Advice for new situation

C

Cougarwolf

Member
For those that have read my other posts, this is almost a continuation.

My wife and I are setting some basic grounds rules/boundaries, schedule, we were told by our current online mentor, who is currently offline and yes we are looking for one who is local.

Anyway, our mentor recommended that my wife’s “FWB” be given the opportunity to voice their opinion. He has been asked as well as what days he is in town the most for consideration on the schedule. He was sent that DM on the site they use and waiting for a response as well as a request to chat on an app that sends notifications. Her idea not mine

My wife is exhausted and went to sleep as soon as she got home from work, but expressed interest if he messages later to talk in person.

Question is, how can I express how important them talking about the rules are to me. I honestly view it as a respect thing concerning our marriage and respect for me. Of course is it even possible I could bring it up without overstepping a boundary concerning their relationship
 
Why does your mentor feel like their opinion is something that requires group discussion?

When you meet someone, you have things that you want and don't want. This is what makes you compatible with someone.

It's you and your wife who need to talk and agree what things you both need to sustain your relationship and then you 2 work that out between you.

What he wants doesn't come into it because you have no obligation to meet the needs of your wife's boyfriend. Not unless she is saying to keep me, you have to find out what this guy needs and make sure he can get it from me without our marriage obstructing it and you decide that's what you want to do. I'd very much advise against dismissing your own needs in that way, though.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
Why does your mentor feel like their opinion is something that requires group discussion?

When you meet someone, you have things that you want and don't want. This is what makes you compatible with someone.

It's you and your wife who need to talk and agree what things you both need to sustain your relationship and then you 2 work that out between you.

What he wants doesn't come into it because you have no obligation to meet the needs of your wife's boyfriend. Not unless she is saying to keep me, you have to find out what this guy needs and make sure he can get it from me without our marriage obstructing it and you decide that's what you want to do. I'd very much advise against dismissing your own needs in that way, though.
Click to expand...
The way it was explained to me was, they are in a relationship and it would be respectful to acknowledge that and give him a chance to voice any concerns over boundaries involving him as well as input to the dating schedule.
 
Cougarwolf said:
The way it was explained to me was, they are in a relationship and it would be respectful to acknowledge that and give him a chance to voice any concerns over boundaries involving him as well as input to the dating schedule.
Click to expand...

I think it's up to him to voice those concerns with his partner if she presents boundaries that don't work for him. That's what usually happens.

Say a woman meets a guy and she says "I never want to live with a partner", the guy might say "what about with separate bedrooms/living spaces". Or he might say "that works for me". Or he might say "that doesn't work for me".

He can ask why, and she might say "I'm agreed to live with my mother only and I'm not really thinking past her not being around". Then that's that. He doesn't then go to her mother and discuss the fact that this agreement is obstructive. He just has to accept it or walk away.

Why should it be different in polyamory?

The same goes for the dating schedule. If your wife is happy with what availability her existing commitments give her, then she needs to present that to him as what is on offer. If she feels like her existing commitments prevent her from doing things (or people) that she'd rather be doing, then she needs to address that problem herself.

What she can't do is feel "trapped" in her marriage thus unable to meet her "true needs", and then try and get two men with whom she is in separate relationships to resolve this for her.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
I think it's up to him to voice those concerns with his partner if she presents boundaries that don't work for him. That's what usually happens.

Say a woman meets a guy and she says "I never want to live with a partner", the guy might say "what about with separate bedrooms/living spaces". Or he might say "that works for me". Or he might say "that doesn't work for me".

He can ask why, and she might say "I'm agreed to live with my mother only and I'm not really thinking past her not being around". Then that's that. He doesn't then go to her mother and discuss the fact that this agreement is obstructive. He just has to accept it or walk away.

Why should it be different in polyamory?

The same goes for the dating schedule. If your wife is happy with what availability her existing commitments give her, then she needs to present that to him as what is on offer. If she feels like her existing commitments prevent her from doing things (or people) that she'd rather be doing, then she needs to address that problem herself.

