Marriage and polyamory?

[Trying2]

I believe marriage can serve similar personal and emotional purposes for polyamorous people as it does for monogamous people.

Monogamy hasn't always been the norm in marriage. This isn’t an argument for polygamy; rather, it's to highlight that marriage has evolved over generations and is currently a legally enforced monogamous institution in most places.

If you strip away the forced monogamy and set aside the legal benefits for a moment, marriage is essentially a ceremony, a public proclamation of love, and a commitment. These romantic desires aren’t exclusive to monogamous people. I believe we would see groups of people marrying if it were legally permissible.

So, I understand the emotional reasoning behind it. And polyamory itself doesn’t inherently dismantle the marriage "fairy tale."

However, there are rational reasons to caution unmarried poly couples from entering a legally enforced monogamous institution. Primarily because it creates a legal hierarchy between two people. This hierarchy can be disregarded in practice, but it still exists in reality and in the legal principles of the institution. Additionally, bigamy laws prevent you from marrying someone else while you're still married, which limits your autonomy to express love in the same way unless you divorce first.

I also believe poly marriage can disadvantage men unfairly. Marriage often decreases a man’s perceived sexual value in the dating market. Poly relationships may already have severe sexual power imbalances. Many one-sided poly relationships involve married couples where the man can seek other lovers but struggles to find anyone.

Marriage can also act as an additional barrier to leaving a relationship. I often see people trying to save a marriage through polyamory and think to myself: divorce first, then consider polyamory. Address what's not working (the marriage), and then see if you can transition into a new dynamic together.

If I were advising a young man who is poly dating, I would generally advise against marriage. Because we haven't sufficiently redefined traditional male roles in relationships, I think the disadvantages of marriage for poly men outweighs any advantage in a majority of cases.

"If I were advising a young man who is poly dating, I would generally advise against marriage. Because we haven't sufficiently redefined traditional male roles in relationships, I think the disadvantages of marriage for poly men outweighs any advantage in a majority of cases."

I totally agree with you here. For better or worse, a cis/het married man's dating value drops dramatically. This does not seem to be the case with women who often report they are overwhelmed with men wishing to date them. Sorting through all these opportunities trying to find the right ones is what they say is difficult.

It is somewhat fitting that the centuries of undeserved patriarchal privilege men have enjoyed in a mono-based culture is entirely turned upside down in a poly situation. Women rule in poly!

 

[Bobbi]

But most make a vow(spiritual/emotional)to each other that has nothing to do with the legal aspects of partnered relationships regardless of where you live and the laws governing such commitments.

Of course. When religion mixed a religious ceremony with the legal, it became that. You can still do the ceremony and commitment without the legal part.

Could it be in polyamory, marriage acts as your "safety valve" or "safe haven", something to be relied upon when everything else is going wrong?

Anything is possible. People get married for various reasons. I'd argue it's not a great reason to get married though. Marriage isn't a guarantee of anything though

When you are secure in life and have much romantic/sexual attention from multiple people and more wishing to come on board, marriage may seem constraining or unnecessary.

You write as if women just line men up for a turn, taking on as many as they can. It's a very uninformed view of polyamory.

But how about if and when things go the other way? Say serious health issues or a disfiguring car accident, something really big. Is that when people fall back on the safety(possibly perceived) of marriage?

I'd argue poly people rely on all serious partners. Would suck to be the lone spouse. One of the beauties of poly, partners work together in caregiving.

Or can it be the emotional effort and work required to nourish multiple romantic/sexual relationships runs its course and people wish to put there time and energy into other things in life?

I'm not sure what this is saying....how it relates to marriage

Will your poly lovers be there in the long run for you if and when things take a turn for the worse? None of us know till we are there.

This can be said about anyone you count on. I've been there and there's no guarantee people will be there for you. Not friends, family or even spouses. Luckily my partners were there for me....without marriage. Many in my family and friends were not

I guess this is where marriage might provide some comfort - hoping that your spouse will not leave when the going gets tough.

False comfort. You can hope for anyone important to you to be there for you. Parents, children, spouses, partners, friends...it's amazing how people disappear when you need them most but like you said, you won't know who will stay and help until it happens.

