. I meant this part.



Were you lying about being monogamous? Why?




What do you need to feel considered? Are you able to articulate it? Is she caught in in NRE? Doing poly hell things?

kathylabriola.com - ARE YOU IN POLY HELL?

COMMON PITFALLS IN OPEN RELATIONSHIPS Many people who are in a primary relationship stumble into an outside relationship either by choice or by chance, and once involved, things can go beautifully or can go terribly awry. Here are some of the most common problems that develop and some ideas for

www.kathylabriola.com

Is it HOW you say it? Like you say "We need to do this" and she's defensive like "who made you boss of all?"

Are you both defensive listeners?

I noted there were communication issues. Could that be playing into this?



I think this is something for counselor. But I will rewrite it without things from the past in it. Maybe it helps you to see it that way:



I don't know if that helps you talk to her better. Because if you bring up past stuff and her ears shut down like "Oh, no, Not this again" it's not helping you with present day stuff.

Maybe focus on present day stuff for now? And leave past stuff to process with counselor? Cuz it is A LOT of stuff.



Maybe she's not pretending it did not happen. She's just moved on from it more than you?

ADHD can happen along side other conditions. So maybe some of that is playing into this? And the communication problems?



Did you mean "pay" or maybe typo "day?"

Are you worried you don't have a place in her future? The "what about me?" Maybe you two want to talk that out.



Yes, it is valid. But if the core concern is that part in bold... how about talking about it more direct? What place do you hold in her future? Does she still want to be together? In what way?

IS that the core concern? That's the vibe I was getting. I could be wrong.

If it is not that you are worried about what place you have in her future... can you articulate what your core concern is? Or top 3? It's ok if you can't right now. But if you could list top 3 that might help you at counselor intake.

I'm guessing...

• While I'm glad wife has been doing therapy and working on herself... I don't know what place I hold in her future.
• Wife wants to jump into doing polyamory without making shared agreements first or _____ needed steps first.
• I think I'm being punished for past behaviors.

Would those be it?

Galagirl

No, I'm not really concerned about my place in her life. We have a child together and we will be in one another's lives forever.

What I want is to understand the past to move forward from it.

I want us to actually actively consent to things, as you are supposed to in polyamory, not have her unilaterally make the decisions for us both based on her needs, without considering mine. I'm pretty sure that's how you expect to be treated in a relationship: fairly, and with compassion and love for one another.

And I do not want to be treated like I'm doing something wrong, simply for wanting to approach things from a place of true communication, mutual understanding and respect. And to not be treated like I'm doing something wrong for having feelings about it, especially since they are essentially the same feelings she had when we first tried it, when her response was to ignore my feelings for her own, as she's doing now, from the other side of the table. That's the double standard she keeps imposing.

Group sex time has been misrepresented in my rant, perhaps. It's really not a big deal. It was more an attempt to illustrate that she's taking actions that feel like rubbing salt in the wound, and acting like I'm being too sensitive about it.

 

[GalaGirl]

Thank you for more info.

This sounds more clear about how you want to be together NOW in the present day.

• I want us to actually actively consent to things.
• I do not want her unilaterally make the decisions for us both based on her needs, without considering mine.
• I do not want to be treated like I'm doing something wrong, simply for wanting to approach things from a place of true communication, mutual understanding and respect.
• I do not want to not be treated like I'm doing something wrong for having feelings about it (<-- might clear up what "it" is so it can stand alone in a sentence.)
• I do not want double standards.

All of those are reasonable. You could take that list to a counselor so you get some help with talking to her about these points. It doesn't sound like it "goes in" when you try to communicate with her on your own.

Did anything resonate from the poly hell article? I could be wrong, but your wife sounds caught up in chasing the New Shiny People, taking the established relationship with you for granted.

Anita Wagner wrote a lot of articles. I think you might be hitting some of the pitfalls if your wife just wants to jump in blind.

Galagirl

 

[astrosneddy]

Thank you for more info.

This sounds more clear about how you want to be together NOW in the present day.