What she can't do is feel "trapped" in her marriage thus unable to meet her "true needs", and then try and get two men with whom she is in separate relationships to resolve this for her.
Click to expand...
Most of the boundaries discussed have been like:
How much do we want to know about the other's relationships?
How often do we test?
Always use protection.
Create a schedule saying she dates these days, I date these days, we date each other these days, and these days are family days.
Give him the opportunity to give input on what days would work for him.
Give him the opportunity to discuss these boundaries with her, and any others he might want to discuss, concerning their relationship.
 
Cougarwolf said:
Most of the boundaries discussed have been like How much of the others relationship do we want to know? How often for testing, always protection. Creating a schedule sayin she dates these days, I date these day, we date each other these days, and these days are family days. Giving him the opportunity to give input on what days would work for him. And an opportunity to discuss the boundaries and any others he might want to discuss with her concerning their relationship.
Click to expand...

So, what if the days you have based on the existing foundation of your family life clash with the days that work for him?

It's unfortunate for him, but I don't think you should build your poly structure around the availability and needs of any other individual (including him).

The boundaries he wants to discuss with her about their relationship should be between her and him. It's her place to say "I can't give you that," "I have space for that," or "I want to give you that, so I need to make space for that."

If her answer is the last one, that's when she comes back to you and says that her needs have changed and you two have a discussion. The back and forth is on her, not on you guys.

She needs to be the one to say, "Little Timmy can't do SportsBall because you work on Wednesdays and that's bf's only free day." She needs to feel the weight of having to prioritise several commitments, because that's the reality being a working poly married mother. (I'm assuming she's a working mother, on top of the other things. But the point stands, regardless.)
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
So what if the days you have based on the existing foundation of your family life clash with the days that work for him?

It's unfortunate for him, but I don't think you should build your poly structure around the availability and needs of any other individual (including him).

The boundaries he wants to discuss with her about their relationship should be between her and him. It's her place to say "I can't give you that", "I have space for that", or "I want to give you that so need to make space for that".

If her answer is the last one, that's when she comes back to you and says that her needs have changed and you two have a discussion. The back and forth is on her. Not you guys.

She needs to be the one to say "well little Timmy can't do SportsBall because you work on Wednesdays and that's bf's only free day". She needs to feel the weight of having to prioritise several commitments because that's the reality being a working poly married mother. I'm assuming here she's a working mother on top of other things. But the point stands, regardless.
Click to expand...
Agreed. If he cannot abide by the schedule that he is open to help with, then wife has already said it would be over. All the boundaries they set are theirs to discuss, just like the rules and boundaries my wife and I set up for ourselves were discussed and agreed upon by us.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
So what if the days you have based on the existing foundation of your family life clash with the days that work for him?

It's unfortunate for him, but I don't think you should build your poly structure around the availability and needs of any other individual (including him).

The boundaries he wants to discuss with her about their relationship should be between her and him. It's her place to say "I can't give you that", "I have space for that", or "I want to give you that so need to make space for that".

If her answer is the last one, that's when she comes back to you and says that her needs have changed and you two have a discussion. The back and forth is on her. Not you guys.

She needs to be the one to say "well little Timmy can't do SportsBall because you work on Wednesdays and that's bf's only free day". She needs to feel the weight of having to prioritise several commitments because that's the reality being a working poly married mother. I'm assuming here she's a working mother on top of other things. But the point stands, regardless.
Click to expand...
Yes, we have a special needs son.
 
Cougarwolf said:
Most of the boundaries discussed have been like How much of the others relationship do we want to know? How often for testing, always protection. Creating a schedule sayin she dates these days, I date these day, we date each other these days, and these days are family days. Giving him the opportunity to give input on what days would work for him. And an opportunity to discuss the boundaries and any others he might want to discuss with her concerning their relationship.
Click to expand...
I think tht is fair, especially if you are flexible in setting your schedule. If Tuesday and Thursday work for him and you can work the rest around that, then its definitely worth the conversation. That’s how I set things up with my partners. I have one with a very rigid schedule. Thankfully, the rest can work around that.

I think the point Seasoned was making was: don’t go out of your way and cancel important stuff to accommodate him. If it works, great. If not, then it won’t work.
 
I agree that he should be included in the discussions that directly impact him. Otherwise there's the issue of treating him like someone to fit into a box into your lives rather than an autonomous human being with a full life of their own and a romantic partner with the right to have input into how to manage the polycule agreements. Well done you for stepping beyond couple agreements. Your wife, as the hinge, can be the one to liaise--you don't have to be a part of that conversation directly, but it's going that if you are working out a 2-2-2-1 weekly routine that he gets to express what two days would be best for him. That's common sense in my world.

