Marriage and polyamory?

[Trying2]

Are marriage and polyamory compatible? What role does a marriage play in a polyamorous relationship? It seems the deeper people delve into polyamory the less viable marriage is.

I recently listened to an interview with "Polysecure" author Jessica Fern explaining her current situation. She is living with her ex-husband in a non-romantic/nonsexual relationship. She calls him her "life partner" whatever that means. I suspect since they had a child together she is referring to staying in the relationship for that reason. They both admitted it is more convenient to live together while raising the child rather than shuttling back and forth.

It seems marriages are mostly about finances and sharing child-care responsibility. When people have the financial resources they no longer need marriage as much and it is much easier to separate.

As we progress into the 21st century, why marry if you wish to be polyamorous?

 

[Evie]

There are more reasons than just children for staying with a now platonic spouse.

But you're right, there's no need for legal marriage in polyamory.

There are exceptions in the barbaric USA where health insurance for an unemployed spouse is dependent upon marriage. But there's also people who would stay married even if they won the lottery (or both worked jobs with excellent health insurance).

For example, I want to grow old with my husband. I'd like to grow old with my other partners, too, but they also have wives and there isn't a very high chance of us all ending up in one rest home together lol. Life partners means just that...the person(s) you want to be connected with for life, in a way that is deeper than just friendship. Of course, I could do that without the marriage, but since I got married quite a while ago, I'm not going to change that now. We fully embraced polyamory a few years into the marriage. Had we had the polyamory discussion beforehand, just maybe we wouldn't have gotten married, although I suspect we still would have for our own private reasons (that do not include children).

There are definitely some polyamorists divorce (but stay together ) in order to remove privileges afforded to a spouse. So for them, marriage isn't important.

At this stage of the 21st century, polyamory tend to come after marriage still, not before. Give it another few generations and hopefully polyamory will be as legally protected as all other relationships. It would take major legislative overhaul though. So in the meantime, perhaps marriages will dwindle f people embrace polyamory young enough.

 

[dingedheart]

In the USA, for a man, it makes zero sense to be married. IT GETS YOU NOTHING and it exposes you to splitting acquired assets and future earnings. Have a ceremony and party, just don’t make it legal.

 

[Magdlyn]

In the USA, for a man, it makes zero sense to be married. IT GETS YOU NOTHING and it exposes you to splitting acquired assets and future earnings. Have a ceremony and party, just don’t make it legal.

Wow. Okay, we are all allowed to express our personal opinions based on our experiences, good and bad. I'm sorry your experience with marriage went so badly.

My ex h got a lot from me before we divorced. I gave him my youth. I gave him tons of sex. Despite being poly at heart and pansexual, I never cheated. I gave him three beautiful intelligent children. I cooked him/our family a homecooked dinner every night, 365 days a year, for over 30 years. (Let that sink in...) I packed his lunches most of that time too, with food he requested. I did ALL his laundry, collected it off the floor where he dropped it, washed and dried it and put it away. I did all the children's laundry until they could do their own. I was totally responsible for cleaning the house. I even shopped for his clothes! I was a SAHM when the kids were young. I breastfed and homeschooled our children, but eventually I got part time jobs too. I taxied the kids to all their appointments. He got to come home at the end of a long hard day and commute, to his nice fresh whole foods nutritious balanced dinner, which cost a fraction of what takeout or frozen crap would have cost. When the kids were young, I held them off him when he got home until he'd eaten dinner, so he could eat in peace. I also held them off him in the morning so he could have coffee and breakfast and shower and dress before work in peace. (I did not get to do those things; I had to be taking care of the kids' breakfasts, dressing them, etc.) I hired a company to mow our lawn. I did all the other gardening and yard work myself. Once our oldest was 12, she and I did all the home maintenance. We got real good with a screwdriver, drill and plumbing tools. I planned and threw ALL of the birthday parties and bought and wrapped the gifts. I made the holidays happen (shopping for gifts and food, wrapping the gifts, decorating the Xmas tree, cooking, baking, helping the kids get their Halloween costumes together, hiding the Easter chocolates, putting the notes from the tooth fairy under their pillows, hosting and entertaining guests, etc.). I packed the kids' bags for trips to see his extended family. I sent birthday cards to his parents. At some point I began to do my own auto maintenance. I paid the bills with the money he earned.

