Therapy - Strength vs weakness

[Ariakas]

So interesting side bar thoughts from my continued journy. 25 years of being open and I am still working on myself.

I know this next set of thoughts is rooted in toxic masculinity. I have been doing a lot of work, therapy, poly secure, reading on attachment styles and just generally trying to heal myself. This is in an effort to better myself for my partners and future partners. Really just want to calm my brain.

BUT.. my toxic lizard brain is telling me this work is devaluing myself for her. She is seeing me in a clinical way instead of a strong person (which I was until 3 months ago). This weakness, while she is supporting me now, has devalued my long term interest.

Does anyone else struggle with admitting the need for help and at the same time feeling like it devalues yourself? Or is it all sunshine and rainbows

 

[LaminarFlow]

Don't have that problem, only had that in my early teens a little. I always want(ed) to fix things myself and would only ask for help when things are super dire, but it takes a strong person to ask for help. Maybe have a look at your schema(s), it goes way further than just attachment styles and mostly caused during formative/early years:

The Ultimate Guide to Early Maladaptive Schemas [Full List]

There are 18 Early Maladaptive Schemas that generally form as a result of repeated toxic experiences in childhood or adolescence.

www.attachmentproject.com

So happy to read you are on a healing journey, Ariakas!

 

[Tinwen]

You may try this thought:

In this new era, where the world changes rapidly and nothing is fixed and reliable, self-improvement is no longer a luxury, it's a must. It's the only way to keep up with the change. In some sense, it's the modern fight.

Also, I believe being emotionally aware was always part of charisma and wisdom.

Don't worry. Conscious men are attractive.

 

[SquishyHusk]

I started seeing a female therapist at first, but I soon realized she was spending the time asking about how the sex worked like I was just an erotic podcast for her, so I moved to a male therapist and it's a better fit for me.

 

[Ariakas]

I started seeing a female therapist at first, but I soon realized she was spending the time asking about how the sex worked like I was just an erotic podcast for her, so I moved to a male therapist and it's a better fit for me.

My therapist is a woman and sex therapist. We spend almost no time at all talking about sex. Its all about my inner child and other stuff.

 

[Evie]

Inner child work isn't the only way to do therapy. Perhaps a different approach would help you not see it as "devaluing".

 

[Ariakas]

Inner child work isn't the only way to do therapy. Perhaps a different approach would help you not see it as "devaluing".

Actually I started referring to it as my lizard brain.

Its been more helpful than talking to my inner child.

 

[jantjen91]

I think you can feel like it devalues who you thought you were, especially if you are bringing up how your thoughts and habits are from past trauma. To unwrap years of behaviors can make you feel like you are a hot mess. I'm going through counseling right now and don't like it because it makes me confront emotions that I've stuffed in for years.

 

[Bobbi]

I like lizard brain as a tool. Your lizard brain has been programmed by the patriarchy. Many people don't relate toxic masculinity to the patriarchy. When women talk about toxic masculinity, men tend to take it personally, not realizing that they too are victims of patriarchy.

my toxic lizard brain is telling me this work is devaluing myself for her.

In fact, it's quite the opposite. Through therapy and learning to be your best self, you are your increasing value to her.

She is seeing me in a clinical way instead of a strong person

Does your partner sees you this way, or is your lizard brain telling you this? If it is her, it sounds like she has some work to do herself to remove that patriarchy programming.

This weakness, while she is supporting me now, has devalued my long term interest.

Her long-term interest in you, or your long-term interest in her? Has she said this, or is it a story your lizard brain is telling you?

Does anyone else struggle with admitting the need for help, and at the same time feeling like it devalues you, or is it all sunshine and rainbows?

I'm betting that depends on how much they have let the patriarchy dictate what it means to be a man. Patriarchy says that real men don't cry, they have aggression; real men don't have any feelings except anger. Real men can go it alone and don't need anyone; real men don't ask for help. Anything contrary is seen as weakness.

It's all bullshit. Gender roles dictated by the patriarchy are bullshit and are harmful to BOTH MEN AND WOMEN.

People need each other. They need to be able to feel and express ALL emotions and they need to be able to ask for help without recriminations. It takes a strong person to stand up to the patriarchy and ask for help. It is NOT a weakness.

 

[Ariakas]

I like lizard brain as a tool. Your lizard brain has been programmed by patriarchy. Many people don't relate toxic masculinity to patriarchy. When women talk about toxic masculinity, men tend to take it personal, not realizing that they too are victims of patriarchy.


In fact it's quite the opposite. Through therapy and learning to be your best self, you are increasing value to her.

Fair

Your partner sees you this way? Or your lizard brain is telling you this? If it is her, it sounds like she has some work to do herself to remove that patriarchy programming.

Lizard brain. She sees me as someone who is being vulnerable, taking accountability and trying.

Her long term interest in you or your long term interest in her?Has she said this? Or is it a story your lizard brain is telling you?