It also sounds like your mentor is well versed in the Secondary Bill of Rights article.

The way it was explained to me was, they are in a relationship and it would be respectful to acknowledge that and give him a chance to voice any concerns over boundaries involving him as well as input to the dating schedule.
Click to expand...
I see this as healthy.

As for your question, you could say, "wife, it is very important to me that he knows our rules, a, b, c." And then you trust her to be honest that she's communicated these things to him. If she claims you're violating a boundary by making this statement, polyamory isn't actually your problem.
 
Let's not forget that we're talking about a guy who won't give out his phone number and messages on an *app* at odd hours expecting the wife to meet him at rest stops so they can fuck in his truck because he has a "roommate". He's quite obviously married and cheating and you guys are worried about flexible schedules, couple privilege, secondary bills of rights, and forcing this guy to fit in a box.

The wife is the one forcing herself to fit into a box for *him* (literally). This guy must have a cock of gold.
 
Last edited:
ref2018 said:
Let's not forget that we're talking about a guy who won't give out his phone number and messages on an *app* at odd hours expecting the wife to meet him at rest stops so they can fuck in his truck because he has a "roommate". He's quite obviously married and cheating and you guys are worried about flexible schedules, couple privilege, secondary bills of rights, and forcing this guy to fit in a box.

The wife is the one forcing herself to fit into a box for *him* (literally). This guy must have a cock of gold.
Click to expand...
I have discussed this with her, and she is happy with what they have, and is trusting him. I will admit to personal issues with that, but she is happy. So I let it be. On the plus side, he was confused about it when approached, but respectful of what we as a married couple are tryin to do. Don’t think I can really ask for more than that, and must respect what my wife wants and what makes her happy.
 
Evie said:
Otherwise there's the issue of treating him like someone to fit into a box into your lives rather than an autonomous human being with a full life of their own and a romantic partner with the right to have input into how to manage the polycule agreements.
Click to expand...

I used to agree to it but nowadays, I see people interpret this as "the secondary has a right to the prospects they want or it's unethical". I see flaky spouses interpret it as "I must give my new partner what they want or we are being (like) unicorn hunters".

I think whether poly or mono, we all come with limitations that are non-negotiable, and it's better in the long run to acknowledge those and present them for what they are.

It sounds like this must be a big deal in my relationships, but it really isn't, because I seem to really have a polycule who genuinely want what we have and not much else. So we don't have to police each other presenting this, we sort of all found over time that we matched up with what we want and when we want it.

So I guess I'm saying I see it as a cautionary sign if someone has trouble presenting what they say they want to other people. I know from my own experience and that of my partners and metamours that when you truly want a particular relationship structure, you have no problems telling new people what is and what isn't on offer.

I think all dating includes some degree of finding people who fit in a box. Doesn't want kids. Age appropriate. Common interests. Physically attractive. Sexually compatible. It's definitely worth while working out what you want from your partners and what you cN give. Preferably before you have any (more).
 
I see three possible problems.

I could be wrong in my impressions.

PROBLEM 1

Who is this mentor? Have you asked them if they have different suggestions for full poly partners vs FWB?

Even though both use the same kind of board, how you play checkers is different than how you play chess, right? Expectations are different.

Even though wife is seeing you both?
  • On this side you have a special needs son and a marriage.
  • On that side it's basically a FWB/booty call relationship.

Explain to me why both sides would be treated the same at this juncture? Basic polite, sure. Could be polite to all people. But the SAME?

PROBLEM 2

You are using these interchangeably:
  • Rules
  • Boundaries
I think what you mean is "shared agreements" with your wife.

Your "personal boundaries" define what you will and will not put up with. What you will and will not do. Your wife doesn't have to like or obey them. YOU do.

"Rules" are restrictions you put on another person. I don't think that's what you are after here. I think you want "shared agreements" with your wife.

My wife and I are setting some basic grounds rules/boundaries, schedule...
Click to expand...