He also contributed to our home because we were on his insurance (as Evie said), and he was a great breadwinner, too. We agreed we'd both work, saving my income, until the babies came. He did help with the kids, changed diapers, helped with bedtime routines sometimes, played with them and read to them. I am not saying I did all the work. But he definitely got a lot out of being legally tied to me. And he knew why I had to leave him in the end. He took responsibility for not treating me well, taking me for granted, being passive aggressive, jealous when he didn't need to be, etc. He gladly gave over half OUR assets to me.

 

[Magdlyn]

After my marriage, I was kind of against getting married again. Sometimes I wish I were married to Pixi, but that wouldn't be fair to her bf or my bf.

If I'd been happily securely married before my ex and I opened our marriage, maybe we would've stayed married and kept living together, or stayed married but lived apart, or divorced but kept living together. Who knows?

I like to delve into history. Marriage has taken many different forms over the millennia, and it still does. For most of recorded history, we have been under patriarchal rule, and marriage meant a man claimed a woman by having sexual intercourse with her, and then he owned her and the resultant offspring. Consummation of the marriage through sex was paramount. The words said, the vows, have changed greatly. Marriage has been used to seal alliances between families, and even between countries, in the times of kings and emperors. Often, love wasn't involved. Often sexual fidelity was not required of the man, although it was of the woman. Often there were plural marriages, one man and several women, or harems with concubines (sex slaves, basically).

Today, with the tiny strides in women's rights, marriage is changing again. Polyamory assumes women are equal to men. Men don't own women or their bodies anymore (in Western culture), although it can be assumed they still do, and practices still reflect that.

 

[Evie]

Have a ceremony and party just don’t make it legal.

In New Zealand we have common law marriage:

Length of relationship​

Together more than 3 years​

If you’ve been married or in a civil union or de facto relationship for more than 3 years, relationship property will be divided equally, unless the court thinks that would be extremely unfair.

Together less than 3 years​

If your marriage or civil union has lasted less than 3 years, the family home and contents will be shared based on what each of you has brought to the marriage or civil union if:

• they were owned by 1 of you before the marriage or civil union began
• they were received by 1 of you as a gift or under a will during the marriage or civil union
• 1 of you made a far greater contribution to the marriage or civil union.

Most people who have lived together in a de facto relationship for less than 3 years will not be covered by the Property (Relationships) Act 1976, unless there’s a child involved or 1 person has made a significant contribution to the relationship.

- www.justice.govt.nz

 

[Trying2]

Many of the replies so far have addressed the practical reasons for marriage - health insurance, childcare, etc

I am more curious about the romantic/sexual/emotional reasons for marrying if you are polyamorous. Why marry, if you wish to be with multiple lovers?

 

[Evie]

Those reasons may be extremely personal to the couple.

 

[kdt26417]

Hello Trying2,

All I know is that my partner and my metamour are legally/lawfully married to each other. So technically, I am an "add-on." But, somehow we make polyamory work for us. Both males (legs of the V) are primary partners to the female. I don't feel like a secondary partner.

I think that most polyamorous situations are a monogamous married couple that transitions into polyamory. So polyamory has to adapt to the marriage. This is the case in my situation. The only alternative is for the married couple to get an amicable divorce, for the sake of equality. Sometimes this is done.

Regards,
Kevin T.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

It seems marriages are mostly about finances and sharing child-care responsibility. When people have the financial resources they no longer need marriage as much and it is much easier to separate.

I think what you're seeing are a lot of people who opened a marriage plus a smaller amount of people who had the need to co-parent with some form of urgency.