 

[Bobbi]

we haven't sufficiently redefined traditional male roles in relationships,

We need to break down patriarchy. It's harmful to both men and women. There's no redefining "traditional" male roles. That's what got us here in the first place. Stop trying to fill a "male" role and become a true partner.

I think the disadvantages of marriage for poly men outweighs any advantage in a majority of cases.

This is rather sexist. Marriage provides (in most states in the US) the same pluses and minuses for both men and women.

As a woman, I dont think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. I'll never marry.

For better or worse, a cis/het married man's dating value drops dramatically. This does not seem to be the case with women who often report they are overwhelmed with men wishing to date them.

I think context is missing here. Yes, poly men will have a hard time dating mono women because these women are most likely looking for a husband. (Because they have been programmed from birth into believing they have to have that. Berated into believing being as sexually active or promiscuous as a man is also shameful) And poly women will have an easier time attracting mono men who just want a FB (because they can fuck whomever without shame...they do it with pride) That doesn't mean poly women have a plethora of men to choose from. It means women have to do the extra work of weeding through all of the ones that don't really want relationships, are single because they aren't great people or would make horrible partners. Women aren't fuck toys to be used by men yet a lot of them on dating apps act that way. So yes, women get more likes and messages but most are garbage. Men might have to wait longer to get likes but the struggle in finding quality partners is real on both sides.

It is somewhat fitting that the centuries of undeserved patriarchal privilege men have enjoyed in a mono-based culture is entirely turned upside down in a poly situation. Women rule in poly!

Women are certainly empowered in poly. If we could dismantle the harm patriarchy has done to everyone, the dating scene might just even out.

There's still too many entitled men and some women have become so shallow because of putting up with it they put way more emphasis on external factors instead of trying to find the quality men who don't make 500k or arent 6feet tall, ripped and may be average looking in their minds.

My partners have shown me the guys side of dating profiles of women and it's shocking. My partners had no issues once they got honest on their profiles and started talking to those who's profiles interested them regardless of what they look like. That being said, I'm sure some locations will be harder than others. The Bible belt is probably not your poly friend...at least not out and proud

 

[Ariakas]

I don’t know anything about the New Zealand court system but there are states here in the US that have common law marriage too. But I think it would be really hard if not impossible ( maybe even laughable) to try to drag one of your poly partners into court and claim a common law marriage to get a paycheck.

It's coming to BC. Common law poly partners will be held responsible for paternity and spousal for example

 

[SquishyHusk]

Pumpkin often takes the kid to medical appointments and it is always a pain to have to submit a bunch of paperwork to allow the medical office to talk to Pumpkin. If Pumpkin was a legally recognized 'parent', it would makes things easier.
Getting married was very important to Cookie. I think she wanted the security and stability - but also the legitimacy in the public eye. She didn't want to be 'shacking up' with a guy, she wanted to be living with her husband. I was happy to marry her. She was my dream girl.
Having a ring to wear on her ring finger was important enough to Pumpkin that she bought one for herself. I guess it's to symbolize that she is off the market? I think she'd like to be married to Cookie. I think there is a fair chance that if I was out of the picture, Cookie and Pumpkin would be monogamous.

 

[dingedheart]

You asserted you GOT NOTHING from marriage.

1) I wasn’t asserting anything about my marriage. 2) What people do as romantic couples in a shared living environment whether they have a legal document of commitment.

I am listing the things I gave to my marriage.

Are you suggesting if you were poly from day one and not married, your list of what you gave the “relationship,“ not marriage, would look quite different? Like making his sandwiches or doing his clothes shopping?

I didn't complain about the sex. It was a benefit of our marriage. You claimed there were none.

I don’t think being married vs poly and not married is going to increase or change sexual habits. I think in terms of sexual fulfillment being poly would be more advantageous.

It was something I did for the health and peace and finances of our family.

And without that legal document, had you been in a poly dynamic, you would have maybe done things differently? You gave that to the marriage… NOT the relationship?

I did what I felt was my duty as a mother and wife. He worked long hours so I was responsible for almost everything in the home. He was also old school to an extent and there were things he didn't seem to want to do because of traditional gender roles.

Forget gender roles for a second, it seems like you did a great job with a division of labor. Lots of tasks, so many hrs in a day, and the personal choices of family planning, you ended up with workable schedules and or solutions. BUT I don’t think marriage got you that.