Super basic shared agreements?
  • We both agree to use condoms and other safer sex practices with each other and other people. We both agree to get regular labs every X months. We both agree to ask/tell "Since the last time we shared sex, has there been anyone new or changes in risk profile? On my side there was..."
  • We both agree we each get 2 days off a week from parenting. We can spent the time with dates, friends, family, on our own, etc. Even if at home? We are NOT the "parent on call." We check in every quarter/semester to mix the days up. This time period, my days are ___. Your days are _____.
  • We agree we have our regular days as a family and as a couple. Family date is on ___ this semester. Couple dates are on ____ this semester.
  • We agree we have our own personal banking apart from the joint acct that deal with kid/house bills. Our dates come out of personal. They do not come out of joint.

PROBLEM 3

I think you could go separate, parallel poly and expect wife to deal with her other relationships herself. If she makes a mess over there, it's her thing to clean up.

Right now? I could be wrong in my impression. But it's like you are bending over backwards to "include" Dude in your (you + wife) marriage agreements so WIFE will stop behaving all kid in a candy store wackadoo. Like "See how nice I am, including your FWB? So NOW will you stop behaving like a wackadoo and taking me for granted?"

Kitchen Table Poly (KTP) is not always wanted and it is NOT the place to start out at. And even then... KTP is made up of dyads. You still would have the (you + wife) dyad to deal with. You + wife are responsible for that dyad. Not other people.

If she's behaving like a wackadoo at you, not respectful, standing you up, ditching the chores and childcare on you.... that is HER behavior SHE is doing, right? So deal with your wife and ask for changes in behavior.

You might be used to doing marriage "as a team" and that's fine. But Dude is not IN this marriage. You know that right?

There can be "working toward co-primary" over time if everyone wants that. But she just started dating him! He doesn't get keys to the house or get access to your bank accounts or get to be in the wills or coparent the kid just like that, right?

It's ok for you to have some personal boundaries with your wife and with Dude.

Anyway, our mentor recommended that my wife’s “FWB” be given the opportunity to voice their opinion.
Click to expand...

And FWB can voice it to WIFE when they coordinate their calendar over THERE in the (Wife + FWB) side of the poly V.

You are not in relationship with FWB. You are not married to FWB. You don't have to deal with FWB at all.

Wife can deal with her own calendar coordinating with FWB. Just as wife can coordinate her calendar with you.


Question is, how can I express how important them talking about the rules are to me.
Click to expand...

Why is that important to you?

If you make shared agreements with your wife, isn't it on wife to hold up her shared agreements with you? If FWB asks her to do something, isn't it on wife to say "No, thanks. I won't be doing that. I have shared agreements I want to keep with my other partner."

Aren't (you + wife shared agreements) created over HERE on this side of the V?

Can't FWB create (FWB + Wife shared agreements) on that side of the V over THERE?

If she's agreeing to everything under the sun with everyone she meets and she ends up spreading herself too thin... isn't that her lesson to learn? To NOT do that?

I honestly view it as a respect thing concerning our marriage and respect for me.
Click to expand...

And who are you married to? Wife.
  • So how is she respecting/not respecting this marriage?
  • How is she respecting/not respecting you?
Why does FWB have to respect the marriage? Is he in it? Why does FWB have to respect you? Or you him? You are strangers to each other. Isn't "basic polite" good enough right now? Like if you happen to run into each other in town you nod and say "good morning" and that's it? Like you would do "basic polite" to the mailman?

Of course is it even possible I could bring it up without overstepping a boundary concerning their relationship
Click to expand...

I think (FWB + Wife) is their thing to deal with on their time. I don't know what shared agreements they have together apart from safer sex practices, but if you accidentally overstep on any, isn't it on wife or FWB to inform you? Then you apologize and don't do it again?

It is like you are worrying for EVERYONE here. How about you pull back some?

The way it was explained to me was, they are in a relationship and it would be respectful to acknowledge that and give him a chance to voice any concerns over boundaries involving him as well as input to the dating schedule.
Click to expand...

Wife and FWB could have that talk on their own time. It's not your thing to deal in.

If I was dating you, I would ask YOU. Not your wife, but YOU.

"Do you have any shared agreements with Wife or other partners that could affect me? In what way? On my side my spouse and I agree to use condoms and get regular labs."

If you wanted to share bare sex, I would tell you "No, thanks. I won't be doing that" because I have to hold up my shared agreements. *I* am responsible for that, not you.