I think a harsh reality is that a lot of the people in this group are seeking a type of personal connection that is (now) missing from their primary relationship. There are just a lot of emotional and practical ties that keep them from leaving the relationship to seek it as a single person.

I think a lot of people assume that their feelings will entirely switch off if leaving a spouse is the right thing to do and that's not what happens the majority of the time. You have very mixed feelings and a sense of impending regret, loss, grief and heartache. You have to brave all of that, plus things like financial loss and general disruption, to actually end a marriage.

Polyamory can be a deceptively attractive alternative to that level of change. Especially if it (again, deceptively) appears like you can sustain the outward appearance of your lifestyle.

 

[SEASONEDpolyAgain]

Why marry, if you wish to be with multiple lovers?

So to answer this directly: there are those of us who started out polyamorous, met partners who were compatible with that, and chose to marry them because that, among other things, made them right for us.

There are others who are now polyamorous, but weren't when they married. Polyamory, for at least some of those people, became a way to sustain a marriage that is no longer fulfilling in the way it was, or they thought it could be.

To me, it's becoming obvious that these groups of poly people are distinct from each other in a variety of ways.

 

[Bobbi]

I see marriage as a legal contract between two people and the state. It's not about love or commitment. You can choose to add those things to your relationship if you choose but they are not required. The legal contract, depending on where you live, gives all legal rights to assets, inheritance, responsibility for children, credit, debt, taxes, etc.

You can love and make a lifetime commitment to someone without involving a legal contract. I did this with my life partner and we did some legal contracts that we wanted, which can be revoked simply by tearing it up and notifying that it's no longer valid.

I personally see no value in legal marriage, just headaches. The fact that people get married without a prenup "in the name of love" blows my mind. Marriage isn't about love...its a legal contract. If more people consulted lawyers before signing legal contracts, they would learn the importance of negotiating that contract. But marriage licenses don't even include the contract to read to know what you are getting into.

If I ever did get a legal marriage you bet I would have a prenup that determines how things would be handled in the case of a dissolution. I'm not going to leave it up to the state and courts to decide how it ends.

 

[Bobbi]

I am more curious about the romantic/sexual/emotional reasons for marrying if you are polyamorous. Why marry, if you wish to be with multiple lovers?

If you want to boil it down to this specific question.....my personal thoughts on this...

People marry because that has been the expectation of what you do when you find that special someone. It's a lovely romantic idea that rules many of our psyche and having a wedding with a declaration with friends and family legitimizes the relationship. (I still think poly people legally marry for specific legal reasons specific to the needs of the people involved. Most married poly people were married first then became poly.)

In the end, you can be married and have multiple partners. You can make life commitments to multiple people but as of now, you can only be legally married to one. Things are changing though. There are now 3 cities (Somerville, Arlington and Cambridge) now recognizing domestic partnerships with multiple people and others that have non discrimination laws.

 

[Ariakas]

Marriage is what the two people make it. That being said, I believe poly embraces autonomy of individuals and their relationships. Most married people in poly do not see marriage as ownership or a way to control your spouse. I think if you use marriage to control your spouse then you have an abusive relationship.

I agree.

I can speak to this as a married person. I am married because it is a level of lifelong commit. Not a disposable temporary relationship. In the end a lot of poly (no offence to anyone) is fluid and sometimes even surface level, which is fine ftr. Each relationship can have its own level of involvement. I "marry" because its not surface level.

My intention once I get my shit together is to marry A, in my case. In our own way with a commit ceremony.
Its doesn't mean we control or.. that we manipulate each other.. it means that we know we love each other for the longest haul possible.

 

[Ariakas]

Wait didn't I just answer this in another thread

Poly in my neighbourhood comes with a temporary timeline, sometimes very fluid. Marriage in theory offers a level of commit from both parties. I have only ever wanted to Marry 2 people.. ever. Both are in my life today. Otherwise I fully recognize most other relationships come and go with the tide.