 

[dingedheart]

It's coming to BC. Common law poly partners will be held responsible for paternity and spousal for example

Can’t wait to see that on court tv . I would think these case will center on child support or situations of long term nesting because going to court gets expensive FAST.

 

[Magdlyn]

1) I wasn’t asserting anything about my marriage.

Okay, I hear you. But knowing your history, and bitterness about how your marriage ended (you've been quite open about it in the past), I do think there's a bit of bias there. You can't deny we all speak from our own place of history and experiences.

2) What people do as romantic couples in a shared living environment, whether they have a legal document of commitment.

Are you suggesting if you were poly from day one and not married, your list of what you gave the “relationship,“ not marriage, would look quite different? Like making his sandwiches or doing his clothes shopping?


I don’t think being married, vs poly and not married, is going to increase or change sexual habits. I think in terms of sexual fulfillment being poly would be more advantageous.

And without that legal document, had you been in a poly dynamic, you would have maybe done things differently? You gave that to the marriage… NOT the relationship?

Forget gender roles for a second, it seems like you did a great job with a division of labor. Lots of tasks, so many hrs in a day, and the personal choices of family planning, you ended up with workable schedules and or solutions. BUT I don’t think marriage got you that.

Those are good questions. I have never asked myself these questions... I will have a think on it and get back to this. Thanks.

 

[Inaniel]

We need to break down patriarchy. It's harmful to both men and women. There's no redefining "traditional" male roles. That's what got us here in the first place. Stop trying to fill a "male" role and become a true partner.

Perhaps 'deconstructing' traditional male roles is a more accurate way to describe what really needs to happen.

This is rather sexist. Marriage provides (in most states in the US) the same pluses and minuses for both men and women.

As a woman, I dont think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. I'll never marry.

I don't think the statement is sexist; rather, I view it as a practical response to existing sexism in society and a strategy that might help a couple navigate the poly lifestyle in a way that is equitable for both parties.

The idea that marriage provides men and women with the same advantages and disadvantages is factually untrue. This is an idealistic statement that fails to account for the unavoidable role gender plays in public perception, courtroom bias, and the lasting impact of 20th-century marriages on our collective psyche. Although definitions of gender may have been removed from legal language in most places, marriage has never offered identical "pluses and minuses" for both men and women. In a very distilled version of contemporary American marriage, it often involves the exchange of a woman's sexual autonomy for a man's financial autonomy. While contemporaries may have perceived these as equal and opposite, they were never truly the same benefit for both sexes.

I think context is missing here. Yes, poly men will have a hard time dating mono women because these women are most likely looking for a husband. (Because they have been programmed from birth into believing they have to have that. Berated into believing being as sexually active or promiscuous as a man is also shameful) And poly women will have an easier time attracting mono men who just want a FB (because they can fuck whomever without shame...they do it with pride) That doesn't mean poly women have a plethora of men to choose from. It means women have to do the extra work of weeding through all of the ones that don't really want relationships, are single because they aren't great people or would make horrible partners. Women aren't fuck toys to be used by men yet a lot of them on dating apps act that way. So yes, women get more likes and messages but most are garbage. Men might have to wait longer to get likes but the struggle in finding quality partners is real on both sides.

What you’re describing here is a situation where a woman is actively dating, flirting, going out to dinners, attending shows and concerts, having sex, and so on, while a man is stuck swiping and swiping on dating apps. These two experiences are hardly the same. So, suggesting that the struggle to find quality partners is equal on both sides misses important context.

If a man with a wedding ring tries to socialize with women at a bar, he’s often labeled a creep. If he removes the ring to socialize, he’s seen as deceitful, and a creep. A married man who is attractive and gregarious or who has attributes like working in finance, being 6'5", with blue eyes may be less affected by these challenges. However, these aren’t typically the men we see struggling on the forums.

I’m not trying to cast men as victims here. More success for men in poly dating ultimately benefits women as well. When a married couple explores polyamory, if the man sees his wife having all the enjoyable experiences while he struggles, it’s understandable that he might reconsider the arrangement.