Lizard

(contextually almost everything above is my lizard brain haha)

I'm betting that depends on how much they have let patriarchy dictate what it means to be a man. Patriarchy says that real men don't cry..they have aggression; real men don't have any feelings, except anger. Real men can go it alone and don't need anyone and real men don't ask for help. Anything contrary is seen as weakness.

It's all bullshit. Gender roles dictated by patriarchy are bullshit and are harmful to BOTH MEN AND WOMEN.

Agreed. Hence the ask.

People need each other. They need to be able to feel and express ALL emotions and they need to be able to ask for help without recriminations. It takes a strong person to stand up to patriarchy and ask for help....it is NOT a weakness.

Also agreed.

 

[kdt26417]

Hi Ariakas,

I know, men are supposed to be strong, if you are weak in any way it devalues you as a man, makes you feel undesirable and like you do not belong/want to be in a relationship. I suppose the thing to keep in mind is that it takes a lot of courage to admit to having a weakness. And courage is not the absence of fear; it is the act of pushing forward into the frightening terrain in spite of the fear. If you can sit with your weakness, and acknowledge how that feels, then you are being courageous and, paradoxically, strong.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[Bobbi]

I see men being vulnerable, emotional, who question what they know as strong. I find vulnerability VERY attractive. I have NEVER been attracted to macho men. I need a man I can relate to, have emotional, deep conversations with and know he's as emotionally connected to me as I am to him. Those are strengths in my book and I bet your partner feels the same. Don't look back...just keep pushing forward and reap the rewards!

 

[Albert Ross]

I had a lot of learned stigma about mental illness when I first started going to therapy. I was going for anxiety. At some point I asked my doctor, rather defensively, "Look, I know I get anxious a lot, but is it really an anxiety disorder? Like, what makes it qualify as a disorder?"

Her answer was simple: "Does your anxiety prevent you from living life the way you'd like to?"

"Well, yeah."

"That's a disorder."

"...That's it?"

"Yup."

That really drained all the self-imposed judgement out of it. Like, I'm sure some men would refuse the cast and crutches despite having a compound fracture of their leg, thinking it insufficiently masculine to give up walking for something as pussy-ass as a shattered femur poking through a ragged tear in the skin... but most of us aren't quite that toxically masculine.

Well, needing support for the way your brain works is 0% different from needing support for how your body works.

And if that analogy doesn't do anything for you, consider: the concept of human beings being more or less "valuable" is incoherent in any kind of halfway decent world.

TL;DR: your lizard brain can get fucked. But also, the poor thing. It's just trying to keep you alive in the jungle. It merely has no idea you don't live in the jungle.

 

[Juan234]

I get anxious a lot, but is it really an anxiety disorder? Like, what makes it qualify as a disorder?"

Her answer was simple: "Does your anxiety prevent you from living life the way you'd like to?"

"Well, yeah."

"That's a disorder."

"...That's it?"

"Yup."

That was absolutely brilliant Albert. Thank you.

Ariakas - you may need to ID more than one spectrum or dimensionality to the discussion and such may not be clearly distinguished yet. For example, vulnerability, if while still being able to prop up your courtship feathers can ’appear’ like a “macho” conundrum. Accordingly, you have received lots of valuable feedback here, yet for me your original post seems brief and sounds a little disjointed. As if something key to clarity has not yet been disclosed or is not distinguished yet. You spoke about the first part of polyamory, the poly part. But where is the second “amory” part, or love, in all of this, both your self worth, toward others, and that which is coming from your primary (although you did hint at a complex dynamic in the latter when you said “while she is supporting me now”)?

There is a male school of thought that women subconsciously either want a stronger man (e.g., emotionally, or financially) than themselves (social climber theory) and again subconsciously if they perceive not getting it they then become feisty and test the waters to dump him otherwise. It can be damaging and even a self-fulfulling prophecy if men subconsciously fall for this and then cannot be themselves. I think you are quite astute to bring this out (or you have a great counselor). It is important to find a relationship (primary typically but platonic and even a fishing buddy also works) where you can be you. And we all change over time, but less critically as we age and dovetail our personality to our long term ‘selves’. The opposite school of thought is that some women look for a broken man that they can fix. And scammer men love it by feinting vulnerability. The spectrum can lead to losers’ games which are zero sum and not fun. That is why I ask where love is in your view, and in your relationship, including your metamour?

I think of lizard brain as our self-preservation instinct kicking in. When reason gives way to fear. When our nature does more harm than good and we need coaching to find balance and freedom.

My personal view is that when I serve others overall, I am happy and things work out. Anything for the common good tends to get me out of my shell. The trick is to find a way to volunteer/contribute to a better world that is appetizing to your own personal interest. And bonding thereby comes more naturally and trustworthy.

 

[icesong]

Actually I started referring to it as my lizard brain.

Its been more helpful than talking to my inner child.

I rather like that framing, as the inner child concept has always done NOTHING for me. I figured that was a result of having a bit great childhood though… on the other hand I really disliked being a child and wanted to be an adult as soon as possible.

 

[Ariakas]

That was absolutely brilliant Albert. Thank you.