 

[dingedheart]

Wow. Okay, we are all allowed to express our personal opinions based on our experiences, good and bad. I'm sorry your experience with marriage went so badly.

I thought the question was of a hypothetical nature. And I was thinking of young unmarried people who identify as poly.

My ex h got a lot from me before we divorced. I gave him my youth.

You mean time only travels on one side ?? He had no youth ?

I gave him tons of sex.

Gave or shared ? Couldn’t he make the argument he gave you tons of sex ?

Despite being poly at heart and pansexual, I never cheated. I gave him three beautiful intelligent children. I cooked him/our family a homecooked dinner every night, 365 days a year, for over 30 years. (Let that sink in...) I packed his lunches most of that time too, with food he requested. I did ALL his laundry, collected it off the floor where he dropped it, washed and dried it and put it away. I did all the children's laundry until they could do their own. I was totally responsible for cleaning the house. I even shopped for his clothes! I was a SAHM when the kids were young. I breastfed and homeschooled our children, but eventually I got part time jobs too.

Breastfeeding is a gift to your ex husband ?? This list is all things you gave into him on ? I would have drew the line on his clothes shopping ?

I taxied the kids to all their appointments. He got to come home at the end of a long hard day and commute, to his nice fresh whole foods nutritious balanced dinner, which cost a fraction of what takeout or frozen crap would have cost. When the kids were young, I held them off him when he got home until he'd eaten dinner, so he could eat in peace. I also held them off him in the morning so he could have coffee and breakfast and shower and dress before work in peace. (I did not get to do those things; I had to be taking care of the kids' breakfasts, dressing them, etc.) I hired a company to mow our lawn. I did all the other gardening and yard work myself. Once our oldest was 12, she and I did all the home maintenance. We got real good with a screwdriver, drill and plumbing tools. I planned and threw ALL of the birthday parties and bought and wrapped the gifts. I made the holidays happen (shopping for gifts and food, wrapping the gifts, decorating the Xmas tree, cooking, baking, entertaining guests). I packed the kids' bags for trips to see his extended family. I sent birthday cards to his parents. At some point I began to do my own auto maintenance. I paid the bills with the money he earned.

100% can see why you ended up divorcing his ass.

He also contributed to our home because we were on his insurance (as Evie said), and he was a great breadwinner, too. We agreed we'd both work, saving my income, until the babies came. He did help with the kids, changed diapers, helped with bedtime routines sometimes, played with them and read to them. I am not saying I did all the work. But he definitely got a lot out of being legally tied to me. And he knew why I had to leave him in the end. He took responsibility for not treating me well, taking me for granted, being passive aggressive, jealous when he didn't need to be, etc. He gladly gave over half OUR assets to me.

And rightly so.

 

[dingedheart]

In New Zealand we have common law marriage:

I don’t know anything about the New Zealand court system but there are states here in the US that have common law marriage too. But I think it would be really hard if not impossible ( maybe even laughable) to try to drag one of your poly partners into court and claim a common law marriage to get a paycheck.

Let’s play a hypothetical on that thought : Would another partner be jealous or grateful they weren’t being dragged into court to be thought of as a legal husband ?. Here’s where the google calendar might actual work against / fuck you

 

[Magdlyn]

I thought the question was of a hypothetical nature. And I was thinking of young unmarried people who identify as poly.

Your response seemed to come from the heart, and very emotionally so, what with the definitive way you said it, black and white, ALL CAPS:

In the USA for a man it makes zero sense to be married. IT GETS YOU NOTHING.

You mean time only travels on one side?? He had no youth?

You asserted you GOT NOTHING from marriage. I am listing the things I gave to my marriage.

Gave or shared? Couldn’t he make the argument he gave you tons of sex?

I didn't complain about the sex. It was a benefit of our marriage. You claimed there were none.

Breastfeeding is a gift to your ex husband??

It was something I did for the health and peace and finances of our family.

This list is all things you gave into him on?