• I want us to actually actively consent to things.
• I do not want her unilaterally make the decisions for us both based on her needs, without considering mine.
• I do not want to be treated like I'm doing something wrong, simply for wanting to approach things from a place of true communication, mutual understanding and respect.
• I do not want to not be treated like I'm doing something wrong for having feelings about it (<-- might clear up what "it" is so it can stand alone in a sentence.)
• I do not want double standards.

All of those are reasonable.

Could take that list to a counselor so you get some help talking to spouse about these points. Doesn't sound like it "goes in" when you try to communicate with her on your own.

Did anything resonate from the poly hell article? I could be wrong, but your wife sounds caught up in chasing the New Shiny People. And then taking the established relationship with you for granted.

Anita Wagner wrote a lot of articles and I think you might also be hitting some of the pitfalls if wife just wants to jump in blind.

Galagirl

Hello again,

Thank you for your insight. I apologize for my reactivity to some of your language. I'm aware that I'm rather sensitive about this and also that I'm suffering largely from trauma responses that I did not know were going to raise their head in any of this.

I've felt that my feelings have been dismissed and that any attempt to discuss this has resulted in the onus being entirely on me. It's as if I've been told that it's my fault and responsibility that I'm not more psychologically sound and capable of dealing with this. I know I'm not. I'm actually right at the start of the journey of healing.

That's maybe why I'm trying to find a comfortable, consensual and mostly respectful way through this with her. But it's so difficult when you feel like you're being directed to ignore or pretend that feelings, emotions and insecurities are not there. And not only that they are not there, not they aren't with the other person's time or care. It really just flies in the face of the pre-existing history where you've been a mutually supportive team and now your teammate isn't wanting or willing to be that teammate.

I do sincerely appreciate your advice. I'm honestly of the belief that we can move through this, because I honestly believe in polyamory and the genuine benefits of human connection and experience it provides.

 

[GalaGirl]

Thank you for your insight and I apologize for my reactivity to some of your language. I'm aware that I'm rather sensitive about this and also that I'm suffering largely from trauma responses that I did not know were going to raise their head in any of this.

I know you are going through some stuff. The internet does not convey body language or voice tone. I haven't taken anything you've posted personally. I do appreciate the apology. We're good.

Gently-- YOU know what you mean and what you are talking about. You have been living this.

Readers like me, who haven't been there and are just tuning in, because it's very long and complex, are gonna do their best, and possibly get some things wrong or guess wrong.

It's maybe why I'm trying to find a comfortable, consensual and mostly respectful way through this with her. But it's so difficult when you feel like you're being directed to ignore or pretend that feelings, emotions and insecurities are not there. Not only that they are not there, not they aren't with the other person's time or care. It really just flies in the face of the pre-existing history where you've been a mutually supportive team and now your team mate isn't wanting it willing to be that team mate.

In order to help make your posts easier to follow, would you consider giving your wife a nickname? For ease of writing in my post I'll use the generic name "Apple." But if you want something else, I am happy to go with what you pick, moving forward.

I also notice you flip-flop from calling yourself "I" and calling yourself "you," like you want to talk about it somewhere anonymously and get some help, maybe be seen somewhere. I wonder if you are trying to hold it away, at "arm's distance." I can understand doing that, especially if it is painful. But on this side, using both "I" and "you" to talk about yourself makes for hard reading and slows down comprehension, if you want your readers to try to understand what is happening and respond.

I could be wrong, but that paragraph sounds something like...

It's maybe why I'm trying to find a comfortable, consensual, and mostly respectful way through this with Apple. But it's so difficult when Apple tells me to ignore or pretend my feelings, emotions and insecurities are not there, or says they are not worth her time or care. It really just flies in the face of our pre-existing history, where we've been a mutually supportive team in the past. Apple does not want to be my teammate any more.

If that's what you mean, then yeah, it stinks. I could understand you feeling awful and emotionally abandoned, maybe not entirely trusting her or feeling safe with her anymore either, because she refuses to "see" you and your hurt. Is that where you are at?

If you prefer no responses and just want space to think and work things out like a journal, you might start a thread in that area.

Life stories and blogs

Share your stories and blog about your current life situations, inspiring others

polyamory.com

HTH,
Galagirl

 

[astrosneddy]

I know you are going through some stuff. And internet does not convey body language or voice tone. I haven't taken anything you've posted personally. I do appreciate the apology. We're good.