My partners have shown me the guys side of dating profiles of women and it's shocking. My partners had no issues once they got honest on their profiles and started talking to those who's profiles interested them regardless of what they look like. That being said, I'm sure some locations will be harder than others. The Bible belt is probably not your poly friend...at least not out and proud

So, it sounds like they lower their standards? I can see how that might be another viable strategy...

 

[Bobbi]

Perhaps 'deconstructing' traditional male roles is a more accurate way to describe what really needs to happen.

Yes

it often involves the exchange of a woman's sexual autonomy for a man's financial autonomy

Most men complain of the financial cost of marriage and divorce. This is a fallacy. In current times it is the spouse that makes more.

What you’re describing here is a situation where a woman is actively dating, flirting, going out to dinners, attending shows and concerts, having sex, and so on, while a man is stuck swiping and swiping on dating apps

No. I described a dating app that has hundreds of likes for women and few for men. Hundreds of likes does not equate to lots of dates. It just means guys swipe right on everyone and women only swipe right on someone they are interested in.

So many men just put pics and nothing of substance in their profiles. If I can't connect with anything they don't get a swipe no matter how good looking they are.

Most guys see my pic and swipe not even reading my profile...that's not going to get them anywhere with me. Effort has to be shown that I'm more than just attractive.

If a man with a wedding ring tries to socialize with women at a bar, he’s often labeled a creep. If he removes the ring to socialize, he’s seen as deceitful, and a creep.

Patriarchy caused this. The reason men don't see women with wedding rings hitting on men as creepy is because men don't care. They are sex based creatures that have no issues being seen as a sexual toy for women's pleasure if even for a few minutes. Meanwhile women are tired of being used.

experiences while he struggles, it’s understandable that he might reconsider the arrangement.

The struggle is real. Dismantle patriarchy and empower women and you might start to find more women enjoying poly.

One political candidate is still pushing this shit by saying the other got where she is on her knees. As long as these messages continue, women will always feel they cannot live free lives as sexual beings like men can. Blame that messaging and behavior on why you can't find dates.

So, it sounds like they lower their standards? I can see how that might be another viable strategy...

Not at all...their standards are finding people who interest them in ways other than looks. If you see that as lowering your standards then you aren't getting it. Going for looks does not get you a quality partner. There's way more to people than looks and a hot body. People become attractive or ugly as you get to know them.

 

[Ariakas]

Not at all...their standards are finding people who interest them in ways other than looks. If you see that as lowering your standards then you aren't getting it. Going for looks does not get you a quality partner. There's way more to people than looks and a hot body. People become attractive or ugly as you get to know them.

Love this.

 

[Inaniel]

Most men complain of the financial cost of marriage and divorce. This is a fallacy. In current times it is the spouse that makes more.

Money and marriage is a different topic, and financial considerations are the only exception I would make when it comes to a marriage contract. If someone is supporting a breadwinner's lifestyle, marriage can still be a practical means of achieving some form of financial equality, regardless of whether the individual is a man or a woman.

Patriarchy caused this. The reason men don't see women with wedding rings hitting on men as creepy is because men don't care. They are sex based creatures that have no issues being seen as a sexual toy for women's pleasure if even for a few minutes. Meanwhile women are tired of being used.

My advice to avoid marriage in polyamory is a response to the current state of society and marriage. Regardless of where the biases originated, the world doesn’t change overnight. We should continue working to improve society, but in the meantime, positioning oneself for the best chance of success given the current circumstances is the most practical approach.

The struggle is real. Dismantle patriarchy and empower women and you might start to find more women enjoying poly.

One political candidate is still pushing this shit by saying the other got where she is on her knees. As long as these messages continue, women will always feel they cannot live free lives as sexual beings like men can. Blame that messaging and behavior on why you can't find dates.

My statement wasn’t intended to be political or to cast blame on any structure, gender, or individual. I’m simply discussing strategy.

Most guys see my pic and swipe not even reading my profile...that's not going to get them anywhere with me. Effort has to be shown that I'm more than just attractive.

Right, the conversation often shifts to how clueless men are, which could be a factor. However, we're not talking about incels when referring to married men. By definition, these men were savvy enough to secure dates, a girlfriend, and ultimately a wife in the first place.