I did what I felt was my duty as a mother and wife. He worked long hours so I was responsible for almost everything in the home. He was also old school to an extent and there were things he didn't seem to want to do because of traditional gender roles.

I would have drew the line on his clothes shopping?

Okay.

100% can see why you ended up divorcing his ass.
And rightly so.

 

[Inaniel]

I believe marriage can serve similar personal and emotional purposes for polyamorous people as it does for monogamous people.

Monogamy hasn't always been the norm in marriage. This isn’t an argument for polygamy; rather, it's to highlight that marriage has evolved over generations and is currently a legally enforced monogamous institution in most places.

If you strip away the forced monogamy and set aside the legal benefits for a moment, marriage is essentially a ceremony, a public proclamation of love, and a commitment. These romantic desires aren’t exclusive to monogamous people. I believe we would see groups of people marrying if it were legally permissible.

So, I understand the emotional reasoning behind it. And polyamory itself doesn’t inherently dismantle the marriage "fairy tale."

However, there are rational reasons to caution unmarried poly couples from entering a legally enforced monogamous institution. Primarily because it creates a legal hierarchy between two people. This hierarchy can be disregarded in practice, but it still exists in reality and in the legal principles of the institution. Additionally, bigamy laws prevent you from marrying someone else while you're still married, which limits your autonomy to express love in the same way unless you divorce first.

I also believe poly marriage can disadvantage men unfairly. Marriage often decreases a man’s perceived sexual value in the dating market. Poly relationships may already have severe sexual power imbalances. Many one-sided poly relationships involve married couples where the man can seek other lovers but struggles to find anyone.

Marriage can also act as an additional barrier to leaving a relationship. I often see people trying to save a marriage through polyamory and think to myself: divorce first, then consider polyamory. Address what's not working (the marriage), and then see if you can transition into a new dynamic together.

If I were advising a young man who is poly dating, I would generally advise against marriage. Because we haven't sufficiently redefined traditional male roles in relationships, I think the disadvantages of marriage for poly men outweighs any advantage in a majority of cases.

 

[Trying2]

I see marriage as a legal contract between two people and the state. It's not about love or commitment. You can choose to add those things to your relationship if you choose but they are not required. The legal contract, depending on where you live, gives all legal rights to assets, inheritance, responsibility for children, credit, debt, taxes, etc.

You can love and make a lifetime commitment to someone without involving a legal contract. I did this with my life partner and we did some legal contracts that we wanted, which can be revoked simply by tearing it up and notifying that it's no longer valid.

I personally see no value in legal marriage, just headaches. The fact that people get married without a prenup "in the name of love" blows my mind. Marriage isn't about love...its a legal contract. If more people consulted lawyers before signing legal contracts, they would learn the importance of negotiating that contract. But marriage licenses don't even include the contract to read to know what you are getting into.

If I ever did get a legal marriage you bet I would have a prenup that determines how things would be handled in the case of a dissolution. I'm not going to leave it up to the state and courts to decide how it ends.

"I see marriage as a legal contract between two people and the state. It's not about love or commitment. You can choose to add those things to your relationship if you choose but they are not required. "

Yes, technically marriage is a legal contract between two people. But most make a vow(spiritual/emotional)to each other that has nothing to do with the legal aspects of partnered relationships regardless of where you live and the laws governing such commitments.

Could it be in polyamory, marriage acts as your "safety valve" or "safe haven", something to be relied upon when everything else is going wrong?

When you are secure in life and have much romantic/sexual attention from multiple people and more wishing to come on board, marriage may seem constraining or unnecessary. But how about if and when things go the other way? Say serious health issues or a disfiguring car accident, something really big. Is that when people fall back on the safety(possibly perceived) of marriage?

Or can it be the emotional effort and work required to nourish multiple romantic/sexual relationships runs its course and people wish to put there time and energy into other things in life?

Will your poly lovers be there in the long run for you if and when things take a turn for the worse? None of us know till we are there. I guess this is where marriage might provide some comfort - hoping that your spouse will not leave when the going gets tough.