Ariakas - you may need to ID more than one spectrum or dimensionality to the discussion and such may not be clearly distinguished yet. For example, vulnerability, if while still being able to prop up your courtship feathers can ’appear’ like a “macho” conundrum. Accordingly, you have received lots of valuable feedback here, yet for me your original post seems brief and sounds a little disjointed. As if something key to clarity has not yet been disclosed or is not distinguished yet. You spoke about the first part of polyamory, the poly part. But where is the second “amory” part, or love, in all of this, both your self worth, toward others, and that which is coming from your primary (although you did hint at a complex dynamic in the latter when you said “while she is supporting me now”)?

Without having to over explain, since folks here do know me, the amory part is a given, and intense for myself, my wife and partner. The concern is related to a history of disposing of me when vulnerability comes to light. I am not poly without love.

There is a male school of thought that women subconsciously either want a stronger man (e.g., emotionally, or financially) than themselves (social climber theory) and again subconsciously if they perceive not getting it they then become feisty and test the waters to dump him otherwise. It can be damaging and even a self-fulfulling prophecy if men subconsciously fall for this and then cannot be themselves.

I think you are conflating success and confidence with being vulnerable. I am working towards being both, not excluding my financian social climber from the fact I want to be vulnerable and available.

I think you are quite astute to bring this out (or you have a great counselor). It is important to find a relationship (primary typically but platonic and even a fishing buddy also works) where you can be you. And we all change over time, but less critically as we age and dovetail our personality to our long term ‘selves’. The opposite school of thought is that some women look for a broken man that they can fix. And scammer men love it by feinting vulnerability. The spectrum can lead to losers’ games which are zero sum and not fun. That is why I ask where love is in your view, and in your relationship, including your metamour?

I dont love my metas. I use love very sepcifically and it doesn't include non romantic people. I care for my meta's but dont love them. My partner is not trying to fix me, in fact, she refuses to say I need to fix myself for her, I am fixing myself for me.

I think of lizard brain as our self-preservation instinct kicking in. When reason gives way to fear. When our nature does more harm than good and we need coaching to find balance and freedom.

My personal view is that when I serve others overall, I am happy and things work out. Anything for the common good tends to get me out of my shell. The trick is to find a way to volunteer/contribute to a better world that is appetizing to your own personal interest. And bonding thereby comes more naturally and trustworthy.

My challenge is the scarcity mindset. What am I losing... its one I am working through. I have also never felt compersion..

 

[SquishyHusk]

I rather like that framing, as the inner child concept has always done NOTHING for me. I figured that was a result of having a bit great childhood though… on the other hand I really disliked being a child and wanted to be an adult as soon as possible.

I stayed in touch with my inner child. I still enjoy playing with Lego blocks, video games, building sandcastles at the beach, stuff like that.

 

[Ariakas]

I had a lot of learned stigma about mental illness when I first started going to therapy. I was going for anxiety. At some point I asked my doctor, rather defensively, "Look, I know I get anxious a lot, but is it really an anxiety disorder? Like, what makes it qualify as a disorder?"

Her answer was simple: "Does your anxiety prevent you from living life the way you'd like to?"

"Well, yeah."

"That's a disorder."

"...That's it?"

"Yup."

That really drained all the self-imposed judgement out of it.

Fair. I like this thinking

Like, I'm sure some men would refuse the cast and crutches despite having a compound fracture of their leg, thinking it insufficiently masculine to give up walking for something as pussy-ass as a shattered femur poking through a ragged tear in the skin... but most of us aren't quite that toxically masculine.

... no comment. I actively mountain bike and have walked out of the woods broken haha.. I can manage quite a bit of physical damage. This brain shit sucks ass.

Well, needing support for the way your brain works is 0% different from needing support for how your body works.

Body is easy. Cast er up, lets go. Power through, pain is gone.

Brain is not, and its heavily impactful to others. Its... fucking brutal. And while I have stuck through several partners crashes, I dont know why they would stick through mine. Its really that simple.

And if that analogy doesn't do anything for you, consider: the concept of human beings being more or less "valuable" is incoherent in any kind of halfway decent world.

TL;DR: your lizard brain can get fucked. But also, the poor thing. It's just trying to keep you alive in the jungle. It merely has no idea you don't live in the jungle.

Fair ..

 

[Ariakas]

I stayed in touch with my inner child. I still enjoy playing with Lego blocks, video games, building sandcastles at the beach, stuff like that.

My inner child was knife fighting, managing to live on his own doing his own chores and had the sexual interest of an 18 year old. My 9 year old self wasn't allowed to be a kid. He was surviving.

 

[Ariakas]

I see men being vulnerable, emotional, who question what they know as strong. I find vulnerability VERY attractive. I have NEVER been attracted to macho men. I need a man I can relate to, have emotional, deep conversations with and know he's as emotionally connected to me as I am to him. Those are strengths in my book and I bet your partner feels the same. Don't look back...just keep pushing forward and reap the rewards!

Thank you, your, and this opinion means a lot and succinct haha