Not at all...their standards are finding people who interest them in ways other than looks. If you see that as lowering your standards then you aren't getting it. Going for looks does not get you a quality partner. There's way more to people than looks and a hot body. People become attractive or ugly as you get to know them.

Admittedly, my sweet spot is finding someone who is physically, intellectually, and emotionally exhilarating. That’s my happy place. If wanting all of that is considered toxic, then I will own that.

 

[SquishyHusk]

Most men complain of the financial cost of marriage and divorce. This is a fallacy. In current times it is the spouse that makes more.

The courtrooms are still full of old judges with old ideas. Some of those old ideas are that the man should always pay and that children belong with their mother - pesky facts like who earns more or who is a more suitable parent don't matter to them.

 

[Bobbi]

The courtrooms are still full of old judges with old ideas. Some of those old ideas are that the man should always pay and that children belong with their mother - pesky facts like who earns more or who is a more suitable parent don't matter to them.

Sad but true depending on where you live. Community property states can be problematic too. That's why I fully support prenups. Take the power away from the judges and states and put it in the couples hands while they love each other.

 

[Trying2]

If you want to boil it down to this specific question.....my personal thoughts on this...

People marry because that has been the expectation of what you do when you find that special someone. It's a lovely romantic idea that rules many of our psyche and having a wedding with a declaration with friends and family legitimizes the relationship. (I still think poly people legally marry for specific legal reasons specific to the needs of the people involved. Most married poly people were married first then became poly.)

In the end, you can be married and have multiple partners. You can make life commitments to multiple people but as of now, you can only be legally married to one. Things are changing though. There are now 3 cities (Somerville, Arlington and Cambridge) now recognizing domestic partnerships with multiple people and others that have non discrimination laws.

"People marry because that has been the expectation of what you do when you find that special someone."

This is what mono-centric people do (marry based on societal expectations). Since poly people do not submit to these expectations, why do they still marry, beyond the oft-mentioned financial benefits?

Is it possible, like mono-centric people, poly folks feel that being married carries some personally deep and fulfilling benefits and confers their extraordinary love to their spouse?

 

[Albert Ross]

"mono-centric people" and "poly folks" aren't two distinct cultures that developed on different continents in isolation from each other; we're mostly all products of the same influences. So why is it surprising many polyamorous people feel similarly to many monogamous people about marriage?

 

[Bobbi]

This is what mono-centric people do (marry based on societal expectations). Since poly people do not submit to these expectations, why do they still marry, beyond the oft-mentioned financial benefits?

You are making a HUGE assumption here. To remove this monogamy thinking takes a ton of work. Many don't really care to work on that specific thing (marriage) because it feels good and they still want that. That's why many poly people still get married.

Monogamy programming runs too deep. I know poly people who have been poly for decades, in therapy that still bump into it every now and then. There will always be some things individuals may want to hold on to because of personal values

 

[Bobbi]

The RA worksheet breaks down parts of relationships that you want or don't want. The only difference between parts monogamy and other forms is that things are prescribed instead of chosen and negotiated

 

[Ariakas]

I understand the practical legal and financial reasons for marriage, but how it fits into a poly relationship is confusing. Of course marriage should not be a license to control another person. Why would a poly person want to marry other than for the legal and financial benefits? The overarching need for autonomy is in direct conflict with the many compromises required by marriage.

I don't think marriage is in direct conflict with autonomy. (Is your view of marriage exclusively christian or are you seeing it as a union of 2 people in a social ceremony)

It's a social and emotional ceremony that represents a different level of commit.

Poly can feel chaotic and disposable depending on the environment. This can be a level set between folks to represent a different level of commit.

And I guess in the end. You don't have to get it .. and it's not anyone's job to explain it to you ad nauseum.

 

[Bobbi]

The overarching need for autonomy is in direct conflict with the many compromises required by marriage.

This is monogamy programming. Nowhere did anyone say marriage takes away autonomy. Society has programmed us to believe that there are certain expectations or assumptions in monogamy and a loss of autonomy is one of them. In polyamory open communication about everything is essential. Nothing is assumed.

Marriage in poly is probably healthier and more successful (if it started poly) because everything is discussed, nothing is assumed and everything is agreed upon. Autonomy is healthy. It is not antithetical to marriage.