You don't really know your wife as a hinge. So far she's getting carried away with NRE. So I could understand you feeling anxious about a lot of things. I understand wanting some shared agreements so SOME of the anxiety can be reduced. But you don't have to do your work AND her work AND FWB's work. Could let each adult deal with their own stuff.

Galagirl
 
Last edited:
Married and cheating isn't the only possibility here. Sure, hoofbeats are probably horses, but there are also a lot of other possibilities, too.

I am secondary to Puck and he is secondary to me. We do not have a "like it or lump it" policy for when we talk with each other. We have carved our time in both of our weeks when we expect that our calls to each are most convenient, and particularly ones are expected to be uninterrupted.

Sure, call it a box if you like, but we're designing to together, to meet both of our needs as middle hinges.
 
Evie said:
Married and cheating isn't the only possibility here. Sure, hoofbeats are probably horses, but there are also a lot of other possibilities, too.

I am secondary to Puck and he is secondary to me. We do not have a "like it or lump it" policy for when we talk with each other. We have carved our time in both of our weeks when we expect that our calls to each are most convenient, and particularly ones are expected to be uninterrupted.

Sure, call it a box if you like, but we're designing to together, to meet both of our needs as middle hinges.
Click to expand...
Do you have to meet him at rest stops to fuck in his truck because he has "roommates"? Do you have his phone number, or will he only message you through apps without turning on the notifications?
 
GalaGirl said:
I see three possible problems.

I could be wrong in my impressions.

PROBLEM 1

Who is this mentor? Have you asked them if they have different suggestions for full poly partners vs FWB?

Even though both use the same kind of board, how you play checkers is different than how you play chess, right? Expectations are different.

Even though wife is seeing you both?
  • On this side you have a special needs son and a marriage.
  • On that side it's basically a FWB/booty call relationship.

Explain to me why both sides would be treated the same at this juncture? Basic polite, sure. Could be polite to all people. But the SAME?

PROBLEM 2

You are using these interchangeably:
  • Rules
  • Boundaries
I think what you mean is "shared agreements" with your wife.

Your "personal boundaries" define what you will and will not put up with. What you will and will not do. Your wife doesn't have to like or obey them. YOU do.

"Rules" are restrictions you put on another person. I don't think that's what you are after here. I think you want "shared agreements" with your wife.



Super basic shared agreements?
  • We both agree to use condoms and other safer sex practices with each other and other people. We both agree to get regular labs every X months. We both agree to ask/tell "Since the last time we shared sex, has there been anyone new or changes in risk profile? On my side there was..."
  • We both agree we each get 2 days off a week from parenting. We can spent the time with dates, friends, family, on our own, etc. Even if at home? We are NOT the "parent on call." We check in every quarter/semester to mix the days up. This time period, my days are ___. Your days are _____.
  • We agree we have our regular days as a family and as a couple. Family date is on ___ this semester. Couple dates are on ____ this semester.
  • We agree we have our own personal banking apart from the joint acct that deal with kid/house bills. Our dates come out of personal. They do not come out of joint.

PROBLEM 3

I think you could go separate, parallel poly and expect wife to deal with her other relationships herself. If she makes a mess over there, it's her thing to clean up.

Right now? I could be wrong in my impression. But it's like you are bending over backwards to "include" Dude in your (you + wife) marriage agreements so WIFE will stop behaving all kid in a candy store wackadoo. Like "See how nice I am, including your FWB? So NOW will you stop behaving like a wackadoo and taking me for granted?"

Kitchen Table Poly (KTP) is not always wanted and it is NOT the place to start out at. And even then... KTP is made up of dyads. You still would have the (you + wife) dyad to deal with. You + wife are responsible for that dyad. Not other people.

If she's behaving like a wackadoo at you, not respectful, standing you up, ditching the chores and childcare on you.... that is HER behavior SHE is doing, right? So deal with your wife and ask for changes in behavior.

You might be used to doing marriage "as a team" and that's fine. But Dude is not IN this marriage. You know that right?

There can be "working toward co-primary" over time if everyone wants that. But she just started dating him! He doesn't get keys to the house or get access to your bank accounts or get to be in the wills or coparent the kid just like that, right?