Gently-- YOU know what you mean and what you are talking about. You have been living this.

Readers like me who haven't been there and are just tuning in, because it's very long and complex, are gonna do their best, and possibly get some things wrong or guess wrong.

Would consider giving wife a fake name? For ease of writing in my post I'll go with generic "Apple," but if you want something else I am happy to go with what you pick, moving forward.

I also notice you flip flop from calling yourself "I" and calling yourself "you." It's like you want to talk about it somewhere anonymously and get some help, maybe be seen somewhere, but are also trying to hold it away at "arm's distance." I can understand doing that, especially if it is painful. But on this side, it makes for hard reading and slows down understanding, if you want your readers to try to understand and respond.

I could be wrong, but it this paragraph sounds something like...

If that's what you mean, then yeah, it stinks. I could understand you feeling awful and emotionally abandoned, maybe not entirely trusting her or feeling safe with her any more either, because she refuses to "see" you and your hurt.

Is that where you are at?

I think that's well put. Apple and I have also been discussing this to almost no avail, leaving us in circular discussion that has been emotionally hard and draining for the both of us, leaving us both feeling unheard (I presume).

I have been feeling symptoms of being gaslit (I do not consider Apple to be purposefully gaslighting) when Apple then presents the exact issues or desires I've been talking about, as if they are her ideas she's just had, for example, doing some groundwork on our relationship and its foundation so we both feel secure. She's also telling me that my view or memory of the past, or even a recent discussion or event, are not the way they happened, or I am remembering wrong.

It's especially difficult, because my ADHD dx supports the possibility those statements are true. But disregarding my experience regardless is hard.

We've definitely lost so much of our ability to communicate as we once could.

I think mostly I'm shocked and hurt by the way, to my view of things, that she finds it so hard, almost like a chore or a duty, to put any effort into us. When in the past, in the same, but role-swapped situation, I was concerned and actively involved with making sure she did feel secure in our relationship. This was to my own detriment, and I would do things differently now. I'm not asking her to do the same things, but it feels really uncomfortable and painful that the idea of securing our own relationship seems to hit her like a chore.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

I don't think Apple has any interest in a healthy relationship with you. You're fighting a losing battle

 

[astrosneddy]

I don't think Apple has any interest in a healthy relationship with you. You're fighting a losing battle

I understand that, and it's kind of the contradictory situation I'm in. Her words are the opposite of that. But her actions speak otherwise. Then she insists that her actions were not intended to be that way. It's a confusing dance.

I know undoubtedly, that if the relationship is over to any extent, in her mind, she's not letting herself know or believe or face it. She's flat out lying to herself that she still wants it to work.

But just as equally, that could be true. We have a child together. Regardless of any change to our structure, we would remain together in a living arrangement. So that might be what makes her not able to see that she wants something else. I don't know. I'm also only just recognising that childhood trauma is making me and my attachment style go into freefall.

It's really validating though, that you and others here seem to be able to see the two sides in this. I think that's what is driving me insane. I think both things are happening. I'm both safe and about to lose my relationship. I'm in the most progressive and healing part of a relationship, and at the bitter end of it, etc.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Regardless of any change to our structure, we would remain together in a living arrangement.

I'm probably going to explain this badly because I'm quoting from a therapist friend.

When you guys have this as your "pivot point," like the thing that must stay the same, you start navigating some really unchartered territory in terms of building healthy relationships.

You see, (again, I'm trying to apply a wider point to your specific circumstance), whether it is nature or nurture, humans tend to need some sort of clear boundary around the categories of their relationships. Even if you are poly, feeling like you're committed to living with an ex for the next decade plus, and you have to navigate all your romantic relationships around that fact, prompts you to try and think laterally to just make it all work. It's pretty unconventional.

More importantly, it's unconventional purely because humans seem to have found they simply cannot have healthy relationships with anyone without these boundaries and the convention of "moving on." Again, that might be nature, or it might be nurture. Either way, it is so, or seems to be, in the vast majority of cases, at least.