It's ok for you to have some personal boundaries with your wife and with Dude.



And FWB can voice it to WIFE when they coordinate their calendar over THERE in the (Wife + FWB) side of the poly V.

You are not in relationship with FWB. You are not married to FWB. You don't have to deal with FWB at all.

Wife can deal with her own calendar coordinating with FWB. Just as wife can coordinate her calendar with you.




Why is that important to you?

If you make shared agreements with your wife, isn't it on wife to hold up her shared agreements with you? If FWB asks her to do something, isn't it on wife to say "No, thanks. I won't be doing that. I have shared agreements I want to keep with my other partner."

Aren't (you + wife shared agreements) created over HERE on this side of the V?

Can't FWB create (FWB + Wife shared agreements) on that side of the V over THERE?

If she's agreeing to everything under the sun with everyone she meets and she ends up spreading herself too thin... isn't that her lesson to learn? To NOT do that?



And who are you married to? Wife.
  • So how is she respecting/not respecting this marriage?
  • How is she respecting/not respecting you?
Why does FWB have to respect the marriage? Is he in it? Why does FWB have to respect you? Or you him? You are strangers to each other. Isn't "basic polite" good enough right now? Like if you happen to run into each other in town you nod and say "good morning" and that's it? Like you would do "basic polite" to the mailman?



I think (FWB + Wife) is their thing to deal with on their time. I don't know what shared agreements they have together apart from safer sex practices, but if you accidentally overstep on any, isn't it on wife or FWB to inform you? Then you apologize and don't do it again?

It is like you are worrying for EVERYONE here. How about you pull back some?



Wife and FWB could have that talk on their own time. It's not your thing to deal in.

If I was dating you, I would ask YOU. Not your wife, but YOU.

"Do you have any shared agreements with Wife or other partners that could affect me? In what way? On my side my spouse and I agree to use condoms and get regular labs."

If you wanted to share bare sex, I would tell you "No, thanks. I won't be doing that" because I have to hold up my shared agreements. *I* am responsible for that, not you.

You don't really know your wife as a hinge. So far she's getting carried away with NRE. So I could understand you feeling anxious about a lot of things. I understand wanting some shared agreements so SOME of the anxiety can be reduced. But you don't have to do your work AND her work AND FWB's work. Could let each adult deal with their own stuff.

Galagirl
Click to expand...
The way we did it was me and the wife set our boundaries with our relationship, like how involved with the other paramours or something similar, and let them set what boundaries they want for their relationship. The schedule is just to help plan things and make sure we spend time with each other so we don’t feel the other is pushing us to the side type of thing. With the ability to discuss and change things as situations change, like any paramour has a job change that makes current schedule not work, then discuss and change as needed, but not a constant change because, they want to meet up and it’s supposed to be a family day out our date time kinda thing.
 
SEASONEDpolyAgain said:
If you think back to a time where you and your husband first opened your relationship (assuming you did things that way), were there things that were essentially presented as non-negotiables to new partners?
Click to expand...
Well, I was already active here so I had some forewarning about not making rules for other people. There are things that Adam and I are on the same page about that we both wouldn't look for in a respective partner, so that's not a rule for someone we want to be seeing to "have to adhere to" - it's something that just ensures compatibility when we're picking dating partners.

There was one particular incident with a person I'd been seeing about 4 months. I was working in Worktown and going to visit Adam every other weekend and Newish Guy on the opposite weekends. Then my grandmother died and the funeral was on one of Newish Guy's weekends, so I called him to explain I needed to adjust our schedule and I would be able to visit him the next two weekends in a row to make up for the tweak in schedule. My non-negotiable is not taking new partners to family funerals as a first meeting. That's not a poly thing, it's a life thing.

Reasonable human beings would truly not argue this one. Turns out Newish Guy was extremely unreasonable, leaving me a tirade of abuse on my phone to wake up to on the morning of my grandmother's funeral.
Newish Guy didn't become an ongoing person on my life. There were a variety of other things I had been noticing and I pulled the pin entirely in under 6 months, and some months later learned about BPD and strongly suspect that was a significant factor. I was not active on this board at the time so didn't document how that all went down in real time.
For those who want to know, Adam came with me to the funeral as he had known Grandma for years by then and wanted to pay his respects personally, as well as support me.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top